Baha’i Rants

Pey wrote : Fortunately I don't think that the Bahais would ever regress to such horrible tactics as in the past..

I don’t believe that for one minute either; I am sure that diversity of religions and traditions will persist, and the extent to which a Baha’i inspired state would allow gay marriages and polygamy outside the boundaries of our spiritual commitments and beliefs depends no doubt on the results of consultation in that state at a given time. There is a huge difference between spiritual prescription which we are free to “accept or leave” and state enforced penal offences that can lead to civil sanctions. I continue to believe that those who are offended by women in bikini or in veils, should choose live where they are not common.

well as long as a Bahai inspired state doesn't have penal codes that would imprison or deny rights to people who don't prescribe to strict Bahai law, then we are ok. But your previous posts don't lead me to believe that- nor what most traditional Bahais believe will be the future Bahai commomwealth. So if you feel insulted by what I fear could be the worse, then so be it.

Sorry maybe I misunderstood you when you said: "Who knows, we might have Taliban states as a choice for those who still prefer them, unless the Baha’i inspired states allow for Taliban principles within them. "
I thought you were saying that there will be a varied forms of Bahai states in the future-some Taliban like and others more liberal. But please Farhan, you can take your self-righteous indignation and keep it to yourself. As a Bahai, I am insulted by the thought of creating a Bahai state where people's freedoms are limited and their only option is to get up and leave. Many of us Bahais feel highly insulted by what you describe. But you have the right to your opinion.

Pey wrote : Many of us Bahais feel highly insulted by what you describe. But you have the right to your opinion.

What do which Baha’is feel insulting in what I described ?

Oh was this the same Constantine who had thousands of fellow Christians executed because their interpretation of the Bible didn't equal his? Thanks but I don't want a Bahai state like that either. Fortunately I don't think that the Bahais would ever regress to such horrible tactics as in the past, but I do believe that a strict control of a society where no one can discuss issues such as gay couples getting married and raising children (which is just ONE issue farhan that I care about; there are many more in the Bahai community). this is will not be a healthy society. And your solution is that such people just get up and leave. You said so yourself. How is that different from Baquia suggesting the same thing for the Bahais in Iran who are facing persecution? Again just the level of persecution?

Pey wrote: So there would be Taliban like Bahai states that have strict enforcement of Bahai law as dictated by the UHJ (no recognition of gay families or their ability to adopt)

Pey, I don’t believe there would ever be “Taliban like Baha’i states”, but you are free to imagine such a scenario that is insulting to my fellow Baha’is if you wish. We have enough to worry about for the survival of our planet at this time, and you are already in yourown priority with a scenario of gay relations and adoption in some centuries.

Pey wrote: But you believe that a future state that submits to the UHJ will try to enforce Bahai laws (with no didscussion on the validity of these laws or the ability to change them).
Farhan: In a science fiction scenario, I can imagine that in some centuries, the UHJ could be an arbitrating institution, applying Baha’i principles to any democratic system of government wishing to seek that arbitration. For the time being, the UHJ interprets this by ruling out discrimination against gays, but considering that this way of life and belief is not in tune with those who wish to call themselves Baha’is.

Pey: And you said if people don't enjoy such a Bahai state, then they can get up and move to another state that doesn't apply Bahai law.
Farhan: In a science fiction scenario, I can imagine that a Baha’i state would have attractive attributes; otherwise people would not have adopted its principles, like Constantine adopted Christianity 300 years after Christ. Apparently the only aspect of life in a Baha’i state that interests you would be the liberalisation or not of gay relations, without considering the fact that lacking spiritualisation and arbitration, life could entirely disappear on this planet. If masses of other people would prefer the Baha’i principles to no principles or other social principles, would you want to prevent adopting them? Who knows, we might have Taliban states as a choice for those who still prefer them, unless the Baha’i inspired states allow for Taliban principles within them.

So there would be Taliban like Bahai states that have strict enforcement of Bahai law as dictated by the UHJ (no recognition of gay families or their ability to adopt) and maybe there will be States that don't care to follow everything the UHJ dictates (oh sorry, "suggests"). So again we are left with having to flee a Bahai Taliban type state to one that is more liberal and accepting of all. Also, I bring up the "gay" issue because it is a personal matter to me AND because it describes very well the scary scenario of a state functioning on strict adherence to Bahai law. With no ability to discuss or change those laws. If they are set in stone, then the future is very scary for anyone who happens to be gay and wanting to establish a family in a strict Bahai society. The only choice then really is leave for somewhere that is more tolerant while you can.

