Baha’u'llah & “The Subject of Boys”

The following contains mature content of a sexual nature so if you are squeamish, a prude or a minor, please move along. Maybe check out some kittehs or bunnies.

The subject of homosexuality continues to be a difficult topic within Baha’i theology. For many it presents an insurmountable challenge to accept the Baha’i Faith and for believers it is a topic of seemingly endless polemics.

There are many approaches we can take to attempt a better understanding of this issue. One of the most basic is to go back to the source and try to understand exactly what the Baha’i writings say.

If we search Baha’u'llah’s writings, we find something quite remarkable. Nowhere in Baha’u'llah’s writings is there an explicit mention of homosexuality (and neither by Abdu’l-Baha). Arguably, the only reference we have is an extremely brief mention in the Aqdas (more on that a bit later).

To understand why there is no wider mention of homosexuality and what exactly Baha’u'llah was referring and what Shoghi Effendi translated to the seemingly cryptic words, “the subject of boys”, we have to take a few steps back.

Sexual dynamics and mores differ greatly between cultures and time periods. What may be accepted sexual behavior at one point in time or within a specific society may be completely unknown or unacceptable in another time or place.

For example, the Sambia of Papua New Guinea believe that ingestion of semen is necessary for a boy to reach full maturity. To that end, starting at age 7, Sambia boys orally stimulate their adolescent peers (14-18) and ingest their semen. Upon reaching puberty, they then provide their semen so that the younger boys can reach full sexual maturity and become men.

To the Sambia, semen is a precious substance which is being gifted from the older generation to the younger to assure their development. The act is done not to derive pleasure but to give a nourishing substance that the Sambia believe is as necessary as mother’s milk. While to us this may seem to have homosexual overtones, to the Sambia this is a natural and necessary part of a boy’s development and has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. In fact, the Sambia view homosexual acts to be as taboo and socially undesirable as incest.

Of course, because we all fall prey to the recency effect, what we see in our present culture is what we consider to be ‘normal’. But actually, ‘normal’ is rather subjective.

The way that we understand and define homosexual relationships today simply did not exist during Baha’u'llah’s time in the Middle East. That is, there was no recognition or allowance for a mutually consensual, exclusive relationship between two adult women (or men) living together and raising children together as a family. Therefore, since this model of family life did not exist, it is not reasonable to expect that the topic be given explicit treatment. Just as we don’t expect Baha’u'llah to have explicitly written about cloning or stem cell research.

That does not mean however that homosexuality did not exist at all in one guise or another during Baha’u'llah’s time. Homosexuality, after all, has been observed in nature among hundreds of species as well as throughout human history. So while the current definition of homosexual relationships may not have existed, there certainly have always been some forms of homosexuality in human society, just as there have been many other acceptable sexual expressions, beyond the institution of marriage between a man and a woman.

So to understand the extremely limited or non-existent Baha’i treatment of homosexuality, we have to first understand the sexual traditions prevalent in the Middle East during the 1800′s. These would be the norms that Baha’u'llah would be familiar with.

While the current definition of homosexuality didn’t apply, there is one exception that must be noted. In Iran at the time of Baha’u’llah, this exception was the somewhat more readily accepted practice of lesbianism. It is sometimes referred to as sisterhood sighe and involved the consensual relationship between two women that was sexual in nature but not exclusively so. This was practiced in a society that allowed woman to travel together and spend time together (especially in harems where women were only allowed to frequent with other women freely).

Janet Afary writes in her book “Sexual Politics in Modern Iran” (p. 8):

Among married women, same-sex relations known as sisterhood vows were also culturally recognized practices. Although we have much less information on female homosexuality, we know that such courtships involved an exchange of gifts, travel to a shrine, and cultivation of affection between the partners.

