“And while the rest of the world is flaying around in a state of upheaval and confusion we've been gifted with a divine model which we believe will ultimately best serve mankind. We are not mere spectators. Everytime we teach the faith in the spirit of unifying mankind, we ARE speaking out against every injustice and inhumanity in the world.”

But is that actually true?

Amid Two World Wars, a Great Depression, the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, Gulf War I, Iraq, and Afghanistan just in the history of one country alone – the United States – and there are many other nations – the Baha'i Faith has repeatedly taken one step forward and ten thousand steps back generation after generation. For every person you teach and bring into the Faith, you negate ten thousand others with every mindless automaton vote for lifetime incumbency for a very tiny clique of people at the top who personally own and control the Baha'i Faith as their personal lifetime groupthink theorist experiment.

Shoghi Effendi said that one of the main functions of the Guardian of the Baha'is Faith was to ask a sitting Universal House of Justice to reconsider a decision they made that a Guardian deemed was against the Spirit of the Teachings of Baha'u'llah! So exactly WHO is supposed to perform that vital check and balance function now that there is and can never be a living Guardian in the Faith again ever? Who has the power and authority to ask them to reconsider anything?

Who?

The answer is no one.

So they can do whatever they want with no checks and balances whatsoever. Because of this, if they go off the rails and completely destroy the Faith, then they have failed all mankind and have not achieved one iota of anything whatsoever in speaking out and eventually stopping every injustice and inhumanity in the world. Zero. Nada. Zippo. How many thousands of years do you think it is going to take? I sadly say from hard experience that the Baha'is do not have the chops. Again, I am very sad to say this. But we are not players. It will take the current top down Baha'i system hundreds of thousands of years to achieve the simplest thing while the entire rest of the messy bottom up system of the world will easily accomplish in 100 years the things we are supposed to do. So I am putting the efforts I have left into the world itself directly. The Baha'is do not understand how to use spiritual multiplier forces in a society. Everyone else does for both good and evil. Your points are very well take, but I see no hope whatsoever of the Baha'i Faith ever achieving any kind of systemic competency. The rise of the internet could still be a factor. But so far I see no competence in how to use the Internet to progress the Teachings of Baha'u'llah via the current locked down Admin-o-Centric culture of the Faith. It is just not spiritual enough to have any effect on the course of events.

What has the Baha'i Faith done for veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan and their families in the U.S. where there is real spiritual need? What has it done for the slain and the maimed sent to “do God's work”. The answer is Zero. Nada. Zippo. the Faith is too soft. It is too weak. it is too insufferably Middle Class. It is made up of people who have never been anywhere in life and never seen anything from within the depth of their own souls. But that could all change. But so far I see little chance.

The Ruhi gambit is just the new scratching on the floor 15 feet from the kitty litter. It is just going through the motions and will not work. One step forward, ten thousand steps back. Millions will be born, live out their lives, and die while the Baha'is hold their endless meetings that produce nothing. Their prayers are not heard by any God. Ever. I honestly tried for decades. How can a community of people this individually and collectively impaired ever hope to be successful? At this point might it not be better to move on to find the people actually DOING the work of the New World Age and directly help THEM!

Even as late as the 1950s the Shah of Iran was deposed by a popular revolution which was entirely secular in nature. Should Baha'is have demonstrated their political support for the liberal and democratic government that deposed him? If yes, then should Baha'is have subsequently taken to the streets a second time when the same government was overthrown by a foreign backed coup which reinstated the shah? What should the level of our involvement of be and where do we draw the line? Is it even up to us to make these decisions? Well, I think not.

As for the words of pastor Niemoller, well, they've been 'coming' for the Baha'is for a long time! And finally, in the land of its birth, people ARE speaking out. And while the rest of the world is flaying around in a state of upheaval and confusion we've been gifted with a divine model which we believe will ultimately best serve mankind. We are not mere spectators. Everytime we teach the faith in the spirit of unifying mankind, we ARE speaking out against every injustice and inhumanity in the world.

“And while the rest of the world is flaying around in a state of upheaval and confusion we've been gifted with a divine model which we believe will ultimately best serve mankind. We are not mere spectators. Everytime we teach the faith in the spirit of unifying mankind, we ARE speaking out against every injustice and inhumanity in the world.”

But is that actually true?

Amid Two World Wars, a Great Depression, the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, Gulf War I, Iraq, and Afghanistan just in the history of one country alone – the United States – and there are many other nations – the Baha'i Faith has repeatedly taken one step forward and ten thousand steps back generation after generation. For every person you teach and bring into the Faith, you negate ten thousand others with every mindless automaton vote for lifetime incumbency for a very tiny clique of people at the top who personally own and control the Baha'i Faith as their personal lifetime groupthink theorist experiment.

