Finding Hidden Purposes in Obedience

Posted on by

Here is an interesting post made by fellow Baha’i blogger, Neghan. For some reason he decided to erase his writing after publishing it on the web.

Similar to the previous occasion where a fellow blogger decided to self-censor themselves, I’ve plucked the content from Google Cache and present it here for your reading pleasure. I’m not sure why Neghan decided to remove this because to me it doesn’t cross any lines, nor does it reveal anything which others have not already expressed.

Of particular interest is this excerpt:

Until we realize that what worked in 1950’s and 1960’s Latin American countries, in homogeneous and often poorly educated communities with a completely different concept of time and with very different learning styles is not the best solution for bringing in the masses everywhere (especially in the West). Mix in the overzealous (bordering on fundamentalist) zeal encouraged in the training programs that appears to clash with much of Baha’i culture and alienates many of the existing Baha’is and you’ve got a real mess. I’m not sure how long it may take for the issues here to be realized, but we as Baha’is should be supportive and let things play out as they will. Perhaps one day we will be open to ideas about adapting content and delivery to different audiences, having a more customer-centered approach in our community relations, and more effectively and strategically using technology, messaging, and marketing tools to communicate, train, and empower believers to change the world.

You need not look far for my own take on Ruhi.

So it is published again in the interest of sharing and encouraging dialogue (with minimal changes to correct spelling & grammar). I hope that Neghan does not take offense since none is intended.

Enjoy

[START DOCUMENT]

Finding Hidden Purpose in Obedience
November 5, 2007 on 12:56 pm | In Community Life | No Comments

Finding Hidden Purposes in Obedience

It has been a while since I posted anything so here is something extra spicy for you all to chew on.

I read an article in the latest issue of the American Baha’i newspaper and it got me to thinking. In the article, written by the eminent John Hatcher, we are reminded that receiving mandates from the Universal House of Justice is essentially as if we are receiving mandates from God. Therefore, the article tells us essentially to do our Ruhi study classes, and whatever else the House asks of us, in a spirit of loving obedience. I really liked the article; I just have a bit of a twisted spin on it. Let me explain.

God works in mysterious ways — we mortals have a bad track record in figuring out His methods

If we look at religious history, and we look at those who were divinely guided and the choices they had to make, we see that infallibility is often not understood by the people of the time. Think about Abraham who was told to sacrifice His son. Abraham did not understand why He was being asked to do this. Clearly, infanticide was not going to be good for growth in the community. But this was a task that God asked Him to do, so He was willing to do it, and this taught us all a lesson about true obedience. Think about Noah who was told to sacrifice everything and get branded a fool by his people to build an ark. Think about how then he was promised by God when the Flood would arrive. The day came and the flood didn’t happen. Did Noah freak out and abandon God? No, he kept his faith and admitted that He did not understand. Sometimes the reasons for certain decisions won’t become clear until 5, 10, 50, or 100 years from now. Sometimes certain infallible decisions of divinely guided people (and today Institutions) may not lead to the results we expect in the way we want. In fact, sometimes those results may even be the opposite of what we expect, but they may have some bigger lesson to teach us in the process that turns out to be critical to achieving the ultimate ends we desire.

Example from the Old World

Let me give you an example. Beware, I’m now going to go into some politics here on the DailyBaha’i blog. This is just my individual interpretation of events going on in the world around us and it is no reflection on any kind of official Baha’i interpretation of events. These are just my musings. Here goes: I understand that the Lesser Peace (the political peace of the world where nations essentially band together to outlaw war) is prophesied to happen in the ‘near’ future. I also understand that America is prophesied to lead the world to this new reality. For that to happen, America needs to realize that it is incapable of running the world with bullying tactics and of always getting its way with brute force. For this realization to happen, certain groups in America who have visions of American Global Dominance (or Pax Americana) which is a vision of our country being ordained (by God or something) to rule over the world as a benevolent master, need to be discredited. These ultra nationalists have at last had their chance to run the affairs of this country the way they have always wanted. They have had their cowboy president who uses force first and asks questions later. These America-First folks may not ever change their views themselves, but their views have been largely discredited in this country. Now that they have been discredited, they will have less influence and be less of a hindrance in the path to the Lesser Peace. Had they not been discredited, they may have used their powerful lobbying organizations, thinktanks, and media outlets to block any attempts to create a Peaceful New World Order. And yes, I know how it makes them go into a wild frenzy when I use that last term…New World Order.

Ruhi as a Cleansing Force

This brings us back to the Baha’i Faith. Perhaps the current initiatives will play out as we hope, and study circles will lead to ‘A’ clusters which will lead to intensive programs of growth which will lead to entry by troops and on and on. Or, perhaps the current initiatives will not work out the way we believe they will? Perhaps we have some key lessons to learn yet as a community? Perhaps the current process will, as some suspect, lead to great tests for believers who have any kind of relevant experience and who may see this massive endeavor as flawed if it expects to immediately increase the ranks of the believers. In fact, some even think it might lead to less active and less enthusiastic Baha’is, in the West in particular. But perhaps this needs to happen? Perhaps Ruhi is a cleansing of the ranks of the Baha’is of those who are not willing to suck up their ego and do things their experience and intellect tells them will not work? What greater test than this could a professional with years of experience and insight have?