Jafary’s book includes the account of the court gynecologist and obstetrician, Dr. Polak, who was occupied in a singularly advantageous post to observe and report on such activity:

Tribady – or tabaq – among women is widespread, though not to the same extent as pederasty [among men]. A certain friendship pact between women is performed within certain ceremonies in particular mosques on the last Wednesday before New Year’s Day (char shanbeh suri). The rituals and the day point to its heathen origins. Once the pact is entered into, the women maintain an inviolable commitment. This act is called khahar khandegi (sister recognition). It is worth noting that, just as men who have relations with individuals of their own kind (sui generis) develop a repulsion toward women, so too do these women develop an opposite repulsion. Thus there is often an agreement or tolerance of one another.
(Polak [1861] 1982, 43-44)

While not legally or religiously acceptable we see that homosexual relations were in fact common. The institution of marriage, while recognized and respected, was in many cases wholly separate from the sexual life of the couple. Of course, this was much easier for the urban and wealthy individual.

The “repulsion” that Polak describes developing towards the opposite sex would today be recognized by a medical professional as a person’s inherent sexual orientation. Of course, the societal norms did not allow them to live openly and freely as a couple but many women and men would have if they could. Instead, they were forced into various clandestine relationships. This, then, was the sexual milieu with which Baha’u'llah was familiar.

Having noted the existence and prevalence of lesbianism, it is interesting that Baha’u'llah doesn’t use language that could include homosexual relations between women. Instead, the word that is used refers to the masculine.

Here is the brief mention by Baha’u'llah (verse 107) in the Kitab-i-Aqdas:

ennaa nastah-yi an nazkora hokma’l ghelmaane et-taqo’r-rahmana yaa mala’el emkaane wa laa tartakiboo maa nohitom ‘anho fil-lohe wa laa takoonoo fi haimaa ash-shahavaate minal haa’emina

This is translated into English (the bold is my own emphasis):

We shrink, for very shame, from treating the subject of boys. Fear ye the Merciful, O peoples of the world! Commit not that which is forbidden you in Our Holy Tablet, and be not of those who rove distractedly in the wilderness of their desire.

First, let’s start with defining the word used. The S. Haim Persian-English dictionary defines the Persian implications of the Arabic term “ghulaam” as: slave, page; lad, servant.

Clearly, Baha’u'llah is making a hasty reference to something embarrassing. Something that He would rather not even have to talk about but must. But what possibly could it be? From the context that the preceding sentence to the paragraph provides we can surmise that it must be of a sexual nature.

Fortunately for us as observers (and unfortunately for those directly involved) the practice that is being referred to is actually in place today in Afghanistan so we can study it with great detail. It is an old practice known as “bache bazi” – literally translated as ‘child play’ or ‘boy play’ that has made a rapid resurgence after being banned for a time by the Taliban.

This involves the practice of training young pubescent or pre-pubescent boys to entertain men by dressing as women and dancing for them. There is also a sexual nature to this relationship as the boy is expected to provide his body for his master’s delectation. A recent PBS Frontline documentary called, The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan exposes this practice in greater detail:

Please be advised that while the content is not graphic in nature, the story may be disturbing to sensitive souls. You can view the documentary at this link.

These relationships are markedly different from the homosexual relationships that we see practiced today. It is not a relationship between equals. Instead the adult male has resources, power, rank and authority and in effect ‘owns’ the younger male. He provides for the boy’s needs but expects certain reciprocation.

The boys are not involved of their own choosing but often sold into the practice by their impoverished families. Therefore, this is a far cry from a loving and consensual relationship between two adults. In short, this is pederasty and human trafficking – what most modern societies would consider very serious crimes.

To compound the tragedy, their own society holds men who own such young boys in high regard and honors them with prestige. This is partly because the activity is an expensive one and participating in it is a sign of wealth. As well, the practice is often continued by the very same individuals who were once victims. That is, upon reaching puberty and no longer being desirable, the young boys would then use their acquired skills to recruit younger boys and introduce them to bacheh bazi in a continuing chain of sexual abuse. After all, this is the only life they’ve known and the only skills they’ve acquired to make a livelihood for themselves.