Shoghi Effendi said that one of the main functions of the Guardian of the Baha'is Faith was to ask a sitting Universal House of Justice to reconsider a decision they made that a Guardian deemed was against the Spirit of the Teachings of Baha'u'llah! So exactly WHO is supposed to perform that vital check and balance function now that there is and can never be a living Guardian in the Faith again ever? Who has the power and authority to ask them to reconsider anything?

Who?

The answer is no one.

So they can do whatever they want with no checks and balances whatsoever. Because of this, if they go off the rails and completely destroy the Faith, then they have failed all mankind and have not achieved one iota of anything whatsoever in speaking out and eventually stopping every injustice and inhumanity in the world. Zero. Nada. Zippo. How many thousands of years do you think it is going to take? I sadly say from hard experience that the Baha'is do not have the chops. Again, I am very sad to say this. But we are not players. It will take the current top down Baha'i system hundreds of thousands of years to achieve the simplest thing while the entire rest of the messy bottom up system of the world will easily accomplish in 100 years the things we are supposed to do. So I am putting the efforts I have left into the world itself directly. The Baha'is do not understand how to use spiritual multiplier forces in a society. Everyone else does for both good and evil. Your points are very well take, but I see no hope whatsoever of the Baha'i Faith ever achieving any kind of systemic competency. The rise of the internet could still be a factor. But so far I see no competence in how to use the Internet to progress the Teachings of Baha'u'llah via the current locked down Admin-o-Centric culture of the Faith. It is just not spiritual enough to have any effect on the course of events.

What has the Baha'i Faith done for veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan and their families in the U.S. where there is real spiritual need? What has it done for the slain and the maimed sent to “do God's work”. The answer is Zero. Nada. Zippo. the Faith is too soft. It is too weak. it is too insufferably Middle Class. It is made up of people who have never been anywhere in life and never seen anything from within the depth of their own souls. But that could all change. But so far I see little chance.

The Ruhi gambit is just the new scratching on the floor 15 feet from the kitty litter. It is just going through the motions and will not work. One step forward, ten thousand steps back. Millions will be born, live out their lives, and die while the Baha'is hold their endless meetings that produce nothing. Their prayers are not heard by any God. Ever. I honestly tried for decades. How can a community of people this individually and collectively impaired ever hope to be successful? At this point might it not be better to move on to find the people actually DOING the work of the New World Age and directly help THEM!

Even as late as the 1950s the Shah of Iran was deposed by a popular revolution which was entirely secular in nature. Should Baha'is have demonstrated their political support for the liberal and democratic government that deposed him? If yes, then should Baha'is have subsequently taken to the streets a second time when the same government was overthrown by a foreign backed coup which reinstated the shah? What should the level of our involvement of be and where do we draw the line? Is it even up to us to make these decisions? Well, I think not.

As for the words of pastor Niemoller, well, they've been 'coming' for the Baha'is for a long time! And finally, in the land of its birth, people ARE speaking out. And while the rest of the world is flaying around in a state of upheaval and confusion we've been gifted with a divine model which we believe will ultimately best serve mankind. We are not mere spectators. Everytime we teach the faith in the spirit of unifying mankind, we ARE speaking out against every injustice and inhumanity in the world.

“It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action.” (Tab Baha’u’llah, Lawhi Maqsud)

When we translate His writings into action, nowhere are we asked to take sides in conflicting issues, but clearly to flee them:

“The distinguishing feature that marketh the preeminent character of this Supreme Revelation consisteth in that We have, on the one hand, blotted out from the pages of God's holy Book whatsoever hath been the cause of strife, of malice and mischief amongst the children of men, and have, on the other, laid down the essential prerequisites of concord, of understanding, of complete and enduring unity. Well is it with them that keep My statutes.

Time and again have We admonished Our beloved ones to avoid, nay to flee from, anything whatsoever from which the odor of mischief can be detected. The world is in great turmoil, and the minds of its people are in a state of utter confusion.” (Gleanings XLIII)

Our whole mission being to allow the writings of God transform the character of mankind:

“And yet, is not the object of every Revelation to effect a transformation in the whole character of mankind, a transformation that shall manifest itself both outwardly and inwardly, that shall affect both its inner life and external conditions? For if the character of mankind be not changed, the futility of God's universal Manifestations would be apparent.” (Iqan p 241)

You might feel that the Baha'is would gain popularity by taking sides in various issues, but this is not the mission with which Baha'u'llah has entrusted us.

thanks for the excellent quotes, which demonstrate the incoherence present in bahai scripture.

there are much more rational ways of seeing how social change processes operate.

in science, including social science, the best solution is usually the one that requires the least superstition and metaphysical fluff.

in that sense, progressive revelation is bogus, and emotive.

from the perspective of how meaning is constructed around the theme of revelation, the “truth statements” in bahai scripture can be “bracketed” and as such, give insight into the psychosocial dynamics of a declined culture.
gotta run.
have a nice day.

