Ali Nakhjavani Speaks on the Covenant (Part 3)

Here is the third and last part of the talk by Dr. Ali Nakhjavani on the Covenant, a question and answer session with the audience:

If you have not watched from the beginning, Part One and Part Two.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    “Shoghi Effendi himself–in his will–”

    Oops. Slipped. Not supposed to talk about Shoghi Effendi’s will before the believers. Ooh. I hope they didn’t notice.
    :-)

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    “Shoghi Effendi himself–in his will–”

    Oops. Slipped. Not supposed to talk about Shoghi Effendi’s will before the believers. Ooh. I hope they didn’t notice.
    :-)

  • Harlan Lang

    Very inspiring and very clear. You can’t get much clearer. It’s always refreshing to be reminded that Covenant Breaking is a way of cleansing the Faith. These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.

  • Harlan Lang

    Very inspiring and very clear. You can’t get much clearer. It’s always refreshing to be reminded that Covenant Breaking is a way of cleansing the Faith. These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Very inspiring and very clear. You can’t get much clearer. It’s always refreshing to be reminded that Covenant Breaking is a way of cleansing the Faith. These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.[/quote]

    So true. With an omnipotent God, one cannot exactly go around claiming credit for one’s own wickedness. To do so would clearly be blasphemous. There is no power but God.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Very inspiring and very clear. You can’t get much clearer. It’s always refreshing to be reminded that Covenant Breaking is a way of cleansing the Faith. These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.[/quote]

    So true. With an omnipotent God, one cannot exactly go around claiming credit for one’s own wickedness. To do so would clearly be blasphemous. There is no power but God.

  • Pingback: Did Baha’u’llah break Babi law by marrying three wives? | Dervish

  • Werdna the Wizard

    “Humbug is an astonishingly wide-spread phenomenon — in fact almost universal.” P.T. Barnum

  • Werdna the Wizard

    “Humbug is an astonishingly wide-spread phenomenon — in fact almost universal.” P.T. Barnum

  • Grover

    [quote post="528"]So true. With an omnipotent God, one cannot exactly go around claiming credit for one’s own wickedness. To do so would clearly be blasphemous. There is no power but God.[/quote]

    Sinners rejoice! We’re not responsible! So much for judgement day in heaven lol!

  • Grover

    [quote post="528"]So true. With an omnipotent God, one cannot exactly go around claiming credit for one’s own wickedness. To do so would clearly be blasphemous. There is no power but God.[/quote]

    Sinners rejoice! We’re not responsible! So much for judgement day in heaven lol!

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Now hang on a minute there pardner! You stiyl gonna burn; you jeust ainta blame, thas all!

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Now hang on a minute there pardner! You stiyl gonna burn; you jeust ainta blame, thas all!

  • Brendan Cook

    A ninety-minute talk with forty-five minutes for questions and answers! This Mr. Nakjavani must be one heck of a speaker to hold his audience that long. Maybe it seems more exciting when you’re there in person. Certainly, it would be hard to sneak out without attracting attention.

  • Brendan Cook

    A ninety-minute talk with forty-five minutes for questions and answers! This Mr. Nakjavani must be one heck of a speaker to hold his audience that long. Maybe it seems more exciting when you’re there in person. Certainly, it would be hard to sneak out without attracting attention.

  • Craig Parke

    I have always liked Mr. Nakhjavani. But the tragedy of the Baha’i Faith is the same tragedy of all of the Abrahamic Religions that went before it. You cannot take an honest spirituality in human beings and put in into an organization and expect it to survive. Many thoughtful and earnest people, including myself, joined the Baha’i Faith and served many long decades hoping for something better in the long tortured history of organized religion. Alas, it became the same old, same old. Witch hunts over orthodoxy. Looking for enemies under every rock and bush. Every harebrained dismal dysfunctional irrational human failure a “Divine Mystery.” It just all ain’t going to fly in the New World Age. The thoughtful mass communication of the Internet IS the Covenant of Baha’u’llah now. Thinking cannot be stopped anywhere on Earth. These guys are all going to have to find something else to do in life. I suggest learning Adobe Flex 3. It is the next big thing.

    Everyone keep posting.

  • Craig Parke

    I have always liked Mr. Nakhjavani. But the tragedy of the Baha’i Faith is the same tragedy of all of the Abrahamic Religions that went before it. You cannot take an honest spirituality in human beings and put in into an organization and expect it to survive. Many thoughtful and earnest people, including myself, joined the Baha’i Faith and served many long decades hoping for something better in the long tortured history of organized religion. Alas, it became the same old, same old. Witch hunts over orthodoxy. Looking for enemies under every rock and bush. Every harebrained dismal dysfunctional irrational human failure a “Divine Mystery.” It just all ain’t going to fly in the New World Age. The thoughtful mass communication of the Internet IS the Covenant of Baha’u’llah now. Thinking cannot be stopped anywhere on Earth. These guys are all going to have to find something else to do in life. I suggest learning Adobe Flex 3. It is the next big thing.

    Everyone keep posting.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""][...] I suggest learning Adobe Flex 3. It is the next big thing.d [...][/quote]

    *Gasp* Craig! You must not say things like that! It hasn’t been a thousand years yet!! ;-)

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""][...] I suggest learning Adobe Flex 3. It is the next big thing.d [...][/quote]

    *Gasp* Craig! You must not say things like that! It hasn’t been a thousand years yet!! ;-)

  • ep

    LAAAAWWWWD HAVE MERCY. Horrendous stuff. Glad to be an XL-ex-bahai.

    I skipped through #3, and saw no evidence in it that the bahai “leadership” elites have any understanding of how medieval their position is, or how to break the current static nature of the bahai system so that the religion becomes dynamic, evolutionary, relevant, just, fair, balanced, meaningful, and so forth.

    Ali Nakhjavani seems like a nice man who is smart, but is stuck in a paradigm that contains very little self-awareness.

    In other words, per-modern, ethereal spirituality, divorced from the sullied realities that the unenlightened “non-bahai” peons of the world live with.

    Obsessed with the minutea of legalisms.

    Superficial, instrumentalized spirituality/mysticism.

    (All the stuff that the babai/bahai religions were originally “opposed to”.)

    bahai religion is not need to attain transcendence, to understand evolution, or to participate in the building of a better social, cultural, economic or political world.

    there are many other groups that do any of those things much better, without the bizzare trapping of pre-modern “covenental” theology (which is, in jungian-archetypal terms, nothing other than “universalized tribalism” based on a myth of “god’s chosen people”).

    [quote comment=""][...] those who have an interest in Baha’i shari`a.  I’ve been watching UHJ member Ali Nakhjavani on “the Covenant” up at Baha’i Rants. One of the questions he fielded was why did [...][/quote]

  • ep

    LAAAAWWWWD HAVE MERCY. Horrendous stuff. Glad to be an XL-ex-bahai.

    I skipped through #3, and saw no evidence in it that the bahai “leadership” elites have any understanding of how medieval their position is, or how to break the current static nature of the bahai system so that the religion becomes dynamic, evolutionary, relevant, just, fair, balanced, meaningful, and so forth.

    Ali Nakhjavani seems like a nice man who is smart, but is stuck in a paradigm that contains very little self-awareness.

    In other words, per-modern, ethereal spirituality, divorced from the sullied realities that the unenlightened “non-bahai” peons of the world live with.

    Obsessed with the minutea of legalisms.

    Superficial, instrumentalized spirituality/mysticism.

    (All the stuff that the babai/bahai religions were originally “opposed to”.)

    bahai religion is not need to attain transcendence, to understand evolution, or to participate in the building of a better social, cultural, economic or political world.

    there are many other groups that do any of those things much better, without the bizzare trapping of pre-modern “covenental” theology (which is, in jungian-archetypal terms, nothing other than “universalized tribalism” based on a myth of “god’s chosen people”).

    [quote comment=""][...] those who have an interest in Baha’i shari`a.  I’ve been watching UHJ member Ali Nakhjavani on “the Covenant” up at Baha’i Rants. One of the questions he fielded was why did [...][/quote]

  • Craig Parke

    Meanwhile, the New World Age moves on at high broadband throughput doe people who can pay their cable bill…

    http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/and2disk.jpg

    The U.S. is facing one of the most important elections since 1860, 1932, and 1960. Until the Baha’i World State can provide me with really, really, really good medical insurance, I think thinking about these issues IS important.

    Does anyone know if there is a Ruhi Book on “Do-It-Yourself Medical Procedures Without Anesthetic”?

    Copy and paste this list into a Notepad file and get busy actually thinking with your God given brains and discussing ideas vital to the ACTUAL future of the United States if you are a citizen.

    The rest of you out there in the world are also greatly affected by what happens here. You can start PRAYING that rational Americans will step up to the plate.

    Does anyone know what the UHJ’s position is on the Lehman Brothers collapse or the Bear-Sterns, Fannie, Freddy, AIG, and Trillion Dollar Plan bail out? Does the Faith have the money to cover this for the U.S. since, well, we are spending 10 billion a month so, uh, er, Baha’is can eventually step over the bodies of American soldiers and go on “full” Pilgrimage in Iraq.

    Get busy people:

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  • Craig Parke

    Meanwhile, the New World Age moves on at high broadband throughput doe people who can pay their cable bill…

    http://www.solstation.com/x-objects/and2disk.jpg

    The U.S. is facing one of the most important elections since 1860, 1932, and 1960. Until the Baha’i World State can provide me with really, really, really good medical insurance, I think thinking about these issues IS important.

    Does anyone know if there is a Ruhi Book on “Do-It-Yourself Medical Procedures Without Anesthetic”?

    Copy and paste this list into a Notepad file and get busy actually thinking with your God given brains and discussing ideas vital to the ACTUAL future of the United States if you are a citizen.

    The rest of you out there in the world are also greatly affected by what happens here. You can start PRAYING that rational Americans will step up to the plate.

    Does anyone know what the UHJ’s position is on the Lehman Brothers collapse or the Bear-Sterns, Fannie, Freddy, AIG, and Trillion Dollar Plan bail out? Does the Faith have the money to cover this for the U.S. since, well, we are spending 10 billion a month so, uh, er, Baha’is can eventually step over the bodies of American soldiers and go on “full” Pilgrimage in Iraq.

    Get busy people:

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  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="56550"][quote comment=""][...] I suggest learning Adobe Flex 3. It is the next big thing.d [...][/quote]

    Dan Jensen WROTE:

    *Gasp* Craig! You must not say things like that! It hasn’t been a thousand years yet!! ;-)[/quote]

    Carrying out the World Age now is all in the electronic runes. “Think globally. Act locally.” Or more to the point “Think. Act.” That is no longer the Baha’i Paradigm. It is more “Think you are thinking. Think you are acting.”

    They are going door to door while hundreds of millions of people are on-line hour after hour every single day. DUH!

    Adobe Flex 3 is really, really good! There will be lots of new jobs with it. It is a good skill for all of the lifetime incumbent professional cadre of the Baha’i Faith when they find themselves and their families having to get a real job. As this is a real skill rather than a paper skill, it will give them a leg up over
    the unemployed Lehman Brother Investment Bankers in line trying to get jobs.

    How does that tune go?

    “I used to run railroads that ran on time…brother can you spare a dime?”

    What a planet!

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="56550"][quote comment=""][...] I suggest learning Adobe Flex 3. It is the next big thing.d [...][/quote]

    Dan Jensen WROTE:

    *Gasp* Craig! You must not say things like that! It hasn’t been a thousand years yet!! ;-)[/quote]

    Carrying out the World Age now is all in the electronic runes. “Think globally. Act locally.” Or more to the point “Think. Act.” That is no longer the Baha’i Paradigm. It is more “Think you are thinking. Think you are acting.”

    They are going door to door while hundreds of millions of people are on-line hour after hour every single day. DUH!

    Adobe Flex 3 is really, really good! There will be lots of new jobs with it. It is a good skill for all of the lifetime incumbent professional cadre of the Baha’i Faith when they find themselves and their families having to get a real job. As this is a real skill rather than a paper skill, it will give them a leg up over
    the unemployed Lehman Brother Investment Bankers in line trying to get jobs.

    How does that tune go?

    “I used to run railroads that ran on time…brother can you spare a dime?”

    What a planet!

  • Grover

    You know the Covenant is bloody simple really. Its all about trying to make sure there is no fuss over who is in charge after the head honcho dies. But call me a spiritual heathen or whatever, why on earth is there all this inflation in the Faith of what should be quite a simple concept? E.g “The Power of the Covenant”, “The most mighty unifying force”, “the greatest mystery”. And in my community you get these know-it-alls who run around with superior expressions on their faces saying “The Covenant is most profound, no one is really deepened in it, it takes years, and a deep spirituality to understand” etc etc. What are they really saying? The rest of us aren’t indoctrinated enough because we’ve still got some independence of thought? Or are they trying to have some excuse for their own lack of obedience?

  • Grover

    You know the Covenant is bloody simple really. Its all about trying to make sure there is no fuss over who is in charge after the head honcho dies. But call me a spiritual heathen or whatever, why on earth is there all this inflation in the Faith of what should be quite a simple concept? E.g “The Power of the Covenant”, “The most mighty unifying force”, “the greatest mystery”. And in my community you get these know-it-alls who run around with superior expressions on their faces saying “The Covenant is most profound, no one is really deepened in it, it takes years, and a deep spirituality to understand” etc etc. What are they really saying? The rest of us aren’t indoctrinated enough because we’ve still got some independence of thought? Or are they trying to have some excuse for their own lack of obedience?

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment="Well said! Too bad that's not in the Aqdas."][...] You know the Covenant is bloody simple really. Its all about trying to make sure there is no fuss over who is in charge after the head honcho dies. [...][/quote]

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment="Well said! Too bad that's not in the Aqdas."][...] You know the Covenant is bloody simple really. Its all about trying to make sure there is no fuss over who is in charge after the head honcho dies. [...][/quote]

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [Well I guess that quote "comment" attribute isn't what I thought it might be.]

    I just wanted to say “Well said, Grover!” Your covenant sounds more like a Sunni Muslim covenant than what I’ve read in the Baha’i writings, but I like it!

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [Well I guess that quote "comment" attribute isn't what I thought it might be.]

    I just wanted to say “Well said, Grover!” Your covenant sounds more like a Sunni Muslim covenant than what I’ve read in the Baha’i writings, but I like it!

