Re: Marco and Overmywaders

Demanding scrupulous corroboration of cited sources – a typical feint used by some Bahais who dislike substantive intellectual engagement (or the position you’re trying to defend). Mind you, the credibility of sources is obviously important, but using this as an excuse to avoid addressing the real issues, as raised by Baquia, concerning checks and balances within the AO is simply disingenuous.

Re: Wahid Azal

I think your conspiratorial theorizing about the supposed nefarious activities of Bahais is as intellectually irresponsible as the evasion of critical engagment by Marco and Overmywaders.

To those concerned individuals:

I see overmywaders mentioned in a number of posts above, so I thought a response was in order.

I have no problem discussing the issues that Baquai brought forward, just as I have no issue with a pseudonym; however, I felt/feel that what I raised was significant and should be addressed as well. Asking someone else to do your homework for you may get you through school, but it doesn’t encourage honesty or truth. I simply ask that, before terrible accusations are aired to the world — no matter that one may be satisfied that they are true — the facts must be verified and verifiable (if formal charges have been laid, it is recorded). I don’t think that is very much to ask. Would Baha’u'llah expect less of us? Why should others do your work for you?

As for people losing their Administrative Rights for working with Muslims, I’m sure there is more to the story. That said, I definitely don’t appreciate the tone of either of the formal letters; I have received letters with such a tone from Administrative bodies and expressed my strong objection to it, to the writer (who was always anonymous).

Similarly, I wanted to set up a public meeting in our area to present the truths of Islam to the general public, from a Baha’i perspective, in support of the small Islamic community and in conjunction with speakers from that community. I was initially told “No, it is not wise to do this” by various peoples with sundry duties in the Baha’i body. With loving words from the Writings I expressed to them the obligation we have as Baha’is to do this very thing. Eventually, I got the green light. However, the Islamic community was not interested in even responding to my offer. Hey, I tried. You may feel that I was naive in attempting to help Muslims as a Baha’i, but at least I made the attempt.

I suppose what I am attempting to convey through the posts I have made here is that it is possible, if you are persistent enough and keep leading others back to the Writings, to effect change. But, I now understand that, as the title of this blog suggests, there is no intent here of working for change; rather, ranting and petulantly kicking one’s feet is the order of the day. I didn’t name this blog; but it is certainly living down to its name.

I wish you all the best in the worlds of God,
overmywaders

P.S. — no response to this is necessary. My computer is telling me that it is quickly forgetting your URL…

“have no problem discussing the issues that Baquai brought forward”

And yet you have consistently refused to do so.

“the facts must be verified and verifiable”

I personally will not verify the facts for you because that would mean revealing my sources and that would mean betraying a trust placed in me. The facts are indeed verifiable. Yet you have failed to take the extremely simple and easy steps needed to do so. Rather than the 5 minutes it would take to investigate the truth yourself, you have decided to spend hours here insulting me and calling me names.

“there is no intent here of working for change”

Did you get this impression from my suggestions for improvement? or that I did not stoop to personal insults but rather stuck to the matter at hand? Funny, others got a different impression. Perhaps it is your prejudices that blind you to what is on your monitor.

Concourse on Low Says:

“I think your conspiratorial theorizing about the supposed nefarious activities of Bahais is as intellectually irresponsible as the evasion of critical engagment by Marco and Overmywaders.”

You may think what you like, and using the “conspiracy” theory hatchet to dismiss is another typical Bahai tactic of not engaging is argument. But the writing is in black and white regarding such nefarious activities (and you don’t have to tune into Us State Department funded satellite Bahai stations broadcasting directly into Iran to see it). Here, I cite a message to Bacquia by Ian Kluge last year which echoes a sentiment pervasive throughout, at least, the Haifan Bahai community and its halls of power especially en toto. And before I quote, do the names UN weapons inspector David Kelly and Pentagon intelligence officer Mai Pederson mean anything to you?