Perhaps building the Ark is more about clearing the forest then building a ship

Perhaps Ruhi is a cleansing force sent to clear out our communities and institutions of past initiatives and efforts? If this is true, then I see three possible effects of this process.

(1.) A certain well-meaning ‘school of thought’ about how to bring in the masses that is the driving force behind the Ruhi training program will need to be exhausted. Unfortunately, I fear that until these ideas have been tried and tried again, without achieving the desired results, we won’t be able to change the way we do things. I’m not trying to sound cynical here, but I feel that we are putting too much emphasis on past experiences that occurred in very different circumstances and not learning from what is available in today’s world. Therefore we need to support these efforts so that we can learn to break from the past and get to the next level. Until we realize that what worked in 1950’s and 1960’s Latin American countries, in homogeneous and often poorly educated communities with a completely different concept of time and with very different learning styles is not the best solution for bringing in the masses everywhere (especially in the West). Mix in the overzealous (bordering on fundamentalist) zeal encouraged in the training programs that appears to clash with much of Baha’i culture and alienates many of the existing Baha’is and you’ve got a real mess. I’m not sure how long it may take for the issues here to be realized, but we as Baha’is should be supportive and let things play out as they will. Perhaps one day we will be open to ideas about adapting content and delivery to different audiences, having a more customer-centered approach in our community relations, and more effectively and strategically using technology, messaging, and marketing tools to communicate, train, and empower believers to change the world.

(2.) The second effect may be that our communities are being cleansed of all the old institutions (such as National Teaching Committee in the United States which was recently disbanded), so that we can focus more on Ruhi classes and the Institute Process. This cleansing is wiping away all the old ways of doing things and opening the way for new solutions in the future. We may continue to gut programs and offices that do not appear to help ‘the focus’ until all that is left is a bare bones operation. At that point we may be ready for creative, dramatic, and critical changes to the way we do things that can then get this show on the road and start effective and sustainable growth.

(3.) Finally, those of us with logic- and evidence-based educational backgrounds, real-world organization building experience, open-minded and creative approaches to spiritual development, and individualistic thinking tendencies will continue to be severely tested by the current Plans of our communities. Those of us who cannot learn to be obedient when every fiber of our experience tells us that this won’t work and may actually be accomplishing the opposite effects in the community (in the near term), will likely flush ourselves into inactivity, or even out of the community. But those of us who can see the bigger picture and humble ourselves and admit that there may be things going on that we just don’t understand at this time may find that our obedience muscles stronger than ever and ready for any new tests that life will throw at us. This may in turn create a smaller but more effective core of believers ready to implement the dramatic and powerful campaigns that may be introduced in the future.

The Whirlwind Doesn’t Have to Explain Itself to Little Old Me

This is just one scenario. I don’t know what will happen. Perhaps I am wrong and things will not play out like this? I hope I am wrong, because the scenario painted above is rather grim. I have no crystal ball. All I know is that I love the Baha’i Faith and that I don’t understand God’s methods. There are many times that I, perhaps a little bit like Job, look into the Whirlwind and have to admit that I just don’t understand what is going on. I know that I love the Universal House of Justice, and that I cherish Their every word, and that I pray for the strength to manifest the loving obedience required in our times.

[END DOCUMENT]

Related posts:

  1. Finding Loopholes
  2. Visualizing the Hidden Words of Baha’u'llah

← Older Comments
  • Hugh J Church

    I have been hoping for more reaction to “Finding Hidden Purposes in Obedience,” which was the starting point, supposedly, for all these messages. Unfortunately, the accumulating comments remind me of all the “cluster” meetings I’ve ever attended, where the original subject is more-or-less forgotten while everybody makes statements or even speeches about their own particular problems or experiences or views. The meeting gets further and further away from its supposed purpose, and ends up being frustrating, disappointing and sometimes – depending upon one’s patience – quite funny. In fact, I find it rather amusing that some of the participants in this so-called “discussion” are so much like the Baha’is they claim to have left behind – completely unable to stick to the topic at hand and/or discuss it. As a Baha’i, I wish people would give their views on “Finding Hidden Purposes in Obedience.” And since some of the participants have implied or explicitly stated that they are NOT Baha’i any more, they aren’t really ranting as Baha’is, are they? Shouldn’t they go to Ex-Baha’i Rants? What the Faith needs desperately are more ranting Baha’is!
    Hugh

  • Hugh J Church

    I have been hoping for more reaction to “Finding Hidden Purposes in Obedience,” which was the starting point, supposedly, for all these messages. Unfortunately, the accumulating comments remind me of all the “cluster” meetings I’ve ever attended, where the original subject is more-or-less forgotten while everybody makes statements or even speeches about their own particular problems or experiences or views. The meeting gets further and further away from its supposed purpose, and ends up being frustrating, disappointing and sometimes – depending upon one’s patience – quite funny. In fact, I find it rather amusing that some of the participants in this so-called “discussion” are so much like the Baha’is they claim to have left behind – completely unable to stick to the topic at hand and/or discuss it. As a Baha’i, I wish people would give their views on “Finding Hidden Purposes in Obedience.” And since some of the participants have implied or explicitly stated that they are NOT Baha’i any more, they aren’t really ranting as Baha’is, are they? Shouldn’t they go to Ex-Baha’i Rants? What the Faith needs desperately are more ranting Baha’is!
    Hugh

  • Inge Barthel

    Andrew, now I recognise the way you look at religious and spiritual laws and legitimacy. You see it very much in the same terms as in worldly life. Like up until Jan 07 donations to worthy causes up to 5% of your total income were tax deductable and since then it’s up to 20% and it takes a written law with a date of commencement etc. to be in effect.