  • Larry Rowe

    Howdy Grover, Dan, Craig and all,

    Just what is the Baha’i Covenant exactly and how is it conveyed?

    If it is conveyed through the Bab’s W&T, Baha’u’llah’s W&T and Shoghi’s W&T (oops forgot there isn’t such a thing) then it is quite obvious that this supposed W&T is without substance.

    How so? The Bab’s W&T appointed Baha’u’llah brother Azal as the inheritor of his Covenant. Did Baha’u”lah follow or respect the Bab’s Covenant? Hope.

    Baha’u’llah Covenat as expressed in his own W&T appointed Abdu’l-Baha’s brother Muhammad to be the inheritor of his Covenant after Abdu’l-Baha’. Did this occur? Nope. Muhammad was written out of Baha’u’llah’s W&T; on whose authority I’m not sure. Is there any higher authority in Baha’i than Baha’u’llah’s own word?

    Abdu’l-Baha’s Covenant as expressed in his W&T clearly stated that there was to be a living Guardian as head for life of any future Universal House of Justice. Has this situation ever existed. Nope.

    Then there is Ruhiyyih Khanum’s open admittance that the Hands had no authority to take control over the Baha’i faith:

    How to assume the reins of authority, with no document to support us, other than the general theological statements about the Hands?

    (Custodians, Ministry of the Custodians, p. 9)

    So what exactly is this supposed Covenant? Is it a clear and legitimate passing of lineage and authority? Nope. Nothing clear or legitimate about it.

    Interesting that Nakhjavani let slip that Shoghi actually left a W&T. Wonder what it contained, wonder why the Hands keep it too themselves.

    Cheers

    Larry Rowe

  • Larry Rowe

    Howdy Grover, Dan, Craig and all,

    Just what is the Baha’i Covenant exactly and how is it conveyed?

    If it is conveyed through the Bab’s W&T, Baha’u’llah’s W&T and Shoghi’s W&T (oops forgot there isn’t such a thing) then it is quite obvious that this supposed W&T is without substance.

    How so? The Bab’s W&T appointed Baha’u’llah brother Azal as the inheritor of his Covenant. Did Baha’u”lah follow or respect the Bab’s Covenant? Hope.

    Baha’u’llah Covenat as expressed in his own W&T appointed Abdu’l-Baha’s brother Muhammad to be the inheritor of his Covenant after Abdu’l-Baha’. Did this occur? Nope. Muhammad was written out of Baha’u’llah’s W&T; on whose authority I’m not sure. Is there any higher authority in Baha’i than Baha’u’llah’s own word?

    Abdu’l-Baha’s Covenant as expressed in his W&T clearly stated that there was to be a living Guardian as head for life of any future Universal House of Justice. Has this situation ever existed. Nope.

    Then there is Ruhiyyih Khanum’s open admittance that the Hands had no authority to take control over the Baha’i faith:

    How to assume the reins of authority, with no document to support us, other than the general theological statements about the Hands?

    (Custodians, Ministry of the Custodians, p. 9)

    So what exactly is this supposed Covenant? Is it a clear and legitimate passing of lineage and authority? Nope. Nothing clear or legitimate about it.

    Interesting that Nakhjavani let slip that Shoghi actually left a W&T. Wonder what it contained, wonder why the Hands keep it too themselves.

    Cheers

    Larry Rowe

  • Craig Parke

    I am watching Barney Frank on Lou Dobbs. Since the U.S. is the “Cradle of the Administrative Order”, what is the position of the UHJ on “credit swaps” among now failing investment banks and how that influences derivatives held by hedge funds? Does anyone know? These guys are infallible and freed from all error. I need guidance? Has Peter Khan spoken on this in any of his endless talks? Does anyone know? We in the U.S. have to have this solved by Monday morning. Help!

  • Craig Parke

    I am watching Barney Frank on Lou Dobbs. Since the U.S. is the “Cradle of the Administrative Order”, what is the position of the UHJ on “credit swaps” among now failing investment banks and how that influences derivatives held by hedge funds? Does anyone know? These guys are infallible and freed from all error. I need guidance? Has Peter Khan spoken on this in any of his endless talks? Does anyone know? We in the U.S. have to have this solved by Monday morning. Help!

  • Grover

    Thanks Dan :)

    Hey Larry, good points! Sorry to sound like an apologist…

    Baha’u’llah = “messenger of God” to those who believe so he can do what he likes I suppose, irrespective of what the Bab said.

    Re Abdu’l-Baha, was it his right to choose a successor or let his half brother take over? Its hard to say, Baha’u’llah’s W&T was vague on Abdu’l-Baha’s responsibilities etc apart from that everyone had to turn towards him after Baha’u’llah had died. If his half brother was being a prat, would it have been sensible to have him as the head of the Faith? Probably not.

    The interesting thing about all this was how Baha’u’llah never really mentioned anything about the Covenant apart from how various people broke their covenant with God and did all kinds of nasty things to the Baha’is. It was ‘Abdu’l-Baha who set the basis for the Covenant and Covenant Breaking (mainly due to the disputes I suppose within his family and the relatives) and I presume Shoghi Effendi who set the basis for the concept of infallibility. So what seems to be a central tenant of the Faith never really came from Baha’u’llah but from ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. All Baha’u’llah said in his W&T was to follow ‘Abdu’l-Baha and in another place that whoever went against ‘Abdu’l-Baha went against God. Did that make ‘Abdu’l-Baha infallible? And was Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice really infallible or was it just a concept encouraged to prevent people arguing too much with whatever was decided by the powers-that-be?

  • Grover

    Thanks Dan :)

    Hey Larry, good points! Sorry to sound like an apologist…

    Baha’u’llah = “messenger of God” to those who believe so he can do what he likes I suppose, irrespective of what the Bab said.

    Re Abdu’l-Baha, was it his right to choose a successor or let his half brother take over? Its hard to say, Baha’u’llah’s W&T was vague on Abdu’l-Baha’s responsibilities etc apart from that everyone had to turn towards him after Baha’u’llah had died. If his half brother was being a prat, would it have been sensible to have him as the head of the Faith? Probably not.

    The interesting thing about all this was how Baha’u’llah never really mentioned anything about the Covenant apart from how various people broke their covenant with God and did all kinds of nasty things to the Baha’is. It was ‘Abdu’l-Baha who set the basis for the Covenant and Covenant Breaking (mainly due to the disputes I suppose within his family and the relatives) and I presume Shoghi Effendi who set the basis for the concept of infallibility. So what seems to be a central tenant of the Faith never really came from Baha’u’llah but from ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. All Baha’u’llah said in his W&T was to follow ‘Abdu’l-Baha and in another place that whoever went against ‘Abdu’l-Baha went against God. Did that make ‘Abdu’l-Baha infallible? And was Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice really infallible or was it just a concept encouraged to prevent people arguing too much with whatever was decided by the powers-that-be?

  • http://www.wahidazal.com Wahid Azal

    Some of you who follow TRB will note that almost 5 years ago I broached the issue of the actual existence of a will and testament of Shoghi Effendi and a successor he had most probably nominated in that document (not Remey). Whether this was an old man’s slip-up or something else, the fact is that among some circles who at one time worked within the bureaucracy proximate to the upper levels of the Haifan politburo, it has been an open secret that some sort of testamentary document belonging to SE does in fact exist – or at least *did* exist in an original as of November 1957. I will leave to your speculations as what has become of this document. But this is what I said today to someone else regarding it,

    “The will and testament of SE probably had nominated a successor from among one of the remaining Afnans. At the time the rivalry between his wife and all elements of SE’s extended family was pretty intense. The Montreal socialite elite/NYC/London Axis take-over of the Bahaim org. inc. could never be fully consummated if a family member was at the helm, since more than likely this successor would’ve re-organized the power structures and sidelined several of the key players in it, including Remey. One of Ruhiyyeh Maxwell’s primary allies in the coup of 1957 was Bora Kavelin, a super-wealthy NYC Jew with deep connections to the Wall Street mafia (who themselves in turn had bankrolled Israel in its first few years of existence). Kavelin became one of the charter members of the uhj in 1963. If a member of Shoghi Effendi’s family had taken the reigns, perhaps the intimate relationship shared between this organization, Israel and the American Jewish lobby – and the triangular relationship between this estate, the British establishment and global financial elites – would not be all that cozy or lucrative.

    Despite the confirmation a few years ago by one of my contacts in Israel that this thing does exist, there is no doubt in my mind that SE had a w&t. One day eventually this thing will be released to the public, and then the shit will really hit the fan. Maybe we’re not that far away from such a day. With Wallstreet crashing and the Jewish-British-American financial empire in the initial crumbling stages, the biggest peripheral losers will be these guys. When that happens, expect a lot more than the will and testament of SE to come to public attention.

    Just pray – and pray hard – Obama wins.”

    I also draw your attention to the following blog,
    http://jewbahais.blogspot.com/

    And would point out that there is no coincidence in the timing of the global financial meltdown and the present clamoring of an American (“Ashkenazi”) Jewish-Bahaim contingency for the lifting of the ban on proselytizing Jews in “Israel”. Some of you who actually visited Haifa-Disney would recall that for years (esp. in the 80s) the justification for the purchase of the land for the construction of a Mashriq’ul-Adhkar in Israel was tied to the *eventual* conversion of Israeli Jews to Bahaism and the transformation of the “Jewish state” into a “Bahai one.” People should dismiss this stuff as “conspiracy theory” and “fantasy” at their peril – like 911 and its aftermath!

    W

  • http://www.wahidazal.com Wahid Azal

    Some of you who follow TRB will note that almost 5 years ago I broached the issue of the actual existence of a will and testament of Shoghi Effendi and a successor he had most probably nominated in that document (not Remey). Whether this was an old man’s slip-up or something else, the fact is that among some circles who at one time worked within the bureaucracy proximate to the upper levels of the Haifan politburo, it has been an open secret that some sort of testamentary document belonging to SE does in fact exist – or at least *did* exist in an original as of November 1957. I will leave to your speculations as what has become of this document. But this is what I said today to someone else regarding it,

    “The will and testament of SE probably had nominated a successor from among one of the remaining Afnans. At the time the rivalry between his wife and all elements of SE’s extended family was pretty intense. The Montreal socialite elite/NYC/London Axis take-over of the Bahaim org. inc. could never be fully consummated if a family member was at the helm, since more than likely this successor would’ve re-organized the power structures and sidelined several of the key players in it, including Remey. One of Ruhiyyeh Maxwell’s primary allies in the coup of 1957 was Bora Kavelin, a super-wealthy NYC Jew with deep connections to the Wall Street mafia (who themselves in turn had bankrolled Israel in its first few years of existence). Kavelin became one of the charter members of the uhj in 1963. If a member of Shoghi Effendi’s family had taken the reigns, perhaps the intimate relationship shared between this organization, Israel and the American Jewish lobby – and the triangular relationship between this estate, the British establishment and global financial elites – would not be all that cozy or lucrative.

    Despite the confirmation a few years ago by one of my contacts in Israel that this thing does exist, there is no doubt in my mind that SE had a w&t. One day eventually this thing will be released to the public, and then the shit will really hit the fan. Maybe we’re not that far away from such a day. With Wallstreet crashing and the Jewish-British-American financial empire in the initial crumbling stages, the biggest peripheral losers will be these guys. When that happens, expect a lot more than the will and testament of SE to come to public attention.

    Just pray – and pray hard – Obama wins.”

    I also draw your attention to the following blog,
    http://jewbahais.blogspot.com/

    And would point out that there is no coincidence in the timing of the global financial meltdown and the present clamoring of an American (“Ashkenazi”) Jewish-Bahaim contingency for the lifting of the ban on proselytizing Jews in “Israel”. Some of you who actually visited Haifa-Disney would recall that for years (esp. in the 80s) the justification for the purchase of the land for the construction of a Mashriq’ul-Adhkar in Israel was tied to the *eventual* conversion of Israeli Jews to Bahaism and the transformation of the “Jewish state” into a “Bahai one.” People should dismiss this stuff as “conspiracy theory” and “fantasy” at their peril – like 911 and its aftermath!

    W

  • ep

    Craig,

    Please look up what Ron Paul is saying about the economic crisis. And let me know what you think.

    I do not understand why thousands of bankers and scammers aren’t being prosecuted for fraud, financial malfeasance, ripping off the working people of the USA (and investors both here and from elsewhere), etc., and being thrown in prison.

    “Spiritual solution to economic problems”. hehehe. right.

    [quote comment="56723"]I am watching Barney Frank on Lou Dobbs. [/quote]

  • ep

    Craig,

    Please look up what Ron Paul is saying about the economic crisis. And let me know what you think.

    I do not understand why thousands of bankers and scammers aren’t being prosecuted for fraud, financial malfeasance, ripping off the working people of the USA (and investors both here and from elsewhere), etc., and being thrown in prison.

    “Spiritual solution to economic problems”. hehehe. right.

    [quote comment="56723"]I am watching Barney Frank on Lou Dobbs. [/quote]

  • ep

    Nima,

    Is that you? :)

    In any case, thanks for the fascinating material!

    Considering how horribly wrong abdu’l-baha’s attempt to implant bahai in the west has gone, it makes sense that some sort of corrupt power grab was made behind the scenes in the late 50 and 60s.

    regards,
    ep

    [quote comment="56741"]Some of you who follow TRB will note that almost 5 years ago I broached the issue of the actual existence of a will and testament of Shoghi Effendi and a successor he had most probably nominated in that document (not Remey).

    W[/quote]

  • ep

    Nima,

    Is that you? :)

    In any case, thanks for the fascinating material!

    Considering how horribly wrong abdu’l-baha’s attempt to implant bahai in the west has gone, it makes sense that some sort of corrupt power grab was made behind the scenes in the late 50 and 60s.

    regards,
    ep

    [quote comment="56741"]Some of you who follow TRB will note that almost 5 years ago I broached the issue of the actual existence of a will and testament of Shoghi Effendi and a successor he had most probably nominated in that document (not Remey).

    W[/quote]

  • http://www.wahidazal.com Wahid Azal

    The name is WAHID.

    [quote comment=""][...] I do not understand why thousands of bankers and scammers aren’t being prosecuted for fraud, financial malfeasance, ripping off the working people of the USA (and investors both here and from elsewhere), etc., and being thrown in prison.[...][/quote]

    Because this Wall Street meltdown is obviously a social engineered global economic demolition job in order to implement greater monetary and banking amalgamations, and thus total global fiscal controls via a longterm amalgamated, centralized system. Who is behind it? The very same people who hold the portfolios to these melted down Wallstreet companies.

