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	<title>Comments on: Change is a Law of Nature</title>
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	<description>A Baha'i blog.</description>
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		<title>By: dco</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68793</link>
		<dc:creator>dco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 09:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Indeed thank you, this is really very helpful</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed thank you, this is really very helpful</p>
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		<title>By: Sen McGlinn</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68786</link>
		<dc:creator>Sen McGlinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You&#039;re right Barb, I found the 1985 letter too. &quot;&quot;... The couple themselves perform the ceremony by each saying, in the presence of at least two witnesses, the prescribed verse &#039;we will all, verily, abide by the Will of God.&#039; This ceremony is performed under the authority of a Spiritual Assembly which has the responsibility for ensuring that the various requirements of Bahá&#039;í Law, such as obtaining the consent of the parents, are met, to whom the witnesses must be acceptable, and which issues the marriage certificate.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That is presumably the current policy. It&#039;s not specified by Abdu&#039;l-baha or Baha&#039;u&#039;llah, for the obvious reason that most Bahais lived in places without Spiritual Assemblies. So they don&#039;t even give the Assembly jurisdiction over marriages, as far as I know. I&#039;ve been searching to see if Shoghi Effendi said the two witnesses had to be approved by an assembly: so far I haven&#039;t found anything. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I assume this policy would apply in any country where there is a functioning administration. Clearly the Bahais in Iran cannot get their witnesses approved by an Assembly, nor those in several other countries where there are no Bahai Assemblies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#39;re right Barb, I found the 1985 letter too. &#8220;&#8221;&#8230; The couple themselves perform the ceremony by each saying, in the presence of at least two witnesses, the prescribed verse &#39;we will all, verily, abide by the Will of God.&#39; This ceremony is performed under the authority of a Spiritual Assembly which has the responsibility for ensuring that the various requirements of Bahá&#39;í Law, such as obtaining the consent of the parents, are met, to whom the witnesses must be acceptable, and which issues the marriage certificate.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is presumably the current policy. It&#39;s not specified by Abdu&#39;l-baha or Baha&#39;u&#39;llah, for the obvious reason that most Bahais lived in places without Spiritual Assemblies. So they don&#39;t even give the Assembly jurisdiction over marriages, as far as I know. I&#39;ve been searching to see if Shoghi Effendi said the two witnesses had to be approved by an assembly: so far I haven&#39;t found anything. </p>
<p>I assume this policy would apply in any country where there is a functioning administration. Clearly the Bahais in Iran cannot get their witnesses approved by an Assembly, nor those in several other countries where there are no Bahai Assemblies.</p>
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		<title>By: Barb Ruth-Wright</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68785</link>
		<dc:creator>Barb Ruth-Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Having watched the stunning rendition of Hallelujah! by k.d. lang at the Olympics, and reflecting on how great it is to have an out lesbian performer so honored, and so embraced by the audience, I was reminded of a funny story I read recently, in the book Out of the Past - Gay and Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present, by Neil Miller.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The story is from the section &quot;The Age of McCarthy,&quot; when hysteria reigned in the U.S. regarding homosexuality, and gay witch-hunts were conducted by the government.:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Panic about homosexuals in high places spread north to Canada, where the new 1952 immigration act explicitly barred homosexuals from entering the country.  At the same time, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (the Mounties) established a special investigative unit called A-3 that concentrated exclusively on identifying and rooting out homosexuals in government jobs.  Like their American counterparts, the A-3 investigators watched gay bars and public parks; they also recruited informers among gay men.  The force soon had a list of 3,000 names, according to Canadian journalist John Sawatsky who investigated the Mounties&#039; Security Service for his book, Men in the Shadows.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In one bizarre incident, Sawatsky writes, the A-3 unit attempted to plot groupings and gathering places of homosexuals on a map of the Canadian capital of Ottawa.  Every area of the city with a concentration of homosexuals was identified and marked with a red dot.  Soon, the map contained so many colored dots that it became an indecipherable mass of red ink.  The investigators purchased another map - the largest one available.  It, too, became a one {sic} great red smudge.  Finally, a Mountie approached the Department of National Defence with a request that it fly over the city with high-resolution cameras in order to produce an even larger map.  The Defence Department refused - it was experiencing a financial crunch at the time.  At that point, the mapping of Ottawa&#039;s homosexuals came to an end.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Out of the Past is a great book - a highly entertaining and informative read.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Barb</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having watched the stunning rendition of Hallelujah! by k.d. lang at the Olympics, and reflecting on how great it is to have an out lesbian performer so honored, and so embraced by the audience, I was reminded of a funny story I read recently, in the book Out of the Past &#8211; Gay and Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present, by Neil Miller.</p>