From: Ian Kluge
Date: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:15 pm
Subject: RE: [talisman9] Re: Juan Cole on Iran’s ‘nuclear defiance’
iankluge2000

Dear Bacquia,

Two points:

(1) RE paying attention to what they say: many German Jews made that
mistake once too. They dismissed Nazi anti-semitism as ‘talk’ and
cheap vote-getting propaganda. They were wrong – and Israel can’t afford to be wrong again. I fully support a first strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities wherever they may be hidden and by whatever means are needed to destroy them. If the Iranians deny us their oil, destroy their oil facilities – if we can’t have their oil, neither will they.

The US can get most of its oil needs met by Canada (already your
largest supplier anyway of oil, gas and electricity). The MacMurray
(Alberta) Tarsands have more oil than Saudi Arabia just for starters.

2) I have no idea why the Universal House decided as It did, if It
did(I haven’t even seen the letter allegedly saying these things.)
but off the top of my head, I can imagine at least one major reason.

Regime change (one way or another) is coming in the relatively near
future and Baha’is must be there when a new regime is established to
make their mark on the new government and help move it in genuinely
new directions. If they all Baha’is leave they will have lost all
credibility as well as opportunities to legally prosecute their
former tormentors.

If you want to play hockey, you’ve got to be on the ice at game-time.

Best wishes,
Ian Kluge

–

I’m sorry, but letters to Hamid Taheri and the copious kinds of Ian Kluge-like statements by Bahais re: Iran everywhere (one of which on TRB recently outright stated that if 78 million Iranians where nuked by an American preemptive strike, there would be “…78 million less idiots in the world” ) establishes nefarious nature of this organization by, at least, the movers and shakers at the top which control this organization in its Haifan and unmistakably pro-Israeli, pro-Zionist, anti-Arab and anti-Iranian permutation.

Wahid

Wahid and everyone else,
if you’re going to comment on a blog post, it is a common courtesy to not digress from the topic which the post addresses. I would appreciate it if you would all extend this to me as my guests. Thank you.

I think the fundamental problem with Bahai governing instituitions is that their operational axiom is that human nature is basically altruistic and selfless, given a minimal amount of spiritual education and whatnot.

The genius of the American system of governance is its unapologetic recognition of the crass, rational self-interested nature of most human beings. Democratic systems accomodate this in an ingenious fashion by actually fostering it for the benefit of the whole system through multiple centers of power (judicial, executive and legislative). Obviously this system has kinks that need to be worked out but it’s the best political arrangement devised by the human mind to this point.

To the fathers of the American Constituition, a human being was an atom of self-interest. They did not believe in man, but they did believe in the power of a good political constituition to control them. Bahai doctrine, on the other hand, believes in the power of human nature to competently control political constitutions.

I would prefer a system that makes the presumption that rational self-interest is the well-spring of human motivation, rather than a rose-tinted one that is prey to human corruption and greed.

I know most Bahais would find this unpalatable, and view it as an attack on the religion’s teachings on human nature. But I think incorporating checks and balances (and their concomitant philosophical presuppositions of the essential corruptability of human nature) does not necessarily conflict with Bahai doctrine. It would be the tweak the AO needs.

I have found reading the entire thread has stimulated many thoughts in response to the foregoing posts.

I am personally thankful to know of this scandal in the Italian NSA, although I am saddened by it. I think it is not harmful to any mature mind to know of these things. It can however be very harmful, both within and outside of the Faith, if it is spread about irresponsibly and picked up by immature individuals in fragments and as rumors. Then it becomes food for suspicious minds and idle talk and becomes a spiritual conflagration, even the Western democratic system has barriers of confidentiality and secrecy that protect partial formed reports and rumors from getting out of hand until all the facts are presented and a decision making process of some kind is engaged (i.e. grand jury secrecy, executive session board meetings, attorney client privelage, etc.).

I do not think that in this case the reporting has been irresponsible in the manner in which it has been reported by “whoever that person is” at least within a limited distribution such as it is at this point. Those in positions of responsibility within the Faith should not be castigated for being silent about it. Their first duty is to preserve the reputation and integrity of the Cause and then to correct the problem, which in my experience they tend to do within a reasonable time once they are aware of it. To be sure this approach is sometimes at odds with Western democratic values but it does seem to work over time that what is needed does come about in a very positive way. The Chinese tend to exercise power this way, considering as they do their cultural value of “face” and they are the longest continuous civilization in existence. We should realize that no human organization is going to be free of this kind of problem.