    As for greater international fiscal controls, Gordon Brown let the cat out of the bag:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/sep/25/gordonbrown.marketturmoil

    Here is your New World Order (= Annuit Coeptis) in the making in *real time*. With the dollar shrinking by the day as a result, expect the Amero and the North American Union to be the hot topic under the next US administration – and probably in the stages of implementation by the middle of the next administration’s term. America’s sovereignty is finished, no thanks to the people you all put into office in 2000!

    Abbas Effendi’s effort to implant his father’s manufactured creed in the West was also by design. It is remarkable that British and Canadian establishmentarian socialites bankrolled that enterprise throughout and were ultimately responsible for diffusing it. I am thinking of the Lady Blomfields and similar. As such the diffusion of Bahaism in the West is very much a product of Western elite social networks and social engineering, larger colonialist endeavors and agendas, appropriating an ideology originating in the East to their own ends – with people such as Abbas Effendi acting in the role of convenient accomplices to such end. If Shoghi Effendi had somehow run afoul of certain elements of this elite towards the end of his life, which is the rumor, it is only natural that they would do him in and go for total control of the enterprise. After all they had his pretty much estranged Canadian well-to-do, Montreal socialite pedigree “wife” to help them do him and then cover up the act (i.e. no autopsy; hastily implemented funeral arrangements).

    W

    p.s. BTW contrary to an earlier expressed speculation of yours put up here in explaining things to that widely recognized fraud Lobo Siete Truenos aka Francis de la Maza – a speculation which I am sure came from either Susan Maneck and Terry Culhane -, I did not join a Sufi commune for a whole year. I was initiated into a Qadiri-Safialishahi sub-branch of the Iranian Nimatullahi Sufi Order in 1993 and between 1997-99 I was the Order’s American representative holding an ‘ijaza as a bona fide shaykh of the lineage. FYI

  • http://www.wahidazal.com Wahid Azal

    The name is WAHID.

    [quote comment=""][...] I do not understand why thousands of bankers and scammers aren’t being prosecuted for fraud, financial malfeasance, ripping off the working people of the USA (and investors both here and from elsewhere), etc., and being thrown in prison.[...][/quote]

    Because this Wall Street meltdown is obviously a social engineered global economic demolition job in order to implement greater monetary and banking amalgamations, and thus total global fiscal controls via a longterm amalgamated, centralized system. Who is behind it? The very same people who hold the portfolios to these melted down Wallstreet companies.

    As for greater international fiscal controls, Gordon Brown let the cat out of the bag:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/sep/25/gordonbrown.marketturmoil

    Here is your New World Order (= Annuit Coeptis) in the making in *real time*. With the dollar shrinking by the day as a result, expect the Amero and the North American Union to be the hot topic under the next US administration – and probably in the stages of implementation by the middle of the next administration’s term. America’s sovereignty is finished, no thanks to the people you all put into office in 2000!

    Abbas Effendi’s effort to implant his father’s manufactured creed in the West was also by design. It is remarkable that British and Canadian establishmentarian socialites bankrolled that enterprise throughout and were ultimately responsible for diffusing it. I am thinking of the Lady Blomfields and similar. As such the diffusion of Bahaism in the West is very much a product of Western elite social networks and social engineering, larger colonialist endeavors and agendas, appropriating an ideology originating in the East to their own ends – with people such as Abbas Effendi acting in the role of convenient accomplices to such end. If Shoghi Effendi had somehow run afoul of certain elements of this elite towards the end of his life, which is the rumor, it is only natural that they would do him in and go for total control of the enterprise. After all they had his pretty much estranged Canadian well-to-do, Montreal socialite pedigree “wife” to help them do him and then cover up the act (i.e. no autopsy; hastily implemented funeral arrangements).

    W

    p.s. BTW contrary to an earlier expressed speculation of yours put up here in explaining things to that widely recognized fraud Lobo Siete Truenos aka Francis de la Maza – a speculation which I am sure came from either Susan Maneck and Terry Culhane -, I did not join a Sufi commune for a whole year. I was initiated into a Qadiri-Safialishahi sub-branch of the Iranian Nimatullahi Sufi Order in 1993 and between 1997-99 I was the Order’s American representative holding an ‘ijaza as a bona fide shaykh of the lineage. FYI

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="56821"]

    ep WROTE:

    Craig,

    Please look up what Ron Paul is saying about the economic crisis. And let me know what you think.

    I do not understand why thousands of bankers and scammers aren’t being prosecuted for fraud, financial malfeasance, ripping off the working people of the USA (and investors both here and from elsewhere), etc., and being thrown in prison.

    “Spiritual solution to economic problems”. hehehe. right.

    [quote comment="56723"]I am watching Barney Frank on Lou Dobbs. [/quote][/quote]

    Naturally, I was up late talking politics tonight on Skype. This election is right up there with 1860, 1932, and 1960. Everyone in my family worldwide was talking history. We all read a lot.

    I am familiar with Ron Paul on economics. I worked right next to a guy who was his local organizer in my area. The guy gave me lots of pamphlets to read as we worked together every day at that time. A very young guy maybe 22 doing tech support. He would come and help me some times when we had some network issues. Even took memory out of his own computer once when I needed 4GB on a special project and UPS messed up the order and we were a day behind. I fully understand where Ron Paul is coming from. I read and article where he says “no” on the bailout. The other argument is about liquidity on Main St. I don’t know who is telling the truth so I am investigating it. I think the Administration is lying on this, but I am not sure. A couple of Wall St. guys on Daily Kos were explaining it from their viewpoint with something like 700 follow up comments. they basically are saying the Administrating is lying about it. But then you hear rumors about the Chinese banks. Hummm. Too bad about WaMu too. Bummer. Not looking good at all. But if J.P. Morgan can carry the F.D.I.C hit that they say would have been $35 Billion, well, we did dodge a rather massive scatter shot target pattern of several million 7.62 millimeter NATO rounds that would eventually have had pretty much every person on this Blog with a round with their name on it at 800 ft per second per second. So I will accept that deal. I have found several good articles to study this week on the liquidity argument and not having the credit markets freeze up on commercial paper of all kinds worldwide. All I know is have a moratorium on capital gains taxes for two years as a rider on the bill, just doesn’t sound like a very stellar solution…Yep. the new term is crisis capitalism. Not good.

    But I did absolutely love these wonderfully sarcastic videos up on YouTube made by a now infamous Ron Paul supporter during the Primaries. Good stuff!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5SbWHQ0uZg

    And this one too!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx6oczHss24

    On another aspect of this election, have you seen this one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKvgtfZpV1I

    As far as Peter Khan’s draconian book using quotes by Shoghi Effendi on non-involvement in politics – sorry – I’m getting off the Baha’i train – and secondly I don’t think sarcasm and comedy should EVER be off limits anywhere in the world now. It’s all part of the New World Age. Just like rock and roll. I preach the New Day – at maximum download broadband speeds.

    I’ll get back to you on my view after I read those articles on liquidity this week. My gut is they are lying, but I honestly don’t know yet.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="56821"]

    ep WROTE:

    Craig,

    Please look up what Ron Paul is saying about the economic crisis. And let me know what you think.

    I do not understand why thousands of bankers and scammers aren’t being prosecuted for fraud, financial malfeasance, ripping off the working people of the USA (and investors both here and from elsewhere), etc., and being thrown in prison.

    “Spiritual solution to economic problems”. hehehe. right.

    [quote comment="56723"]I am watching Barney Frank on Lou Dobbs. [/quote][/quote]

    Naturally, I was up late talking politics tonight on Skype. This election is right up there with 1860, 1932, and 1960. Everyone in my family worldwide was talking history. We all read a lot.

    I am familiar with Ron Paul on economics. I worked right next to a guy who was his local organizer in my area. The guy gave me lots of pamphlets to read as we worked together every day at that time. A very young guy maybe 22 doing tech support. He would come and help me some times when we had some network issues. Even took memory out of his own computer once when I needed 4GB on a special project and UPS messed up the order and we were a day behind. I fully understand where Ron Paul is coming from. I read and article where he says “no” on the bailout. The other argument is about liquidity on Main St. I don’t know who is telling the truth so I am investigating it. I think the Administration is lying on this, but I am not sure. A couple of Wall St. guys on Daily Kos were explaining it from their viewpoint with something like 700 follow up comments. they basically are saying the Administrating is lying about it. But then you hear rumors about the Chinese banks. Hummm. Too bad about WaMu too. Bummer. Not looking good at all. But if J.P. Morgan can carry the F.D.I.C hit that they say would have been $35 Billion, well, we did dodge a rather massive scatter shot target pattern of several million 7.62 millimeter NATO rounds that would eventually have had pretty much every person on this Blog with a round with their name on it at 800 ft per second per second. So I will accept that deal. I have found several good articles to study this week on the liquidity argument and not having the credit markets freeze up on commercial paper of all kinds worldwide. All I know is have a moratorium on capital gains taxes for two years as a rider on the bill, just doesn’t sound like a very stellar solution…Yep. the new term is crisis capitalism. Not good.

    But I did absolutely love these wonderfully sarcastic videos up on YouTube made by a now infamous Ron Paul supporter during the Primaries. Good stuff!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5SbWHQ0uZg

    And this one too!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx6oczHss24

    On another aspect of this election, have you seen this one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKvgtfZpV1I

    As far as Peter Khan’s draconian book using quotes by Shoghi Effendi on non-involvement in politics – sorry – I’m getting off the Baha’i train – and secondly I don’t think sarcasm and comedy should EVER be off limits anywhere in the world now. It’s all part of the New World Age. Just like rock and roll. I preach the New Day – at maximum download broadband speeds.

    I’ll get back to you on my view after I read those articles on liquidity this week. My gut is they are lying, but I honestly don’t know yet.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="56821"]Craig,

    Please look up what Ron Paul is saying about the economic crisis. And let me know what you think.

    I do not understand why thousands of bankers and scammers aren’t being prosecuted for fraud, financial malfeasance, ripping off the working people of the USA (and investors both here and from elsewhere), etc., and being thrown in prison.

    “Spiritual solution to economic problems”. hehehe. right.

    [quote comment="56723"]I am watching Barney Frank on Lou Dobbs. [/quote][/quote]

    EP,

    I did listen to a one hour interview with Ron Paul on KDKA here over the weekend. I also found out Ron Paul is originally born and raised in Pittsburgh (Greentree) and went to Dormont H.S.! He also held two PA state track records in high school (220 and 440 sprints). But the interview was on his economic views. He is too much a gold standard guy for me. I don’t think we can ever go back to it. Federal Reserve fiat money and commercial banking fractional reserve money creation is here to stay. The key now is oversight and regulation of sane practices. That is still my view. Libertarianism sounds nice. But I don’t trust it either. But… what do you think of this analysis? Things are not looking good. Things are not looking good at all. Dow down 700 today. We’ll see what tomorrow brings. According to this article, it will not be good. But we can hope.

    http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3803.shtml

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="56821"]Craig,

    Please look up what Ron Paul is saying about the economic crisis. And let me know what you think.

    I do not understand why thousands of bankers and scammers aren’t being prosecuted for fraud, financial malfeasance, ripping off the working people of the USA (and investors both here and from elsewhere), etc., and being thrown in prison.

    “Spiritual solution to economic problems”. hehehe. right.

    [quote comment="56723"]I am watching Barney Frank on Lou Dobbs. [/quote][/quote]

    EP,

    I did listen to a one hour interview with Ron Paul on KDKA here over the weekend. I also found out Ron Paul is originally born and raised in Pittsburgh (Greentree) and went to Dormont H.S.! He also held two PA state track records in high school (220 and 440 sprints). But the interview was on his economic views. He is too much a gold standard guy for me. I don’t think we can ever go back to it. Federal Reserve fiat money and commercial banking fractional reserve money creation is here to stay. The key now is oversight and regulation of sane practices. That is still my view. Libertarianism sounds nice. But I don’t trust it either. But… what do you think of this analysis? Things are not looking good. Things are not looking good at all. Dow down 700 today. We’ll see what tomorrow brings. According to this article, it will not be good. But we can hope.

    http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3803.shtml

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Craig and EP,

    This is of course beside the point, because we know the UHJ would solve all of this in a flash if they were given the reins of power. ;-)

    But just for the sport of it, here are my two cents.

    1. Once again, the motley fool has taken hold of our minds. Everybody seems to have thought housing prices were going to continue to rocket up relentlessly, and that was supposed to cover all our losses. Why? Because of a new age market dynamic? It’s irrationality bordering on the religious!

    2. Look at the popularity of lotteries. The USA is a society obsessed with quantity yet utterly ignorant of the laws of statistics. The lenders and the borrowers are equally guilty. Should we permit the economy to tank out naturally? I think that perhaps we should, if that’s the only way we’re going to learn. We have lost touch with the wisdom of my parents’ generation (the depression kids).

    3. No more of this fanciful investment deregulation crapola. It only makes the privatization of gains and socialization of losses inevitable. Shame on you, Mr. Senator from Arizona. The only honorable thing for you to do now is admit that you went way too far, and face the voters like a man.

    Paul Krugman on what McCain has learned from his Dec 2000 deregulation:
    http://tinyurl.com/48cd2a

    4. So far all I’ve really heard in defense of the $700 billion bailout is that it will buffer confidence; that is, it’s a 700 billion dollar sugar pill.

    Oh well. Two cents; three cents, four cents; 700 billion dollars. What’s the difference?

    -Dan

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Craig and EP,

    This is of course beside the point, because we know the UHJ would solve all of this in a flash if they were given the reins of power. ;-)

    But just for the sport of it, here are my two cents.

    1. Once again, the motley fool has taken hold of our minds. Everybody seems to have thought housing prices were going to continue to rocket up relentlessly, and that was supposed to cover all our losses. Why? Because of a new age market dynamic? It’s irrationality bordering on the religious!

    2. Look at the popularity of lotteries. The USA is a society obsessed with quantity yet utterly ignorant of the laws of statistics. The lenders and the borrowers are equally guilty. Should we permit the economy to tank out naturally? I think that perhaps we should, if that’s the only way we’re going to learn. We have lost touch with the wisdom of my parents’ generation (the depression kids).

    3. No more of this fanciful investment deregulation crapola. It only makes the privatization of gains and socialization of losses inevitable. Shame on you, Mr. Senator from Arizona. The only honorable thing for you to do now is admit that you went way too far, and face the voters like a man.