Again, referring to “Sexual Politics in Modern Iran” Cambridge University Press, we see that this was a common practice during Baha’u'llah’s time:

Nineteenth-century Iranian society did not adhere to modern definitions or sensibilities concerning same-sex relations. Although legally prohibited, homosexual sex was common, and homoerotic passion was accommodated. Falling in love with a youth and celebrating that love were recognized practices, as long as the lovers remained circumspect and observed certain conventions. Elite urban men often flouted these conventions. In the royal court and among government officials, wealthy merchants, and clerics, the practice of keeping boy concubines was widespread and commonly known; close, homosexual relations between free adult men were less often discussed or divulged, however.

Ibid. (p. 104):

In the era of Naser al-Din Shah and Mozaffar al-Din Shah, Iranian society remained accepting of many male and female homoerotic practices, among them the staging of dances by mukhannathun (effeminate men) in coffee shops (Aubin [1908] 1983, 248-249). The state distinguished between permissible and illegal homosexual acts. Bringing male (or female) prostitute to lower-middle-class homes was illegal, but purchasing or hiring a boy as a servant for the exclusive sexual pleasure of the master (in middle-class or elite homes) was permissible. Here a man could hire a boy as his long-term servant/concubine without any social recrimination. Handsome boys from poor families were hired at elite homes around the age of eight and were known as gholam bacheh (page boys). Polak made a number of observations about the practice:

Through this vice, livat [lavat], betsche bazi [bacheh bazi], is strongly rebuked in the Qur’an and can even be punishable by death, it is nevertheless today generally widespread, among the lay people, especially… officers, schoolteachers, and even clerics. It is so overt that no one makes an attempt to conceal it. In almost every house of standing there is such a boy, even many, who are there to serve this purpose. No one is reserved about introducing them publicly. Indeed, one takes pride in possessing a splendid specimen. One is especially jealous about them. They are carefully watched and protected from seduction. (Polak [1861] 1982, 41)

He goes on to say that men often fought bloody battles over these boys: “One uses all possible means of seduction: money, [professional] advancement, even violence, in order to take possession of a boy” (Polak [1861] 1982, 41). At the same time, the abduction and rape of boys remained serious crimes:

Though pederasty is quietly tolerated, the punishment for the abduction of a boy is often significant. Often the abductor, because of legal action against him, has all of his genitals, including his penis, cut off, at which point the individual will seek to be part of the eunuch service. Several of these violently mutilated received positions as governors and ministers. (Polak [1861] 1982, 41)

By the 1880s the kidnapping and molestation of boys were still major offenses, but the punishment had been generally reduced to imprisonment and flogging. The police in Tehran were vigilant about missing children, and every attempt was made to find and reunite them with their families within a few house (see for example Shaykh Rezaei and Azari [1885-1888] 1999, I:181, 266, 397). If a common soldier or peddler took an eight-to-ten-year-old boy to a garden or a religious seminary with the intention of raping him, and was caught, he might be beaten by the citizenry and then turned over to the police (see for example Shaykh Rezaei and Azari [1885-1888] 1999, I:17, 39, 50, 103, II:428).

Furthermore, Afary quotes Robert Surieu (p. 89) – note that he uses the exact same (etymological) term as that used by Baha’u'llah in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, cited above:

From the Middle Ages to the Safavid period, the rulers and the great men of the [Persian] kingdom possessed, the ghelman (plural gholam) boys acquired at a tenderest age from the Turkish tribes of Central Asia, and later from the Caucasus. The prices paid for these boys were often very high… [in some cases around] 2000 pieces of gold… They were undoubtedly a costly luxury. Often, it is true, the merchants who traded in these ghelman educated them with great care just as they taught music, dancing, and poetry to the most beautiful girls who were destined for princely harems – so that intellectual accomplishments should be added to their physical attractions and thus enhance their price. (Surieu 1967, 170)

