Guidelines For Baha’is Serving on Institutions

If you’ve ever served on an LSA or other Baha’i institution, these guidelines may be familiar to you:

(1) Insist on doing everything through “channels.” Never permit short-cuts to be taken in order to expedite decisions.

(2) Make “speeches.” Talk as frequently as possible and at great length. Illustrate your “points” by long anecdotes and accounts of per­sonal experiences. Never hesitate to make a few appropriate “patriotic” comments.

(3) When possible, refer all matters to committees, for �further study and considera­tion.� Attempt to make the committees as large as possible — never less than five.

(4) Bring up irrelevant issues as frequently as possible.

(5) Haggle over precise wordings of com­munications, minutes, resolutions.

(6) Refer back to matters decided upon at the last meeting and attempt to re-open the question of the advisability of that decision.

(7) Advocate “caution.” Be â€?reasonable” and urge your fellow-conferees to be “reason­able” and avoid haste which might result in embarrassments or difficulties later on.

(8) Be worried about the propriety of any decision — raise the question of whether such action as is contemplated lies within the juris­diction of the group or whether it might conflict with the policy of some higher echelon.

Even though you may not have seen them spelled out exactly as above, you probably have seen most of these guidelines implemented if you’ve ever served on an assembly, council or other institution. Heck, you may have even done exactly one or two or more of them yourself.

Guess what?

They come from a 1944 CIA manual on how to sabotage an organization from within.

red-tape

You can view and download the whole declassified document: Simple Sabotage Field Manual (see page 28 for the excerpt above).

  • anonymouz

    The administrative meetings I have been in, at feast too, set time limits and have agendas that make things run smoothly and timely. But who know, maybe the CIA has infiltrated us!!!

  • anonymouz

    The administrative meetings I have been in, at feast too, set time limits and have agendas that make things run smoothly and timely. But who know, maybe the CIA has infiltrated us!!!

  • Grover

    Holy shit, is that for real! Brilliant! It is exactly how things worked on the LSA I was on. The efficiency of the meeting was inversely proportional to the number of pretty pictures/scribbles/doodles on LSA members pages.

  • Grover

    Holy shit, is that for real! Brilliant! It is exactly how things worked on the LSA I was on. The efficiency of the meeting was inversely proportional to the number of pretty pictures/scribbles/doodles on LSA members pages.

  • DistantStar

    Great. Now I’ll have flashbacks to my LSA experiences!

  • DistantStar

    Great. Now I’ll have flashbacks to my LSA experiences!

  • Craig parke

    Unless any human organization is closely monitored at all times by top executive management who often hire outside thinking to insure EVERY person at EVERY level is held 100% accountable for their performance and the organizational wealth entrusted to them, all human organizations will slowly go dysfunctionally insane. It is a law of nature. Everyone who has lived long enough and been in business organizations has observed this. Witness the phenomenon of the Dilbert comic books across many different cultures! Amazing stuff. I love that completely dysfunctional cat!

    I believe it has to do with brain chemistry and is genetic and in our DNA for some people. Some human beings absolutely love the insanity and dysfunctionality of entrenched organizations and bureaucracies. Every one on this site I am sure has been on a committee in a company at one time or another in their life where the FIRST TASK of EVERY meeting was to SET THE DATE for the NEXT meeting! This is not unique to the Baha’i Faith AT ALL, but it happens there too in many cases. Like I say, I feel it is subconscious brain chemistry in some people.

    When I worked at DDI they made huge psychological studies of these kinds of things mentioned in the CIA (must have been OSS in 1944) manual. They made money hand over fist by doing these pioneering studies.

    http://www.ddiworld.com/

    Everyone knows about Hugh Charles Troy, Jr.’s famous “flypaper report” in World War II!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Troy

    My father told me about it probably around 1957 when i was still a boy. It was a famous story in the South Pacific where my father served as a Captain in WWII. In the classic report you had to have a map of the mess hall and show where the flypaper was and how many flies were counted on each roll. You had to do daily, weekly, and monthly averages. It all started as Hugh Troy’s hoax feeding reports in to HQ to start it, but then became an actual report! If you did not send it in to CINPAC or whatever HQ it was would send you a letter “Where is your flypaper report?”

    I wonder if any Baha’i anywhere at any level these days has ever heard of the famous dysfunctional “flypaper report” hoax of WWII?

    Only now it would be in a Powerpoint Presentation with nice meaningless graphics in the impressive pie and bar charts. The high definition ketchup overlay would be impressive.

    After all, the U.S. has just had the “first MBA President” ever.

    THAT education has worked out really well. Yep.

    But I guess the “flypaper report” is, well, as the Baha’i organization itself often says these days of many things, just all part of “God’s work”.

    So it goes.

  • Craig parke

    Unless any human organization is closely monitored at all times by top executive management who often hire outside thinking to insure EVERY person at EVERY level is held 100% accountable for their performance and the organizational wealth entrusted to them, all human organizations will slowly go dysfunctionally insane. It is a law of nature. Everyone who has lived long enough and been in business organizations has observed this. Witness the phenomenon of the Dilbert comic books across many different cultures! Amazing stuff. I love that completely dysfunctional cat!

    I believe it has to do with brain chemistry and is genetic and in our DNA for some people. Some human beings absolutely love the insanity and dysfunctionality of entrenched organizations and bureaucracies. Every one on this site I am sure has been on a committee in a company at one time or another in their life where the FIRST TASK of EVERY meeting was to SET THE DATE for the NEXT meeting! This is not unique to the Baha’i Faith AT ALL, but it happens there too in many cases. Like I say, I feel it is subconscious brain chemistry in some people.

    When I worked at DDI they made huge psychological studies of these kinds of things mentioned in the CIA (must have been OSS in 1944) manual. They made money hand over fist by doing these pioneering studies.

    http://www.ddiworld.com/

    Everyone knows about Hugh Charles Troy, Jr.’s famous “flypaper report” in World War II!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Troy

    My father told me about it probably around 1957 when i was still a boy. It was a famous story in the South Pacific where my father served as a Captain in WWII. In the classic report you had to have a map of the mess hall and show where the flypaper was and how many flies were counted on each roll. You had to do daily, weekly, and monthly averages. It all started as Hugh Troy’s hoax feeding reports in to HQ to start it, but then became an actual report! If you did not send it in to CINPAC or whatever HQ it was would send you a letter “Where is your flypaper report?”

    I wonder if any Baha’i anywhere at any level these days has ever heard of the famous dysfunctional “flypaper report” hoax of WWII?

    Only now it would be in a Powerpoint Presentation with nice meaningless graphics in the impressive pie and bar charts. The high definition ketchup overlay would be impressive.

    After all, the U.S. has just had the “first MBA President” ever.

    THAT education has worked out really well. Yep.

    But I guess the “flypaper report” is, well, as the Baha’i organization itself often says these days of many things, just all part of “God’s work”.

    So it goes.

  • anonymouz

    I think it really depends on who is on the assembly. Some people are experienced with board rooms and know how to move things along. Lets face it, some communities have more to worry about than others…New York City for example has 900-1200 people for one LSA. Other little communities are only LSAs…I can see how that would get tedious…A meeting once every few months would be enough.

    The good thing is that LSAs are given quite a range of freedom to manage their own affairs as they need to.

    I think this post is too generalizing. It must be noted that if non-Baha’is read this non-sense they may think the whole system is like this, which it is clearly not.

  • anonymouz

    I think it really depends on who is on the assembly. Some people are experienced with board rooms and know how to move things along. Lets face it, some communities have more to worry about than others…New York City for example has 900-1200 people for one LSA. Other little communities are only LSAs…I can see how that would get tedious…A meeting once every few months would be enough.

    The good thing is that LSAs are given quite a range of freedom to manage their own affairs as they need to.

    I think this post is too generalizing. It must be noted that if non-Baha’is read this non-sense they may think the whole system is like this, which it is clearly not.

  • DistantStar

    No, it’s not always that bad, but having been shoved onto an LSA pretty much against my will (well, I was willing at first) because I was in one of those areas where the Assembly WAS the community, I saw some pretty petty, ridiculous stuff, such as the two hours we once spent (well, I didn’t say anything much) arguing over when to have the next useless meeting!

    Outside of meetings they were an okay group of people, but getting them together and playing Important Meeting was painful.

  • DistantStar

    No, it’s not always that bad, but having been shoved onto an LSA pretty much against my will (well, I was willing at first) because I was in one of those areas where the Assembly WAS the community, I saw some pretty petty, ridiculous stuff, such as the two hours we once spent (well, I didn’t say anything much) arguing over when to have the next useless meeting!

    Outside of meetings they were an okay group of people, but getting them together and playing Important Meeting was painful.

  • Andrew Turvey

    This is nothing like any Baha’i Assembly or Committee I’ve ever served on.

  • Andrew Turvey

    This is nothing like any Baha’i Assembly or Committee I’ve ever served on.

  • anonymouz

    I agree…Just today I needed a letter for immigration from my assembly and I sent the email at around 10am and its ready for pick up tonight.

    Efficient.

  • anonymouz

    I agree…Just today I needed a letter for immigration from my assembly and I sent the email at around 10am and its ready for pick up tonight.

    Efficient.

  • http://www.sonjavank.com sonja

    Brilliant Bacquia.
    Yes it reminded me of some LSA meetings!, not all, thank goodness.
    One particularly bad experience I had was when no member of the LSA was allowed to add anything to the agenda unless a majority agreed that it could be added first. I wanted to discuss changing the day of the week we met, because being a new member on this LSA, a Friday night was very difficult for me. I tried repeatedly to get this up for discussion and each time, there was no majority that would allow this to be discussed.