    Paul Krugman on what McCain has learned from his Dec 2000 deregulation:
    http://tinyurl.com/48cd2a

    4. So far all I’ve really heard in defense of the $700 billion bailout is that it will buffer confidence; that is, it’s a 700 billion dollar sugar pill.

    Oh well. Two cents; three cents, four cents; 700 billion dollars. What’s the difference?

    -Dan

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="56964"]Craig and EP,

    This is of course beside the point, because we know the UHJ would solve all of this in a flash if they were given the reins of power. ;-)

    But just for the sport of it, here are my two cents.

    1. Once again, the motley fool has taken hold of our minds. Everybody seems to have thought housing prices were going to continue to rocket up relentlessly, and that was supposed to cover all our losses. Why? Because of a new age market dynamic? It’s irrationality bordering on the religious!

    2. Look at the popularity of lotteries. The USA is a society obsessed with quantity yet utterly ignorant of the laws of statistics. The lenders and the borrowers are equally guilty. Should we permit the economy to tank out naturally? I think that perhaps we should, if that’s the only way we’re going to learn. We have lost touch with the wisdom of my parents’ generation (the depression kids).

    3. No more of this fanciful investment deregulation crapola. It only makes the privatization of gains and socialization of losses inevitable. Shame on you, Mr. Senator from Arizona. The only honorable thing for you to do now is admit that you went way too far, and face the voters like a man.

    Paul Krugman on what McCain has learned from his Dec 2000 deregulation:
    http://tinyurl.com/48cd2a

    4. So far all I’ve really heard in defense of the $700 billion bailout is that it will buffer confidence; that is, it’s a 700 billion dollar sugar pill.

    Oh well. Two cents; three cents, four cents; 700 billion dollars. What’s the difference?

    -Dan[/quote]

    EP and Dan,

    I was pro the bailout even with Federal Reserve fiat money over the weekend after my first round of investigation. Now I am not so sure any more:

    http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1845209,00.html?cnn=yes

    But perhaps here is a truly “libertarian” solution EP? I like it this link.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-varsavsky/the-trillion-dollar-solut_b_130473.html

    Hey! Money talks! After all, you have to pay $5 for your Ruhi Book even if you aren’t a Baha’i! For investing $1,000,000 in U.S. real estate, you should get to go right through airport security without even having to stop. I’m for it. As the article says, there are lots of Chinese, non-hijacker Saudies, and Russians with very serious money now. Maybe this would help the dire situation?

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="56964"]Craig and EP,

    This is of course beside the point, because we know the UHJ would solve all of this in a flash if they were given the reins of power. ;-)

    But just for the sport of it, here are my two cents.

    1. Once again, the motley fool has taken hold of our minds. Everybody seems to have thought housing prices were going to continue to rocket up relentlessly, and that was supposed to cover all our losses. Why? Because of a new age market dynamic? It’s irrationality bordering on the religious!

    2. Look at the popularity of lotteries. The USA is a society obsessed with quantity yet utterly ignorant of the laws of statistics. The lenders and the borrowers are equally guilty. Should we permit the economy to tank out naturally? I think that perhaps we should, if that’s the only way we’re going to learn. We have lost touch with the wisdom of my parents’ generation (the depression kids).

    3. No more of this fanciful investment deregulation crapola. It only makes the privatization of gains and socialization of losses inevitable. Shame on you, Mr. Senator from Arizona. The only honorable thing for you to do now is admit that you went way too far, and face the voters like a man.

    Paul Krugman on what McCain has learned from his Dec 2000 deregulation:
    http://tinyurl.com/48cd2a

    4. So far all I’ve really heard in defense of the $700 billion bailout is that it will buffer confidence; that is, it’s a 700 billion dollar sugar pill.

    Oh well. Two cents; three cents, four cents; 700 billion dollars. What’s the difference?

    -Dan[/quote]

    EP and Dan,

    I was pro the bailout even with Federal Reserve fiat money over the weekend after my first round of investigation. Now I am not so sure any more:

    http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1845209,00.html?cnn=yes

    But perhaps here is a truly “libertarian” solution EP? I like it this link.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-varsavsky/the-trillion-dollar-solut_b_130473.html

    Hey! Money talks! After all, you have to pay $5 for your Ruhi Book even if you aren’t a Baha’i! For investing $1,000,000 in U.S. real estate, you should get to go right through airport security without even having to stop. I’m for it. As the article says, there are lots of Chinese, non-hijacker Saudies, and Russians with very serious money now. Maybe this would help the dire situation?

  • Craig Parke

    BTW, all of the Baha’i discussion sites seem to be slowing down because people are perhaps realizing that going door to door now Teaching the Faith to poorly educated very desperate people just might not work out now because there will be NO PEOPLE LIVING IN FORECLOSED HOMES! The hottest Blog on Earth right now is this one if you can still afford your cable bill:

    OLD LINK (archived from August 29th P-Day forward):
    http://mudflats.wordpress.com/

    NEW LINK (all the current financial melt down and babygate action including the upcoming Worldwide Live Chat of Thursday night’s VP debate)
    http://www.themudflats.net/

    Went from 3 hits a day to five million total so far.

    http://www.ipligence.com/webmaps/s/?u=1cd315d606ef5cc9509eb35936761c33&color=1&a=week

    This now world famous female Alaskan Blogger broke every story in this endless drama 4 days BEFORE the entire print and television MSM for 30 straight days now! The MSM is now completely irrelevant like so many other “Institutions” in the world with the rise of this technology for people who want to actually put independent investigation of truth into practice.

    A true phenomenon. This is the New World Age of citizen investigative journalists. I preach the New Day of the New Technology. The Promised Day Has Truly Come. Everyone else lead, follow, or get out of the way.

    All bets are now off.

    Can anyone now enforce “non involvement in comedy” on Youtube?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKvgtfZpV1I

  • Craig Parke

    BTW, all of the Baha’i discussion sites seem to be slowing down because people are perhaps realizing that going door to door now Teaching the Faith to poorly educated very desperate people just might not work out now because there will be NO PEOPLE LIVING IN FORECLOSED HOMES! The hottest Blog on Earth right now is this one if you can still afford your cable bill:

    OLD LINK (archived from August 29th P-Day forward):
    http://mudflats.wordpress.com/

    NEW LINK (all the current financial melt down and babygate action including the upcoming Worldwide Live Chat of Thursday night’s VP debate)
    http://www.themudflats.net/

    Went from 3 hits a day to five million total so far.

    http://www.ipligence.com/webmaps/s/?u=1cd315d606ef5cc9509eb35936761c33&color=1&a=week

    This now world famous female Alaskan Blogger broke every story in this endless drama 4 days BEFORE the entire print and television MSM for 30 straight days now! The MSM is now completely irrelevant like so many other “Institutions” in the world with the rise of this technology for people who want to actually put independent investigation of truth into practice.

    A true phenomenon. This is the New World Age of citizen investigative journalists. I preach the New Day of the New Technology. The Promised Day Has Truly Come. Everyone else lead, follow, or get out of the way.

    All bets are now off.

    Can anyone now enforce “non involvement in comedy” on Youtube?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKvgtfZpV1I

  • Craig Parke

    Here are some more links for today:

    http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1845818,00.html?cnn=yes

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxjomBUm30

    Hey! Is there anyone here who can lend me some money?

  • Craig Parke

    Here are some more links for today:

    http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1845818,00.html?cnn=yes

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxjomBUm30

    Hey! Is there anyone here who can lend me some money?

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    Am I the only one or does the idea of tests to cleanse the Faith and the objective of spreading the word until the Faith is a dominate world religion seem at odds?

    If every illogical event in Bahai is a test that cleanses how many Bahais will there be after a while?

    For example why would SE, as his final act, choose to test the believers (and non-believers) so harshly? What purpose do all the internal inconsistencies in Bahai serve except to ensure that the faith doesn’t attract many new believers?

    Maybe there is a desire to stay small and exclusive….

    I’m interested in your thoughts.

    Frank

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    Am I the only one or does the idea of tests to cleanse the Faith and the objective of spreading the word until the Faith is a dominate world religion seem at odds?

    If every illogical event in Bahai is a test that cleanses how many Bahais will there be after a while?

    For example why would SE, as his final act, choose to test the believers (and non-believers) so harshly? What purpose do all the internal inconsistencies in Bahai serve except to ensure that the faith doesn’t attract many new believers?

    Maybe there is a desire to stay small and exclusive….

    I’m interested in your thoughts.

    Frank

  • Grover

    Lol Frank, you’re absolutely right. Its like trying to sell a particularly bad and faulty product, e.g. Harley Davidson motorbikes. Their reputation was so bad at one point that the saying was “Harley Davidsons are the best, ride one mile and walk the rest”. In the end, only the real enthusiasts had them (aka the Harley motorbiking community was cleansed by tests).

    Why can’t people be upfront? The Baha’i Faith is an incredibly bad product with incredibly massive delusions of granduer. In my experience as a teacher, I’ve only ever seen such egotism in incredibly stupid and dim people. They’ll only ever get a few devoted adherents, the rest eventually wake up and move on to something better.

  • Grover

    Lol Frank, you’re absolutely right. Its like trying to sell a particularly bad and faulty product, e.g. Harley Davidson motorbikes. Their reputation was so bad at one point that the saying was “Harley Davidsons are the best, ride one mile and walk the rest”. In the end, only the real enthusiasts had them (aka the Harley motorbiking community was cleansed by tests).

    Why can’t people be upfront? The Baha’i Faith is an incredibly bad product with incredibly massive delusions of granduer. In my experience as a teacher, I’ve only ever seen such egotism in incredibly stupid and dim people. They’ll only ever get a few devoted adherents, the rest eventually wake up and move on to something better.

  • farhan

    Frank wrote:

    Am I the only one or does the idea of tests to cleanse the Faith and the objective of spreading the word until the Faith is a dominate world religion seem at odds?

    Frank, the aim is not to make the Baha’i Faith a winning Faith. The aim is to educate humanity and the Baha’i revelation happens to be the up to date method for that education. Tests are required to help us learn that what counts is how we serve humanity and not how much popularity we get.

    BTW I thoroughly enjoy your photos.

  • Farhan YAZDANI

    Frank wrote:

    Am I the only one or does the idea of tests to cleanse the Faith and the objective of spreading the word until the Faith is a dominate world religion seem at odds?

    Frank, the aim is not to make the Baha’i Faith a winning Faith. The aim is to educate humanity and the Baha’i revelation happens to be the up to date method for that education. Tests are required to help us learn that what counts is how we serve humanity and not how much popularity we get.

    BTW I thoroughly enjoy your photos.

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    Thanks to Grover and Farhan for your comments. You seem to represent two ends of a spectrum.

    Grover I think Harleys are much better machines than they were at their worst. Like Cadillac they have had a come back. But I take your point. I agree that there is bad advice along with the good in Bahai.

    Farhan — first of all I’m very pleased that you enjoy my photographs — if I have a legacy beyond my family it is in them.

    But I am puzzled by your post. How can Baha’i serve/educate mankind if it tests people with irrational conclusions such as SE didn’t leave a will on purpose? (Of course he knew he was about to die but did nothing to help those he left behind — as we say in hyper-space LOL) Or men and women are equal but women can’t achieve the highest Baha’i office?

    The faith is quite fundamental in its ethos and world view yet it claims to be the “up to date method for education.” The problem is almost nobody is listening. How do you explain that?

    Many Thanks,
    Frank

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    Thanks to Grover and Farhan for your comments. You seem to represent two ends of a spectrum.

    Grover I think Harleys are much better machines than they were at their worst. Like Cadillac they have had a come back. But I take your point. I agree that there is bad advice along with the good in Bahai.

    Farhan — first of all I’m very pleased that you enjoy my photographs — if I have a legacy beyond my family it is in them.

    But I am puzzled by your post. How can Baha’i serve/educate mankind if it tests people with irrational conclusions such as SE didn’t leave a will on purpose? (Of course he knew he was about to die but did nothing to help those he left behind — as we say in hyper-space LOL) Or men and women are equal but women can’t achieve the highest Baha’i office?

    The faith is quite fundamental in its ethos and world view yet it claims to be the “up to date method for education.” The problem is almost nobody is listening. How do you explain that?

    Many Thanks,
    Frank

  • Grover

    Hi Frank,

    “Grover I think Harleys are much better machines than they were at their worst. Like Cadillac they have had a come back. But I take your point. I agree that there is bad advice along with the good in Bahai.”

    From what I understand, one of the reasons Harleys started making a come back because they started outsourcing to foreign companies to make components and to improve component quality. Maybe Baha’is should do the same ;P .

    The thing that gets me is that we really understand very little about the Faith and the central figures. We have the standard Baha’i story about Baha’u’llah, ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, and then there are the more exotic versions kicking around. How much did events surrounding AB and SE regarding their families etc influence their writing and the policies they implemented? How much did current theories and ideas influence AB’s thoughts on evolution and so forth and SE’s ideas on Baha’i community. We have next to no idea. If we did, we could place their writings into some context that would guide how we interpret and implement them.

  • Grover

    Hi Frank,

    “Grover I think Harleys are much better machines than they were at their worst. Like Cadillac they have had a come back. But I take your point. I agree that there is bad advice along with the good in Bahai.”

    From what I understand, one of the reasons Harleys started making a come back because they started outsourcing to foreign companies to make components and to improve component quality. Maybe Baha’is should do the same ;P .

    The thing that gets me is that we really understand very little about the Faith and the central figures. We have the standard Baha’i story about Baha’u’llah, ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi, and then there are the more exotic versions kicking around. How much did events surrounding AB and SE regarding their families etc influence their writing and the policies they implemented? How much did current theories and ideas influence AB’s thoughts on evolution and so forth and SE’s ideas on Baha’i community. We have next to no idea. If we did, we could place their writings into some context that would guide how we interpret and implement them.

  • farhan

    Frank wrote:
    “How can Baha’i serve/educate mankind if it tests people with irrational conclusions such as SE didn’t leave a will on purpose?”

    Frank, the aim of God is to educate humanity and allow us to attain heights of achievement BY OUR OWN POWERS. God does not guide us like inert objects but invests us with His own qualities, as the sun illuminates a mirror if the mirror cares to turn towards the sun. The teacher knows the replies to the tests, but does not give them at the onset, because he wants the students to attain their goal by their own efforts. I can provide quotes on these points, if you wish.