We have been told time and time again that the Administrative Order is in its infancy. So can we really expect any more from it at the present time than we can from an infant child with respect to the potential that it holds? In many respects, at the present time in all honesty, its not much better and often worse than the existing government run by professional civil servants in the USA and elsewhere although generally better than some other countries where there is widespread corruption.

To those that say that the functioning of the Adminstrative Order depends upon individuals of character that I believe is true. I for one can not imagine it functioning as it should without individuals of exceptional character. This I think too was the intent of the founders of the American Republic that those of better character would come to the fore through free elections but the whole would be guarded from the occassional admission of individuals of inferior character into positions of power by the division of powers into branches of government. These realized that only a moral people who were self regulating in their conduct could successfully govern themselves. So I disagree with an earlier post that says that the American system was set up to exploit the lower nature of people. It was set up to protect the whole from the lower nature of people, just as Baha u llahs Administrative system is. The fact of free elections is really a great protection. Most other Faiths rely entirely upon appointment.

I know that Baha’u'llah spoke admirably of the government system of Confucious in which the community was served by the rule of individuals of high learning and character rather than by rule of law as in the modern West. I think that what we have to look forward to in the not so distant future of Bahai Administration is a very efficient and considerate governance by individuals of profoundly refined character and great compassion guiding communities that render obediance to their decisions out of love rather than fear, or by threat (as seems to be the inplication of the letter from the Australian NSA posted above).

I can imagine a future in which the exercise of power, which is what administration is ultimately all about, is done entirely from the Divine nature of human beings through love, reason and compassion, and not from the lower nature that we share with animals in which threats, deception, dominations and humiliation are the usual means of exercising control, and just the things that most Bahais who have been insulted or personally injured emotionally by the Administrative Order have suffered.
When the level of character, or the paradigm of power if you will, rises to the level of love, reason, and compassion in the general membership of the administrative bodies within the Faith then I think that we will begin to realize the promise that the Guardian saw for Baha’u'llahs World Order. At the present time though most Bahais in administrative positions transplant their transparent cultural values and project them into their working in the Bahai Administration, so we get things being handled in a way that is not entirely Bahai, but partly Persian (authoritarian monarchist power culture) or British (liberal imperial monarchist power culture), or American Canadian (rebellious republican power culture), or some other power values that are tranplanted into the institions from native cultures by those that serve in them. We are after all, “…children of the half light…”

When we ourselves become full embodiments of the Bahai culture then many of the struggles we have with our adminstrative order will evaporate. The Guardian said on occassion that so many of the problems that came to him could simply be solved by “doing the Bahai thing.”

The very essence of the Bahai thing is love. I think that any Bahai Administrative body that encounters a recalcitrant member should ask itself were it has failed to love this person or to educate them, those after all are the means that we have been given in this Revelation by Baha u llah to change the world. Why not let us use them to change our administrative institutions and encourage them to use those means to deal with all of us members.

As to enemies. We should be cautious and heed the Guardians advice that there are enemies that we can not even imagine. We really havent even seen the worst that can come at us. There are people in power in the world so vile and devious that were their true nature evident most sensitive people would flee in terror. It is better to be cautious but to be reasonable and not a zealot about seeing enemies everywhere, or a fool who sees only friends. Let people prove themselves by what they do over a long period of time. Then you are dealing with reality rather than idealism.

>There are people in power in the world so vile and devious that were their >true nature evident most sensitive people would flee in terror.

Indeed, like those in power in occupied Palestine and amongst the Neo-Conservative Straussian-Schmittian fascists whom the bahai powers that be are quite close and chummy with. Or, like the Idi Amins, Augusto Pinochets, Mohammad Reza Pahlavis, etc, whom the bahai powers that be were once so close to and firendly with, even in the case of Chile, members of that nsa serving on the CIA-backed and brought to power junta cabinet.

Wahid

Sorry Bacquia, I won’t be commenting any more on other people’s “silly” comments. Thank you for being the gracious host that you always are, and God-speed to you and yours, and may your Naw-Ruz be filled with the celestial Light of Glory (Xvarnah/baha’).