    I solved the problem in the end!

    I worked out that correspondence to the LSA was read and discussed without there needing to be a majority vote. So I wrote a letter to the L.S.A. asking if they would consider meeting on an evening that was not a Friday night. And lo, yes, then it was discussed.

    I don’t even remember now if the evening was changed or not now, only the stress in trying to get something put on the agenda and other inflexibilities of this period of this LSA. In the year or so that I was on this LSA, they never changed this rule b.t.w. and for all I know still continue in this fashion.

    The experiences were so horrible that when voted onto another LSA a few years ago. New people, new location, but I really had been burned by the experiences of that other LSA.
    I declined, adding that there were others in our community and if none would serve, I said would then accept but on the understanding that I would never or be very unlikely to go to meetings. At first 3 or 4 individuals were shocked and horrified that I said such a thing, and told me -nicely- that I HAD to serve.
    In the end it might have been a very good thing I did this because it transpired that the LSA had a good talk about my actions and then accepted my decision, so hopefully those 3 or 4 individuals will be more flexible in the future. The LSA voted for another person and as far as I know there were no ill feelings, at least not for me.

    I realise of course, if everyone did this, then there would be no LSAs, but… in all honesty I would have been extremely unhappy serving on the LSA, knowing that I’d have to give up on all volunteer stuff (see: http://www.bahai-library.com/bafa/), knowing that if I did, BAFA would die, and I think that would be a much greater shame being such an art addict as I am :)

    So my declining to serve was not just because of the awful experiences (I’ve also had wonderful experiences on an LSA in New Zealand btw) but because I placed a greater priority on the stuff I do in the arts in a Bahai context. I’ve heard individual Bahais claim that if voted for, we have to accept this. I see it differently. If voted for and if thie is going to be detrimentrial, then I should take the responsibility and do something about it.

    The best LSAs I was on were ones that delegated, had open books and informed its community about what it was doing.

  • http://www.sonjavank.com sonja

    Brilliant Bacquia.
    Yes it reminded me of some LSA meetings!, not all, thank goodness.
    One particularly bad experience I had was when no member of the LSA was allowed to add anything to the agenda unless a majority agreed that it could be added first. I wanted to discuss changing the day of the week we met, because being a new member on this LSA, a Friday night was very difficult for me. I tried repeatedly to get this up for discussion and each time, there was no majority that would allow this to be discussed.

    I solved the problem in the end!

    I worked out that correspondence to the LSA was read and discussed without there needing to be a majority vote. So I wrote a letter to the L.S.A. asking if they would consider meeting on an evening that was not a Friday night. And lo, yes, then it was discussed.

    I don’t even remember now if the evening was changed or not now, only the stress in trying to get something put on the agenda and other inflexibilities of this period of this LSA. In the year or so that I was on this LSA, they never changed this rule b.t.w. and for all I know still continue in this fashion.

    The experiences were so horrible that when voted onto another LSA a few years ago. New people, new location, but I really had been burned by the experiences of that other LSA.
    I declined, adding that there were others in our community and if none would serve, I said would then accept but on the understanding that I would never or be very unlikely to go to meetings. At first 3 or 4 individuals were shocked and horrified that I said such a thing, and told me -nicely- that I HAD to serve.
    In the end it might have been a very good thing I did this because it transpired that the LSA had a good talk about my actions and then accepted my decision, so hopefully those 3 or 4 individuals will be more flexible in the future. The LSA voted for another person and as far as I know there were no ill feelings, at least not for me.

    I realise of course, if everyone did this, then there would be no LSAs, but… in all honesty I would have been extremely unhappy serving on the LSA, knowing that I’d have to give up on all volunteer stuff (see: http://www.bahai-library.com/bafa/), knowing that if I did, BAFA would die, and I think that would be a much greater shame being such an art addict as I am :)

    So my declining to serve was not just because of the awful experiences (I’ve also had wonderful experiences on an LSA in New Zealand btw) but because I placed a greater priority on the stuff I do in the arts in a Bahai context. I’ve heard individual Bahais claim that if voted for, we have to accept this. I see it differently. If voted for and if thie is going to be detrimentrial, then I should take the responsibility and do something about it.

    The best LSAs I was on were ones that delegated, had open books and informed its community about what it was doing.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Obviously not all Baha’i institutions have been infiltrated by CIA operatives. But keep your eyes open for they are out there.
    ;-)

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Obviously not all Baha’i institutions have been infiltrated by CIA operatives. But keep your eyes open for they are out there.
    ;-)

  • p

    “…New York City for example has 900-1200 people for one LSA”

    NYC has only about 1,000 members? But, the population of NYC is over 8M. Wow, the Bahai community is shrinking worse than I thought. I used to live in NYC and I could have sworn it had more than 1K bahais in it in the 70s/80s.

  • p

    “…New York City for example has 900-1200 people for one LSA”

    NYC has only about 1,000 members? But, the population of NYC is over 8M. Wow, the Bahai community is shrinking worse than I thought. I used to live in NYC and I could have sworn it had more than 1K bahais in it in the 70s/80s.

  • anonymouz

    No that is the NYC proper community, consider all the boroughs and neighborhoods and it is much more with many assemblies…all big communities in the NYC area…

    Did you guys see the new video?

  • anonymouz

    No that is the NYC proper community, consider all the boroughs and neighborhoods and it is much more with many assemblies…all big communities in the NYC area…

    Did you guys see the new video?

  • p

    So are you talking just about Manhattan? Is that NYC proper? That’s still 1.5 M. 1,000 out of 1.5M is better, but it’s still a fraction of the population. So what is the number of Bahais for all of NYC? Anywhere we can find accurate data on this?

  • p

    So are you talking just about Manhattan? Is that NYC proper? That’s still 1.5 M. 1,000 out of 1.5M is better, but it’s still a fraction of the population. So what is the number of Bahais for all of NYC? Anywhere we can find accurate data on this?

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    p, you can try the census bureau but keep in mind that proper and accurate measurement of Baha’i community membership numbers has been a contentious issue for a long time.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    p, you can try the census bureau but keep in mind that proper and accurate measurement of Baha’i community membership numbers has been a contentious issue for a long time.

  • anonymouz

    Second point…I may have miss-quoted from memory an article I think I read in the American Baha’i which quoted a secretary of an LSA in the New York area…so don’t take my word. It is probably something completely different.

  • anonymouz

    Second point…I may have miss-quoted from memory an article I think I read in the American Baha’i which quoted a secretary of an LSA in the New York area…so don’t take my word. It is probably something completely different.

  • Bird

    I never served on any institution. Went to 14 votes and each time the same people were elected with an exceptional year once in awhile where a new of age, 21 was put in or new resident transfer in to give an old timer a year off. I’d been in the counting room, there were a few close calls for me a few times and I would have had the experience but alas I always fell short by that one vote – my own.

    But I really enjoyed this blog, must be CIA (Critical Interruption Agents) everywhere…

    and Baquia— where do you find this stuff? amazing…

  • Bird

    I never served on any institution. Went to 14 votes and each time the same people were elected with an exceptional year once in awhile where a new of age, 21 was put in or new resident transfer in to give an old timer a year off. I’d been in the counting room, there were a few close calls for me a few times and I would have had the experience but alas I always fell short by that one vote – my own.

    But I really enjoyed this blog, must be CIA (Critical Interruption Agents) everywhere…

    and Baquia— where do you find this stuff? amazing…

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Sonja, that’s a great story, didn’t Kafka write something similar?

    Bird, I have friends in high and low places (as well as shadowy and dank places)
    :-)

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Sonja, that’s a great story, didn’t Kafka write something similar?

    Bird, I have friends in high and low places (as well as shadowy and dank places)
    :-)

  • Craig Parke

    Yes. Interesting story Sonja.

    As I posted before, there are world class management consulting companies out there making money hand over fist on (1) the principles of human interaction in the New World Age that Baha’u’llah brought (2) getting hefty consulting fees for helping companies solve the huge mess of unprofitability business organizations can get into when they don’t practice them.

    Companies that can consult at every level and ferret out the real “ground truth” of any situation eventually make money hand over fist. Such practices of real and vibrant “straight talk” consultation liberate creativity among the workers who have the actual power to solve “the problem” in their proper sphere of daily action. As everyone here knows from experience in their business life where you have to solve problems, you must empower the “talent” – real problem solvers in any situation. You must determine who they really are not who you think they are. These are ALWAYS the people directly effected by the situation on the “shop floor” at the “tip of the spear” where the “rubber meets the road”. You must liberate and empower creativity in the proper sphere otherwise there will be failure to thrive in a business and eventually death by bankruptcy.

    The Baha’i Faith itself is one of the greatest learning laboratories on Earth for almost mathematically NOT practicing what they preach! What a gold mine of pure management consulting insight has been lost and gone to other people.

    I spent 36 years in the Baha’i Faith in many different capacities. Anyone here who has served long years in the AO knows the stories are amazing. Nothing EVER improves in the Baha’i Faith itself no matter how hard everyone tries but other people effortlessly take the ideas and make money like rain. I have always wondered why?