    Tests are necessary to make sure that we are accomplishing our deeds through love of humanity, of God’s creation, and hence of the creator himself, and not through mere conformism, just as overjoyed by the beauty of your artistic talents I cared to investigate, I now appreciate the artist himself.

    I don’t love Bach, Picasso, Beethoven because it is fashionable to love them, or because someone said that I should; I have learnt progressively to appreciate their creation and hence admire their creators by my own efforts.

    I love the UHJ and humbly seek their guidance because every word, letter and silence from them is impregnated with God’s own love for humanity. I don’t love them because I would be rejected from the community if I did not obey them.

    BTW, I bought the Canon G9 recently, remembering some photos you once displayed from that camera, but again, Rubenstein did not succeed just because he played on a Stradivarius ;-)

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Frank wrote:
    “How can Baha’i serve/educate mankind if it tests people with irrational conclusions such as SE didn’t leave a will on purpose?”

    Frank, the aim of God is to educate humanity and allow us to attain heights of achievement BY OUR OWN POWERS. God does not guide us like inert objects but invests us with His own qualities, as the sun illuminates a mirror if the mirror cares to turn towards the sun. The teacher knows the replies to the tests, but does not give them at the onset, because he wants the students to attain their goal by their own efforts. I can provide quotes on these points, if you wish.

    Tests are necessary to make sure that we are accomplishing our deeds through love of humanity, of God’s creation, and hence of the creator himself, and not through mere conformism, just as overjoyed by the beauty of your artistic talents I cared to investigate, I now appreciate the artist himself.

    I don’t love Bach, Picasso, Beethoven because it is fashionable to love them, or because someone said that I should; I have learnt progressively to appreciate their creation and hence admire their creators by my own efforts.

    I love the UHJ and humbly seek their guidance because every word, letter and silence from them is impregnated with God’s own love for humanity. I don’t love them because I would be rejected from the community if I did not obey them.

    BTW, I bought the Canon G9 recently, remembering some photos you once displayed from that camera, but again, Rubenstein did not succeed just because he played on a Stradivarius ;-)

  • farhan

    Grover wrote:
    ?How much did events surrounding AB and SE regarding their families etc influence their writing and the policies they implemented??

    Grover, seen from my view point, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi managed to efface, as far as it is possible to do so, their own personality so that the light of God’s Revelation could shine through. Some policies were directed to specific needs of their times, pending the election of the UHJ, such as wearing Oriental or Western clothes, going to the mosque, burying the dead with feet towards Mecca or performing the Moslem fast. Others were destined for generations to come.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Grover wrote:
    ?How much did events surrounding AB and SE regarding their families etc influence their writing and the policies they implemented??

    Grover, seen from my view point, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi managed to efface, as far as it is possible to do so, their own personality so that the light of God’s Revelation could shine through. Some policies were directed to specific needs of their times, pending the election of the UHJ, such as wearing Oriental or Western clothes, going to the mosque, burying the dead with feet towards Mecca or performing the Moslem fast. Others were destined for generations to come.

  • farhan

    Harlan wrote:
    “These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.”

    Harlan, I disagree with this view; God rejects no one. We lose our illumination when we turn the mirrors of our hearts away from God’s revelation. There is always an option to be welcomed back

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Harlan wrote:
    “These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.”

    Harlan, I disagree with this view; God rejects no one. We lose our illumination when we turn the mirrors of our hearts away from God’s revelation. There is always an option to be welcomed back

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""][...] Harlan wrote:
    ?These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.? [...][/quote]

    I’ve hesitated to mention this, but now I feel that I should say that the Harlan Lang that I know is a very tolerant, kind man, and that statement seems very out of character for him. I suspect that someone else has used his name, perhaps to lend credence to that rather fanatical pronouncement.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""][...] Harlan wrote:
    ?These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.? [...][/quote]

    I’ve hesitated to mention this, but now I feel that I should say that the Harlan Lang that I know is a very tolerant, kind man, and that statement seems very out of character for him. I suspect that someone else has used his name, perhaps to lend credence to that rather fanatical pronouncement.

  • ep

    [quote comment="57178"]Harlan wrote:
    “These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.”

    [Harlan?], I disagree with this view; God rejects no one. We lose our illumination when we turn the mirrors of our hearts away from God’s revelation. There is always an option to be welcomed back[/quote]

    There are plenty of bahais that have turned away from “good/truth/beauty”. Including, and probably especially, the institutions that so many bahais have been brainwashed by their collective idiocracy into believing “can do not wrong”.

    The appalling arrogance and hubris of anyone stating that they, or their completely screwed up and ridiculous religion, can define who has “turned away” from God is precisely the evidence that backwardness and fanaticism is in full play within the bahai faith.

    Being “welcomed back” to “god’s chosen people”, in the case of bahai and almost all religions I’ve experienced, is about as appetizing as being welcomed back to a group of doggy poo eaters. very bad breath. reminds me of what Groucho Marx said “I wouldn’t want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.”

    The contradictions are massive. bahai scripture says to not be fanatical. it also says to *be* fanatical (attack coconut breakers, nonconformists, dissidents, etc.).

    Only the people that are fanatical are in the “in group”. But the religion defines the fanatics that have put themselves in the “in group” as being in the “out group”.

    ABSURD. RIDICULOUS. TRAVESTY SHAM MOCKERY. TRAVESHAMOCERY.

    The result is a religion where the leadership elites are dominated by, at best, very clever hypocrits and liars (or on the other hand, morons).

    Which, again, is a massive contradiction because the religion supposedly prohibits dishonesty. Being dishonest is “turning away from god”. shich makes the in-group the out-group.

    which again, is absurd, incoherent, and ridiculous.

    Farhan is just “spinning” the issue, and trying to put lipstick on a pig, as usual.

    the reality is bahai is a toxic religion that dehumanizes and exploits people. it is a big lie. it is a “middle man” scam. it offers transcendence/belonging, at the price of mindlessness, conformism and dishonesty.

    in other words, it has been pulled back into the “gravity well” of medieval shiism. doggy poo eaters = bad breath.

  • ep

    [quote comment="57178"]Harlan wrote:
    “These people imagine that they have left the Faith when in fact they have been swept out by the Hand of God.”

    [Harlan?], I disagree with this view; God rejects no one. We lose our illumination when we turn the mirrors of our hearts away from God’s revelation. There is always an option to be welcomed back[/quote]

    There are plenty of bahais that have turned away from “good/truth/beauty”. Including, and probably especially, the institutions that so many bahais have been brainwashed by their collective idiocracy into believing “can do not wrong”.

    The appalling arrogance and hubris of anyone stating that they, or their completely screwed up and ridiculous religion, can define who has “turned away” from God is precisely the evidence that backwardness and fanaticism is in full play within the bahai faith.

    Being “welcomed back” to “god’s chosen people”, in the case of bahai and almost all religions I’ve experienced, is about as appetizing as being welcomed back to a group of doggy poo eaters. very bad breath. reminds me of what Groucho Marx said “I wouldn’t want to belong to any club that would have me as a member.”

    The contradictions are massive. bahai scripture says to not be fanatical. it also says to *be* fanatical (attack coconut breakers, nonconformists, dissidents, etc.).

    Only the people that are fanatical are in the “in group”. But the religion defines the fanatics that have put themselves in the “in group” as being in the “out group”.

    ABSURD. RIDICULOUS. TRAVESTY SHAM MOCKERY. TRAVESHAMOCERY.

    The result is a religion where the leadership elites are dominated by, at best, very clever hypocrits and liars (or on the other hand, morons).

    Which, again, is a massive contradiction because the religion supposedly prohibits dishonesty. Being dishonest is “turning away from god”. shich makes the in-group the out-group.

    which again, is absurd, incoherent, and ridiculous.

    Farhan is just “spinning” the issue, and trying to put lipstick on a pig, as usual.

    the reality is bahai is a toxic religion that dehumanizes and exploits people. it is a big lie. it is a “middle man” scam. it offers transcendence/belonging, at the price of mindlessness, conformism and dishonesty.

    in other words, it has been pulled back into the “gravity well” of medieval shiism. doggy poo eaters = bad breath.

  • farhan

    EP wrote:

    “Farhan is just “spinning” the issue, and trying to put lipstick on a pig, as usual.”

    Well, that is your vision of reality, which I do not share. However, I am impressed by the number of negative words you can fit into one sentence… sounds very scatological to me.. I find a flower is beautiful even if it grows on a rubbish dump.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    EP wrote:

    “Farhan is just “spinning” the issue, and trying to put lipstick on a pig, as usual.”

    Well, that is your vision of reality, which I do not share. However, I am impressed by the number of negative words you can fit into one sentence… sounds very scatological to me.. I find a flower is beautiful even if it grows on a rubbish dump.

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    EP wrote:

    “The appalling arrogance and hubris of anyone stating that they, or their completely screwed up and ridiculous religion, can define who has ?turned away? from God is precisely the evidence that backwardness and fanaticism is in full play within the bahai faith.”

    Yes. But why so angry, EP? Isn’t this the posture of most religion: “We have a lock on truth?”

    Religion says, “once a sacred person had transcendence, follow him and you will be protected and enlightened.” “I am the way the truth and the life” Jesus supposedly said. In Baha’i we have infallibility coming out of our ears. The Jews are told that they are the chosen people.

    This way of thinking worked when the objective was to unite a group of people separating them from others. But now we need world unity or at the very least worldwide tolerance of all. So we need a worldview that is up to the task.

    Baha’i claims to be the embodiment of such a view but it will never achieve that goal with a divisive worldview.

    Buddhism has a better chance of being a world religion (as long as the world is populated by thinking people) and I think UU also will appeal ultimately to more people than Baha’i. Both religions urge people to think for themselves. Buddha is quoted saying, “Do not accept anything, even if I say it, that does not agree with your own conscience and common sense” (or words to that effect). UU urges people to explore world religions and recognizes that truth comes from many sources.

    Baha’i tells us that there is really only one place to get the unadulterated truth today — says that all other religions, while true at their core, were sullied by the passage of time — sullied and distorted. In fact Abdul Baha says in SAQ that none of the teachings of Buddha remain — all of it has been completely distorted by time. This must be because what Buddhists believe today doesn’t sync with all of Baha’ullah’s teachings.

    It is true that time has distorted what the founders of religion taught. But it is also true that the work of saints and philosophers has illuminated the same teachings. The challenge to us is to discern the difference. Baha’is believe that we need Baha’ullah to do the discernment for us. I like Buddha’s advice in this case better.

    The idea that only the ‘manifestation’ can know God and that the meditations and truth seeking if Buddhist holy people over the years have resulted a complete distortion of Buddha’s teachings is an incredible position to take. It reduces the human potential to that of an intellectual and spiritual slave, imo.

    I have been reading Emerson who taught “God is still speaking.” UU adopted this point of view. So have I.

    Bahai’s speak of tests: I think an important test is provided by religion inherently. If we accept any religion without a critical eye and without thinking things through for ourselves we reduce our spirit and our mind. The test is to be able to see the value in religion without accepting everything in any one of them. We must discern the truth on a daily basis and as Baha’ullah suggested, call ourselves into account every day.

    Emerson thought that we all have the potential of being like Jesus. Buddha taught that we can all become Buddhas. But if we accept any dogmatic religion we will never approach these potentials. If we accept every bit of tortured logic used to justify logical inconsistencies and internal confusion found in the religion of our choice we might feel saved or chosen but run the risk of stunted growth.

    So EP — why so angry? Not up to the tests of religion or are you the kind of student of life who thinks all tests are unfair?

    Peace,
    Frank

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    EP wrote:

    “The appalling arrogance and hubris of anyone stating that they, or their completely screwed up and ridiculous religion, can define who has ?turned away? from God is precisely the evidence that backwardness and fanaticism is in full play within the bahai faith.”

    Yes. But why so angry, EP? Isn’t this the posture of most religion: “We have a lock on truth?”

    Religion says, “once a sacred person had transcendence, follow him and you will be protected and enlightened.” “I am the way the truth and the life” Jesus supposedly said. In Baha’i we have infallibility coming out of our ears. The Jews are told that they are the chosen people.

    This way of thinking worked when the objective was to unite a group of people separating them from others. But now we need world unity or at the very least worldwide tolerance of all. So we need a worldview that is up to the task.

    Baha’i claims to be the embodiment of such a view but it will never achieve that goal with a divisive worldview.

    Buddhism has a better chance of being a world religion (as long as the world is populated by thinking people) and I think UU also will appeal ultimately to more people than Baha’i. Both religions urge people to think for themselves. Buddha is quoted saying, “Do not accept anything, even if I say it, that does not agree with your own conscience and common sense” (or words to that effect). UU urges people to explore world religions and recognizes that truth comes from many sources.

    Baha’i tells us that there is really only one place to get the unadulterated truth today — says that all other religions, while true at their core, were sullied by the passage of time — sullied and distorted. In fact Abdul Baha says in SAQ that none of the teachings of Buddha remain — all of it has been completely distorted by time. This must be because what Buddhists believe today doesn’t sync with all of Baha’ullah’s teachings.

    It is true that time has distorted what the founders of religion taught. But it is also true that the work of saints and philosophers has illuminated the same teachings. The challenge to us is to discern the difference. Baha’is believe that we need Baha’ullah to do the discernment for us. I like Buddha’s advice in this case better.

    The idea that only the ‘manifestation’ can know God and that the meditations and truth seeking if Buddhist holy people over the years have resulted a complete distortion of Buddha’s teachings is an incredible position to take. It reduces the human potential to that of an intellectual and spiritual slave, imo.

    I have been reading Emerson who taught “God is still speaking.” UU adopted this point of view. So have I.

    Bahai’s speak of tests: I think an important test is provided by religion inherently. If we accept any religion without a critical eye and without thinking things through for ourselves we reduce our spirit and our mind. The test is to be able to see the value in religion without accepting everything in any one of them. We must discern the truth on a daily basis and as Baha’ullah suggested, call ourselves into account every day.

    Emerson thought that we all have the potential of being like Jesus. Buddha taught that we can all become Buddhas. But if we accept any dogmatic religion we will never approach these potentials. If we accept every bit of tortured logic used to justify logical inconsistencies and internal confusion found in the religion of our choice we might feel saved or chosen but run the risk of stunted growth.

    So EP — why so angry? Not up to the tests of religion or are you the kind of student of life who thinks all tests are unfair?