Pey wrote: So there would be Taliban like Bahai states that have strict enforcement of Bahai law as dictated by the UHJ (no recognition of gay families or their ability to adopt)

Pey, I don’t believe there would ever be “Taliban like Baha’i states”, but you are free to imagine such a scenario that is insulting to my fellow Baha’is if you wish. We have enough to worry about for the survival of our planet at this time, and you are already in your own priority with a scenario of gay relations and adoption in some centuries.

Pey wrote: So there would be Taliban like Bahai states that have strict enforcement of Bahai law as dictated by the UHJ (no recognition of gay families or their ability to adopt)

Pey, I don’t believe there would ever be “Taliban like Baha’i states”, but you are free to imagine such a scenario that is insulting to my fellow Baha’is if you wish. We have enough to worry about for the survival of our planet at this time, and you are already in yourown priority with a scenario of gay relations and adoption in some centuries.

Pey: The intolerance IS in the application of Bahai laws to all of society.
Farhan: I am not at all sure that in a Baha’i state, Baha’i principles would be applied to everyone, Christians having to celebrate mass with Coca Cola instead of wine, Muslims obliged to eat pork and unitarians prevented fro celebrating gay marriages. Some 30,000 US citizens are claiming the right to polygamy, and perhaps as many would claim the right to excision in France, both secular states with no religious laws inforced.
Pey: As a gay person, I would NOT have the opportunity to marry whom I choose to marry or adopt children with a partner in the Bahai state you envision. That is intolerance against me.
Farhan: What on earth makes you believe that Baha’i laws on personal status would be applied to non-Baha’is, and that Unitarians would be prevented from celebrating gay marriages, and Mormons from polygamy? I don’t get your point. I expect that the independent search for truth will be enforced, and only those who claim they believed in Baha’i principles would be accounted for as Baha’is and expected to apply Baha’i principles; I expect that secular states arbitrated by the UHJ would allow for some latitude. Would it be that lacking motives for grudge against the UHJ, you are projecting what they might do to you in a few centuries?

No if only it was that sweet and innocent Farhas. But you believe that a future state that submits to the UHJ will try to enforce Bahai laws (with no didscussion on the validity of these laws or the ability to change them). And you said if people don't enjoy such a Bahai state, then they can get up and move to another state that doesn't apply Bahai law. The intolerance IS in the application of Bahai laws to all of society. As a gay person, I would NOT have the opportunity to marry whom I choose to marry or adopt children with a partner in the Bahai state you envision. That is intolerance against me. And my only choice is to move. In Iran today, Bahai marriages are not recognized. That is an intolerance, so do you recommend that the Bahais in Iran move to other countries? You seem to say no. But if it is a Bahai state where a person is being discriminated against, then you say it is better for them to leave than to stir trouble. I don't get it.

Thanks for the link, Darian, very helpful!

"Do you wisely believe that people should flee all over the planet whenever the times get tough and their ideals are questioned?"
Now THAT is funny Farhan. I just caught this question you asked of Baquia, yet in another thread where we discussed your version of a future Bahai state you said: "Pey, if in a few centuries some states will have adopted Baha’i principles, perhaps some others may have not, and everyone will have the choice of choosing the state where to live, instead of living in a Baha’i state and trying to reform it’s laws." So do you still believe that in a future Bahai State if people don't like what they see, then they should leave or not leave as in Iran today.

Pey wrote: So do you still believe that in a future Bahai State if people don't like what they see, then they should leave or not leave as in Iran today

Pey, no one is talking about fleeing; at this time people choose the climate and social surroundings that suit them best. I see nothing in any Baha'i teaching that would indicate that a future Baha'i commonwealth would be intolerant like some states you want to compare it to. The only sign of "intolerance" I see complained about here are the "whispers" within the community and unenrolment of those who frankly and openly express their disbelief in the essential beliefs of a Faith which like all other Faiths is based on belief: no deportation, no persecution, no obligation to convert or to deny their beliefs, …. Just the honesty and clarity of not counting as a believer someone who openly declares he does not believe.

"Tell the rich of the midnight sighing of the poor."
Baha'u'llah see www.profitsharinguprising.com

Abdul'Baha has the answer to the global economic crisis; 20%-25%
profitsharing for workers, over and above wages. see www.profitsharinguprising.com

Baquia, When I participate in Baha’i elections, I do not vote for people who will become involved in political matters: I vote for secular politicians for this purpose; I want Baha’i administrators who will help advance my spiritual life. Baha’i SED programmes are not philanthropic programmes, but rather programmes who teach Baha’is to become efficient in sustainable long term prosperity and not short term paternalistic assistance. Again I suggest that you open up your vision to a plus global right brain vision.

Baquia wrote:
It is hypocritical for a Faith to talk about unity and equality but to only do something when its own interests are involved.