    I am not familiar with their current organizational analysis concepts, but when I worked at DDI in the late 1990′s as a software engineer/programmer (myself and a colleague wrote the ENTIRE hiring evaluation process system that hired 1,000 Viagra salesmen for Pfizer NATIONWIDE!) I used to talk with some of the organizational psychologists on their current seminars and management training courses. One of the big principles in their seminars back then was the concept of “organizational disconnects”. They had some kind of analysis on progressive levels of measuring “fatal disconnects” in an organization that once you reached critical mass in disconnects your organization was toast.

    One of the key metrics on disconnects reaching a fatal level was turnover in an organization in critical positions that require seasoned keen and steady insight. Especially turnover of core resilient problem solving talent. There were the “mine canaries”. You have to keep monitoring them if you want your organization to thrive.

    Anyone here who ever served in the military, knows that there are all kinds of psychological ques about the level of realistic unit cohesion present at any given time. When a unit is about to break there are signs. One is a large amount of people serving in positions for which they were never trained. Read the secret history of some American units in the Korean War. Note the current stop loss situation in Iraq. It is eye opening as to the current situation.

    In a business that is failing you always look at the travel budget of the top and near top operations executives if you are going to buy their product, service, or stock. In truly struggling companies it will always be very high as “executives” travel about trying to “fact find” and hold “meetings” to avoid the real issues that should have been addressed long ago that brought things to a slowly developing but eventual full fledged crisis in the first place. It is all just a form of psychotherapy at that point for a tiny clique of psyches “running-on-empty” functioning in a hall of mirrors of their own making. If their “findings” necessitate “re-organization” the company is in trouble but might have a chance if new blood and new thinking is liberated on the first re-structure. But when it becomes a litany of “continuous reorganization” with NO CHANGES among the people at the top whatsoever you know the end is near. It is at that point only the rearrangement of desk chairs on the Titanic. When the travel budget is at zero is no more psychotherapy. Pink slips will be coming for the workers very soon as layoffs start. But not, of course, for the people at the top. They just start quietly exercising and dumping stock options and lining up their next job. Enron was a prime example. There are many.

    http://www.ddiworld.com/

    Organizational psychology is a science of this New World Age and new cycle of human empowerment. These insights are helping every organization on Earth where people have to be held accountable for their performance in performing their duties. But these systems of insight will not help the Baha’i Faith. Because in the Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith no one is ever held accountable for anything. Ever.

    The stories are legend.

    For some real tragic lessons this past week that are not being covered by the MSM at all, type DESC and MCEL into Google Financials and read the latest. The people currently at the top of the AO would do well to study what happened to these companies of some very talented people during the last eight years of oil men at the top playing a loaded deck in the lack of economic development for a future that is coming like a Tsunami at the gas pump for every citizen.

    What now?

    In the BAO you had at one time many people knowledgeable about “alternative” sources of spiritual energy “off” the grid. But the conventional “oil men” at the top were interested in top down hydrocarbon based fuels only.

    So it goes.

  • Craig Parke

    Yes. Interesting story Sonja.

    As I posted before, there are world class management consulting companies out there making money hand over fist on (1) the principles of human interaction in the New World Age that Baha’u’llah brought (2) getting hefty consulting fees for helping companies solve the huge mess of unprofitability business organizations can get into when they don’t practice them.

    Companies that can consult at every level and ferret out the real “ground truth” of any situation eventually make money hand over fist. Such practices of real and vibrant “straight talk” consultation liberate creativity among the workers who have the actual power to solve “the problem” in their proper sphere of daily action. As everyone here knows from experience in their business life where you have to solve problems, you must empower the “talent” – real problem solvers in any situation. You must determine who they really are not who you think they are. These are ALWAYS the people directly effected by the situation on the “shop floor” at the “tip of the spear” where the “rubber meets the road”. You must liberate and empower creativity in the proper sphere otherwise there will be failure to thrive in a business and eventually death by bankruptcy.

    The Baha’i Faith itself is one of the greatest learning laboratories on Earth for almost mathematically NOT practicing what they preach! What a gold mine of pure management consulting insight has been lost and gone to other people.

    I spent 36 years in the Baha’i Faith in many different capacities. Anyone here who has served long years in the AO knows the stories are amazing. Nothing EVER improves in the Baha’i Faith itself no matter how hard everyone tries but other people effortlessly take the ideas and make money like rain. I have always wondered why?

    I am not familiar with their current organizational analysis concepts, but when I worked at DDI in the late 1990′s as a software engineer/programmer (myself and a colleague wrote the ENTIRE hiring evaluation process system that hired 1,000 Viagra salesmen for Pfizer NATIONWIDE!) I used to talk with some of the organizational psychologists on their current seminars and management training courses. One of the big principles in their seminars back then was the concept of “organizational disconnects”. They had some kind of analysis on progressive levels of measuring “fatal disconnects” in an organization that once you reached critical mass in disconnects your organization was toast.

    One of the key metrics on disconnects reaching a fatal level was turnover in an organization in critical positions that require seasoned keen and steady insight. Especially turnover of core resilient problem solving talent. There were the “mine canaries”. You have to keep monitoring them if you want your organization to thrive.

    Anyone here who ever served in the military, knows that there are all kinds of psychological ques about the level of realistic unit cohesion present at any given time. When a unit is about to break there are signs. One is a large amount of people serving in positions for which they were never trained. Read the secret history of some American units in the Korean War. Note the current stop loss situation in Iraq. It is eye opening as to the current situation.

    In a business that is failing you always look at the travel budget of the top and near top operations executives if you are going to buy their product, service, or stock. In truly struggling companies it will always be very high as “executives” travel about trying to “fact find” and hold “meetings” to avoid the real issues that should have been addressed long ago that brought things to a slowly developing but eventual full fledged crisis in the first place. It is all just a form of psychotherapy at that point for a tiny clique of psyches “running-on-empty” functioning in a hall of mirrors of their own making. If their “findings” necessitate “re-organization” the company is in trouble but might have a chance if new blood and new thinking is liberated on the first re-structure. But when it becomes a litany of “continuous reorganization” with NO CHANGES among the people at the top whatsoever you know the end is near. It is at that point only the rearrangement of desk chairs on the Titanic. When the travel budget is at zero is no more psychotherapy. Pink slips will be coming for the workers very soon as layoffs start. But not, of course, for the people at the top. They just start quietly exercising and dumping stock options and lining up their next job. Enron was a prime example. There are many.

    http://www.ddiworld.com/

    Organizational psychology is a science of this New World Age and new cycle of human empowerment. These insights are helping every organization on Earth where people have to be held accountable for their performance in performing their duties. But these systems of insight will not help the Baha’i Faith. Because in the Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith no one is ever held accountable for anything. Ever.

    The stories are legend.

    For some real tragic lessons this past week that are not being covered by the MSM at all, type DESC and MCEL into Google Financials and read the latest. The people currently at the top of the AO would do well to study what happened to these companies of some very talented people during the last eight years of oil men at the top playing a loaded deck in the lack of economic development for a future that is coming like a Tsunami at the gas pump for every citizen.

    What now?

    In the BAO you had at one time many people knowledgeable about “alternative” sources of spiritual energy “off” the grid. But the conventional “oil men” at the top were interested in top down hydrocarbon based fuels only.

    So it goes.

  • Anonymouz

    Here we go again Craig. “Generalizing” should be your middle name.

    I refuse to believe anything you say anymore because it is so encompassing and categorical that a little digging would prove you wrong in each statement. Why can’t you acknowledge that this is a process and albeit people stumble, our aim and goal has not changed. It seems you have given up and thrown in the towel based on your experiences you had. We’ll bud, i’m sorry to see you quit. May I remind you that you must be the change you wish to see.

  • Anonymouz

    Here we go again Craig. “Generalizing” should be your middle name.

    I refuse to believe anything you say anymore because it is so encompassing and categorical that a little digging would prove you wrong in each statement. Why can’t you acknowledge that this is a process and albeit people stumble, our aim and goal has not changed. It seems you have given up and thrown in the towel based on your experiences you had. We’ll bud, i’m sorry to see you quit. May I remind you that you must be the change you wish to see.

  • ep

    AnonZZZ,

    Again, you sound like a giant dufus who can’t learn anything from people that have “been there, done that”.

    READ ABOUT LORD ACTONS’ LIFE, AND WHY HE SAID “POWER CORRUPTS, AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY”.

    Acton was a very deep thinker, unlike most Baha’is.

    ALSO: READ CRAIG’S PREVIOUS POSTS for the ugly details of what happens in the “real world” of bahai administration. Or look up a couple of my past posts that are full of details about repeated history of HORRIFIC ABUSES OF POWER by bahai bureaucrats going back to at least the 1920s in both North America and Iran.

    The current form of the bahai system is CLEARLY elitist and racist in its origins, contrary to the propaganda that stupid people blindly follow and regurgitate.

    fwiw: I became a bahai in the early 70s in the D.C. area. Senior “grass roots” bahais at that time were seriously discussing how much infiltration the FBI was doing within the bahai community.

    All social change movements were probably infiltrated in the 50s/60s by the FBI, as a result of anti-communist efforts, e.g., Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, etc. The 60s were very tense. The US Army almost had to take over the government at the high point of the Nixon “Watergate’ scandle (my father was a senior officer in the Pentagon). Our phone was bugged when he was flying combat missions in Vietnam in 1968, probably because my mother was a civil rights activist. You have NO IDEA what could have happened back then.