    Peace,
    Frank

  • Andrew

    Too many humans would gladly trade a rational world for a superstitious one if it calms their fears, gives them status, or gains them an advantage over their fellows. People are always afraid to think. And alas, integrity is always a prisoner of vanity, and common sense is easily eclipsed by greed … What sets our species apart is not just what humans will do to other humans, but how tirelessly they justify it. (William Dietrich, “Napoleon’s Pyramids”)

  • Andrew

    Too many humans would gladly trade a rational world for a superstitious one if it calms their fears, gives them status, or gains them an advantage over their fellows. People are always afraid to think. And alas, integrity is always a prisoner of vanity, and common sense is easily eclipsed by greed … What sets our species apart is not just what humans will do to other humans, but how tirelessly they justify it. (William Dietrich, “Napoleon’s Pyramids”)

  • p

    This way of thinking worked when the objective was to unite a group of people separating them from others. But now we need world unity or at the very least worldwide tolerance of all. So we need a worldview that is up to the task.
    ————————————
    Maybe we need aliens to come down. That way we have yet another us vs. them scenario for the Bahai faith to flourish. :o)

  • p

    This way of thinking worked when the objective was to unite a group of people separating them from others. But now we need world unity or at the very least worldwide tolerance of all. So we need a worldview that is up to the task.
    ————————————
    Maybe we need aliens to come down. That way we have yet another us vs. them scenario for the Bahai faith to flourish. :o)

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    “Maybe we need aliens to come down. That way we have yet another us vs. them scenario for the Baha’i faith to flourish. :o)”

    Yes. Or we could appoint Pogo our leader and use his famous self reference — “We have met the enemy and they is us!”

    I think the Baha’i faith will flourish but it will be ‘one among many’ just like the penny. And i wouldn’t want it any other way…

    Frank

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    “Maybe we need aliens to come down. That way we have yet another us vs. them scenario for the Baha’i faith to flourish. :o)”

    Yes. Or we could appoint Pogo our leader and use his famous self reference — “We have met the enemy and they is us!”

    I think the Baha’i faith will flourish but it will be ‘one among many’ just like the penny. And i wouldn’t want it any other way…

    Frank

  • Grover

    Ignorance is bliss!

    Didn’t Adam and Eve get cast out of Eden for eating an apple from the tree of knowledge?

    While ignorance isn’t a path I would advocate, it does make things a hell of a lot easier.

  • Grover

    Ignorance is bliss!

    Didn’t Adam and Eve get cast out of Eden for eating an apple from the tree of knowledge?

    While ignorance isn’t a path I would advocate, it does make things a hell of a lot easier.

  • farhan

    P wrote:

    “Maybe we need aliens to come down. That way we have yet another us vs. them scenario for the Bahai faith to flourish. :o) ”

    P, aliens have always been and will always be with us and within us.

    They are our egotistic trends that pull us down to our natural animal state. The aim of religion is to help us understand that life in this world is a temporary step in our spiritual journey and help us invest in whetever will enrich us spiritually.

    The ultimate battle is with our own selves and the conflict with others is only that same tension projected outside.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    P wrote:

    “Maybe we need aliens to come down. That way we have yet another us vs. them scenario for the Bahai faith to flourish. :o) ”

    P, aliens have always been and will always be with us and within us.

    They are our egotistic trends that pull us down to our natural animal state. The aim of religion is to help us understand that life in this world is a temporary step in our spiritual journey and help us invest in whetever will enrich us spiritually.

    The ultimate battle is with our own selves and the conflict with others is only that same tension projected outside.

  • farhan

    Frank wrote:
    “I think the Baha’i faith will flourish but it will be ‘one among many’ just like the penny. And i wouldn’t want it any other way… ”

    Frank, the aim is not to have the Baha’i Faith flourish, but to have humanity prosper by being inspired and educated by spiritual values.

    I believe that those teachings offered by the Baha’i Faith happen to be the most appropriate at this point in human history, however imperfect those who promote them might be.

    In fact I firmly believe that the fact that those who promote these teachings are themselves imperfect, is utter proof that whatever they offer is not from themselves, but from God.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Frank wrote:
    “I think the Baha’i faith will flourish but it will be ‘one among many’ just like the penny. And i wouldn’t want it any other way… ”

    Frank, the aim is not to have the Baha’i Faith flourish, but to have humanity prosper by being inspired and educated by spiritual values.

    I believe that those teachings offered by the Baha’i Faith happen to be the most appropriate at this point in human history, however imperfect those who promote them might be.

    In fact I firmly believe that the fact that those who promote these teachings are themselves imperfect, is utter proof that whatever they offer is not from themselves, but from God.

  • farhan

    Grover wrote:
    “Didn’t Adam and Eve get cast out of Eden for eating an apple from the tree of knowledge?”

    Grover, if you read Genesis carefully, you will see how the serpent suggests to Eve that by eating the fruit (who said it was an apple?), they would become equal with God, acquiring the knowledge of good and evil for their own selves.

    What cast them out of paradise was the ambition to become peers and equals with God. Hence true liberty is submission to God’s will.

    In Jean de La Fontaine’s fables, there is a chapter on the wolf and the dog. The wolf envies the comfortable life of the dog, until he notices that the dog has a collar and a chain. (see http://oaks.nvg.org/fonta1.html#wolfdog for the English translation)

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Grover wrote:
    “Didn’t Adam and Eve get cast out of Eden for eating an apple from the tree of knowledge?”

    Grover, if you read Genesis carefully, you will see how the serpent suggests to Eve that by eating the fruit (who said it was an apple?), they would become equal with God, acquiring the knowledge of good and evil for their own selves.

    What cast them out of paradise was the ambition to become peers and equals with God. Hence true liberty is submission to God’s will.

    In Jean de La Fontaine’s fables, there is a chapter on the wolf and the dog. The wolf envies the comfortable life of the dog, until he notices that the dog has a collar and a chain. (see http://oaks.nvg.org/fonta1.html#wolfdog for the English translation)

  • Wahid Azal

    The irony….

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JJ09Ak01.html

    “It is ironic that Iran has been protected from being infected by the ‘Anglo disease’ [i.e. our debt-based financial turmoil] by the very sanctions which were aimed at damaging it.”

    “Finally, to those in Iran who advocate reform, I have this advice: the last thing Iran needs is to reform itself to achieve a Western financial market model, which has demonstrably failed. Indeed, Iran is fortunate that circumstances have prevented it from going down this road.”

  • Wahid Azal

    The irony….

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JJ09Ak01.html

    “It is ironic that Iran has been protected from being infected by the ‘Anglo disease’ [i.e. our debt-based financial turmoil] by the very sanctions which were aimed at damaging it.”

    “Finally, to those in Iran who advocate reform, I have this advice: the last thing Iran needs is to reform itself to achieve a Western financial market model, which has demonstrably failed. Indeed, Iran is fortunate that circumstances have prevented it from going down this road.”

  • Grover

    Farhan wrote:

    “Grover, if you read Genesis carefully, you will see how the serpent suggests to Eve that by eating the fruit (who said it was an apple?), they would become equal with God, acquiring the knowledge of good and evil for their own selves.

    What cast them out of paradise was the ambition to become peers and equals with God. Hence true liberty is submission to God’s will.”

    I don’t think Adam and Eve were so nasty and evil as to have that kind of ambition, at least not in the way you put it. Another interpretation would be that it was a loss of innocence by eating from the tree of knowledge that resulted in Adam and Eve being cast from Eden.

    Hence my original saying, ignorance is bliss. We see parallels to the story of Adam and Eve every day. For example, the Baha’i Faith is wonderful until you either encounter the bad side or do some independent investigation (aka eat from the tree of knowledge) and then eventually you leave (aka cast from Eden). Other examples, democracy, the legal system, the police force, George Bush, all super great and wonderful until you blunder onto the truth and realise how all terribly flawed it all is.

    Another interpretation of Adam and Eve is that you can’t hide the truth forever, eventually they’re going to find out and they and you are going to have to live with the consequences.

    Is it much better to remain innocent and ignorant or to live with a terrible reality?

    Submission to the will of God? You have to know what God’s will is first and this requires accepting a long list of assumptions:

    1) There is a God
    2) God sends messengers
    3) Baha’u’llah is the latest messenger
    4) What Baha’u’llah says is true and correct and is God’s will
    5) Baha’u’llah’s writings have been translated accurately
    6) You have interpreted Baha’u’llah’s writings as Baha’u’llah intended

    Can you honestly say with any degree of certainty that you KNOW all of those are true. The best you can say is you believe or would like to think all those are true.

    True liberty isn’t submission unto God’s will, because what is “God’s will” is usually what someone wants you to think God’s will is.

    True liberty is thinking for yourself, examining everything critically, and keeping an open mind.

  • Grover

    Farhan wrote:

    “Grover, if you read Genesis carefully, you will see how the serpent suggests to Eve that by eating the fruit (who said it was an apple?), they would become equal with God, acquiring the knowledge of good and evil for their own selves.

    What cast them out of paradise was the ambition to become peers and equals with God. Hence true liberty is submission to God’s will.”

    I don’t think Adam and Eve were so nasty and evil as to have that kind of ambition, at least not in the way you put it. Another interpretation would be that it was a loss of innocence by eating from the tree of knowledge that resulted in Adam and Eve being cast from Eden.

    Hence my original saying, ignorance is bliss. We see parallels to the story of Adam and Eve every day. For example, the Baha’i Faith is wonderful until you either encounter the bad side or do some independent investigation (aka eat from the tree of knowledge) and then eventually you leave (aka cast from Eden). Other examples, democracy, the legal system, the police force, George Bush, all super great and wonderful until you blunder onto the truth and realise how all terribly flawed it all is.

    Another interpretation of Adam and Eve is that you can’t hide the truth forever, eventually they’re going to find out and they and you are going to have to live with the consequences.

    Is it much better to remain innocent and ignorant or to live with a terrible reality?

    Submission to the will of God? You have to know what God’s will is first and this requires accepting a long list of assumptions:

    1) There is a God
    2) God sends messengers
    3) Baha’u’llah is the latest messenger
    4) What Baha’u’llah says is true and correct and is God’s will
    5) Baha’u’llah’s writings have been translated accurately
    6) You have interpreted Baha’u’llah’s writings as Baha’u’llah intended

    Can you honestly say with any degree of certainty that you KNOW all of those are true. The best you can say is you believe or would like to think all those are true.

    True liberty isn’t submission unto God’s will, because what is “God’s will” is usually what someone wants you to think God’s will is.

    True liberty is thinking for yourself, examining everything critically, and keeping an open mind.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""][...] I don’t think Adam and Eve were so nasty and evil as to have that kind of ambition, at least not in the way you put it. Another interpretation would be that it was a loss of innocence by eating from the tree of knowledge that resulted in Adam and Eve being cast from Eden. [...][/quote]

    Just to add on … I’m inclined to believe that the story of the expulsion from Eden is a profound recognition of the existentially moral nature of man. We have an ability to distinguish between right and wrong, making us like God (in his image), meaning that we must head out into the big bad world as adults, rather than remain as subservient minions in a blissful nursery.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""][...] I don’t think Adam and Eve were so nasty and evil as to have that kind of ambition, at least not in the way you put it. Another interpretation would be that it was a loss of innocence by eating from the tree of knowledge that resulted in Adam and Eve being cast from Eden. [...][/quote]

    Just to add on … I’m inclined to believe that the story of the expulsion from Eden is a profound recognition of the existentially moral nature of man. We have an ability to distinguish between right and wrong, making us like God (in his image), meaning that we must head out into the big bad world as adults, rather than remain as subservient minions in a blissful nursery.

  • farhan

    Grover wrote:
    ?I don’t think Adam and Eve were so nasty and evil as to have that kind of ambition…?

    Farhan: I agree; it was the serpent that was blamed for being nasty (of course I see Genesis as an educative story and not history). Here is what the serpent (the lower nature of humans) said in Genesis 3: 5
    “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Grover: ?Another interpretation would be that it was a loss of innocence by eating from the tree of knowledge that resulted in Adam and Eve being cast from Eden.?

    Farhan: Thanks for sharing a common view that I don’t share. As Baha’u’llah said (Gleanings LXVX), if we wanted that careless bliss, we should have sought it in the womb. True joy is being weaned from submission to material limitations and acquiring knowledge and maturation, evolving beyond the world of nature into the world of humanity which is ?The Kingdom?.

    Grover: ?Is it much better to remain innocent and ignorant or to live with a terrible reality??

    Farhan: For me true happiness is to live and overcome: the stumbling block made into a stepping stone, but again, it all depends what you hope and expect from this nether world during your short life.

    Grover: Submission to the will of God? You have to know what God’s will is first and this requires accepting a long list of assumptions(snip):

    Farhan: Agreed; belief only is the premises of action and should be preceded by an individual search.

    Grover: Can you honestly say with any degree of certainty that you KNOW all of those are true

    Farhan: all I can say is what I believe at a given time, and that this belief is likely to evolve.

    Grover: True liberty isn’t submission unto God’s will, because what is “God’s will” is usually what someone wants you to think God’s will is.

    Farhan: It requires first recognising whatever source of inspiration you choose. Without this choice, we are prisoners of nature which ultimately brings our bodies to dust. Knowledge of an ideal links us to that ideal and liberates us from the grips of nature.

    Grover: True liberty is thinking for your self, examining everything critically, and keeping an open mind.

    Farhan: Agreed strongly. A belief is only liberation if it has been freely acquired, otherwise it is alienation.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Grover wrote:
    ?I don’t think Adam and Eve were so nasty and evil as to have that kind of ambition…?

    Farhan: I agree; it was the serpent that was blamed for being nasty (of course I see Genesis as an educative story and not history). Here is what the serpent (the lower nature of humans) said in Genesis 3: 5
    “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Grover: ?Another interpretation would be that it was a loss of innocence by eating from the tree of knowledge that resulted in Adam and Eve being cast from Eden.?

    Farhan: Thanks for sharing a common view that I don’t share. As Baha’u’llah said (Gleanings LXVX), if we wanted that careless bliss, we should have sought it in the womb. True joy is being weaned from submission to material limitations and acquiring knowledge and maturation, evolving beyond the world of nature into the world of humanity which is ?The Kingdom?.

    Grover: ?Is it much better to remain innocent and ignorant or to live with a terrible reality??

    Farhan: For me true happiness is to live and overcome: the stumbling block made into a stepping stone, but again, it all depends what you hope and expect from this nether world during your short life.