    With spiritual or religious – ought to be the same – law I think it’s a bit different. As soon as the new revelation was issued from God and The Bab had transmitted it to human consciousness the essential changes were manifest. Later they were clarified – or watered down – by actual written statements. The first to obey those laws would have to be the prophets who revealed them.

    (Yes, and I am grieved to say, The Bab also took a second wife, even though he was already separated by circumstances from his first wife and he apparently made some attempts to decline the offer. But in the end he consented. )

    The written word is inferior to actions and behaviour. All arguing about dates and written law and what was in effect, “culture” and what the general public expected and what the men would have been outraged about is IMO apologetics. The new revelation from God stated that the time had come to enact the equality of men and women, period. Tahirih had understood and acted accordingly. At the conference of Badasht she manifested that very law. The fact that monogamy must be implied is obvious to the sincere. Only the apologetics seem to be confused about this.

    BTW, Mr Momen, I do not in any way secretly aspire to your values.

    To Hugh, I feel sorry that you seem to expect that people ought to serve your thread like they would if they’d work out a thesis about a certain topic. If the discussion strays from your hoped for path, why not re-establish the connection? – If you use a bit of lateral thinking you can easily link the discussion with the topic yourself. Like “who obeys what?” What’s the purpose of us obeying a manifestation who doesn’t obey God’s law? – What’s the purpose of obeying a law that has been watered down in oder to serve a reluctant manifestation and his followers? –
    best regards
    inge

  • Inge Barthel

    Andrew, now I recognise the way you look at religious and spiritual laws and legitimacy. You see it very much in the same terms as in worldly life. Like up until Jan 07 donations to worthy causes up to 5% of your total income were tax deductable and since then it’s up to 20% and it takes a written law with a date of commencement etc. to be in effect.

    With spiritual or religious – ought to be the same – law I think it’s a bit different. As soon as the new revelation was issued from God and The Bab had transmitted it to human consciousness the essential changes were manifest. Later they were clarified – or watered down – by actual written statements. The first to obey those laws would have to be the prophets who revealed them.

    (Yes, and I am grieved to say, The Bab also took a second wife, even though he was already separated by circumstances from his first wife and he apparently made some attempts to decline the offer. But in the end he consented. )

    The written word is inferior to actions and behaviour. All arguing about dates and written law and what was in effect, “culture” and what the general public expected and what the men would have been outraged about is IMO apologetics. The new revelation from God stated that the time had come to enact the equality of men and women, period. Tahirih had understood and acted accordingly. At the conference of Badasht she manifested that very law. The fact that monogamy must be implied is obvious to the sincere. Only the apologetics seem to be confused about this.

    BTW, Mr Momen, I do not in any way secretly aspire to your values.

    To Hugh, I feel sorry that you seem to expect that people ought to serve your thread like they would if they’d work out a thesis about a certain topic. If the discussion strays from your hoped for path, why not re-establish the connection? – If you use a bit of lateral thinking you can easily link the discussion with the topic yourself. Like “who obeys what?” What’s the purpose of us obeying a manifestation who doesn’t obey God’s law? – What’s the purpose of obeying a law that has been watered down in oder to serve a reluctant manifestation and his followers? –
    best regards
    inge

  • Sincere Friend

    Baha u Llah is the Primal Point. The meaning of this as I understand it is that He is the point through which creation manifests. This implies that the reality that we know through our senses is a construct rather than substantial, one that is constantly being recreated. Quantum physics also supports this view of reality being a construct constantly being renewed.

    The Writings speak of how at the moment the Manifestation appears that all things are recreated. This, I believe, is not just a metaphorical “spiritual” act with no bearing on the physical world but an actual real physical fact, although one so subtle that it can not be detected by either our senses or our scientific instruments. The elements of creation instantly obey the new law that emanates from the Primal Point, it has no choice. Human beings, on the other hand, continue to behave in their spheres of influence and awareness according to their will and so the acceptance of a new Manifestations
    law is a matter of choice.

    It seems to me that the manifestations, by their nature are like a transformer, standing between the seen and the Unseen and by the nature of their being transforming and transmitting a hidden energy into visible change the same way that a light bulb takes invisible electricity and transforms it into visible light and heat.

    The consequencs of the Law are however irresistable as soon as they are enacted because the application of Divine Justice turns on the new law and not the old law, with the only mitigating influence being mercy such as God may wish to apply to individual circumstances. “He verily doeth whatsoever He pleaseth and none may ask Him of His doings.”

    The foregoing is my own personal view to which I welcome any amendments, challenges, refutations, debate, etc., although all in the spirit of fellowship and loving kindness.

  • Sincere Friend

    Baha u Llah is the Primal Point. The meaning of this as I understand it is that He is the point through which creation manifests. This implies that the reality that we know through our senses is a construct rather than substantial, one that is constantly being recreated. Quantum physics also supports this view of reality being a construct constantly being renewed.