    There were many groups dedicated to violent overthrow of the “americam system”, and the FBI was dedicated to stopping them by any means necessary. If a few “harmless” organizations were f*cked up by overzealous intelligence operatives (infiltrators), that was just “collateral damage”.

    If you take even a brief look at all of the infiltrations and meddling that the CIA did in a huge number of countries during the “cold war”, you will come to an understanding of how little respect for laws or civil rights the US intelligence agencies have.

    The people (e.g., Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld) that started the Iraq war were “junior executives” during the Watergate scandle and FBI/CIA infiltrations of social change groups in the 50s/60s.

    Unfortunately once the tactics that Baquia has exposed take root in an organization, they become very self-perpetuating for the reasons that Craig has explained, and almost impossible to get rid of.

    Regards,
    Eric P.
    (ex-bahai, after 30+ years)
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="52943"]Here we go again Craig. “Generalizing” should be your middle name.

    I refuse to believe anything you say anymore because it is so encompassing and categorical that a little digging would prove you wrong in each statement. Why can’t you acknowledge that this is a process and albeit people stumble, our aim and goal has not changed. It seems you have given up and thrown in the towel based on your experiences you had. We’ll bud, i’m sorry to see you quit. May I remind you that you must be the change you wish to see.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Here we go again Craig. “Generalizing” should be your middle name.

    I refuse to believe anything you say anymore because it is so encompassing and categorical that a little digging would prove you wrong in each statement. Why can’t you acknowledge that this is a process and albeit people stumble, our aim and goal has not changed. It seems you have given up and thrown in the towel based on your experiences you had. We’ll bud, i’m sorry to see you quit. May I remind you that you must be the change you wish to see.[/quote]

  • ep

    AnonZZZ,

    Again, you sound like a giant dufus who can’t learn anything from people that have “been there, done that”.

    READ ABOUT LORD ACTONS’ LIFE, AND WHY HE SAID “POWER CORRUPTS, AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY”.

    Acton was a very deep thinker, unlike most Baha’is.

    ALSO: READ CRAIG’S PREVIOUS POSTS for the ugly details of what happens in the “real world” of bahai administration. Or look up a couple of my past posts that are full of details about repeated history of HORRIFIC ABUSES OF POWER by bahai bureaucrats going back to at least the 1920s in both North America and Iran.

    The current form of the bahai system is CLEARLY elitist and racist in its origins, contrary to the propaganda that stupid people blindly follow and regurgitate.

    fwiw: I became a bahai in the early 70s in the D.C. area. Senior “grass roots” bahais at that time were seriously discussing how much infiltration the FBI was doing within the bahai community.

    All social change movements were probably infiltrated in the 50s/60s by the FBI, as a result of anti-communist efforts, e.g., Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, etc. The 60s were very tense. The US Army almost had to take over the government at the high point of the Nixon “Watergate’ scandle (my father was a senior officer in the Pentagon). Our phone was bugged when he was flying combat missions in Vietnam in 1968, probably because my mother was a civil rights activist. You have NO IDEA what could have happened back then.

    There were many groups dedicated to violent overthrow of the “americam system”, and the FBI was dedicated to stopping them by any means necessary. If a few “harmless” organizations were f*cked up by overzealous intelligence operatives (infiltrators), that was just “collateral damage”.

    If you take even a brief look at all of the infiltrations and meddling that the CIA did in a huge number of countries during the “cold war”, you will come to an understanding of how little respect for laws or civil rights the US intelligence agencies have.

    The people (e.g., Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld) that started the Iraq war were “junior executives” during the Watergate scandle and FBI/CIA infiltrations of social change groups in the 50s/60s.

    Unfortunately once the tactics that Baquia has exposed take root in an organization, they become very self-perpetuating for the reasons that Craig has explained, and almost impossible to get rid of.

    Regards,
    Eric P.
    (ex-bahai, after 30+ years)
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="52943"]Here we go again Craig. “Generalizing” should be your middle name.

    I refuse to believe anything you say anymore because it is so encompassing and categorical that a little digging would prove you wrong in each statement. Why can’t you acknowledge that this is a process and albeit people stumble, our aim and goal has not changed. It seems you have given up and thrown in the towel based on your experiences you had. We’ll bud, i’m sorry to see you quit. May I remind you that you must be the change you wish to see.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Here we go again Craig. “Generalizing” should be your middle name.

    I refuse to believe anything you say anymore because it is so encompassing and categorical that a little digging would prove you wrong in each statement. Why can’t you acknowledge that this is a process and albeit people stumble, our aim and goal has not changed. It seems you have given up and thrown in the towel based on your experiences you had. We’ll bud, i’m sorry to see you quit. May I remind you that you must be the change you wish to see.[/quote]

  • ep

    Sorry, forgot one additional item of importance:

    Even if the FBI or other intelligence agancies didn’t actually infiltrate the bahais community in the usa in the 50s/60s, the possibility that the community was being surveiled by such agencies was undoubtedly known by some elements of the bahai leadership elites, and could have led to a tendency to become more “conservative” in order to avoid suspicion. Certainly the Iranian bahais were adept at trying to avoid scrutiny by various paranoid officials.

    Regards,
    Eric P.
    (ex-bahai, after 30+ years)
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="53637"]
    . . .

    The current form of the bahai system is CLEARLY elitist and racist in its origins, contrary to the propaganda that stupid people blindly follow and regurgitate.

    fwiw: I became a bahai in the early 70s in the D.C. area. Senior “grass roots” bahais at that time were seriously discussing how much infiltration the FBI was doing within the bahai community.

    All social change movements were probably infiltrated in the 50s/60s by the FBI, as a result of anti-communist efforts, e.g., Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, etc. The 60s were very tense. The US Army almost had to take over the government at the high point of the Nixon “Watergate’ scandle (my father was a senior officer in the Pentagon). Our phone was bugged when he was flying combat missions in Vietnam in 1968, probably because my mother was a civil rights activist. You have NO IDEA what could have happened back then.

    There were many groups dedicated to violent overthrow of the “americam system”, and the FBI was dedicated to stopping them by any means necessary. If a few “harmless” organizations were f*cked up by overzealous intelligence operatives (infiltrators), that was just “collateral damage”.

    If you take even a brief look at all of the infiltrations and meddling that the CIA did in a huge number of countries during the “cold war”, you will come to an understanding of how little respect for laws or civil rights the US intelligence agencies have.

    The people (e.g., Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld) that started the Iraq war were “junior executives” during the Watergate scandle and FBI/CIA infiltrations of social change groups in the 50s/60s.
    . . .

    [/quote]

  • ep

    Sorry, forgot one additional item of importance:

    Even if the FBI or other intelligence agancies didn’t actually infiltrate the bahais community in the usa in the 50s/60s, the possibility that the community was being surveiled by such agencies was undoubtedly known by some elements of the bahai leadership elites, and could have led to a tendency to become more “conservative” in order to avoid suspicion. Certainly the Iranian bahais were adept at trying to avoid scrutiny by various paranoid officials.

    Regards,
    Eric P.
    (ex-bahai, after 30+ years)
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="53637"]
    . . .

    The current form of the bahai system is CLEARLY elitist and racist in its origins, contrary to the propaganda that stupid people blindly follow and regurgitate.

    fwiw: I became a bahai in the early 70s in the D.C. area. Senior “grass roots” bahais at that time were seriously discussing how much infiltration the FBI was doing within the bahai community.

    All social change movements were probably infiltrated in the 50s/60s by the FBI, as a result of anti-communist efforts, e.g., Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, etc. The 60s were very tense. The US Army almost had to take over the government at the high point of the Nixon “Watergate’ scandle (my father was a senior officer in the Pentagon). Our phone was bugged when he was flying combat missions in Vietnam in 1968, probably because my mother was a civil rights activist. You have NO IDEA what could have happened back then.

    There were many groups dedicated to violent overthrow of the “americam system”, and the FBI was dedicated to stopping them by any means necessary. If a few “harmless” organizations were f*cked up by overzealous intelligence operatives (infiltrators), that was just “collateral damage”.

    If you take even a brief look at all of the infiltrations and meddling that the CIA did in a huge number of countries during the “cold war”, you will come to an understanding of how little respect for laws or civil rights the US intelligence agencies have.

    The people (e.g., Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld) that started the Iraq war were “junior executives” during the Watergate scandle and FBI/CIA infiltrations of social change groups in the 50s/60s.
    . . .

    [/quote]

  • Julie

    These experiences being discussed are sorry situations, and show the difficult realities of being Baha’i, serving, and accepting the challenges of living a Baha’i life. I, too, could rant about some things in my experience through the years, but instead I look back and marvel at the blessings that came from our efforts….virtues like patience and humility that were tested and developed…and the great service of those who serve. It is not written that being a Baha’i is easy or natural. It is a most challenging pathway…and the best decision I ever made in my fourth decade of life. We Americans would rather sit back and critique our governmental and religious structures – all others. Being a Baha’i means taking responsibility onto one’s shoulders…striving our best to do our part. Keep praying, bringing your own self to account, and trying, dear ones. You’ll be glad you did.

    Hugs, Julie

  • Julie

    These experiences being discussed are sorry situations, and show the difficult realities of being Baha’i, serving, and accepting the challenges of living a Baha’i life. I, too, could rant about some things in my experience through the years, but instead I look back and marvel at the blessings that came from our efforts….virtues like patience and humility that were tested and developed…and the great service of those who serve. It is not written that being a Baha’i is easy or natural. It is a most challenging pathway…and the best decision I ever made in my fourth decade of life. We Americans would rather sit back and critique our governmental and religious structures – all others. Being a Baha’i means taking responsibility onto one’s shoulders…striving our best to do our part. Keep praying, bringing your own self to account, and trying, dear ones. You’ll be glad you did.