    Grover: Submission to the will of God? You have to know what God’s will is first and this requires accepting a long list of assumptions(snip):

    Farhan: Agreed; belief only is the premises of action and should be preceded by an individual search.

    Grover: Can you honestly say with any degree of certainty that you KNOW all of those are true

    Farhan: all I can say is what I believe at a given time, and that this belief is likely to evolve.

    Grover: True liberty isn’t submission unto God’s will, because what is “God’s will” is usually what someone wants you to think God’s will is.

    Farhan: It requires first recognising whatever source of inspiration you choose. Without this choice, we are prisoners of nature which ultimately brings our bodies to dust. Knowledge of an ideal links us to that ideal and liberates us from the grips of nature.

    Grover: True liberty is thinking for your self, examining everything critically, and keeping an open mind.

    Farhan: Agreed strongly. A belief is only liberation if it has been freely acquired, otherwise it is alienation.

  • ep

    Ignorance is ignorance. Adam and Eve is probably “really” about climate change and the shift from matriarchal to patriarchal (war) societies in an increasingly arid (and/or deforested) middle east 5,000-10,000 (?) years ago.

    Creation is clearly a female act, as early human fertility rites confirm.

    The Bible starts with a giant lie (that creation is male), and then expands on it like an endlessly expanding Mandelbrot fractal.

    As the climate in the middle east and north africa (sudan, etc.) shifted from subtropical to arid, a more aggressive, warlike, hierarchical, male-dominate culture had increased survival value as resources became scare. the earlier “prehistoric” matriarchal systems that flourished when the ecosystem was verdant survived only as secondary archetypes (divine feminine, virgin birth, etc.) within the war culture.

    Thus, the “God” (really the “war god”, or the “thundering sky god”, pick your jungian archetype) of the judeo-christian-islamic-bahai traditions was born.

    As such, “submission to the will of god” thus really means tribal, feudal and imperial liege, slavery, serfdom, etc.

    (such silly premodern metaphysics have been utterly demolished by rational thought and modern/postmodern philosophy. unbeknown to most of bahai, apparently.)

    In a modern/postmodern world, such a premodern/feudal paradigm is woefully conformist, inflexibile and stasist.

    And thus any theological/metaphysical system, such as bahai (which is just warmed over and “universalized” sufism), that is based on it will INEVITABLY become fanatical, paradigm regressive, backward and fascistic.

    which is why the democratizing elements of bahai theology, and the very interesting validation of the “divine feminine” in bahai scripture are almost COMPLETELY IGNORED in mainstream bahai culture. love, embrace, nurturance (divine feminine) are purely symbolic and sociologically “instrumentalized”, they are NOT given any “real” power or emphasis in bahai culture. (outside of a few obscure mysticism conferences)

    (in the “non-bahai” world, postmodernists and feminists have also corrupted the archetype with war-thought and conflict-oriented mentalities.)

    the real power in bahai culture combines archetypal images associated with conflict and oppressive social systems designed to make people conform to backwardness and the “war god” paradigm/archetype.

    | Baha’ullah addresses the “Rulers of America and the
    | Presidents of the Republics therein” specifically in
    | the Kitab-i-Aqdas. “Bind ye the broken with the hands
    | of justice, and crush the oppressor who flourisheth
    | with the rod of the commandments of your Lord.”

    (that should make people all over the planet feel warm-fuzzy.)

    bahai is doomed in that it is being pulled back down into the “gravity well of shiism” by inexorable cultural forces.

    what is needed in the world is integration of paradigms. bahai clearly lacks a framework of thought or belief that could ever make such paradigm integration possible in a real-world, practical sense. instead everything within bahai becomes subservient to maintaining a broken, dysfunctional bureaucracy run by a corrupt, inept leadership elite.

    (see Jurgen Habermas on the “colonization of lifeworld by systems”, Ivan Illich’s “Vernacular Values”, and so forth)

    so, in spite of the supposedly noble aims of the religion, and the hopes of believers for enlightenment, the seeds of doom were planted long ago.

    anyone really interested in working toward freedom of thought or belief, cultural dynamism and evolution, mystical universalism-unity, world peace, justice, etc., should go elsewhere. run away fast, bahai is a ridiculous scam.

    (sorry if I haven’t been able to keep up with all earlier responses, I’ll attempt complete follow-ups this coming weekend.)

    Eric P.
    XL-ex-bahai (after 30+ years)
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="57249"]Ignorance is bliss!

    Didn’t Adam and Eve get cast out of Eden for eating an apple from the tree of knowledge?

    [/quote]

  • farhan

    Dan wrote:
    “We have an ability to distinguish between right and wrong, making us like God (in his image), meaning that we must head out into the big bad world as adults, rather than remain as subservient minions in a blissful nursery.”

    I can agree to a point with this; once we have performed our search and we see what goes on in the world we can then confidently adhere to God’s message.

  • ep

    Ignorance is ignorance. Adam and Eve is probably “really” about climate change and the shift from matriarchal to patriarchal (war) societies in an increasingly arid (and/or deforested) middle east 5,000-10,000 (?) years ago.

    Creation is clearly a female act, as early human fertility rites confirm.

    The Bible starts with a giant lie (that creation is male), and then expands on it like an endlessly expanding Mandelbrot fractal.

    As the climate in the middle east and north africa (sudan, etc.) shifted from subtropical to arid, a more aggressive, warlike, hierarchical, male-dominate culture had increased survival value as resources became scare. the earlier “prehistoric” matriarchal systems that flourished when the ecosystem was verdant survived only as secondary archetypes (divine feminine, virgin birth, etc.) within the war culture.

    Thus, the “God” (really the “war god”, or the “thundering sky god”, pick your jungian archetype) of the judeo-christian-islamic-bahai traditions was born.

    As such, “submission to the will of god” thus really means tribal, feudal and imperial liege, slavery, serfdom, etc.

    (such silly premodern metaphysics have been utterly demolished by rational thought and modern/postmodern philosophy. unbeknown to most of bahai, apparently.)

    In a modern/postmodern world, such a premodern/feudal paradigm is woefully conformist, inflexibile and stasist.

    And thus any theological/metaphysical system, such as bahai (which is just warmed over and “universalized” sufism), that is based on it will INEVITABLY become fanatical, paradigm regressive, backward and fascistic.

    which is why the democratizing elements of bahai theology, and the very interesting validation of the “divine feminine” in bahai scripture are almost COMPLETELY IGNORED in mainstream bahai culture. love, embrace, nurturance (divine feminine) are purely symbolic and sociologically “instrumentalized”, they are NOT given any “real” power or emphasis in bahai culture. (outside of a few obscure mysticism conferences)

    (in the “non-bahai” world, postmodernists and feminists have also corrupted the archetype with war-thought and conflict-oriented mentalities.)

    the real power in bahai culture combines archetypal images associated with conflict and oppressive social systems designed to make people conform to backwardness and the “war god” paradigm/archetype.

    | Baha’ullah addresses the “Rulers of America and the
    | Presidents of the Republics therein” specifically in
    | the Kitab-i-Aqdas. “Bind ye the broken with the hands
    | of justice, and crush the oppressor who flourisheth
    | with the rod of the commandments of your Lord.”

    (that should make people all over the planet feel warm-fuzzy.)

    bahai is doomed in that it is being pulled back down into the “gravity well of shiism” by inexorable cultural forces.

    what is needed in the world is integration of paradigms. bahai clearly lacks a framework of thought or belief that could ever make such paradigm integration possible in a real-world, practical sense. instead everything within bahai becomes subservient to maintaining a broken, dysfunctional bureaucracy run by a corrupt, inept leadership elite.

    (see Jurgen Habermas on the “colonization of lifeworld by systems”, Ivan Illich’s “Vernacular Values”, and so forth)

    so, in spite of the supposedly noble aims of the religion, and the hopes of believers for enlightenment, the seeds of doom were planted long ago.

    anyone really interested in working toward freedom of thought or belief, cultural dynamism and evolution, mystical universalism-unity, world peace, justice, etc., should go elsewhere. run away fast, bahai is a ridiculous scam.

    (sorry if I haven’t been able to keep up with all earlier responses, I’ll attempt complete follow-ups this coming weekend.)

    Eric P.
    XL-ex-bahai (after 30+ years)
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="57249"]Ignorance is bliss!

    Didn’t Adam and Eve get cast out of Eden for eating an apple from the tree of knowledge?

    [/quote]

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Dan wrote:
    “We have an ability to distinguish between right and wrong, making us like God (in his image), meaning that we must head out into the big bad world as adults, rather than remain as subservient minions in a blissful nursery.”

    I can agree to a point with this; once we have performed our search and we see what goes on in the world we can then confidently adhere to God’s message.

  • ep

    Frank,

    Thanks for the excellent feedback.

    If you look really really really carefully, you will see that this site is titled “bahairants”.

    The critical syntax to be parsed is “RANT”. As preceeded by “BAHAI”.

    rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai

    So, every once in a while there is a RANT contest, and whoever wins get a lolly pop. It is an energy efficient, green-certified organic lolly pop made from sugar plants raised on shade grown biodyamic nutrients in a democratizing sustainable culture in central america that embraces the full spectrum of human consciousness, transcendence, altruisma and compassion, peace and harmony.

    this is important stuff, and no one should ever make fun of it.

    [quote comment="57219"]EP wrote:

    “The appalling arrogance and hubris of anyone stating that they, or their completely screwed up and ridiculous religion, can define who has ?turned away? from God is precisely the evidence that backwardness and fanaticism is in full play within the bahai faith.”

    Yes. But why so angry, EP? Isn’t this the posture of most religion: “We have a lock on truth?”

  • ep

    Frank,

    Thanks for the excellent feedback.

    If you look really really really carefully, you will see that this site is titled “bahairants”.

    The critical syntax to be parsed is “RANT”. As preceeded by “BAHAI”.

    rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai

    So, every once in a while there is a RANT contest, and whoever wins get a lolly pop. It is an energy efficient, green-certified organic lolly pop made from sugar plants raised on shade grown biodyamic nutrients in a democratizing sustainable culture in central america that embraces the full spectrum of human consciousness, transcendence, altruisma and compassion, peace and harmony.

    this is important stuff, and no one should ever make fun of it.

    [quote comment="57219"]EP wrote:

    “The appalling arrogance and hubris of anyone stating that they, or their completely screwed up and ridiculous religion, can define who has ?turned away? from God is precisely the evidence that backwardness and fanaticism is in full play within the bahai faith.”

    Yes. But why so angry, EP? Isn’t this the posture of most religion: “We have a lock on truth?”

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    EP, When you say:

    “If you look really really really carefully, you will see that this site is titled ?bahairants?.

    The critical syntax to be parsed is ?RANT?. As preceeded by ?BAHAI?.

    rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai ”

    I think you are falling into the trap of yet another test: If we rant every time we are invited our heads will explode.

    In fact I like to rant coolly — it drives the smug fundamentalists crazy and engages the truth seeker in conversation — at least sometimes — at least I hope.

    So I’ll never win the lolly pop but still get one at the bank (probably not any more).

    Cheers,
    Frank

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    EP, When you say:

    “If you look really really really carefully, you will see that this site is titled ?bahairants?.

    The critical syntax to be parsed is ?RANT?. As preceeded by ?BAHAI?.

    rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai ”

    I think you are falling into the trap of yet another test: If we rant every time we are invited our heads will explode.

    In fact I like to rant coolly — it drives the smug fundamentalists crazy and engages the truth seeker in conversation — at least sometimes — at least I hope.

    So I’ll never win the lolly pop but still get one at the bank (probably not any more).

    Cheers,
    Frank

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Farhan Yazdani wrote:

    [quote comment=""]Grover, if you read Genesis carefully, you will see how the serpent suggests to Eve that by eating the fruit (who said it was an apple?), they would become equal with God, acquiring the knowledge of good and evil for their own selves.
    [/quote]

    Also, if you read Genesis closely, you will find that the serpent spoke the truth, whereas God spoke falsely, promising that the knowledge of good and evil would cause instant death.

    So it was, and so it continues. “God” makes false promises about reward and punishment, while the Devil simply speaks the truth. Bad serpent! Don’t tell them the truth! They can’t handle it! Tell them pretty lies about justice in the afterlife, so that they can be ignorant and happy!

    (the old argument between Jesus and the Inquisitor in the Brothers Karamazov)

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Farhan Yazdani wrote:

    [quote comment=""]Grover, if you read Genesis carefully, you will see how the serpent suggests to Eve that by eating the fruit (who said it was an apple?), they would become equal with God, acquiring the knowledge of good and evil for their own selves.
    [/quote]

    Also, if you read Genesis closely, you will find that the serpent spoke the truth, whereas God spoke falsely, promising that the knowledge of good and evil would cause instant death.

    So it was, and so it continues. “God” makes false promises about reward and punishment, while the Devil simply speaks the truth. Bad serpent! Don’t tell them the truth! They can’t handle it! Tell them pretty lies about justice in the afterlife, so that they can be ignorant and happy!

    (the old argument between Jesus and the Inquisitor in the Brothers Karamazov)

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    Dan,

    “So it was, and so it continues. ?God? makes false promises about reward and punishment, while the Devil simply speaks the truth.”

    I find it wonderful that the religion that speaks the least about God or gods (to my knowledge) — Buddhism, — also seems to say less about heaven. Instead it teaches a way to achieve a desirable state of mind.

    Of course once one achieves Buddha mind the perception of reality must change but we can’t know what that will be and to my limited knowledge the Buddhist teachers don’t try to describe what we will experience there.

    We suffer, I think, under the Western religions, which must be cast away, I think before we can truly understand.

    Emerson wrote: ?God builds his temple in the heart on the ruins of churches & religions.?

    Frank

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    Dan,

    “So it was, and so it continues. ?God? makes false promises about reward and punishment, while the Devil simply speaks the truth.”

    I find it wonderful that the religion that speaks the least about God or gods (to my knowledge) — Buddhism, — also seems to say less about heaven. Instead it teaches a way to achieve a desirable state of mind.

    Of course once one achieves Buddha mind the perception of reality must change but we can’t know what that will be and to my limited knowledge the Buddhist teachers don’t try to describe what we will experience there.

    We suffer, I think, under the Western religions, which must be cast away, I think before we can truly understand.

    Emerson wrote: ?God builds his temple in the heart on the ruins of churches & religions.?