Baquia, when I give money to Baha’i funds, it is earmarked for my spiritual life: monuments and gardens, helping Baha’i institutions around the world, and publishing Baha’i books are part of my intentions. Being a substitute for French Doctors, UNICEF, OXFAM and other organisations is not part of my intent. I contribute directly to them when I wish to do so. Saudi Arabia, Bill Gates, the Agha Khan and others are doing far better than we could ever do.

Pey wrote: explain then to me the Bahais in Cambodia during Khmer Rouge

Pey, I am not competent in what happend in Cambodia, but similar situations have existed and still exist in Africa. What I know is that it is extremely urgent to spiritualise the planet if we want human life to persis here. Speaking up is unfortunately insufficient ; we need a change in hearts and minds. As to why the UHJ chooses to speak up or not to speak up in specific cases, perhaps you might wish to refer it to them ?

They are defending HUMAN RIGHTS Farhan. That is why they also defend feminists who do the same in Iran. That is why they also defend gay activists who also do the same in Iran (with almost if not more detriment to their safety than Bahais). You act as if the Bahais in Iran are the only brave souls standing up for Human Rights. Shirin Ebadi is a NOT a Bahai but fights for the rights of Bahais and others in Iran- because it is the correct thing to do. Don't you wish the same for the Bahai AO and our community in general?

Pey wrote : You act as if the Bahais in Iran are the only brave souls standing up for Human Rights.

Pey they are not only defending human rights, but they are defending the DEFENDANTS of human rights; it so happens that why the Baha’is and world public opinion are defending the persecuted Baha’is at this time is the very subject of this thread. What other brave souls are doing is not the present subject, but this does not belittle their merits.

ok that post was utternly confusing. I really don't understand what you are saying.

Pey wrote: ok that post was utternly confusing. I really don't understand what you are saying.

Pey, billions are having their human rights trampled. They are all in our minds and prayers; we tend to more specially rise to defend those like Shirin Obadi, Gandhi or MLK who are defendants of human rights; If the Baha’is are persecuted in some countries it is specifically because of their engagement in values that defend human rights that irritate those violating such rights. If world public opinion is at this time in favour of Baha’is in Iran, it is not because they are just some of those billions of suffering people, but because they are champions of human rights.

Pey wrote: When you say that these 7 people are being defended for their "ideals" not just the grand ideal of Human Rights that values ALL human beings.

Pey, look up on Google the reactions across the world, not the Baha’i ones. What are they defending? People with jobs or families, or people with an ideal that can save their country and brave enough to speak up in a country where every one is being silenced? It is the ideals that are being defended, above the rights of the people holding them.

Pey wrote: You seriously are saying that the only protest that makes sense is to protest on behalf of Iranian Bahais (and maybe Egyptian ones).

No, Pey, I am saying that these people are being persecuted solely for speaking up so as to give a precious message to humanity. I am also saying that various other causes are in fields being defended by people more competent than I. I have been in a position to defend the health rights of people in Brittany and the battered women in Polynesia, and I have done so. Baha’is are in a better position to defend the rights of their fellow believers and the UHJ is responsible for the rights of those who arise serve the Cause. Do you seriously feel that the US gvt is as responsible for American citizens as for non-Americans around the world?

explain then to me the Bahais in Cambodia during Khmer Rouge. Since you believe that we really can only defend on our and should just shut up about others. Why did we not defend the Cambodian Bahais Farhan? If I'm wrong, show me where the Bahai AO has defended Bahais outside of the context of the Middle East being persecuted by Islamic fanatics. The last time I remember any such comments came from Shoghi Effendi mentioning the persecution of Bahais under communism. Nothing since then. So let's put aside all other people in the word and say who cares about them, but just show me how we stand up for our own Bahais who have been persecuted because of a non-Islamic political regime.

Thank you, Baquia. This issue has been really getting up my nose lately.

Baquia, I believe I have read here before the claim that the UHJ has had a policy of discouraging Iranian Baha'is from seeking residence in other countries. Am I remembering that correctly? If so, do you have a source you can reference for that?

What I've said before is that in contrast to the policy which was enacted after the '79 Iranian revolution, Baha'is are strongly discouraged from leaving Iran and encouraged to stay in Iran. Outside Baha'is are also discouraged from traveling to Iran, not because of any perceived danger to themselves, but because the UHJ believes that they may influence Baha'is inside Iran to want to leave.

The source of this is the publicly available letters that have been written to Baha'is inside Iran and Iranian believers outside Iran. As well, it is self-evident by the PR campaign to pressure the IRI to stop persecuting Baha'is but the lack of any attempt to mobilize the same assistance that was extended to Baha'is leaving Iran (back in '79 and onwards). Today, Baha'is that decide to leave Iran (and yes, there are many) are on their own, receiving no assistance whatsoever from the institutions - in contrast to the immediate aftermath of the revolution.