<p>The story is from the section &#8220;The Age of McCarthy,&#8221; when hysteria reigned in the U.S. regarding homosexuality, and gay witch-hunts were conducted by the government.:</p>
<p>&#8220;Panic about homosexuals in high places spread north to Canada, where the new 1952 immigration act explicitly barred homosexuals from entering the country.  At the same time, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (the Mounties) established a special investigative unit called A-3 that concentrated exclusively on identifying and rooting out homosexuals in government jobs.  Like their American counterparts, the A-3 investigators watched gay bars and public parks; they also recruited informers among gay men.  The force soon had a list of 3,000 names, according to Canadian journalist John Sawatsky who investigated the Mounties&#39; Security Service for his book, Men in the Shadows.</p>
<p>In one bizarre incident, Sawatsky writes, the A-3 unit attempted to plot groupings and gathering places of homosexuals on a map of the Canadian capital of Ottawa.  Every area of the city with a concentration of homosexuals was identified and marked with a red dot.  Soon, the map contained so many colored dots that it became an indecipherable mass of red ink.  The investigators purchased another map &#8211; the largest one available.  It, too, became a one {sic} great red smudge.  Finally, a Mountie approached the Department of National Defence with a request that it fly over the city with high-resolution cameras in order to produce an even larger map.  The Defence Department refused &#8211; it was experiencing a financial crunch at the time.  At that point, the mapping of Ottawa&#39;s homosexuals came to an end.&#8221;</p>
<p>Out of the Past is a great book &#8211; a highly entertaining and informative read.</p>
<p>Barb</p>
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		<title>By: Barb Ruth-Wright</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68784</link>
		<dc:creator>Barb Ruth-Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi again Sen -&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I have searched Ocean admittedly very superficially, but I found quickly at least one letter from the UHJ in 1985 which stated that the Assembly involved had to ascertain the permission of parents, approve of the witnesses, and issue the marriage certificate.  It is also apparent from other references that they are responsible for ensuring that all civil and Baha&#039;i legal requirements are met.  Perhaps there is something more recent which contravenes this?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I suppose the question would be, what are the Baha&#039;i legal requirements?  In my hypothetical situation, the Assembly would be deciding that one of those requirements was not that one person be male, the other female, if same-sex marriage were legal in their jurisdiction.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Barb</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi again Sen -</p>
<p>I have searched Ocean admittedly very superficially, but I found quickly at least one letter from the UHJ in 1985 which stated that the Assembly involved had to ascertain the permission of parents, approve of the witnesses, and issue the marriage certificate.  It is also apparent from other references that they are responsible for ensuring that all civil and Baha&#39;i legal requirements are met.  Perhaps there is something more recent which contravenes this?</p>
<p>I suppose the question would be, what are the Baha&#39;i legal requirements?  In my hypothetical situation, the Assembly would be deciding that one of those requirements was not that one person be male, the other female, if same-sex marriage were legal in their jurisdiction.</p>
<p>Barb</p>
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		<title>By: Barb Ruth-Wright</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68783</link>
		<dc:creator>Barb Ruth-Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:30:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you for this clarification, Sen.  My understanding was that a LSA had to approve the two witnesses, whether they were LSA members (or Baha&#039;is) or not, and that the LSA had to obtain the necessary paperwork to prepare the Baha&#039;i marriage certificate (or appoint someone to do so), so that they were necessarily involved in some way.  Do you mean that a couple could have a Baha&#039;i marriage without any action or approval at all from the LSA, so that the LSA could say they were in no way culpable?  An LSA does not have to verify the parents&#039; permission?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This was certainly not the case with my Baha&#039;i marriage, but perhaps they were just doing the customary things, without being required to do so?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This is most interesting, if this is the case, and casts quite a different light on the picture.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Barb</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for this clarification, Sen.  My understanding was that a LSA had to approve the two witnesses, whether they were LSA members (or Baha&#39;is) or not, and that the LSA had to obtain the necessary paperwork to prepare the Baha&#39;i marriage certificate (or appoint someone to do so), so that they were necessarily involved in some way.  Do you mean that a couple could have a Baha&#39;i marriage without any action or approval at all from the LSA, so that the LSA could say they were in no way culpable?  An LSA does not have to verify the parents&#39; permission?</p>