    Frank

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Hi Frank,

    Can I call Thoreauvianism a western religion? If so, this may be considered one of its commandments:

    “One world at a time.”

    I’m thinking with your Emerson and my Thoreau we can take this joint. Whaddaya say? :-))

    -Dan

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Hi Frank,

    Can I call Thoreauvianism a western religion? If so, this may be considered one of its commandments:

    “One world at a time.”

    I’m thinking with your Emerson and my Thoreau we can take this joint. Whaddaya say? :-))

    -Dan

  • Grover

    Dan wrote:

    [quote post="528"]Also, if you read Genesis closely, you will find that the serpent spoke the truth, whereas God spoke falsely, promising that the knowledge of good and evil would cause instant death.[/quote]

    Haha, good point. It does depend on how you interpret it, symbolically or otherwise.

    I love the bit from Monty Python’s Life of Brian where Jesus goes “Blessed are the cheese makers, the kingdom of heaven shall be their reward.”

    And one of the audience says, “why only the cheese makers?”

    And another replies “No no no, its not meant to be taken literally, he means all manufacturers of dairy products.”

  • Grover

    Dan wrote:

    [quote post="528"]Also, if you read Genesis closely, you will find that the serpent spoke the truth, whereas God spoke falsely, promising that the knowledge of good and evil would cause instant death.[/quote]

    Haha, good point. It does depend on how you interpret it, symbolically or otherwise.

    I love the bit from Monty Python’s Life of Brian where Jesus goes “Blessed are the cheese makers, the kingdom of heaven shall be their reward.”

    And one of the audience says, “why only the cheese makers?”

    And another replies “No no no, its not meant to be taken literally, he means all manufacturers of dairy products.”

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Grover writes:

    [quote comment=""]It does depend on how you interpret it, symbolically or otherwise.[/quote]

    For example:

    St. Paul says: “Oh. God said we’d die. Therefore we’re dead.”

    Thus, “the wages of sin is death.”

    Last I checked, it wasn’t a Christian that wrote Genesis. Probably wasn’t a Jew either. Maybe an Armenian court jester.

    Yours,
    Dan

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Grover writes:

    [quote comment=""]It does depend on how you interpret it, symbolically or otherwise.[/quote]

    For example:

    St. Paul says: “Oh. God said we’d die. Therefore we’re dead.”

    Thus, “the wages of sin is death.”

    Last I checked, it wasn’t a Christian that wrote Genesis. Probably wasn’t a Jew either. Maybe an Armenian court jester.

    Yours,
    Dan

  • ep

    I’m sure that once the lolly pop paradigm becomes integrated into bahai, you will be able to lick any problem.

    And feeeeeeeeeel goooooooooooood.

    make methane, not war.

    [quote comment="57282"]EP, When you say:

    “If you look really really really carefully, you will see that this site is titled ?bahairants?.

    The critical syntax to be parsed is ?RANT?. As preceeded by ?BAHAI?.

    rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai ”

    I think you are falling into the trap of yet another test: If we rant every time we are invited our heads will explode.

    In fact I like to rant coolly — it drives the smug fundamentalists crazy and engages the truth seeker in conversation — at least sometimes — at least I hope.

    So I’ll never win the lolly pop but still get one at the bank (probably not any more).

    Cheers,
    Frank

  • ep

    I’m sure that once the lolly pop paradigm becomes integrated into bahai, you will be able to lick any problem.

    And feeeeeeeeeel goooooooooooood.

    make methane, not war.

    [quote comment="57282"]EP, When you say:

    “If you look really really really carefully, you will see that this site is titled ?bahairants?.

    The critical syntax to be parsed is ?RANT?. As preceeded by ?BAHAI?.

    rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai rant bahai ”

    I think you are falling into the trap of yet another test: If we rant every time we are invited our heads will explode.

    In fact I like to rant coolly — it drives the smug fundamentalists crazy and engages the truth seeker in conversation — at least sometimes — at least I hope.

    So I’ll never win the lolly pop but still get one at the bank (probably not any more).

    Cheers,
    Frank

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    Hi Dan,

    You said:

    Hi Frank,

    Can I call Thoreauvianism a western religion? If so, this may be considered one of its commandments:

    ?One world at a time.?

    I’m thinking with your Emerson and my Thoreau we can take this joint. Whaddaya say? :-))

    -Dan”

    I don’t think Thoreau and Emerson wanted followers but they got ‘em anyway.

    Thoreau was a disciple of Emerson’s and the UU church has been strongly influenced by Emerson as well. Yet he wanted no followers.

    So no I don’t think Thoreauvianism is a religion. I hope its not!!

    Not a religion but a way to live if you so choose. Its a way based on the importance of the human mind and conscience not on revelation to one sacred soul. This is a way that has changed thinking in America and I think mostly it been positive.

    But to engage in Emersonianism or Thoreauvianism you must love to read and think. Too many people dismiss these boys today. They don’t offer simple laws nor do they promise eternal life or salvation — just a better relationship with the world we live in and better living moment to moment day to day.

    I’ll take it and I wish it on as many people who embrace it.

    Peace,
    Frank

  • http://frankwinters.wordpress.com/ Frank Winters

    Hi Dan,

    You said:

    Hi Frank,

    Can I call Thoreauvianism a western religion? If so, this may be considered one of its commandments:

    ?One world at a time.?

    I’m thinking with your Emerson and my Thoreau we can take this joint. Whaddaya say? :-))

    -Dan”

    I don’t think Thoreau and Emerson wanted followers but they got ‘em anyway.

    Thoreau was a disciple of Emerson’s and the UU church has been strongly influenced by Emerson as well. Yet he wanted no followers.

    So no I don’t think Thoreauvianism is a religion. I hope its not!!

    Not a religion but a way to live if you so choose. Its a way based on the importance of the human mind and conscience not on revelation to one sacred soul. This is a way that has changed thinking in America and I think mostly it been positive.

    But to engage in Emersonianism or Thoreauvianism you must love to read and think. Too many people dismiss these boys today. They don’t offer simple laws nor do they promise eternal life or salvation — just a better relationship with the world we live in and better living moment to moment day to day.

    I’ll take it and I wish it on as many people who embrace it.

    Peace,
    Frank

  • sinfe

    you are a real bahai

    all non good bahais are garbage

    bravo

  • bibiana

    cleansing the Faith

    bravo you are a real muhammadan-bahai-muslim bravo

  • bibiana

    cleansing the Faith

    bravo you are a real muhammadan-bahai-muslim bravo

  • Mark Townsend

    Don't think you know everything. We are only 160 years into this Cycle of 500,000 years. And you think you know better how to organize a planet?

  • Amado

    Thanks for a lovely metaphor – I will laugh every time I ride my Chinese Vespa!
    Amado

  • Oscar Wilde

    The point. Is. This: .

    Elsewhere I stated how I believe the baha'i faith is now corrupted. It is a law of these sorts of systems (religions), they have a flaw. Did Baha'u'llah predict what the baha'i community would become? Possibly not. Did Christ want the Church to shed innocent blood? No, he has just done his job. All the rest is mankind's karma.

    So yeah, I think this is the point. There is no covenant or covenant breaking. It is man's inventions. Not God given. Can't be sure, but that's what I think. Hope I'm right. Certainly it is taken over-seriously and based on HUGE fear…whoever goes against the “covenant” is damned for eternity. Did God really say that…

  • fubar

    Mark,

    You don't have to “know everything” to understand the dysfunctional human behavior which has “infected” haifan bahaism (and many other organizations).

    One of the primary signs of such dysfunction are the way that nonconformists, critics and dissidents are marginalized and attacked.

    Your attempt to attack and marginalize Craig's perspective is a good example of bahai groupthink and conformism.

    In a dysfunctional organization, “bureaucratic reinvention” and “scapegoating” are rife.

    There is a large body of information about the psychological archetypes involved if you really want to understand the truth.

    Which brings up another “red flag”: instead of being a religion of truth, haifan bahaism has become a religion of deception, lies and delusion.

    So, no, people do not have to “know everything”. In fact most people that do not have an attachment to delusions and dysfunctionality intuitively “get” that something is wrong with haifan bahaism fairly quickly.

    It can then take a while to come to a full realization of what the problems are.

    Thus, this blog.

    Open sharing of information (one of the original purposes of democracy: an open knowledge commons) is a sign of a “healthy” organization.

    haifan bahai culture is hostile to such openness.

    These are a few, basic points, read past threads on this blog for more.

    If you can tolerate reality instead of being brainwashed.

  • fubar

    Covenant Breaking = The Mother of All Scapegoating.

    CBs, “disenrolled” bahais, etc. allow dysfunctional haifan bahaism to “project” its dysfunctionality onto “others”.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Gray/100001692531472 Stephen Gray

    Generally, non-Baha’is will mostly have problems with preposition 3 mostly if not any of the others. It assumes there haven’t been any more latter messengers. It also assumes that Baha’u’llah is a messenger.

    The problem with 5 is that alot of his writings haven’t been translated at all.

    Most people believe in God, so number 1 isn’t much of a problem for most people.

    Neither is 2, except for Deists.

    Number 5 implies a faith in translators which really requires knowledge of the original languages.

    Number 3 implictly makes reference to the 1000 year haitus on messengers. It prevents Baha’i from taking the claims of people living in the post Baha period seriously ie 1892-2892. Logic dictates that people always consider new evidence to revise their premises. It’s illogical to say that no messengers will come in a time period. If a messenger comes, it has problematic implications for Baha’is but ignoring it under said pretense is ignorant.

  • Wahid Azal

    Dan, maybe the Serpent was really God and the old, grumpy man in the garden speaking untruth to Adam and Eve was just a mirage, or maybe the true Devil.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Gray/100001692531472 Stephen Gray

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

    Gnostic Christianity discussed Adam and Eve in two known surviving texts, namely the “Apocalypse of Adam” found in the Nag Hammadi documents and the “Testament of Adam”. The creation of Adam as Protanthropos, the original man, is the focal concept of these writings.

    The Manichean conception of Adam and Eve is pessimistic.
    According to them, the copulative action of two demons, Adam and Eve
    were born to further imprison the soul in the material universe.

    “Mani said, ‘Then Jesus came and spoke to the one who had been born,
    who was Adam, and … made him fear Eve, showing him how to suppress
    (desire) for her, and he forbade him to approach her… Then that (male) Archon
    came back to his daughter, who was Eve, and lustfully had intercourse
    with her. He engendered with her a son, deformed in shape and possessing
    a red complexion, and his name was Cain, the Red Man.’”[11]

    Another Gnostic tradition held that Adam and Eve were created to help
    defeat Satan. The serpent, instead of being identified with Satan, is
    seen as a hero by the Ophites.
    Still other Gnostics believed that Satan’s fall, however, came after
    the creation of humanity. As in Islamic tradition, this story says that
    Satan refused to bow to Adam due to pride. Satan said that Adam was
    inferior to him as he was made of fire, whereas Adam was made of clay.
    This refusal led to the fall of Satan recorded in works such as the Book of Enoch.

    Gnosticism
    was an important development of (and departure from) early
    Christianity, blending Jewish scriptures and Christian teachings with
    traditional pagan religion and esoteric Greek philosophical concepts. An
    important Gnostic text, the Apocryphon of John, reports that the chief archon caused the flood because he desired to destroy the world he had made, but the First Thought
    informed Noah of the chief archon’s plans, and Noah informed the
    remainder of humanity. Unlike the account of Genesis, not only are
    Noah’s family saved, but many others also heed Noah’s call. There is no
    ark in this account; instead Noah and the others hide in a “luminous
    cloud”.

    Yes, interpretations have varied.

  • Amado DeDios

    Interesting that this link about those devilish CBs should discuss evil and the devil. Because – unless this too is an illusion or a delusion – God may be crazy! Because we see that, when something cruel and ugly happens and people leave, this is “actually” a purification ritual! When the smartest, most learned people are thrown out by the infallible wisdom of some guys who at one point needed someone around with a veto, but no longer need any oversight at all, this is divine wisdom, unfathomable to any but the “pure” – back to square one! Fortunately, the Bab says to worship without worrying about whether one gets heaven or the fire!

  • Craig

    Hi Amado,

    I love your posts! Yes. When you throw everyone out who can think and who has a conscience it is going to get pretty grim at some point down the road. It all turned into the same old, same old of all the Abrahamic religions. Witch hunts. Trials by dunking into water tubs. Tribunals. Inquiries by Grand Inquisitors in masked robes. Bend over and kiss people’s rings. The New Clergy Class. Cowards in a mass dupe electorate of mentally ill dunces. Every psychological exchange just another Era of addiction to the Mommy. Daddy. Potty. projection meme. Many people had hoped for something much better than this. But this is how it all went. Unless you are doing Ruhi 24/7/365/1000/500,000 and going door to door recruiting for the top down system you are the “Enemy of God” and will be hunted down like a dog and branded with a big “CB” on your forehead by the thought police. And some point you risk being summarily kicked out by First Class Post and told you were “never a Baha’i” to begin with no mater how many LSA’s, DTC’s, or Service Committees you served on in decades in the Faith. You are just erased from the Monuments. They won’t even give you your money back. The Faith can be changed from the top at any time, for any reason  depending on what incestuous clique of “Professional Clergy” now holds “lifetime incumbency”. I want no part of it. I will most definitely not be buried a Baha’i. It is just too embarrassing. I will never sit in the same room with weak people who allowed this to be done to their religion.  But the World Age will go on and built by Free Thinkers while the Baha’is stew in their own juices, suffocate, and become dust. choking on the top down meal of Administration fried dirt.

    I just go on living by the Sufi insights of the Kitab-I-Iqan. A marvelously useful book in trying to get into the movie business. It is one of the best “Archetypal Screenwriting” books every written. It teaches you how to foretell many Fates in life. Good stuff!

    So it goes.

    Best to you!

    Craig

  • Fubar

    Craig & All,

    Turns out that evolution explains the archetypes:

    http://www.des.ucdavis.edu/faculty/Richerson/GruterFESSRNversion.pdf
     
    The above paper describes why it took 50,000 years of human evolution for free enterprise economics to develop, and why the evolutionary evidence indicates that the mantra of “rational self-interest” promoted by Coporatists and Plutocrats is pure “b.s.” !!

    The paper also explains the evolutionary building blocks of religion, and their origins in brain chemistry and tribal social structures.

    (linked from
    http://www.des.ucdavis.edu/faculty/Richerson/recent%20cultutral%20new.htm )

  • Fubar

    test