Here is a picture from 1905 depicting a “dancing boy” in Samarkand:

"bache bazi" Samarkand 1905

Considering that Baha’u'llah was born into nobility and moved within very elevated circles earlier in His life, there is no doubt that He would have been very familiar with this practice and probably would have even seen finely attired catamites at the Shah’s or ministers’ courts. Therefore, there was no need to further explain or detail the practice, especially considering this practice’s questionable morality. While it was something that was prevalent most chose to ignore it in formal and refined conversation. In that context, the fleeting and awkward mention in the Aqdas becomes much more understandable.

We have further exposition of the sexual mores of that time from R. Jackson Armstrong-Ingram:

It was simply taken-for-granted in Middle Eastern tradition that all men find boys sexually attractive and that men who are attracted to boys are not a ‘different’ type of men but, on the contrary, ‘normal’ men who desire intromissive ejaculation for which a boy taken in liwat is as fit as a woman taken in liwat or vaginal intercourse.”

“Liwat does not encompass fellatio or mutual masturbation. The latter is common in the middle east but generally considered simply one of those things young men do that does not need to be acknowledged or discussed. Nor can liwat include sexual activity between women as the perpetrator of liwat must have a penis. Some authorities consider sahq, sexual activity between women, as a form of zina, but this is problematic as standard definitions of zina require penetration.”

If we note the widespread use of dancing boys dressed as girls for prostitution in the Middle East; and the practice of female prostitutes dressing as boys to increase their appeal to customers who would engage in either anal or vaginal intercourse with them; and remember that the customers of both the dancing boys and the travesti girls are married men: It is evident that expecting recent western terms like ‘homosexual’ and ‘heterosexual’ to be readily applicable in this socio-cultural milieu in any meaningful way is futile.

We may also note for purposes of comparison that in late nineteenth century New York working class Italians, and the decidedly un-Mediterranean Irish, held that male sexuality centered on intromissive ejaculation and that the object used to achieve that was not particularly relevant for defining masculine identity. Intromissive ejaculation demonstrated the superiority of the penetrator and that was what mattered.

In both the West and the East, the principal aim of sexual norms was to bolster adult male dominance, both in situations of illicit sex and in marriage. Islamic marriage was based on a concept of husband as owner (malik) and wife as owned (mamluka) and even the most advanced muslim thinkers of the late nineteenth century assumed an innate disability to being female, even when they were directly citing Western sources. The West did generally assume the existence of an essential difference between men and women that provided a limit to women’s development. If women tried to emulate men beyond a certain point, this would result in them being literally desexed (unable to bear children) and becoming a neither man nor woman monstrosity.
Sexuality in the Aqdas by R. Jackson Armstrong-Ingram

And further in another essay R. Jackson Armstrong-Ingram writes:

A remark that it is shameful to keep a catamite presumably means first and foremost that it is shameful to keep a catamite. But from specific comments we may also develop generalizations. We are likely to be aided in generalizing by an understanding of the context in which the statement was made and received. However, apart from this there are two basic directions in which we may take our generalizing. The statement may be generalized to a condemnation of a broader range of homosexual acts; or it may be generalized to a condemnation of those in a position of power exploiting their dependents for their own ends. One type of generalization operates on the basis of presumed analogies among specific outward acts and the one in the statement; the other operates on the basis of a concern for the principles that may be inferred from the statement and how these may be related to motives, responsibilities, and relationships.

The important question is which type of generalization is more likely to produce results that may support a global value system that can flourish and develop in all cultures. Is God more interested in people’s actions than their hearts? Is the road to salvation a mechanically instrumental one? Of course actions matter, but what underlies the actions must matter at least as much if we are not to espouse a materialist view of existence. And not only individual actions matter but also the broader patterns of social interaction in which these actions are situated.
Baha’i Faith and Sexuality by R. Jackson Armstrong-Ingram

I hope that the above has served to provide the historical context for understanding directly what Baha’u'llah wrote in the Aqdas. Needless to say, as Baha’is, we of course pay attention to the translation and interpretation of the Guardian. Juxtaposing the two may provide us with a deeper insight into the discussion of the views and attitudes of the Baha’i Faith towards homosexuality.