For example, Douglas Martin, before becoming a UHJ member, was one of the Baha'is who was hand-picked to be extremely active in meeting with government officials and helping Baha'is that had escaped Iran to find new homes in free Western countries. Today, no such person or any institution has taken up such activities.

And it's not just our brethren, but our brethren in the Middle East. I remember someone tellign me once that tons of Cambodian Bahais came to the US as boat people, but they quickly became inactive. Many were upset especially in the 80's when they saw so much attention given to the persecution in Iran, when the Bahais never spoke up for them. Yes folks, Bahais died for their religion under the Khmer Rouge. But according to them, the Bahais never spoke up. Would it have seemed too "political" to do so?

Pey wrote: Yes folks, Bahais died for their religion under the Khmer Rouge. But according to them, the Bahais never spoke up. Would it have seemed too "political" to do so?

Pey, seeing people “speak out” is obviously comforting, but what the world needs most is to hear that a remedy is at hand; does “speaking up” change much in a world where catastrophes are assailing us and nature on all sides?

Hundreds of innocent civilians died in ex-Yugoslavia, but when the UN soldiers were shot down by snipers, international pressure led to intervention: not because these soldiers were better humans, but because they represented something, they symbolised a higher ideal. Policemen are no better humans than others, but they represent and symbolise law and order.
Baha’is are no better than others. All those in prison now knew what they was in store for when they accepted serving the community and through that community, Iran and humanity. Their cherished desire is not being saved, but having their efforts be of use for the cause of humanity. If you were convinced that the cause you are serving is the remedy for the ills of humanity, then you would want to consecrate every minute of it to advancing that cause. You would not wish to die, but to use your life in service, and would wish you had a thousand more lives to consecrate to that same cause.

What moves the Baha’i world and the world at large to the defence of these seven persons is not that they are any better than others because they call themselves Baha’is, but that they are precious servants of that noble cause.

So 7 IRANIAN Bahais being defended is to spread the remedy at hand. But defending hundreds (possibly more) Bahais in Cambodia would not have been. Saving Iranian Bahais from Islamic persecution- good PR. Saving other Bahais from religious persecution caused by a political regime- bad PR? I don't get it Farhan, but ok. Of course, I could be totally wrong. Maybe the UHJ during the horrible Khmer rouge did speak up against the persecution of our brethren in that country. I just know what I heard from people who tried to include boat people in their community when they came to the US.

Pey wrote : So 7 IRANIAN Bahais being defended is to spread the remedy at hand. But defending hundreds (possibly more) Bahais in Cambodia would not have been.

Pey, do you seriously think that if teh UHJ had « spoken up » with protestations, this would have saved the lives of these poor people ?

farhan, you are UNbelieveable. Do you read what you write?

Farhan listen to yourself please! You seriously are saying that the only protest that makes sense is to protest on behalf of Iranian Bahais (and maybe Egyptian ones). And everwhere else we remain silent. You will say anything to justify the actions of the AO- period- even when it is seems like pure hypocrisy. Please don't get me wrong. I will fight tooth and nail to support the Bahais in Iran. But I will do the same for others- especially if they are my Bahai brothers and sisters being killed for their religion. I don't care if the persecutors are mullahs, communists, or whoever. HOw difficult is this to understand. Baquia I don't blame you for shaking your head in disbelief.

farhan, I am sad to hear you say this. Truly saddened. All life is sacred. Making such hypocritical distinctions is in direct conflict with the spirit animating the Baha'i Faith and it is the cause of untold injustices. I pray that one day your eyes are opened to the true reality.

Baquia wrote: farhan, I am sad to hear you say this. Truly saddened. All life is sacred. Making such hypocritical distinctions is in direct conflict with the spirit animating the Baha'i Faith and it is the cause of untold injustices. I pray that one day your eyes are opened to the true reality.

Baquia, What is so hypocritical ? After all I am here so that you can open my eyes. You no doubt consider that Baha’is are merely interested in publicizing, gaining a good public opinion, ready to sacrifice countless innocent lives of their fellow believers, in order to get publicity ?

no that is how YOU are coming across farhan. When you say that these 7 people are being defended for their "ideals" not just the grand ideal of Human Rights that values ALL human beings. Listen to what you are saying.

SF wrote:

"I thought at first that this blog had gone the way of alot of other thought control sites. "

Priceless!

The new format is making it more difficult to make comments. I thought at first that this blog had gone the way of alot of other thought control sites.

Well what do my sunny friends of a year ago think of the current state of economic affairs?

It seems to be compelling us to pause and consider prophecy and nature of the changes that are being forced by necessity upon the world. Apparently the old ways of competitive, environmentally exploitive capitalism are not sustainable. Nor are the materialistic habits of consumption and isolation in media bubbles.

We do live in interesting times.