    Hugs, Julie

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]These experiences being discussed are sorry situations, and show the difficult realities of being Baha’i, serving, and accepting the challenges of living a Baha’i life…We Americans would rather sit back and critique our governmental and religious structures – all others.
    [/quote]

    Julie,

    Glenford Mitchell, former member of the UHJ, said that when U.S. troops are sent into battle everyone must “be quiet and let God do His work.”

    (1) What are you doing as a Baha’i to help with the war effort?

    (2) What are you doing as a Baha’i to help with the 40,000 recent young veterans diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stree Disorder from having to kill or be killed?

    (3) Why aren’t you in Iraq or Afghanistan right now? Age is no excuse. My oldest sister has been in Afghanistan on the ground for the last six years and she is 63 yers old. A car bomb blew up in Kabul last night killing 40 people. Why aren’t you there yourself?

    I’m sick of hearling platitudes from Baha’is who have failed all mankind as they sit in their endless meetings. Deeds not words.

    If Baha’is are supposed to support sending U.S. troops into battle to “do God’s work” then you should be there.

    I’ll be glad to do what I can to get you a job in Kabul where you can put your life on the line every single day like my sister. You can face being blown to pieces in the wonderful forth decade of your wonderful life. I think alot of people are facing alot harder lives than Baha’is and are taking much more responsibility for how things turn out in the world.

    I’ll be glad to get you on the next plane in.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]These experiences being discussed are sorry situations, and show the difficult realities of being Baha’i, serving, and accepting the challenges of living a Baha’i life…We Americans would rather sit back and critique our governmental and religious structures – all others.
    [/quote]

    Julie,

    Glenford Mitchell, former member of the UHJ, said that when U.S. troops are sent into battle everyone must “be quiet and let God do His work.”

    (1) What are you doing as a Baha’i to help with the war effort?

    (2) What are you doing as a Baha’i to help with the 40,000 recent young veterans diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stree Disorder from having to kill or be killed?

    (3) Why aren’t you in Iraq or Afghanistan right now? Age is no excuse. My oldest sister has been in Afghanistan on the ground for the last six years and she is 63 yers old. A car bomb blew up in Kabul last night killing 40 people. Why aren’t you there yourself?

    I’m sick of hearling platitudes from Baha’is who have failed all mankind as they sit in their endless meetings. Deeds not words.

    If Baha’is are supposed to support sending U.S. troops into battle to “do God’s work” then you should be there.

    I’ll be glad to do what I can to get you a job in Kabul where you can put your life on the line every single day like my sister. You can face being blown to pieces in the wonderful forth decade of your wonderful life. I think alot of people are facing alot harder lives than Baha’is and are taking much more responsibility for how things turn out in the world.

    I’ll be glad to get you on the next plane in.

  • Julie

    Craig, You must be terribly worried about your sister. The world continues in a terrible state, it’s equilibrium verily upset.
    Unfortunately Afghanistan is not the only flashpoint in the world.

    And do we even know the enemies are anymore? If the world’s people and nations are truly one…. then…..

    I do not think Glenford Mitchell meant for us to run over to every hotspot in the world and to give our support this way you suggest. He called for calm and detachment – so God can do His work. Huge lessons are being learned from the steps and missteps taken by every nation, group and individual involved in global warfare.

    Need I remind you that there are Baha’is all over the world, struggling to make peace in a chaotic world? I’m sure some are in Afghanistan. But how they conduct themselves is not the role of our steotypical crusader…riding the white charger and all. We build communities – slowly. If this feels like arrogant pascivism to anyone, I am so sorry. Your panic is palpable. This kind of panic and revenge is what fuels fights all over the world. Perhaps you are tryig to stir panic in me, Craig.

    My job is to bring peace where I feel called to be.

    I’m outta here, dear ones. It feels a bit like a cesspool on this site.

    Julie

  • Julie

    Craig, You must be terribly worried about your sister. The world continues in a terrible state, it’s equilibrium verily upset.
    Unfortunately Afghanistan is not the only flashpoint in the world.

    And do we even know the enemies are anymore? If the world’s people and nations are truly one…. then…..

    I do not think Glenford Mitchell meant for us to run over to every hotspot in the world and to give our support this way you suggest. He called for calm and detachment – so God can do His work. Huge lessons are being learned from the steps and missteps taken by every nation, group and individual involved in global warfare.

    Need I remind you that there are Baha’is all over the world, struggling to make peace in a chaotic world? I’m sure some are in Afghanistan. But how they conduct themselves is not the role of our steotypical crusader…riding the white charger and all. We build communities – slowly. If this feels like arrogant pascivism to anyone, I am so sorry. Your panic is palpable. This kind of panic and revenge is what fuels fights all over the world. Perhaps you are tryig to stir panic in me, Craig.

    My job is to bring peace where I feel called to be.

    I’m outta here, dear ones. It feels a bit like a cesspool on this site.

    Julie

  • p

    Yep, that’s what such ‘loyal’ Bahais do when confronted with information that breaks their little bubble- run, run, RUN…Ignorance must be bliss.

  • p

    Yep, that’s what such ‘loyal’ Bahais do when confronted with information that breaks their little bubble- run, run, RUN…Ignorance must be bliss.

  • p

    Julie, if you should still happen to be around and decide to unplug thine ears for just a sec, here is the full quote from Glenford. I agree with Craig- he has reason to be pissed after so many years in the Faith being duped into believing that this man was somehow producing ‘infallible’ guidance from above. Here is the full quote from Glenford- decide for yourself:
    “You’ll recall that the U.S. was “dragged” into WWII with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Our boys were sleeping off Saturday night while the enemy schemed — but America soon woke up. So when you see the U.S. in Cambodia or in Vietnam — or when you see America’s young men in Lebanon, or knocking around in the Balkans — “please, will you be quiet and let God do His work!”

  • p

    Julie, if you should still happen to be around and decide to unplug thine ears for just a sec, here is the full quote from Glenford. I agree with Craig- he has reason to be pissed after so many years in the Faith being duped into believing that this man was somehow producing ‘infallible’ guidance from above. Here is the full quote from Glenford- decide for yourself:
    “You’ll recall that the U.S. was “dragged” into WWII with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Our boys were sleeping off Saturday night while the enemy schemed — but America soon woke up. So when you see the U.S. in Cambodia or in Vietnam — or when you see America’s young men in Lebanon, or knocking around in the Balkans — “please, will you be quiet and let God do His work!”

  • Anonnymouz

    P,

    running and hiding in your eyes is not wasting time and idle chatter to ours.

    I think I have come full circle here.

    Today I helped my org file for 501c3. We are doing some amazing things in the Middle East.

    My time is better spent elsewhere too…C ya.

  • Anonnymouz

    P,

    running and hiding in your eyes is not wasting time and idle chatter to ours.

    I think I have come full circle here.

    Today I helped my org file for 501c3. We are doing some amazing things in the Middle East.

    My time is better spent elsewhere too…C ya.

  • p

    Ok so we’ve discovered who anonymous is- it’s Julie! :o)
    But seriously glad you are doing good work in the Mid East. As Bahais, we should pout our money where our mouth is.
    But back to Julie. I don’t like spinning of any sort. She excuses Glenn’s horrible quote and then runs off to get away from this “cespool”, before I’m guessing she’s spiritually contaminated? Wel that kind of self righteousness really disgusts me and it’s one of the reasons why so many of us get tired of being in the Bahai community (to name only ONE of the reasons…)

  • p

    Ok so we’ve discovered who anonymous is- it’s Julie! :o)
    But seriously glad you are doing good work in the Mid East. As Bahais, we should pout our money where our mouth is.
    But back to Julie. I don’t like spinning of any sort. She excuses Glenn’s horrible quote and then runs off to get away from this “cespool”, before I’m guessing she’s spiritually contaminated? Wel that kind of self righteousness really disgusts me and it’s one of the reasons why so many of us get tired of being in the Bahai community (to name only ONE of the reasons…)

  • Julie

    Glenford Mitchell is a human being who happened to be elected by the Baha’is of the world and served on the UHJ for many years. I did not hear his talk, but will look for the whole context. Anyhow, he has never been infallible. I’ve heard other UHJ members speak about this – that as individuals they are not infallible…just human beings like us. It’s the Institution (all nine members consulting together)that is the Center of the Covenant now. No individual has that kind of authority in the Baha’i Faith. To put individuals on pedestals like that is a distortion of good judgment.
    To judge a religion based on a few words or behavior of some members is likewise ludicrous. I love being a Baha’i. Best wishes to you all.
    Julie

  • Julie

    Glenford Mitchell is a human being who happened to be elected by the Baha’is of the world and served on the UHJ for many years. I did not hear his talk, but will look for the whole context. Anyhow, he has never been infallible. I’ve heard other UHJ members speak about this – that as individuals they are not infallible…just human beings like us. It’s the Institution (all nine members consulting together)that is the Center of the Covenant now. No individual has that kind of authority in the Baha’i Faith. To put individuals on pedestals like that is a distortion of good judgment.
    To judge a religion based on a few words or behavior of some members is likewise ludicrous. I love being a Baha’i. Best wishes to you all.
    Julie

  • Anonnymouz

    Julie,

    Be aware that this site is a sticky one. Im trying to ween myself from bickering here…I guess I have too much time online and an itchy history button.