Similar to the line of reasoning provided by R. Jackson Armstrong-Ingram above, but with one important distinction, here is a question to ponder:

By ignoring the homosexual relationships between women, which were marked by consensual agreement between adult equals, and condemning specifically a despicable act of ritualized pederasty marked by the abuse of power and dominance of an adult over less fortunate minors, was Baha’u'llah telling us more about equality, justice and human rights than about merely a sexual act or orientation?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Related posts:

  1. Visualizing the Hidden Words of Baha’u'llah

  • Fubar

    Gladden,

    Unfortunately, due to security concerns, at the moment I do not usually disclose my personal email to people that I don’t know.

    In case it matters, I’m an ex-bahai. I requested a withdrawal from membership in protest of a capricious abuse of power by a bahai administrator about 7 or 8 years ago. Bahai administration disregarded the protest, and as far as I know, never bothered to look into the specifics of the abuse (the abuser had old family and social connections to people high in bahai administration). They attempted to get me to admit that a personal flaw of some kind was the real reason for my withdrawal, which I refused to do. This attempt at getting people requesting withdraw to admit to an inability to “follow laws” due to a personal spiritual deficiency is apparently  “boilerplate” that is used as a final insult to those resigning because of mistreatment. I later indicated to bahai administration that since I had originally been coerced into signing my declaration card by a bahai missionary as a teenager, that I saw no need to respond to their boilerplate.

    Anyways, this is the only direct correlation that I’m aware of:

    http://bahai-library.com/uhj/scholars.internet.html

    “The House of Justice feels confident that, with patience,self-discipline, and unity of faith, Baha’i academics will be able tocontribute to a gradual forging of the more integrative paradigms ofscholarship which thoughtful minds in the international community areincreasingly calling.”(1997)

    The term “Integrative” has been used variously. For instance Dr. Andrew Weil uses the phrase “Integrative Medicine” to refer to “east-west” approaches, “mind-body”, and other attempts to bring together conventional scientific medicine and “spiritual practices” (yoga or meditation) or “traditional” (herbal) remedies.

    This is roughly similar to “Holistic” approaches.

    “Integral” theory (or philosophy) is basically the same thing, except that it more narrowly refers to a body of work associated with several “schools” of Integralism. The early schools were started by “integral pioneers” Sri Aurobindo and Jean Gebser.

    Some include Rudolph Steiner (Waldorf schools) as an Integral Pioneer, as well as other european philosophers that similarly influenced similar “east-west” thinking, making “holistic” between scientific rationalism and mysticism. 

    While the attempt at defining a “harmony of science and religion” is shared between bahaism and integralism, some integralists from buddhist background, such as Wilber, do not accept the bahai idea of a “mystical unity of religion” given the rejection of the validity of “pagan” (and all other non-monotheistic) spiritual traditions in the judeo-christian-islamic (and bahai) religions.

    Integralists also are much more open in their enbrace of evolutionary theory than are bahais.

    (I heard a rumor that Wilber had been in an intimate relationship with a bahai woman in the mid or late 90s for at least a year or so, so Wilber presumably has a basic understanding of bahaism.)

    There were some bahais at Naropa or Noetic institute that attempted communication with Wilber about 10 years ago, but I don’t think it went anywhere.)

    Wilber’s ideas were part of an attempt at an interesting reform process based on community building:

    http://bahai-library.com/conferences/common.threads.html

    I met the authors (Suggs and Deahl-Coy) about 10 years ago in northern california.

    They were open about the problems in the bahai community such as disconnect over spiritual, social and intellectual needs of many bahais, growing fundamentalism, abuse of authority by administration, hostility toward scholarship, and so forth.