Thank you for posting this, Baquia. MacEoin's letter really is right on, unfortunately.

I would welcome the sight of the Baha'i International Community petitioning world leaders for immediate help to the droves of recently arrested Iranian feminists. Seems unlikely.

Yep. That pretty much says it all.

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

http://www.sophieschollmovie.com/

If the Baha'is had built up an exemplary record as champions of God given human rights in every land, the entire world would be in the streets right now to defend them over this idiotic outrage. The whole entire world. People all over the world would be ready to mop the floor with acne faced teenage Islamic fundamentalists with bayonets held to their faces. March on Gitmo too as an equal outrage. Baha'is would then not have to write to U.S. Senators and Congressmen for help in hapless cognitive dissonance "non-political" action.

My prayers are with these people imprisoned by their own hapless blind imitation "Abrahamic religion" obsessed dysfunctional DNA impaired countrymen. But my prayers were also with my oldest sister and her husband on the ground in Afghanistan for seven long years getting medical help at the village level to nine and a half million people. At any time they could have been captured and beheaded. They lived with that possibility every single day. But at least they did something useful. The Afghans faithfully read their Koran. My sister faithfully read her Kurt Vonnegut. Both were pious. Now they are back home for good and I am happy.

In the U.S.A. we live in a country indeed founded on basic spiritual laws by our perceptive and observant Founders who also basically believed that 98% of all religious people in the history of the world are completely mentally ill. And they basically put that into law with the separation of Church and State. The ideas and inspiration of the remaining 2% are indeed very important people in the progress of humanity. But 98% are not and never have been. These are the idiots who kill and oppress other human beings in the name of God and they must ALWAYS kept out of power. These are the people who turn their minds and consciences over to hapless dip s**t spiritually illiterate hapless clergy in every land.

Deeds not words is the only protection in life. Actually protesting human rights violations everywhere in the world is much more efficient than dying.

But at least they will have these words as some sort of consolation as other "religious" and "pious" people murder them. Right?

"O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain."
(Baha’u’llah, Gleanings CLII)

So it goes.

Craig quoted :
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Craig, the big question is whether it is sufficient to speak out, scream out or even overthrow tyrants, if at the same time we do not bring about a spiritual change in human minds and souls.

My understanding of the Baha’i principles is that before any reform can function, we need a spiritual foundation. This is where the Baha’is are concentrating their efforts : build up a community on spiritual basis so that speaking out will be at last effective.

So when it comes to others' suffering, we shouldn't speak out because we are trying to lay the "foundation". But when it comes to our brethren, then it is ok to speak out against tyranny and injustice. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Danot wrote: Although tragic and unjust, the treatment of the Baha’is in Iran is no less tragic and unjust than what is meted out to many groups in Iran.

Danot, I feel there is something missing in your appreciation of the situation; Many of us, including myself would be willing to go to Iran right now and face those charges, if we were convinced that our action would help advance our common cause.

Let us be clear: our primary concern is not only that of the defence of the innocent lives of barbaric social structures, but to defend a Cause that is to defend the lives of countless innocent victims of war, famine, global warming, economical disaster, and the other plagues that are a direct result of the lack of spirituality.

farhan, do you actually read what you write? "our primary concern is ... to defend a Cause that is to defend the lives of countless innocent victims of war, famine, global warming, economical disaster ..."
Both you and I know that the Baha'i Faith, as a community, spends vastly larger sums on itself than helping "innocent victims of war, famine, etc."

That's the whole point I and many others are making. If the Cause was actually defending the lives of innocent and downtrodden... yes. But it isn't. Not by a long shot.

When we spend $300 million to spruce up Mt. Carmel and then spend $3 million on different SED projects... can you see the disconnect? When we spend millions of dollars and man hours doing a PR campaign for Baha'is in IRan and ignore everyone else... can you see the disconnect?

You are an intelligent person but the sheer cognitive dissonance is mind boggling.

Baquia wrote : You are an intelligent person but the sheer cognitive dissonance is mind boggling.

Baquia, since you express surprise at my cognition, I will honour you with some advice : You are functioning essentially on your left brain: your rational faculty, step by step, but you are neglecting your right brain, the part that deals with emotions and gives a global view of this universe. If you were a computer, you would be functioning mainly on your serial port, ignoring the parallel one. I am sure my way of reasoning and the spiritual outlook on life will become much less staggering to you if you enjoyed the explanation here: http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/229

actually I am functioning on emotion, anger and outrage that the Baha'i community would be governed in such a lopsided way that vast resources of material and non-material means are expended towards itself and very little towards helping those truly in need. That we speak out for the safety of Baha'is and are silent when non-Baha'is safety is concerned.
For example, when women's rights are trampled in Iran or elsewhere, we are silent. When minors are executed in Iran, we are silent. When gays are executed in I Iran, we are silent. But when Baha'is are arrested, we swing into action and call our Congressperson seeking justice.