    Mostly bitterness honed to debating controversy. I wouldn’t try explaining anything here. I have spent the last few months going back and forth…for what I do not know…

  • Anonnymouz

    Julie,

    Be aware that this site is a sticky one. Im trying to ween myself from bickering here…I guess I have too much time online and an itchy history button.

    Mostly bitterness honed to debating controversy. I wouldn’t try explaining anything here. I have spent the last few months going back and forth…for what I do not know…

  • p

    Ok here you are Julie: http://bahai-library.com/talks/mitchell.watson.html

    but why bother reading it? It really doesn’t matter if the 9 member body is made up of people that think like Glenford, now does it? Because according to your philosophy when these guys get together suddenly- wham- they have this haol come down upon them from God. Well, not all of us who are Bahai believe that infallibility means that. I love being a Bahai too. I just don’t love the stagnation and literalism that has choked the community. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

  • p

    Ok here you are Julie: http://bahai-library.com/talks/mitchell.watson.html

    but why bother reading it? It really doesn’t matter if the 9 member body is made up of people that think like Glenford, now does it? Because according to your philosophy when these guys get together suddenly- wham- they have this haol come down upon them from God. Well, not all of us who are Bahai believe that infallibility means that. I love being a Bahai too. I just don’t love the stagnation and literalism that has choked the community. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

  • Julie

    OK p – you are anonymous, not me. I am Julie. I just read this from the address you sent – delivered in 2001 by Glenford Mitchell:
    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.”

    My bubbles are just fine, dear one. Your anger is encrusting yours.
    These bubbles are just attitudes and perceptions that shift over time. Mine have not been moved today by these posts. I hope your non-profit is doing good things, but be very careful. You think me a pussy-footer. Hahahahaha. I admire your determination, but not your arrogance, dear one. Julie

  • Julie

    OK p – you are anonymous, not me. I am Julie. I just read this from the address you sent – delivered in 2001 by Glenford Mitchell:
    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.”

    My bubbles are just fine, dear one. Your anger is encrusting yours.
    These bubbles are just attitudes and perceptions that shift over time. Mine have not been moved today by these posts. I hope your non-profit is doing good things, but be very careful. You think me a pussy-footer. Hahahahaha. I admire your determination, but not your arrogance, dear one. Julie

  • p

    Why do you think I’m angry? Because I disagree with you? Oh and btw, I think you’ve got anon and me mixed up in our posts. Read carefully next time.
    And again, the issue is not if Glen was speaking on behalf of the UHJ, but that such people are enjoy such lofty stations in the community. you can’t even bring yourself to admit that what he said was just plain wrong- that it would truly offend someone like Craig, now can you? Of course not- what a good loyal loving follower you are… yeah, arrogance. Ok if that’s what you want to believe- I’m just holding up a mirror…

  • p

    Why do you think I’m angry? Because I disagree with you? Oh and btw, I think you’ve got anon and me mixed up in our posts. Read carefully next time.
    And again, the issue is not if Glen was speaking on behalf of the UHJ, but that such people are enjoy such lofty stations in the community. you can’t even bring yourself to admit that what he said was just plain wrong- that it would truly offend someone like Craig, now can you? Of course not- what a good loyal loving follower you are… yeah, arrogance. Ok if that’s what you want to believe- I’m just holding up a mirror…

  • Julie

    Dear Anonymouz,

    Your assessment is wise. Thank you. Julie

  • Julie

    Dear Anonymouz,

    Your assessment is wise. Thank you. Julie

  • Anonnymouz

    Where do you get lofty station from? Glendford Mitchell is just a Baha’i. The highest rank a Baha’i can achieve is servant. Hes a man from the islands…thats it.

  • Anonnymouz

    Where do you get lofty station from? Glendford Mitchell is just a Baha’i. The highest rank a Baha’i can achieve is servant. Hes a man from the islands…thats it.

  • p

    right, a man from the islands who gets the podium to speak to thousands of loyal listeners telling them to step aside and not say anything when the blessed US government interves in world affairs. These ARE lofty positions in the Faith. You are 1/2 persian anon, surely you’ve heard how Iranians extol the members of the baytol-ahd. I wish for once a loyal Bahai on here would just agree with Craig that yeah, Glenford said something really stupid and so contrary against the spirit of the Faith. Craig’s not as crazy as you try to make him out be. I”m not angry, but he is; and he has every right to be.

  • p

    right, a man from the islands who gets the podium to speak to thousands of loyal listeners telling them to step aside and not say anything when the blessed US government interves in world affairs. These ARE lofty positions in the Faith. You are 1/2 persian anon, surely you’ve heard how Iranians extol the members of the baytol-ahd. I wish for once a loyal Bahai on here would just agree with Craig that yeah, Glenford said something really stupid and so contrary against the spirit of the Faith. Craig’s not as crazy as you try to make him out be. I”m not angry, but he is; and he has every right to be.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="53703"]

    Julie wrote:

    I just read this from the address you sent – delivered in 2001 by Glenford Mitchell:

    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.”
    [/quote]

    Julie,

    I apologize if I offended you. But if you are not a “pussyfooter” as you say then I guess you can take. I do not tolerate platitudes from Baha’is any more after 36 years in this completely dysfunctional organization. Deeds not words.

    So answer this:

    Why is it that members of the Universal House of Justice can make personal political statements to audiences and individual rank and file Baha’is cannot?

    If you don’t think what he said is a political statement (especially just after 9/11 which every person on Earth knew meant war was coming) I have a nice bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, New York. His completely thoughtless political statement could even now put the lives of Baha’is at risk in Muslim countries. His statement says the Baha’is should support the use of Armed Force by the United States anytime, anywhere, anyplace because it is “God’s work”. This completely offended me after, at that point, almost 30 years of dedicated service in the Faith.

    I’m tired of aswering for these completely idiotic and utterly hapless people who got them selves elected to lifetime incumbency by an electorate of dunces and passive-aggressive cowards.

    Would it ever occur to this man (or you either in your personal American comfort zone) that there are people who actually joined the Baha’i Faith BECAUSE of their horrible experiences as soldiers, sailors, airman, and marines in the Armed Forces of the United States? Would this reality even enter the head of this man who has lived his entire adult life in a sheltered bubble?

    I once absolutely loved being a Baha’i too! But not anymore. I am completely ashamed of these people and I am completely ashamed of the ridiculous and embarassing organization the Baha’i Faith has become.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="53703"]

    Julie wrote:

    I just read this from the address you sent – delivered in 2001 by Glenford Mitchell:

    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.”
    [/quote]

    Julie,

    I apologize if I offended you. But if you are not a “pussyfooter” as you say then I guess you can take. I do not tolerate platitudes from Baha’is any more after 36 years in this completely dysfunctional organization. Deeds not words.

    So answer this:

    Why is it that members of the Universal House of Justice can make personal political statements to audiences and individual rank and file Baha’is cannot?

    If you don’t think what he said is a political statement (especially just after 9/11 which every person on Earth knew meant war was coming) I have a nice bridge to sell you in Brooklyn, New York. His completely thoughtless political statement could even now put the lives of Baha’is at risk in Muslim countries. His statement says the Baha’is should support the use of Armed Force by the United States anytime, anywhere, anyplace because it is “God’s work”. This completely offended me after, at that point, almost 30 years of dedicated service in the Faith.

    I’m tired of aswering for these completely idiotic and utterly hapless people who got them selves elected to lifetime incumbency by an electorate of dunces and passive-aggressive cowards.

    Would it ever occur to this man (or you either in your personal American comfort zone) that there are people who actually joined the Baha’i Faith BECAUSE of their horrible experiences as soldiers, sailors, airman, and marines in the Armed Forces of the United States? Would this reality even enter the head of this man who has lived his entire adult life in a sheltered bubble?

    I once absolutely loved being a Baha’i too! But not anymore. I am completely ashamed of these people and I am completely ashamed of the ridiculous and embarassing organization the Baha’i Faith has become.

  • Anonymouz

    Craig,

    Individual Baha’is can say whatever they wan’t and no one can stop them. No one. However, if what they say becomes a position or point of contention, something they refuse to give up, something they cling to and keep beating like a dead horse, (ahem…like you are doing) then they would politely be remind that thier statements and positions are going against the grain of unity.

    I admit I say somethings and I also admit I may be wrong. I don’t cling to anything i say because most of the time its fluff anyway…you would surely agree on that. There is a big disclaimer that you continuously ignore at the beginning of his speech. Must I quote it?

    Its so blatantly obvious and your argument so weak any fair minded person familiar with the concept of unity would recognize that you are wrong. Glenford Mitchell has no authority and im sure if you asked him to interpret his statement he may even re-think it, maybe not. You are still too hung up on nothing but words.

  • Anonymouz

    Craig,

    Individual Baha’is can say whatever they wan’t and no one can stop them. No one. However, if what they say becomes a position or point of contention, something they refuse to give up, something they cling to and keep beating like a dead horse, (ahem…like you are doing) then they would politely be remind that thier statements and positions are going against the grain of unity.

    I admit I say somethings and I also admit I may be wrong. I don’t cling to anything i say because most of the time its fluff anyway…you would surely agree on that. There is a big disclaimer that you continuously ignore at the beginning of his speech. Must I quote it?