    The Writings speak of how at the moment the Manifestation appears that all things are recreated. This, I believe, is not just a metaphorical “spiritual” act with no bearing on the physical world but an actual real physical fact, although one so subtle that it can not be detected by either our senses or our scientific instruments. The elements of creation instantly obey the new law that emanates from the Primal Point, it has no choice. Human beings, on the other hand, continue to behave in their spheres of influence and awareness according to their will and so the acceptance of a new Manifestations
    law is a matter of choice.

    It seems to me that the manifestations, by their nature are like a transformer, standing between the seen and the Unseen and by the nature of their being transforming and transmitting a hidden energy into visible change the same way that a light bulb takes invisible electricity and transforms it into visible light and heat.

    The consequencs of the Law are however irresistable as soon as they are enacted because the application of Divine Justice turns on the new law and not the old law, with the only mitigating influence being mercy such as God may wish to apply to individual circumstances. “He verily doeth whatsoever He pleaseth and none may ask Him of His doings.”

    The foregoing is my own personal view to which I welcome any amendments, challenges, refutations, debate, etc., although all in the spirit of fellowship and loving kindness.

  • Inge Barthel

    The Primal Point from which all creation came forth is God. I strongly dispute that any living person can claim to be that Primal Point. To me it is personality cult. It has nothing to do with accepting that Baha’u'llah was the transmitter of God’s latest revelation. I can accept this and yet reserve the Primal Point from which all creation issued for God alone.

    I imagine – with all awareness of my limited imagination – that Baha’u'llah “experienced” complete absorption into the mind of God and therefore began to believe himself that he is identical with God. This, I think was his greatest stumbling block and downfall. Going by the accounts of Buddhist teachers and accomplished mystics it is very plausible that such a thing might have happened. But a Buddhist has usually practised for many years and received many instructions and teachings describing this state of union with the divine. Among those teachings are also safeguards against over-identification and awareness of the pitfalls.

    Then again, Baha’u'llah’s mission and purpose was different from that of a Buddhist. He was chosen by an act of God and had to deal with his experience as best he could. Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying that he should have done differently. I think whatever he did was within God’s plan including his obvious “mistakes”. Those mistakes serve as tests for us.

    From my perspective I find it chilling to see how many sincere and high-minded people can be brought to repeat in mindless fashion, that Baha’u'llah was this and that and beyond human judgment when he committed absolutely glaring injustice against his own family not to speak of constructing a barbaric and backward code of laws and initiates a totalitarian and controlling administration both of which are counterproductive to his own stated claim that he has the peace, tranquility and well-being of humanity at his heart.

    For example in Dzogchen teachings the teacher will not give you any rule of conduct other than the exhortation of being present and aware and act according to circumstance. All virtuous conduct flows from that. It requires that a practitioner be awake and grounded in unity consciousness or non-dual vision of reality. Of course this is not so easy. The deciding factor is whether or not a practitioner will create problems for himself or others. If he does, then his awareness was lacking.

    We could certainly assume that Baha’u'llah should have possessed such an awareness. However he created terrible problems for his second and third wife and their children. His was the obligation to protect this lady and the way to do that was to marry her. What would have stopped him to marry her in the eyes of the world but not consume the marriage? – Perhaps the woman would have felt rejected but I’m sure she would have been open to reason, if he had explained that equality of men and women entails that a man ought to have only one wife. Plus she would then have had a chance to later marry another man who really could care for her. What a tremendous role model he would have been. If he really had all-encompassing vision he would have had to see that the women and the future children could not master the situation emotionally and strife would follow.

    Baha’u'llah broke the God’s law of the new revelation and the women and his children were condemned for it. In Dzogchen there would be no such law but a requirement to correctly assess the situation. Many famous Buddhist teachers had several consorts and those women were often very accomplished teachers or practitioners themselves. So if there are no problems there is no necessity to abide by a certain rule. In Baha’u'llah’s case however he broke the rule AND he created problems. He would need to be expected to have seen the negative consequences of his actions for the women and their children, his children. After all he fathered them in an earthly way.

    Again, it is not my intention to say Baha’u'llah or any of his followers should have done differently. I only want to show that they could have done differently and that it is reasonable to think that some problems would not have occurred in that case. However, I personally see a superior benefit from the seemingly unsatisfactory situation. It gives us the chance and the challenge to rely on our own mind, our own powers of judgment and sense of justice, just as Baha’u'llah said elsewhere.

    regards
    Inge

  • Inge Barthel

    The Primal Point from which all creation came forth is God. I strongly dispute that any living person can claim to be that Primal Point. To me it is personality cult. It has nothing to do with accepting that Baha’u'llah was the transmitter of God’s latest revelation. I can accept this and yet reserve the Primal Point from which all creation issued for God alone.

    I imagine – with all awareness of my limited imagination – that Baha’u'llah “experienced” complete absorption into the mind of God and therefore began to believe himself that he is identical with God. This, I think was his greatest stumbling block and downfall. Going by the accounts of Buddhist teachers and accomplished mystics it is very plausible that such a thing might have happened. But a Buddhist has usually practised for many years and received many instructions and teachings describing this state of union with the divine. Among those teachings are also safeguards against over-identification and awareness of the pitfalls.