Farhan : I would say concept of entropy is a universal law dating back to Aristotle and formulated in Carnot’s second law; it takes place spontaneously. God’s revelation is a source of negative entropy, just as a grain in the soil reverses the entropy that has led plants to decomposition. However, Baha’u’llah seems to claim that God’s revelation has accelerated this process:
“The world's equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind's ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System–the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed.” (Kitab-i-Aqdas 2:182) or again:

“That God-born Force, irresistible in its sweeping power, incalculable in its potency, unpredictable in its course, mysterious in its workings, and awe-inspiring in its manifestations—a Force which, as the Bab has written, “vibrates within the innermost being of all created things,” and which, according to Baha'u'llah, has through its “vibrating influence,” “upset the equilibrium of the world and revolutionized its ordered life”—such a Force, acting even as a two-edged sword, is, under our very eyes, sundering, on the one hand, the age-old ties which for centuries have held together the fabric of civilized society, and is unloosing, on the other, the bonds that still fetter the infant and as yet unemancipated Faith of Baha'u'llah.” (Shoghi Effendi, ADJ, p 47)

Yes, Fubar, liberation movements did bring down tyrannical societies (as Craig would put it, “doing God’s work”), but have never been able to produce a civilisation in their wake.

The purpose of God’s message is to provide the society that will replace the chaos they leave in their wake. The purpose of religion is not to overthrow tyrants but to provide a peaceful society to replace them, and for far reaching reasons I cannot detail here, the Baha’i pioneers did accomplish beautifully this work. In Gleanings CX Baha'u'llah defines this:

“The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure. Our hope is that the world's religious leaders and the rulers thereof will unitedly arise for the reformation of this age and the rehabilitation of its fortunes.”

People are now sick of this. The problem in the Baha'i Faith is that NOWHERE in the Writings does it say the Baha'i institutions have ANY say WHATSOEVER over the inner spiritual insights of anyone on Earth! That is not their authorized sphere of activity and purpose and it never was. That is not part and parcel of the collective sphere at all. They are supposed to be talking to other COLLECTIVE human structures on the planet like nations, governments, and other organizations. But THAT function requires actual guts, skill, courage, and intelligence and might get you killed yourself! It is much easier to bully individuals and think you are actually doing something useful as an organization at your lifetime incumbent pay grade. You aren't. Read Sen McGlinn's (gasp) forbidden book.

He clearly makes the case from Baha'u'llah's Writings and not someone's Pilgrim's Notes or pet theories that the machinery of the Faith (which any reasonable person would certainly agree could indeed be quite useful after the bloody 20th Century if it was put to the task of actually doing something REAL in life instead of dreaming up endless administrative “one step forward – ten thousand steps back” zero sum theories and plans for itself forever.)

Everything everybody needs to know is in the Writings and quite usefully the new books and insights being written by enlightened thinkers and explorers of consciousness concerning the new unleashed zeitgeist. How to organize around that is a matter to be decided locally everywhere in the world – not in the insane folly of top down.

All the Administrative Order has ever done in it's sorry censored history is trade on people's “hopium” generation after generation and re-arrange deck chairs on each new generational edition of the Titanic. It is still the metaphor that just keeps on giving!

The tragedy of so much opportunity lost so far through entrenched “inside-the-box” straight jacketed orthodox administrative stupidity in an ocean of human misery and suffering is beyond calculable.

Meanwhile the people out across the world that are learning Atman is Brahman their own way and in their own life from their own study and searching are going to kick everyone's ass including the Baha'i Faith. That is happening as they begin to communicate via the Internet and communities of free discussion and shared learning form. Many rank and file thinkers in the Baha'i Faith have now gone underground and many streams of thought will not surface now to the apparatchik collective for the next 300 years. Does the current impaired and dysfunctional AO lifetime incumbent narrow apparatus really think long time Baha'is who actually served in the trenches are really this dumb to passively accept the hijacking of many of the remarkable insights that do exist in the Faith?

Life and spiritual thought will go on out in the wasteland beyond the walled cities. They will just never hear about it in the top down hyper micro-managed Faith.

So it goes.

Meanwhile, everyone keep posting!