    Its so blatantly obvious and your argument so weak any fair minded person familiar with the concept of unity would recognize that you are wrong. Glenford Mitchell has no authority and im sure if you asked him to interpret his statement he may even re-think it, maybe not. You are still too hung up on nothing but words.

  • p

    You know what’s really scary is that neither you nor Julie nor any other “loyal” bahai active in the community has ever just said- “yeah this quote form Glenford Mitchell is wrong and blatantly against the spirit of the Faith”. To use his position (even if not representing the House) in front of a Bahai crowd to make such a statement is wrong. Why? Don’t any of you see how evil and political his words were? I just can’t believe it.

  • p

    You know what’s really scary is that neither you nor Julie nor any other “loyal” bahai active in the community has ever just said- “yeah this quote form Glenford Mitchell is wrong and blatantly against the spirit of the Faith”. To use his position (even if not representing the House) in front of a Bahai crowd to make such a statement is wrong. Why? Don’t any of you see how evil and political his words were? I just can’t believe it.

  • Nur

    P, I think it is simply attachment to what these people hold dear. When someone you love or someone you idealize says or does something that is so contrary to human dignity and decency, most peoples’ first reaction is to try to defend them, and say they were were misunderstood, or the sources of information are ‘shaky’, etc. Sometimes this is true. I’m not implying that suspicion automatically equals ‘truth’. But the fact that this man was a member of the Universal House of Justice gives him extreme credibility in the conscience of many Baha’is, even if they deny it. It’s simply the truth. If I or anyone else said something at Feast to the degree of a political statement, it would be all but two seconds before someone quoted me Shoghi Effendi saying to ‘shun politics like the plague’. But if a member of the UHJ said something, most people more than likely would internalize it and think to themselves “I wonder what he MEANT by that”, before they would quote him Shoghi Effendi. I sincerely doubt that any Baha’i, except maybe 1 or 2 on the Planet would call him out on saying something like that. I, too, wish that some of these Baha’is were more honest with themselves. But humans are humans, and we like to defend what we believe until the death, even if it is wrong.

  • Nur

    P, I think it is simply attachment to what these people hold dear. When someone you love or someone you idealize says or does something that is so contrary to human dignity and decency, most peoples’ first reaction is to try to defend them, and say they were were misunderstood, or the sources of information are ‘shaky’, etc. Sometimes this is true. I’m not implying that suspicion automatically equals ‘truth’. But the fact that this man was a member of the Universal House of Justice gives him extreme credibility in the conscience of many Baha’is, even if they deny it. It’s simply the truth. If I or anyone else said something at Feast to the degree of a political statement, it would be all but two seconds before someone quoted me Shoghi Effendi saying to ‘shun politics like the plague’. But if a member of the UHJ said something, most people more than likely would internalize it and think to themselves “I wonder what he MEANT by that”, before they would quote him Shoghi Effendi. I sincerely doubt that any Baha’i, except maybe 1 or 2 on the Planet would call him out on saying something like that. I, too, wish that some of these Baha’is were more honest with themselves. But humans are humans, and we like to defend what we believe until the death, even if it is wrong.

  • Nur

    I also wanted to say that Mr. Mitchell said something extremely unintelligent and wrong, but at the same time people should be pardoned for some of the things they say, even if they are wrong.

  • Nur

    I also wanted to say that Mr. Mitchell said something extremely unintelligent and wrong, but at the same time people should be pardoned for some of the things they say, even if they are wrong.

  • ep

    Craig,

    Well said. We have previously disagreed on some aspects of the peace issue (I’m more libertarian, you are more liberal), but I completely respect your perspective, and the validity of the experience it comes from.

    WWII was as full of horrors as Vietnam, but once it was over the WWII guys were expected to gut it out, or kill themselves with alcohol. In any case, no one would propose that WWII, or the north in the Civil War, was wrong “just because” of the horrors of war.

    The problem we have now is that USA democracy is corrupt and run by oil companies and other corporations, including media corporations that manipulate public opinion on a “business as usual” basis. So, no one is going to trust them to elect a President who can pick the “right wars” to get into.

    In any case, a world police force is clearly needed. It is a tragic and ridiculous that one itsn’t in place yet, but predictable given the inability of national governments to act in an Integral manner.

    In my opinion, the cultures that are more “evolved” have to try to intervene in regional conflicts and stop tyrants and unjust regimes operating in pre-democratic modes. Very tricky, especially given the ugly legacy of cold war geopolitics and “american imperialism lite”.

    For instance, I’m a “Save Darfur” supporter. It is appalling to me that the USA and other “advanced” countries (and UN) have allowed the government there (and Chinese who are supporting the Sudanese government to get juicy oil deals) to engage in genocide with so little action frmo the world community for years and years.

    For purposes of the understanding following excerpts: Clare Graves was one the psychological theorists that argued with Abraham Maslow back in the 1960s about Maslow’s “hierarchy of needs” and other related issues. Maslow ended up saying that Graves was right.

    Graves became well known as a “futurist” in the 1970s who attempted to predict how humanity would evolve toward higher states of consciousness, world peace, and so forth.
    (of course most bahais were not listening to the debate, or at least not carefully.)

    Some of Graves’ students went on to work with Nelson Mandela to organize the truth and reconcoliation process in post-apartheid south afria. Again, no bahais were present, or apparently aware of what happened, or why Graves theories about developmental “stages” (“Spiral Dynamics”) are important to peace work.

    Please note that the “Spiral Dynamics” (SD) model will look curiously similar to bahai “progressive revelation”. The “second tier” in SD is very similar to some general aspects of the bahai “new world order”.

    In the 90s, some of the Spiral Dynamics people got together with some Integralists, and started using hybrid terminology to discuss, in general terms, social/political transformation.

    Specifically, they are concerned with how postmodernism (pluralism, relativism, multiculturalism: the “green meme”), as a response to the “spiritual flatland” of modernism, has become “pathological”.

    One common example of “green meme” pathology is “political correctness”. Ken Wilber has dissected every aspect of the “green meme”, starting with his split from the transpersonal psychology movement (yoga/zen communes, ashrams, nature worship, etc.) back in the 80s/90s.

    Also note: Ken Wilber has been practicing deep Buddhism for decades. He is not very deferential to the mainstreams of the judeo-christian-islamic traditions. He believes that western religion is mostly a “middle man” scam that corrupted the “promise of transcendence” for political, economic and military purposes.

    Anyways, here is Ken Wilber’s “take” on the Iraq war:

    http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/misc/iraq.cfm


    As a Utopian point of departure in response to Tami’s question, I therefore suggested a few things about what a world governance system operating at yellow might look like. “Yellow” is the level of consciousness at which “second tier” or truly integral awareness begins to emerge. It is thus contrasted with the previous 6 levels or vMemes—which are called first tier, each of which believes that its value system is the only true, correct, or deeply worthwhile value system in existence. Those first-tier waves are, very briefly:

    beige: instinctual;

    purple: magical-animistic, tribal;

    red: egocentric, power, feudalistic;

    blue: mythic-membership, conformist, fundamentalist, ethnocentric, traditional;

    orange: excellence, achievement, progress, modern;

    green: postmodern, multicultural, sensitive, pluralistic.

    Those first-tier waves of development are followed by what Clare Graves called “the momentous leap of meaning” to second tier, which has, as of today, two major levels or waves of awareness:

    yellow: systemic, flexible, flowing;

    turquoise: cosmic unity, integrative, nested hierarchies of interrelationships, one-in-many holism.

    The point of the Utopian discussion was simply: what might a world be like whose center of gravity was second tier? In the following I will often use the terms “second tier,” “integral,” “yellow,” and “turquoise” interchangeably; the points I want to make are very general.

    The reason that Graves called second tier a “momentous leap” is that unlike all first-tier waves (which imagine their values are the only correct values), second tier has an understanding of the crucial if relative importance of all previous values—including red, blue, orange, and green. Orange thinks green is mindless; green despises orange; blue thinks both of them are going to burn in hell forever. Yellow, on the other hand, finds all of them necessary and acceptable, as long as none of them gets the upper hand and starts repressing the others. This, needless to say, would have a profound influence on any World Federation operating from yellow or second tier values (as we will see).

    There are two basic points to keep in mind about any future world governance system. The first is that laws, to be laws, are enacted from the highest average expectable level of development in the governance system. In today’s world, for example, most of the laws in Western democracies stem from the orange level, which is worldcentric, postconventional, and modern (or, as our French friends first expressed the orange meme 300 years ago: equality, fraternity, liberty). Many countries continue to operate basically at a blue level: conformist, non-democratic (dictatorial or totalitarian), grounded not in evidence but in dogma (Marxist, Muslim, or otherwise), and ethnocentric (believe the Book or burn). Some terrorist cells (not to mention street gangs) remain at red: hierarchies of raw power and physical strength, implemented often by torture, rape, or any means necessary to keep a particular warlord in power. Although structures such as red and blue might sound rather brutal, and often are, they have to be seen in context: they are usually the best that can be arranged under the given circumstances and conditions.

    So we are asking, what would a world governance system—a World Federation—look like if it operated from second tier, and implemented its basic laws from a yellow (or higher) center of gravity? But before we address that, there is the second basic item to keep in mind, namely: no matter how highly developed a society might be—including one whose center of gravity is yellow—nonetheless everybody in that (or any) society is still born at square one. Just because a society is “yellow” does not mean everybody in that society will be yellow; on the contrary, very few will be, at least at first, just as today in our “orange” societies, not everybody is at orange; in fact, at least half of the adult population pre-orange (purple, red, blue).