    Then again, Baha’u'llah’s mission and purpose was different from that of a Buddhist. He was chosen by an act of God and had to deal with his experience as best he could. Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying that he should have done differently. I think whatever he did was within God’s plan including his obvious “mistakes”. Those mistakes serve as tests for us.

    From my perspective I find it chilling to see how many sincere and high-minded people can be brought to repeat in mindless fashion, that Baha’u'llah was this and that and beyond human judgment when he committed absolutely glaring injustice against his own family not to speak of constructing a barbaric and backward code of laws and initiates a totalitarian and controlling administration both of which are counterproductive to his own stated claim that he has the peace, tranquility and well-being of humanity at his heart.

    For example in Dzogchen teachings the teacher will not give you any rule of conduct other than the exhortation of being present and aware and act according to circumstance. All virtuous conduct flows from that. It requires that a practitioner be awake and grounded in unity consciousness or non-dual vision of reality. Of course this is not so easy. The deciding factor is whether or not a practitioner will create problems for himself or others. If he does, then his awareness was lacking.

    We could certainly assume that Baha’u'llah should have possessed such an awareness. However he created terrible problems for his second and third wife and their children. His was the obligation to protect this lady and the way to do that was to marry her. What would have stopped him to marry her in the eyes of the world but not consume the marriage? – Perhaps the woman would have felt rejected but I’m sure she would have been open to reason, if he had explained that equality of men and women entails that a man ought to have only one wife. Plus she would then have had a chance to later marry another man who really could care for her. What a tremendous role model he would have been. If he really had all-encompassing vision he would have had to see that the women and the future children could not master the situation emotionally and strife would follow.

    Baha’u'llah broke the God’s law of the new revelation and the women and his children were condemned for it. In Dzogchen there would be no such law but a requirement to correctly assess the situation. Many famous Buddhist teachers had several consorts and those women were often very accomplished teachers or practitioners themselves. So if there are no problems there is no necessity to abide by a certain rule. In Baha’u'llah’s case however he broke the rule AND he created problems. He would need to be expected to have seen the negative consequences of his actions for the women and their children, his children. After all he fathered them in an earthly way.

    Again, it is not my intention to say Baha’u'llah or any of his followers should have done differently. I only want to show that they could have done differently and that it is reasonable to think that some problems would not have occurred in that case. However, I personally see a superior benefit from the seemingly unsatisfactory situation. It gives us the chance and the challenge to rely on our own mind, our own powers of judgment and sense of justice, just as Baha’u'llah said elsewhere.

    regards
    Inge

  • Andrew

    “Andrew, now I recognise the way you look at religious and spiritual laws and legitimacy. You see it very much in the same terms as in worldly life.”

    Nice broadside, Inge, but this is simply your own jaundiced interpretation, not a representation of my views. Your caricature of how I “look at religious and spiritual laws and legitimacy” betrays your presumption.

    “As soon as the new revelation was issued from God and The Bab had transmitted it to human consciousness the essential changes were manifest.”

    As recognized by whom?

    “What is received into anything must be received according to the condition of the receiver. If, therefore, my intellect is distinct from yours, what is understood by me must be distinct from what is understood by you; and consequently it will be reckoned as something individual, and be only potentially something understood.” (Newman)

    “The fact that monogamy must be implied is obvious to the sincere. Only the apologetics seem to be confused about this.”

    This implies yet another form of spiritual totalitarianism. God “issues” the new revelation, the Báb “transmits” the revelation to human consciousness, and the changes become “manifest.” But this is just rule by fiat in the name of God. Since God seems incapable of speaking for Himself, the claims of those who would speak on God’s behalf must be tested, not blindly received; otherwise, it is only patriarchy in drag, Moses or Muhammad dressed as Táhirih. If it isn’t obvious to the “sincere,” i.e., the spiritual elite, then to hell with them!, because any attempt to understand or implement the revelation through any means other than blind acceptance is simply argumentative “apologetics.”

    Humanity is coming of age; the sheep will no longer blindly follow the shepherd, whether the shepherd is Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bahá’u’lláh, or Táhirih, or those who claim to perfectly understand the revelations they received.

  • Andrew

    “Andrew, now I recognise the way you look at religious and spiritual laws and legitimacy. You see it very much in the same terms as in worldly life.”

    Nice broadside, Inge, but this is simply your own jaundiced interpretation, not a representation of my views. Your caricature of how I “look at religious and spiritual laws and legitimacy” betrays your presumption.

    “As soon as the new revelation was issued from God and The Bab had transmitted it to human consciousness the essential changes were manifest.”

    As recognized by whom?

    “What is received into anything must be received according to the condition of the receiver. If, therefore, my intellect is distinct from yours, what is understood by me must be distinct from what is understood by you; and consequently it will be reckoned as something individual, and be only potentially something understood.” (Newman)

    “The fact that monogamy must be implied is obvious to the sincere. Only the apologetics seem to be confused about this.”

    This implies yet another form of spiritual totalitarianism. God “issues” the new revelation, the Báb “transmits” the revelation to human consciousness, and the changes become “manifest.” But this is just rule by fiat in the name of God. Since God seems incapable of speaking for Himself, the claims of those who would speak on God’s behalf must be tested, not blindly received; otherwise, it is only patriarchy in drag, Moses or Muhammad dressed as Táhirih. If it isn’t obvious to the “sincere,” i.e., the spiritual elite, then to hell with them!, because any attempt to understand or implement the revelation through any means other than blind acceptance is simply argumentative “apologetics.”