Baquia wrote That we speak out for the safety of Baha'is and are silent when non-Baha'is safety is concerned

Baquia, If I am concerned about the safety of the 7 Baha’is in Iran, it is not merely because they are of the same religion as I am, but because they symbolize an ideal which I consider as essential for the survival of the planet. Thousands are shot down in the world every day, but we have been more concerned with the death of MLK or of Gandhi: not because of their person, but because of the ideal they incarnated.

God this is so cultish and sad. These aren't 7 people- human beings with families, kids, etc. who's lives should be valued just because. No they are "ideals" that we are defending. Good PR to help spread the cause. This time Farhan- you are coming across very clear and I'm not misinterpreting anything. But I am giving a value judgement to what you are saying- and yes it is wrong.

Pey wrote: God this is so cultish and sad. These aren't 7 people- human beings with families, kids, etc. who's lives should be valued just because. No they are "ideals" that we are defending.

Pey, if non-Baha’i public opinion values these Baha’is, is not because they are physically any different, or more precious than all the oppressed peoples of this planet, but because the world is becoming conscious that the ideal they serve is precious to humanity, and that they are being persecuted and rejected because this ideal is unpalatable to some others. Yes, we have progressed beyond considerations of what we might like and dislike and entered the era of what will condemn or save the planet, and you consider this as “cultish”? .

BS farhan. Many people who care for the Bahais in Iran care because it is the right thing to do. Not because they cherish the ideals of the Faith (otherwise they would all become Bahais, right?) Look at my friend Amanda. She is atheist, but she will fight tooth and nail for the rights of Bahais in Iran, because again IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Just as it is the right thing to do to fight for the rights of anyone who is being persecuted by the Iranian government. Why is this so hard to understnad, why are you spinning so much? This one should be very simple.

it is cultish that you believe that it is ok to fight for their rights but not for the rights of gays in Iran, or women in Iran or (insert downtrodden group here) in Iran.
Have you considered a career in politics? seriously, you have a knack for it.

Baquia wrote: it is cultish that you believe that it is ok to fight for their rights but not for the rights of gays in Iran, or women in Iran or (insert downtrodden group here) in Iran. Have you considered a career in politics? seriously, you have a knack for it.

Baquia, it is cultish to believe that you can make a secular philanthropic association out of an institution that is designed to advance the spiritual union of the peoples of this planet, from which unity, peace and sustainable prosperity can emerge. If you were elected as a member of the UHJ, what reforms would you suggest?

Exactly Baquia. Now if I pulled out a letter from the UHJ that shows they actually spoke up about the persecution of Cambodian Bahais, or women in Iran, or hell even gays in Iran, guess what would happen? Farhan would suddenly change tune and tell us how it is in God's plan that we stand up for the rights of these individuals. He moves whichever direction the UHJ puffs. Maybe you are a divinity doctor trying to fine tune your art of apolegetics.

Pey wrote: He moves whichever direction the UHJ puffs. Maybe you are a divinity doctor trying to fine tune your art of apolegetics.

Pey I have to admit you are right. In this respect I am not neutral, and I apologise for having pretended to be so. I now understand that the point of this exchange is not to decide how we can improve the situation of gays within the Faith or advance human rights, but to use these issues to decide if the UHJ is right or wrong. We have obviously not been on the same level of discussion, and I can now understand why people have been getting irritated with me, calling me names.

Baquia wrote : Both you and I know that the Baha'i Faith, as a community, spends vastly larger sums on itself than helping "innocent victims of war, famine, etc."

Baquia, the kind of generous paternalistic « helping » I have watched closely in developing countries, just does not work, but produces humiliation, dependence and resentment. Plenty of wonderful associations and NGOs to which Baha’is contribute are doing a far better job than the Baha’is would ever do.

Baha’is believe that only by a change in mind and spirit, the vast amounts lost in lack of cooperation, if not in war and conflict (some ten thousand billion dollars each year for “defending” ourselves against fellow humans) will be directed towards self-development. I certainly do believe that as Shoghi Effendi explained, not unless and until the spiritual issue at the root of all our ills is remedied, humanity will not attain peace and unity that are at the root of our common prosperity:

"The universal crisis affecting mankind is, therefore, essentially spiritual in its causes. The spirit of the age, taken on the whole, is irreligious. Man's outlook on life is too crude and materialistic to enable him to elevate himself into the higher realms of the spirit.
"It is this condition, so sadly morbid, into which society has fallen, that religion seeks to improve and transform…. The Baha'i Faith, like all other Divine Religions, is thus fundamentally mystic in character. Its chief goal is the development of the individual and society, through the acquisition of spiritual virtues and powers. It is the soul of man which has first to be fed. And this spiritual nourishment prayer can best provide.
"Laws and institutions, as viewed by Baha'u'llah, can become really effective only when our inner spiritual life has been perfected and transformed. Otherwise religion will degenerate into a mere organization, and becomes a dead thing." (Directives from the Guardian, 223)

Sums of money are not the only tools we can use. The fact remains, the Baha'i international community is silent when others are downtrodden and maligned. And only speaks out against injustice when it involves Baha'is.