<p>This was certainly not the case with my Baha&#39;i marriage, but perhaps they were just doing the customary things, without being required to do so?</p>
<p>This is most interesting, if this is the case, and casts quite a different light on the picture.</p>
<p>Barb</p>
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		<title>By: peyamb</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68782</link>
		<dc:creator>peyamb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What is currently done with a straight couple (Bahais) who get a non-Bahai marriage ceremony? Let&#039;s say they marry against the parent&#039;s wishes. How will the couple be given back their voting rights? Would they need to divorce? Or a time has to pass and they say they are sorry, and the LSA accepts their apology. I&#039;m curious about that. I&#039;m sure this situation has happened in the past with straight Bahais.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is currently done with a straight couple (Bahais) who get a non-Bahai marriage ceremony? Let&#39;s say they marry against the parent&#39;s wishes. How will the couple be given back their voting rights? Would they need to divorce? Or a time has to pass and they say they are sorry, and the LSA accepts their apology. I&#39;m curious about that. I&#39;m sure this situation has happened in the past with straight Bahais.</p>
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		<title>By: Sen McGlinn</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68781</link>
		<dc:creator>Sen McGlinn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The LSA is not required to witness a Bahai marriage: any two witnesses suffice, and the witnesses do not need to be Bahais. The other requirements are legal recognition, and permission from living parents (with certain possible exemptions). The question the LSA will face is whether to sanction a Bahai for getting married.  If voting rights are removed, the person is normally informed of what he/she would have to do to get them back. Would an LSA or NSA be willing to put it in black and white, &#039;you have to get divorced&#039; ? &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt; It&#039;ll be interesting, and I expect it will happen several times with varying outcomes before things settle down</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The LSA is not required to witness a Bahai marriage: any two witnesses suffice, and the witnesses do not need to be Bahais. The other requirements are legal recognition, and permission from living parents (with certain possible exemptions). The question the LSA will face is whether to sanction a Bahai for getting married.  If voting rights are removed, the person is normally informed of what he/she would have to do to get them back. Would an LSA or NSA be willing to put it in black and white, &#39;you have to get divorced&#39; ? </p>
<p> It&#39;ll be interesting, and I expect it will happen several times with varying outcomes before things settle down</p>
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		<title>By: Barb Ruth-Wright</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68780</link>
		<dc:creator>Barb Ruth-Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ADDENDUM:  its accuracy, or lack thereof, I meant to say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ADDENDUM:  its accuracy, or lack thereof, I meant to say.</p>
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		<title>By: Barb Ruth-Wright</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/change-is-a-law-of-nature-666.html/comment-page-12#comment-68779</link>
		<dc:creator>Barb Ruth-Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/?p=666#comment-68779</guid>
		<description>In addition to welcoming an individual (or couple) legally married to a person of the same sex, into Baha&#039;i membership, I think the Baha&#039;i community has the following scenario to look forward to, in the not far distant future:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In some local Baha&#039;i community where same-sex marriage is legal, the LSA will be approached by a same-sex couple, at least one of whom is a Baha&#039;i,  who wish to marry.  This couple will have fulfilled all the requirements of Baha&#039;i marriage, including obtaining the permission of parents, at least some of whom may be Baha&#039;is.  The LSA will make a decision to quietly witness the marriage of this couple, with no trumpet or fanfare,  and issue them a Baha&#039;i marriage certificate.  Then their NSA, and the UHJ will have to decide how to handle this event, and whether or not to sanction everyone involved - LSA members, parents or participants who are Baha&#039;is.  This is a prediction - the future will reveal its accuracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to welcoming an individual (or couple) legally married to a person of the same sex, into Baha&#39;i membership, I think the Baha&#39;i community has the following scenario to look forward to, in the not far distant future:</p>
<p>In some local Baha&#39;i community where same-sex marriage is legal, the LSA will be approached by a same-sex couple, at least one of whom is a Baha&#39;i,  who wish to marry.  This couple will have fulfilled all the requirements of Baha&#39;i marriage, including obtaining the permission of parents, at least some of whom may be Baha&#39;is.  The LSA will make a decision to quietly witness the marriage of this couple, with no trumpet or fanfare,  and issue them a Baha&#39;i marriage certificate.  Then their NSA, and the UHJ will have to decide how to handle this event, and whether or not to sanction everyone involved &#8211; LSA members, parents or participants who are Baha&#39;is.  This is a prediction &#8211; the future will reveal its accuracy.</p>
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