Nur ‘Aleykum
(The Light be upon you)

Wahid

My friend Wahid,

The ones you see and the ones you know are not the ones I talk about.

Most of the government affiliations the Faith has are with those who are currently in power as is customary to maintain relationships that might yield something positive, even if the rulers are tyrants. Its just part of diplomacy and has to be done. You notice that the Faith endures while these governments come and go. Such great wisdom in not affiliating politically. Some splinter groups that did no longer exist.

I didnt know the credentials of the Chilean NSA. Thank you for mentioning it. Most of the CIA people are criminals, though I will reserve judgement on those they may have used.

The Neo-Cons are tools of the disintigrative forces currently at work. They will be consumed by those they oppose or vice versa, just as the Nazis were consumed by the Communists that they opposed and which conflict laid the groundwork for the demise of the ealier victors in the late 80s. The Game is played on the court of thesis.anti-thesis.

Its really so true, “All are His servants and all abide by His bidding.”

Today I received independent confirmation of the main points of this story directly from the Italian NSA itself.

Only my opinion, but I think a little transparency goes a long way. Also, I think procedures need to be set up where financial transactions are independently audited. This is something essential, not because Bahá’ís are bad and need to be monitored, but because we’re human and we mess up and do things we shouldn’t. The more eyes checking over the numbers, the less chance of one or two people able to pull a scam on everyone else.

I’ve never been in favor of term limits, but I’ve often thought a two-stage election might help lessen the incumbency stranglehold without having to introduce something partisan like nominations or campaigns. The biggest reason incumbents remain is that they have name recognition. Someone not on an Assembly will rarely, if ever, get enough name recognition to get enough votes to replace someone else. There may be many people who receive votes, but generally no one gets enough. There is a big gap between 9th and 10th place unless someone retires.

A two-stage election would mean everyone votes for some larger number, say 19, and then votes for the 9 from this pool of 19. It gets people thinking about other possibilities when they cast their vote for the 9 members without having to have nominations. And if the current 9 really are the best for the job, it doesn’t arbitrarily force someone to step down at the end of a preset term. Just a thought I had once long ago of something that might work.

Sorry, I don’t have time to write more at the moment.

Thanks for coming back and letting everyone know, Simeon.

edit: I saw your previous comment after, thanks for your detailed feedback.

Somehow my reply posted above your question… ? Anyway, it’s there.

This is my first visit to your site. I wish there were a thousand more like it. If Baha’i administrators think they are justified in dealing unjustly with those in the Baha’i community who dare to think and ask questions, I say good riddance to ‘em! Friend, it may amuse you (it does me, now) that four years ago I reported an “odor of violation” to my AABM. He went straight to the source and in weeks I was without warning or explanation cut off from not only my friends but administration as well! The painful thing, though, the blow that cut me off, was that I had to find out by myself. The AABMP never returned, my Group shunned me, the ABP refused to explain, the Counsellor ignored me, the World Centre wrote that “these things are best handled at the local level.” My secret, silent excommunication made me realize this was not what I signed up for!

INow bereft of community and administration, Iwrote to M&R to resign, with a brief note why, and their response was: “We are sorry you are dissatisfied with the friends.” No one has yet admitteed why I was shunned, or why the different institutions had different responses to it. I susupect that if the story came out, a Baha’i psychologist would lose his job and license, as would a Baha’i lawyer his professorship, and a few Baha’i schoolteachers their jobs, and a lot of Baha’is their rights – justly. But they won”t.

I loved the Baha’i Faith. I was a Baha’i for almost 30 years. I loved its Adminstration. Now I find solace in these words from ‘Abdu’l-Baha in Star of the West, Vol.VI, NO.6, p.45: “The worst enemies of the Cause are in the Cause and mention the Name of God. We need not fear the enemies on the outside for such can be easily dealt with. But the enemies who call themselves friends and who persistently violate every fundamental law of love and unity, are difficult to be dealt with in this day, for the mercy of God is still great. But ere long this merciful door will be closed and such enemies will be attacked with a madness….”

Keep rantin’.