Baquia wrote : Sums of money are not the only tools we can use. The fact remains, the Baha'i international community is silent when others are downtrodden and maligned. And only speaks out against injustice when it involves Baha'is.
Baquia, it is not because it involves Baha’is as persons, but the actors of the Baha’i cause. If the Baha’is were only concerned by their own comfort and safety, they would not have chosen to go to hostile countries to serve their cause which is tha cause of all humanity AND that of nature. We do believe firmly that spiritualisation is the only means of saving the planet from a programmed auto-destruction.
Baquia, we will all disappear one day; why not consecrate whatever time left to the cause of humanity? Why choose to die miserably in a bed or hiding in a gutter? Don’t you see the discordance between accusing the Baha’is of not fleeing their duties in Iran on one hand, and of their fellow believers complaining about the mistreatment they are suffering from in the same country they bravely are attempting to serve? Do you wisely believe that people should flee all over the planet whenever the times get tough and their ideals are questioned? Why then liberate German occupied France instead of inviting all the French to flee the Nazis? Is that your philosophy in life?
“Even as the swiftness of lightning your days shall pass, and your bodies shall be laid to rest beneath a canopy of dust. What can ye then achieve? How can ye atone for your past failure?” (Baha’u’llah, GWB CLI)

please ply your sophistry elsewhere, with me it won't fly. this is a clear matter: the hypocrisy of being a religion which believes in the unity of mankind, but only speaks out to defend the rights of its own followers.

Baquia wrote : this is a clear matter: the clear hypocrisy of being a religion which believes in the unity of mankind, but only speaks out to defend the rights of its own followers.

Baquia, to me this is a clear case of a religion that like all others, believes that until and unless humanity is spiritually reformed, humankind cannot attain peace, unity and prosperity. You may consider this reasoning as a mistaken one, but you cannot call it hypocrisy. The Baha’is brave dangers: in the 1950s it was Africa, and now it is in Iran. They do not flee in face of their duties, but yes, they do defend themselves. If you have other ways of serving humanity, please share.

I do. Remember Abdul-Baha Farhan? He saved a whole community by storing grain in anticipation of a famine. He knew how to serve humanity.

Pey wrote: Remember Abdul-Baha Farhan? He saved a whole community by storing grain in anticipation of a famine. He knew how to serve humanity.

Do you remember the Baha’i youth in Shiraz, giving their time to poor children, taken to prison? The Iranian TV made a film on that wanting to show how they were doing propaganda, and then the film was removed because they realized that its contents showed their detachment and was in fact giving the Baha’is more popularity. You feel that Baha’is should not call out for the defense these people? And do you think that the non-Baha’i population now increasingly arising to defend these people are doing so because they secretly belong to the Faith or because these people incarnate an ideal they are starting to share?

What?! Bahais SHOULD call out in defense of these people, but they also SHOULD for all people. That's the point of justice Farhan. Otherwise it is hypocrisy. The non-Bahai population stands with the Bahais in Iran because it is the RIGHT thing to do. But they also stand with gays being persecuted, feminists being persecuted, Sunnis being persecuted, academics being persecuted, etc etc. in Iran. But unfortunately WE (meaning the Bahai AO) falls short on this. And YOU wish to defend it's decisions at any cost.

Pey wrote: Bahais SHOULD call out in defense of these people, but they also SHOULD for all people. That's the point of justice Farhan.

Yes Pey, Baha’is have been standing up for these rights of humanity for the last 165 years. My parents sweated it out in Africa for some 4 decades, defending the rights of the down-trodden. Now it is the turn of humanity to defend those who are defending humanity.

farhan, you never miss the opportunity to muddy the waters. No one is talking about your parents. We are talking about the Baha'i community and the institutions that set the agenda and priorities.
For example, during apartheid the Baha'i Faith stood idle and did nothing nor said anything to counter the policies that were clearly against the values that we espouse.
We only speak out when there are Baha'is involved. This is selfish and completely wrong. It is hypocritical for a Faith to talk about unity and equality but to only do something when its own interests are involved.