  • Fubar

    Another person more or less associated with early integralism was Teilhard de Chardin .

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere

    An important later influence from systems theory:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy)

    http://www.panarchy.org/koestler/holon.1969.html

    Arthur KoestlerSome general properties of
    self-regulating open hierarchic order (SOHO)(1969)| The concept of the holon is intended to reconcile the atomistic and| holistic approaches….| generally, the term “holon” may be applied to any stable biological| or social sub-whole which displays rule-governed behaviour and/or| structural Gestalt-constancy. Thus organelles and homologous| organs are evolutionary holons; morphogenetic fields are| ontogenetic holons; the ethologist’s “fixed action-patterns” and| the sub-routines of acquired skills are behavioural holons;| phonemes, morphemes, words, phrases are linguistic holons;| individuals, families, tribes, nations are social holons.”…| Every holon has the dual tendency to preserve and assert its| individuality as a quasi-autonomous whole; and to function as an| integrated part of an (existing or evolving) larger whole. This| polarity between the Self-Assertive (S-A) and Integrative (INT)| tendencies is inherent in the concept of hierarchic order; and a| universal characteristic of life.| The S-A tendencies are the dynamic expression of the holon’s| wholeness, the INT tendencies of its partness.| An analogous polarity is found in the interplay of cohesive and| separative forces in stable inorganic systems, from atoms to| galaxies….

  • Gladden

    Many thanks for your response and the links you have given. Im sorry that you’ve had such a nasty experience with the Bahai Faith. I’m a Bahai and have found Wilber’s work personally very useful in supplementing my Faith or providing a philosophical framework to understand it, hence my interest in others who know the Bahai Faith and Wilber’s Integral theory. I have also run up against the evolution question and wrote to UHJ about it. The essence of my question was that the inexhaustible mountain of evidence points to the tree of life understanding ie that we are cousins of the great apes and the rest of life; so how do we reconcile the facts with SAQs. UHJ basically encouraged me to pursue the broad understanding that I was after and pointed me to a couple of papers which had that broader understanding.  Anyway I don’t want to open a new topic in this particular thread.  Thanks again for the links. cheers

  • Anonymous

    Since Desir and others brought the Bible into this discussion in the King James version (which is the most accepted and widely used) it says in Luke:

    “Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In
    that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the
    house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the
    field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.”And then it continues:
    “I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

    As you’d expect there is quite a bit of disagreement on whether the Bible says two men or two people. And whether two wo/men sleeping together in one bed necessarily conotates sexual intimacy.

    The Old Testament does in multiple places condemn homosexuality but Luke, it would seem, does not. For more, see this discussion.

  • Sam

    Yes, I read your post. I found it very informative. As I
    mentioned previously, it led me to the opposite conclusion as it has you. Let
    me try to explain why.

     

    Before watching the “dancing boys” documentary, I
    had always found the language used in the Aqdas to condemn homosexuality to be
    somewhat strange. The reference to “boys” seemed to me to be
    “out of left field”. After watching the documentary (and even more
    after reading your post here), the reference seems less strange to me.  It makes sense in the  historical context of 19th century Persia, where  bache bazi was the prevalent form of male
    homosexuality. Your reference seems to confirm this. The quote in Jafary’s book
    from Dr. Polak is informative in this regard: ” Tribady – or tabaq – among
    women is widespread, though not to the same extent as pederasty [among men]. ” There is a symmetry in
    that sentence:  tribady (old-fashioned
    word for lesbianism) among women - 
    pedastery (bache bazi) among men. 
    Reflect on that symmetry. It seems to give further support to
    “boys” being the contextually-relevant and efficient terminology for
    homosexuality.