    Humanity is coming of age; the sheep will no longer blindly follow the shepherd, whether the shepherd is Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bahá’u’lláh, or Táhirih, or those who claim to perfectly understand the revelations they received.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    SF,
    the “Primal Point” is one of the titles of the Bab, not Baha’u'llah.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    SF,
    the “Primal Point” is one of the titles of the Bab, not Baha’u'llah.

  • Inge Barthel

    Sure. Thanks Baquia for pointing it out. I believe though Baha’u'llah claimed for himself to be the supreme manifestation, superseding all previous prophets. From whatever limited perspective is available to me I do believe this new age is so phenomenally radically different and must move us as people through such an incredible revolution of consciousness that it seems credible to me that Baha’u'llah as the one with the ear to the ground described the source of the knowledge in those terms. Also many of his writings are wonderful expressions of this shift. However I think he over-identified himself with the source and therefore produced a melange of useful and useless information. Useless IMO is the grandstanding, the projection of enemies, the tirades, the threats, the laws and the world-order visions mainly. It’s like he was given the vision of the transformation of consciousness and then he couldn’t see how this can logically happen and tried to make rules and laws and control systems. It’s like there are two distinct personalities present in his writings. One is the prophet and the other one is the aristocrat who can’t help himself but dream of ruling people.
    regards
    Inge

  • Inge Barthel

    Sure. Thanks Baquia for pointing it out. I believe though Baha’u'llah claimed for himself to be the supreme manifestation, superseding all previous prophets. From whatever limited perspective is available to me I do believe this new age is so phenomenally radically different and must move us as people through such an incredible revolution of consciousness that it seems credible to me that Baha’u'llah as the one with the ear to the ground described the source of the knowledge in those terms. Also many of his writings are wonderful expressions of this shift. However I think he over-identified himself with the source and therefore produced a melange of useful and useless information. Useless IMO is the grandstanding, the projection of enemies, the tirades, the threats, the laws and the world-order visions mainly. It’s like he was given the vision of the transformation of consciousness and then he couldn’t see how this can logically happen and tried to make rules and laws and control systems. It’s like there are two distinct personalities present in his writings. One is the prophet and the other one is the aristocrat who can’t help himself but dream of ruling people.
    regards
    Inge

  • Sincere Friend

    Anything that can be attributed to one Manifestation can be attributed to all of Them.

  • Sincere Friend

    Anything that can be attributed to one Manifestation can be attributed to all of Them.

  • Sincere Friend

    Dear Friend Inge,

    God is above all attribution, so the Primal Point is created by God to act as the agency of creation. Certainly God is the creator and there is no other, but it is said repeatedly in the Writings that God is above any connection or attribution of creation.

    I appreciate your comments on Dzogchen and I quite agree, most of law can be discerned intuitively by those who choose to be conscious and have some capacity for reflection, but Baha u llahs revelation is a universal revelation and some people have to be governed by an outer authority that lays down rules of conduct, not every one can follow the Dzogchen or Dzogchen like mystic paths that involve the conscious development of consciousness and the consideration that comes with it.

    Time will tell on your perception of Baha u llah, althought I dont think it fair to blame everything that followers do on the founder of a religion. For Gods sake look how much injustice was perpetrated in the name of Christ. Surely His Holiness Jesus did not intend for those things to occur. “And Jesus wept.”, as should we all, but life and Divine revelation goes on as it must.

  • Sincere Friend

    Dear Friend Inge,

    God is above all attribution, so the Primal Point is created by God to act as the agency of creation. Certainly God is the creator and there is no other, but it is said repeatedly in the Writings that God is above any connection or attribution of creation.

    I appreciate your comments on Dzogchen and I quite agree, most of law can be discerned intuitively by those who choose to be conscious and have some capacity for reflection, but Baha u llahs revelation is a universal revelation and some people have to be governed by an outer authority that lays down rules of conduct, not every one can follow the Dzogchen or Dzogchen like mystic paths that involve the conscious development of consciousness and the consideration that comes with it.

    Time will tell on your perception of Baha u llah, althought I dont think it fair to blame everything that followers do on the founder of a religion. For Gods sake look how much injustice was perpetrated in the name of Christ. Surely His Holiness Jesus did not intend for those things to occur. “And Jesus wept.”, as should we all, but life and Divine revelation goes on as it must.

  • Sincere Friend

    “Know then that all thou hast heard and witnessed that Daystar of Truth, the Primal Point, ascribe to Himself from the designations of former times is only on account of the weakness of men and the scheme of the world of creation. Otherwise, all names and attributes revolve round His Essence and circle about the threshold of His sanctuary. For He it is Who traineth all names, revealeth all attributes, conferreth life 66 upon all beings, proclaimeth the divine verses, and arrayeth the heavenly signs. Nay, shouldst thou gaze with thine inner eye, thou wouldst find that all save Him fade into utter nothingness and are as a thing forgotten in His holy presence. “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He remaineth now what He hath ever been.” Since it hath been established that God – hallowed and glorified be He! – was alone and there was none besides Him, how can the law of change and transformation apply here? Shouldst thou reflect upon that which We have disclosed unto thee, the daystar of guidance would shine resplendent before thee in this everlasting morn, and thou wouldst be numbered therein with the pious.