P.S. Some months ago I was able to receive Google alerts on the alleged misue of funds by one or more members of the India NSA. There is a story now about scandal involving a member of the Swiss NSA.Today I can’t Google a shadow of it on web or news. A few years ago there were two separate instances of Baha’i women being murdered by their husbands. Find it now! I have to wonder if there is a Baha’i at Google filtering these things. After what they did to me I cannot put it past them. However, that is one of the things “difficult to be dealt with.” What a comfort that I can just sit back and every now and then hear: is that creak the “merciful door” closing?

Hello Nancy:
I have no idea what your transgression was, and it is none of my business to know. Welcome to a growing list.
I would like to point out that a transgression against God is dealt with by God, usually by some sort of circumstances which direct you to the more acceptable path, but if not then in the next life. That is between you and God. Also know that having accepted Baha’u'llah you are guaranteed a choice seat in the next show. (from the Dawnbrearkers) No one (not even you) can take that from you.

Stay open and the greater purpose of your dis affiliation will become apparent. You have been chosen to progress the universal mind of Baha’i.

Robert Clifton

Human error can happen at all levels of the Baha'i community. When greed and selfishness overcome one's spiritual intergrity, he/she will fall to the abys. Baha'i history is full of examples. Baha'u'llah's brother, Abdu'l-Baha's brother, the Guardian's parents, the Hand of the Cause of God Mason Reemy, Avareh who was Abdu'l-Baha's secretary and a historian, and many others fell. Now an NSA secretary has fallen. So what? That does not and must not shake our faith in Baha'u'llah

Last 2 posts above are Great, but Where would/will we be w/o criticism, questioning and at least a healthy mote of doubt? I shudder to think… but I suppose there would be many more here challenging free-speech and press.

farhan, totally agree. It is one thing to bury one's head in the sand and pretend that the Baha'i community is perfect and can not improve and we should not even talk about anything negative… and another to take a realistic look at it and make real suggestions on how to improve it as you can see in the above post.

Hujjat, the guidelines of the Baha’i administration are flexible and certainly allow for term limits. If we eschew the myopic view that what is today is what should be forever, then we also recognize that the current state of Baha’i administration is unrecognizable from its original state. For example, previously only men were elected to LSAsand NSAs with women holding a separate election to have parallel institutions that had no authority but were supportive in nature (fundraising, children’s education, etc.). As well, previously members were elected from a small ‘nominated’ list. That is, the whole community of adult Baha’is was not a candidate. There are many more but if you take time to study the history of Baha’i institutions, their evolution and transformation becomes apparent.

Term limits are therefore simply yet one more step in that same direction. What you may view as ‘patina’ others view as ‘ossification’. There is always a tradeoff to be made. For example, when women were able to be elected as LSA members, the disadvantage was that many able and well qualified men were not elected as a result.

In the same way, if term limits were to be implemented, many well qualified previous members would no longer be elected but in their place would be elected Baha’is who may surprise the community and themselves with their service and contribution to the Faith.

I am not shocked by the news of the embezzlement but by the open discussion of it over the internet. What have you achieved now? Public education that the administrative arm of the Faith is blind? These matters should be and I’m sure has been discussed at the time and place it should be discussed. Why are we so eager to remove the dust in our brother’s eye when there is a beam in ours.
Has this Faith not thought us to uphold justice? Are you worried it will not be carried out? Has it not taught us to uphold the dignity of the Faith at all times. I suppose you are a new Baha’i or too much of the old world order to know what you are doing. No one escapes the justice of God. All we should do now is to pray for the protection of the Faith.
I am amazed because where we come from the House of Justice is a Holy and infallible body. How can you dare to question its integrity in public this way? Are you really a Baha’i or someone out to defame its fair name? Just a little advice. If you are the latter, not in a million years can you succeed to belittle the Faith of God for the Age. The man, whoever it was who stole has stained his soul…but I would leave it to the justice of God. You to display it this way ia to poison your own soul. If you are a Baha’i stop it. If you are not run from trhe wrath of God.
Kalavathy Raman
Malaysia

way to go, OVERMYWADERS !

kalavathy.
I appreciate your sayings.
Best to you.
God surely will assist you.

But let me tell you your administrative institutions are corrupt.

I witnessed corruptions at local and national level of Bahai institutions.

These have never been unfolded on the net and I will not do it as well.