     

    You seem to suggest that since “sisterhood sighe”
    (which included a component of lesbianism) existed,  and since the Aqdas doesn’t explicitly condemn
    “sisterhood sighe”, then the Aqdas condones lesbianism.  I’m not so sure I can follow that argument. Among
    the many things not explicitly forbidden in the Aqdas:  cocaine, crystal meth, cannibalism,
    carjacking, ….( and I’m just on the “c”s….)  The law-giving portions of the Aqdas are
    concise and use efficient terminology. Baha’u'llah does not make long
    “laundry lists” of forbidden things.  

     

    For me, “the matter of boys”, once a mysterious
    and odd reference, now makes more sense as the efficient way to refer to
    homosexuality in language understandable at the time. (Apologies for  my earlier comment that it was “the only
    language available”  the
    “only” is too strong.) 

  • Desir0101

    Hello Baquia,
    Nice intervention.
    These lines depict events of suffering, separation and destruction.

    Surely there are disagreement on whether “” two men ,two people or two person”

    And “”two women shall be grinding together”", and as far as my vocabulary is correct “‘grinding” has nothing to do whether far or near with sex or love.

    BUT ONE THING IS CLEAR AND EVIDENT TO EVERY ONE, that these two men and two women no matter how you interpret the “”act” are unaccepted and will be SEPARATED..
    So. if they will be SEPARATED means that the act they are offering to are condemned by LUKE (peace be upon HIm).

    And you will observe that there will be then two couples of one man and one woman left and one couple one man and one woman taken away.

    GOD create every thing in pair and couple.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks Baquia this is a great article that I finally got a chance to read.  It’s always wonderful to understand the Bahai Writings in the historical context in which they were written. Unfortunately too many Bahais today don’t do that. They just accept it as the Word of God devoid of any association with history – as if it were written in a vacuum.  Thanks again!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Gray/100001692531472 Stephen Gray

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Islam

    Wikipedia gives a nice article on the Islamic context.

    Despite the formal disapproval of religious authority, the
    segregation of women in Muslim societies and the strong emphasis on
    virility leads adolescents and unmarried young men to seek sexual
    outlets with males younger than themselves – in one study in Morocco,
    with boys in the age-range 7 to 13,[18]
    and Muslim culture allows, or at least condones, men to have sex with
    other males so long as they are the penetrators and their partners are
    boys, or in some cases effeminate men.[19] It is not so much “getting fucked” as enjoying it that is considered bad: enjoying it increases the stigma.[20]
    But deep shame attaches to the passive partner: “for this reason men
    stop getting layed at the age of 15 or 16 and ‘forget’ that they ever
    allowed/suffered/enjoyed it earlier.” Similar sexual sociologies are
    reported for other Muslim societies from North Africa to Pakistan and
    the Far East.[21]
    Not all sodomy is homosexual: one Moroccan sociologist, in a study of
    sex education in his native country, notes that for many young men
    heterosexual sodomy is considered better than vaginal penetration, and
    female prostitutes likewise report the demand for anal penetration from
    their (male) clients.[22]

    Liwat is regarded as a temptation,[23]
    and anal intercourse is not seen as repulsively unnatural so much as
    dangerously attractive: “one has to avoid getting buggered precisely in
    order not to acquire a taste for it and thus become addicted.”[24]
    In practise, the segregation of women and the strong emphasis on
    virility can lead to adolescents and unmarried young men seeking sexual
    outlets with males younger than themselves – in one study in Morocco,
    with boys in the age-range 7 to 13.[25] But deep shame attaches to the passive partner.[24] Similar sexual sociologies are reported for other Muslim societies from North Africa to Pakistan and the Far East.[26] In Afghanistan in 2009, the British Army
    was forced to commission a report into the sexuality of the local men
    after British soldiers reported the discomfort at witnessing adult males involved in sexual relations with boys. The report stated that though illegal, there was a tradition of such relationships in the country, known as “bache bazi” or boy play, and that it was especially strong around Kandahar.[27]

    Raphael Patai in The Arab Mind, has argued that among some Arabs and Turks
    homosexuality can be justified as an expression of power. The “active
    homosexual act is considered as an assertion of one’s aggressive
    masculine superiority, while the acceptance of the role of the passive
    homosexual is considered extremely degrading and shameful because it
    casts the man or youth into a submissive, feminine role”.[28]
     

  • Baquia

    peyamb, you’re welcome. This is but an imperfect beginning to my own personal attempts to understand this topic. As we push aside the superficial and delve into it a bit deeper, the issue becomes much more complex than at first glance. There is much more to write and share so hopefully I will gather the time to submit my current thoughts to you soon.