    (Baha’u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 65)

    Perhaps it would seem from this that all the Names of God revolve around all the Manifestations.

  • Sincere Friend

    “Know then that all thou hast heard and witnessed that Daystar of Truth, the Primal Point, ascribe to Himself from the designations of former times is only on account of the weakness of men and the scheme of the world of creation. Otherwise, all names and attributes revolve round His Essence and circle about the threshold of His sanctuary. For He it is Who traineth all names, revealeth all attributes, conferreth life 66 upon all beings, proclaimeth the divine verses, and arrayeth the heavenly signs. Nay, shouldst thou gaze with thine inner eye, thou wouldst find that all save Him fade into utter nothingness and are as a thing forgotten in His holy presence. “God was alone; there was none else besides Him. He remaineth now what He hath ever been.” Since it hath been established that God – hallowed and glorified be He! – was alone and there was none besides Him, how can the law of change and transformation apply here? Shouldst thou reflect upon that which We have disclosed unto thee, the daystar of guidance would shine resplendent before thee in this everlasting morn, and thou wouldst be numbered therein with the pious.

    (Baha’u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 65)

    Perhaps it would seem from this that all the Names of God revolve around all the Manifestations.

  • Craig Parke

    Dear SF,

    To me the current Cosmic Test among the Baha’is is the same error that the human race keeps making over and over in that the REALITY of a Manifestation is a STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS and ***NOT*** A PERSON. It is the UNIVERSAL LIGHT and NOT the SPECIFIC LAMP.

    The one common way of seeing is limited to the constrained effects of light as a PARTICLE. The other more insightful way of seeing awakens the quantum effects of light as a WAVE.

    The current BF has fallen into completely cheap, completely dumbed down, completely embarrassing disempowered dime store idolatry and has no liberating empowering spiritual power to advance the arts and sciences of the world with great skill and insight to solve the absolutely vital and pressing dire problems among all Mankind because people are “followers of Baha’u'llah” rather than”followers of Baha’u'llah’s CONSCIOUSNESS”.

    The difference in perception is as great an expanse in the effects of a “religion” amongst the affairs Mankind as between Heaven and Hell. The current dreary mistake is the same old, same old.

    After being amazed at the empowering insights of “Eternal Archetypal Return” in the Kitab-I-Iqan, I joined the Faith and cast my lot in with the Baha’is 36 years ago because I thought this religion could overcome the ancient curse. I was wrong. It couldn’t. It is a terrible, terrible tragedy.

    The Power of the Revelation will now go onto people who manifest the WAVE EFFECTS of Baha’ullah’s CONSCIOUSNESS whether they ever heard of Him or not. That community is no longer what is called the “Baha’i Faith”. The current spiritually illiterate version of the “Baha’i Faith” can only manifest completedly dumbed down limited PARTICLE EFFECTS.

    I am sorry, but my observation is that Divine Judgment has come. Amid the horrors of Two World Wars on the brink of a Third the Baha’is shot themselves in the foot decade after decade. To my mind “Partys over. Out of time”. It’s over for the so called “Baha’i Administartive Order”.

    But the Cosmic Power of the World Age WILL GO ON to other peoples and other spiritual communities across the wide planet who can manifest the WAVE EFFECTS of the new empowering CONSCIOUSNESS of the newly born World Age. That comes from the souls of individuals. Not “groups” of people who can DO NO REAL WORK of any kind. The text said “God loves thouse who work in groups”. Not those who are “incompetent in groups”.

    The difference is bottom up individual empowering and liberating “CONSCIOUSNESS” *NOT* dead organizational top down group stage managed worship of “A PERSON”.

    Best regards,

    Craig

  • Craig Parke

    Dear SF,

    To me the current Cosmic Test among the Baha’is is the same error that the human race keeps making over and over in that the REALITY of a Manifestation is a STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS and ***NOT*** A PERSON. It is the UNIVERSAL LIGHT and NOT the SPECIFIC LAMP.

    The one common way of seeing is limited to the constrained effects of light as a PARTICLE. The other more insightful way of seeing awakens the quantum effects of light as a WAVE.

    The current BF has fallen into completely cheap, completely dumbed down, completely embarrassing disempowered dime store idolatry and has no liberating empowering spiritual power to advance the arts and sciences of the world with great skill and insight to solve the absolutely vital and pressing dire problems among all Mankind because people are “followers of Baha’u'llah” rather than”followers of Baha’u'llah’s CONSCIOUSNESS”.

    The difference in perception is as great an expanse in the effects of a “religion” amongst the affairs Mankind as between Heaven and Hell. The current dreary mistake is the same old, same old.

    After being amazed at the empowering insights of “Eternal Archetypal Return” in the Kitab-I-Iqan, I joined the Faith and cast my lot in with the Baha’is 36 years ago because I thought this religion could overcome the ancient curse. I was wrong. It couldn’t. It is a terrible, terrible tragedy.