Danot, If the world opinion is defending these seven people, it is not only for their innocence, but because it is through them that they are defending spiritual values that the Baha’is are now representing. When you burn the stars and stripes, a mere flag, you are not just burning a piece of cloth. You are desecrating a whole nation and the ideals on which it is founded. When you destroy cemeteries, the Bam statues of Buddha or more recently the mosques of the Dervishes, you are not simply destroying mineral substances: you are attacking a spiritual reality.

Do you see the difference?

Yep. I am glad Farhan cleared that up for us as you say. Silence for the plight of others while we build the Ruhiized automaton IQ dropping hapless boobified foundation. Direct political action writing to U.S. Senators and Congressman when it involves OUR people! We are not above letting other political systems send other people's sons and daughters to fight and die to defend our people too as long as we ourselves don't have to do it! Yep. That's the ticket! Send other people to do the dirty work while we sit in endless workbook classes pulling on our puds to "build" the foundation.

Meanwhile, all these people are way past the spiritual limitations of the lifetime incumbent morons that have completely destroyed the Baha'i Faith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG19CgFmtvY

They knew what to do to look out for each other in such a dangerous situation. The Baha'is would have to take a course in how to act in a tunnel trapped with thousands of people first and fill in blanks before they would know what to do. By then everyone would have been trampled to death and dead. Everyone else know what to do: SING.

So much for building the "foundation". The foundation of the grave. Utter morons. Utter completely impaired mass produced talentless idiots.

But the entire rest of the world is moving on and for this grace there is indeed hope. The amazing Power of the Free Born World Age will go on while the hapless workbook group think Baha'is are completely left in the dust.

Everyone have a nice weekend!

Since my degree is in Economics I spend most of my time these days on the amazing economic blogs in the crisis. There is some fine economic thinking going on across the world in the planetary blogosphere. The Baha'is apparently have nothing to say about the technical machinery of economics that are going to have to get us out of this terrible crisis. Does anyone know if Peter Khan is giving three hour breathless speeches on Lord Keynes or the Austrian School these days? But, of course, people who actually are educated and can actually think independently on these topics are in the current ideology of the Baha'is "infected with ego, self, and passion" and "completely corrupted by Western ideas from the Renaissance" and will, therefore, "in the end sink in their depths."

Still I would love to hear Peter Khan's endless possible insights to frozen captive Baha'i audiences worldwide on his breathtaking personal opinions on Carl Menger, Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk and Ludwig von Mises? Or his take on what might be the ticking 1931 Viennese Credit-Anstalt event out there over the horizon in the Age of Credit Default Swaps? I am sure he has to have an opinion on this just like he seems to have an opinion that he thinks everyone in the entire world wants to hear on every other topic in human history. I can't wait until his new diet book comes out. I am sure he must be writing one of those too.

So it goes.

Craig wrote :
Send other people to do the dirty work while we sit in endless workbook classes pulling on our puds to "build" the foundation.

Dear Craig, Baha’u’llah invited the worlds leaders of His time to reconcile and do what you call “God’s work” by setting up the most Great Peace. They rejected His invitation and He then invited them to the lesser Peace, towards which we are now painfully working.

Making mistakes and assuming the consequences is part of this learning process. One of these mistakes is to believe, as Mao taught, that before we can construct anything, we first have to demolish. This is part of what you call “God’s work”. The world is becoming very smart in demolishing enterprises, but very backwards as builders. We have millions screaming their heads off accusing each other of all the very defects that Baha’u’llah invited us to correct 150 years back, but no one has a remedy to suggest.

Baha’is are concentring on preparing the coming world order, starting at grass roots, with the spiritualization of our own neighbourhood, instead of running around and fighting evil by “speaking up” as Don Quichottes or trying to pull strings at commandment levels... Time will show who was right. If you look carefully, the Baha’i blueprint is actually working wonders. We have so many millions already pulling down the out-dated world order; it is good time we specialised, don’t you think? Let the demolishers choose to do what they consider as “God’s work” and those who wish to establish a new world order apply their efforts where they think they are the most useful. Let those who wish, can joint the team that suits them best. What is wrong with that?

Yeah it is sad that Bahai authorities will speak up for human rights when it is in line with Bahai doctrine. So they will team up with other religions to condemn general religious persecution in the world, but remain silent for atheists. They will fight for the rights of women (in the context of Bahai thought), but not champion the rights of gays (in fact in some instances work against those rights). But regardless, I still will fight for the rights of the Bahais in Iran because it is the just thing to do. I believe in Bahaullah's utterance in the Hidden Words that the best beloved of all things in God's eyes is justice. And I think He meant it for ALL people.
So in March when I got to Washington D.C. to lobby on behalf of the Human Rights Campaign in front of my senators and congressmen, If given a chance to speak, I will bring up the plight of the Bahais in Iran. I will explain to them how precious human rights are to me because the land where I come from would deny me my basic rights due to both my sexuality and my Faith. Wish me luck!