  • https://sites.google.com/site/dilemmaofaheart/ Jim Habegger

    The note about the subject of boys says that Shoghi Effendi interpreted that passage as “a prohibition on all homosexual relationships.” Has anyone seen that statement anywhere in the writings of Shoghi Effendi, or any specific reference to where that statement appears in the published or unpublished writings of Shoghi Effendi?

    I wrote to the Baha’i World Center asking specifically for such a reference, and did not receive any. No quote from his writings, containing that statement, and no reference to any source in his writings for that statement. All I received in response was:
    - a description of a cross-reference in Shoghi Effendi’s notes for the codification of the Aqdas, between “homosexuality” and the passage on the subject of boys.
    - some of the quotations from Shoghi Effendi’s letters that have already been widely quoted, in which there is no mention of the subject of boys, and no occurrence of the expression “all homosexual relations.”

  • Baquia

    Jim, please share the letter from the UHJ. Writing a loose rewording of the UHJ is not helpful and in fact leads to more confusion.

  • https://sites.google.com/site/dilemmaofaheart/ Jim Habegger

    I can’t find it. If it matters to anyone, they can write to the World Center themselves. I only said that to explain why I’m asking the question. I can’t get an answer to this question, even from the World Center. If Shoghi Effendi actually said that the passage on the subject of boys is “a prohibition on all homosexual relations,” then why haven’t we seen that, ever, anywhere? Maybe it hasn’t been published. Okay then, if it’s really there, then it can be quoted with a reference like “From an unpublished …” If that comes from the writings of Shoghi Effendi, then whoever wrote that note saw it. Why is there no reference of any kind to where that came from in his writings?

    Simple question: Does anybody have any evidence that Shoghi Effendi ever wrote that the passage on the subject of boys is “a prohibition on all homosexual relations”?

    If anyone has, I would like to know.

  • Baquia

    Jim, let’s follow your logic: you paraphrase a letter from the UHJ. When I ask that you to share the actual letter and words from the UHJ you say you can’t find it. I find that hard to believe since letters from the UHJ to Baha’is sent as answers to questions they have posed as you have said in this case are precious and are never “lost” or “misplaced”. Today they are sent via email attachment (as pdf documents) making it practically impossible to lose.

    In any case, let’s move on. Then you say, I can’t find it and suggest people contact the UHJ for the actual information. So you are encouraging people to take up the time and resources of the BWC when they have already answered the question once! Duplicating their expenditures this way doesn’t make sense. And then you ask others to clarify the exact same question you say you originally posed to the UHJ.

    Again, let me get this straight. You asked something from the House. They answered you but you don’t have the letter itself (you’ve misplaced it or can’t find it). Instead of asking them to resend you the letter or writing them again to clarify the issue you yourself say you raised, you are here asking people who know less than you?

    Can you see how that is rather silly and not at all fruitful?

  • https://sites.google.com/site/dilemmaofaheart/ Jim Habegger

     Yes. I think I see very well how silly and fruitless it is. Thank you for opening my eyes.

  • Baquia

    No worries. I suggest you follow your own advice and contact the House to re-send you the letter and to clarify the question for you further. At that point please share and enlighten the rest of us!

  • Bird

    Jim, I encourage you to ask for a copy of the letter, Baquai is correct, they will email it to you. I think it is a good question & would love to see it discussed here.

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