    The Power of the Revelation will now go onto people who manifest the WAVE EFFECTS of Baha’ullah’s CONSCIOUSNESS whether they ever heard of Him or not. That community is no longer what is called the “Baha’i Faith”. The current spiritually illiterate version of the “Baha’i Faith” can only manifest completedly dumbed down limited PARTICLE EFFECTS.

    I am sorry, but my observation is that Divine Judgment has come. Amid the horrors of Two World Wars on the brink of a Third the Baha’is shot themselves in the foot decade after decade. To my mind “Partys over. Out of time”. It’s over for the so called “Baha’i Administartive Order”.

    But the Cosmic Power of the World Age WILL GO ON to other peoples and other spiritual communities across the wide planet who can manifest the WAVE EFFECTS of the new empowering CONSCIOUSNESS of the newly born World Age. That comes from the souls of individuals. Not “groups” of people who can DO NO REAL WORK of any kind. The text said “God loves thouse who work in groups”. Not those who are “incompetent in groups”.

    The difference is bottom up individual empowering and liberating “CONSCIOUSNESS” *NOT* dead organizational top down group stage managed worship of “A PERSON”.

    Best regards,

    Craig

  • Sincere Friend

    Dear Friend Craig,

    I agree with you about your comments on consciousness. In my mind thats what its all about, and in that respect you are certainly ahead of most people in your realizations.

    I think that with respect to the rest of the Bahai world and your observations of what is going on that perhaps we may yet all be surprised as I do not believe any one mind, except that of Its Author, can truly comprehend It. So I pray that you and I may have our hopes yet fulfilled by the Faith that you have come to love.

  • Sincere Friend

    Dear Friend Craig,

    I agree with you about your comments on consciousness. In my mind thats what its all about, and in that respect you are certainly ahead of most people in your realizations.

    I think that with respect to the rest of the Bahai world and your observations of what is going on that perhaps we may yet all be surprised as I do not believe any one mind, except that of Its Author, can truly comprehend It. So I pray that you and I may have our hopes yet fulfilled by the Faith that you have come to love.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    I don’t wish to enter into a theological debate, really. There is an establish nomenclature if you will and different Prophets have different titles. For example, one of the Bab’s is the Primal Point, Baha’u'llah’s Blessed Beauty, Christ’s the Son, Mohammad’s the Seal, etc….

    If we start to apply the titles randomly to other Prophets, then it will only result in confusion. Furthermore, Baha’u'llah never referred to Himself as the Primal Point.

    However, this is a minor point among the larger discussion. I don’t wish to take a fruitful dialogue on a tangent.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    I don’t wish to enter into a theological debate, really. There is an establish nomenclature if you will and different Prophets have different titles. For example, one of the Bab’s is the Primal Point, Baha’u'llah’s Blessed Beauty, Christ’s the Son, Mohammad’s the Seal, etc….

    If we start to apply the titles randomly to other Prophets, then it will only result in confusion. Furthermore, Baha’u'llah never referred to Himself as the Primal Point.

    However, this is a minor point among the larger discussion. I don’t wish to take a fruitful dialogue on a tangent.

  • Sincere Friend

    Dear Baquia you are correct in scholastic form but in essence They are all one, that is the point They make when they say, “He it is Who traineth all names, revealeth all attributes, conferreth life 66 upon all beings”. The Primal Point is not a title but a Name which reveals a reality that They all share.

    Not to digress only to clarify. Peace be upon Them and upon all of us who through Their grace we have been created.

  • Sincere Friend

    Dear Baquia you are correct in scholastic form but in essence They are all one, that is the point They make when they say, “He it is Who traineth all names, revealeth all attributes, conferreth life 66 upon all beings”. The Primal Point is not a title but a Name which reveals a reality that They all share.

    Not to digress only to clarify. Peace be upon Them and upon all of us who through Their grace we have been created.

  • bernie cain

    “One thing,and only one thing, will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this Sacred Cause,namely:the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth, in their manifold aspects, the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Baha’u'llah.”
    Shoghi Effendi.

    You Craig and I (each individual)must determine and cling to whatever we believe to be God’s desire for us. WE need to be triumphant, God is Self-sufficient.
    bernie.

  • bernie cain

    “One thing,and only one thing, will unfailingly and alone secure the undoubted triumph of this Sacred Cause,namely:the extent to which our own inner life and private character mirror forth, in their manifold aspects, the splendor of those eternal principles proclaimed by Baha’u'llah.”
    Shoghi Effendi.

    You Craig and I (each individual)must determine and cling to whatever we believe to be God’s desire for us. WE need to be triumphant, God is Self-sufficient.
    bernie.

  • Sincere Friend

    Yes there seems to be a magnetic influence when one lives the Bahai principles in ones life that imparts its effect even without speaking. Abdul Baha was noted for this kind of effect on people.

  • Sincere Friend

    Yes there seems to be a magnetic influence when one lives the Bahai principles in ones life that imparts its effect even without speaking. Abdul Baha was noted for this kind of effect on people.

  • http://twitter.com/otakuproxy Stephen Kent Gray

    Actually, Grover you don’t need a religion to be large to join unless you’re doing it because of the social dimension. I would still be a Guardianist, even if I was the only person on Earth besides the Gaurdian of the Cause of God, the Hands of the Cause of God, the International Baha’i Council, etc.

← Older Comments