    [IMPORTANT -----> ]

    [***] It is simply that our laws stem mostly from orange. [***]

    That means that, even in an “integral society” (yellow or higher), there will still be pockets or subcultures of individuals at purple, red, blue, orange, and green. This is not only unavoidable, it is healthy, normal, desirable.

    [***] What is not desirable, however, is that any of those waves
    [***] dominate the governance system and therefore attempt to
    [***] force their values on others

    —whether those are red values, blue values, or green values. A yellow society, in short, would have laws that basically stem from that second-tier level of consciousness. And the basic defining characteristic of yellow is that it accepts all previous values without letting any of them repress or dominate others.

    A second-tier, integral, World Federation—in my Utopian view—would therefore prevent any first-tier memes from dominating, attacking, or exploiting any other populations. If necessary, a World Federation would do so by using force, just as all democracies today have an internal police force to curtail murder, rape, robbery, extortion, and so on. Somebody whose center of gravity is green will not commit murder, rape, or robbery. However, somebody whose center of gravity is red will do any or all of those, sometimes happily. And because everybody is born at square one, and must progress through purple, red, blue, and so on,

    [***] some sort of police will always be necessary to protect
    [***] others from those who do not evolve to a worldcentric
    [***] level of care and compassion.

    So any World Federation would have some sort of police force, of necessity. Call them the World Cops. Needless to say, the World Cops would be regulated by the World Federation, not by any country (and certainly not by America, Britain, France, Germany, etc.).

    This police force is

    [*] NOT allowed to tell people what level of consciousness they should be at; it is

    [*] NOT allowed to govern what individuals do in the privacy of their own homes or dwellings; it is

    [*] NOT allowed to coerce or intimidate people who are not at the average level of social development.

    It is, however, allowed to prevent (or punish) those whose public behavior stems from a less-than-worldcentric stance. For example, in the privacy of my own home, if I wish to think about burning at the stake all people who do not accept Jesus as their personal savior, that is my right. However, if I actually shoot you because you do not believe in Jesus, then the State—in this case, the World Federation—can arrest and incarcerate me.

    The simple rule, which is already implicitly used by all worldcentric governance systems (i.e., at orange or higher, including Germany, France, America, Britain, Japan, etc.), is this:

    in the Left-Hand domain [private thought], think what you like; but in the Right-Hand domain [public speech/action], physically behave according to worldcentric law or you can be removed from the public sphere.

    As we were saying, in Western democracies, the “law of the land” is largely orange; in the last 30 years, this has been supplemented with an increasing number of laws drawn from the green wave, including equality-in-the-workplace laws, healthcare freedom laws, and (anti)hate laws. Those mean, for example, that you are allowed to hate homosexuals (in the privacy of your own Left-Hand mind), but if you publicly (Right-Hand) express that hatred (e.g., through hate speech), there are penalties for doing so. Thus, in many Western democracies, free speech (a classic orange value, and, in this country, a First Amendment freedom) has often been supplemented with limitations on free speech (a classic green value: green wishes to limit speech not in accord with its values). My only point is that both of those express the implicit rule I stated in the previous paragraph.

    An Integral World Federation would therefore, in that regard, be no different: one could think whatever one wanted; but one must behave according to laws stemming from the center of gravity of the governance system, in this case, yellow. Thus, the values embedded in the “law of the land” would not be orange or green but yellow or integral; not first tier, but second tier. Accordingly, although individuals are again allowed to think or believe whatever they want (Left-Hand), their public behavior (Right-Hand) would be regulated according to yellow (or higher) standards. Because the major stance of yellow is integrative, this means all first-tier value systems would have a respected place, but no first-tier values would be allowed to colonize others.

    This would mean, for example, that America is allowed to despise Iraq (in the privacy of its own Left-Hand, national, cultural space). America is not, however, allowed to attack Iraq (in the Right-Hand, public, international commons).

    But that is only half the story of what would not be allowed by an Integral World Federation. Saddam Hussein, by conservative and uncontested estimates, has murdered approximately 200,000 Kurds and another 200,000 of his own people, often after torturing, raping, or gassing them. Any Integral World Federation would, through use of force if necessary, prevent both of those actions. Neither of those actions meet yellow standards and therefore neither would be allowed under yellow world law. America’s invasion of Iraq meets certain blue-to-orange standards; and the action of Saddam Hussein meets certain red standards. Neither of them would be allowed by an Integral World Federation.

    Moreover, it goes without saying that the World Federation would itself invade and police Iraq if incontrovertible evidence of mass homicide was presented at a World Federation hearing. Mass homicide anywhere violates worldcentric values. Saddam Hussein is allowed to hate the Kurds (in the privacy of his own red-meme mind); he is not allowed to gas 200,000 of them. If he did so, the World Federation police would use military action to prevent Saddam Hussein from continuing to do so, if he did not voluntarily cease and desist immediately.

    For the same reasons, I personally believe that any protest movement that does not equally protest both America’s invasion and Saddam’s murder of 400,000 people is a protest movement that does not truly represent peace or non-aggression or worldcentric values.

    I am aware of no major protest movement that has protested both forms of violence equally, and that has insisted upon an immediate end to both aggressions, and offered a believable way that both aggressions could actually be halted immediately so that neither side can continue its homicidal actions.

    That is, I am aware of no integral protest movement anywhere in the world, unfortunately.

    There are instead mainly pockets of blue, orange, and green values, all at each others’ throats. There is no mistaking Mr. Bush’s values: they are essentially blue-to-orange. It is the deeply fundamentalistic, absolutistic values of Bush that alarm many other governments (particularly those of France, Germany, and Russia), and understandably so. The blue wave typically divides the world into good vs. evil, and has an unshakable (if ethnocentric) sense of right and wrong. Bush’s “axis of evil” is classic blue. The worst that can be said of Bush’s essentially blue approach is that, indeed, it is deeply ethnocentric and imperialistic. The best that can be said is that it takes blue to curtail red, and Bush’s actions are serving the larger Spiral by rooting out pockets of red terrorism.

    The other major faction in the debate is essentially representing green-meme values. The green wave—what Clare Graves called “the sensitive self”—wishes to end all war, and thus must see itself as anti-war under virtually any circumstances. However, because it often takes war to end war (e.g., it takes WWII to end Auschwitz), green is often paralyzed in the face of real world aggression, insisting on lying down in front of Nazi tanks, as if that would actually stop them. But as long as green can see itself protesting aggression, it is relatively content. The worst that can be said of these protesters is that they are essentially “Saddam enablers” (in exactly the same way that Neville Chamberlain was a Hitler enabler). The best that can be said is that these individuals serve the larger Spiral by sensitizing more people to the horrors of aggression.

    One of the saddest of the non-integral effects of the present world leadership is the continuing turmoil caused by Western democracies imagining that they can drop an orange-meme democracy with green-meme sensitivity smack in the middle of a red-meme desert and somehow it will grow. This is not world policy; this is Jack and the Bean Stalk. Everybody is born at square one. Unless there is a healthy blue infrastructure—whether in inner city ghettos or Mid-East tribes—there is no place for red youth to go, and thus they end up trapped in warlord city. Forcing “democracy” on such a culture simply results, as it consistently has elsewhere, in the free election of military dictators. This, needless to say, is a complex topic; readers are again referred to A Theory of Everything for an overview, as well as to integralinstitute.org.)

    What has struck me the most in the highly emotional debates about the war in Iraq is how deeply the entire discussion is sunk in first-tier value fights. Both the blue-to-orange Bush supporters, and the orange-to-green media (and protesters) give wildly skewed, biased, and prejudiced accounts of the events. I am constantly taken aback by how brutally narrow a given perspective is, even (and sometimes especially) those claiming to be caring and inclusive and compassionate. There is plenty of truth on each side of the debate, just not the whole truth, which both sides vociferously claim to possess.

    I long for a discussion where integral openness can flourish. I long for a group of world leaders who can see a bigger picture, a bigger picture that really does allow all value systems to arise, but only worldcentric behavior to be tolerated. I long for this silly Utopian view of a World Federation, where “everybody is right” but only if some are more right than others (e.g., worldcentric is more right than ethnocentric; see excerpt B, “Three Principles Helpful for Any Integrative Approach” [posted on this site]). I long for the freedom and fullness of integral awareness shared by as many sentient beings as possible. I long for a time when an integral approach is not vehemently hated by green and blue alike. But, alas, I am doomed to long largely in isolation, it seems.

    Still, the world has to do what the world has to do. My own belief is that, in the coming century, we will see the present United Nations peacefully replaced by the first move toward a genuine World Federation, driven particularly by threats to the global commons that cannot be handled on a national level (such as terrorism, global monetary and economic policy, and environmental threats to the global commons).

    I believe that the first World Federation will likely be orange-to-green. My hope is that it will be healthy green, but who knows? I believe that any such green World Federation will make substantial strides toward world harmony, but it will eventually face the inherent limitations and contradictions of all first-tier perspectives. The equivalent of worldwide, politically-correct thought-police will surface—a green Inquisition, if you will—whose subtle brutalities, accompanied by a series of extremely unpleasant economic events brought about by green’s hobbling of orange business, will force a second-tier, yellow, World Federation to move haltingly into place. (Orange business cripples ecology; ecological green cripples orange business; both are forms of first-tier violence, neither of which is countenanced by yellow, and thus the first World Federation will likely be characterized, among numerous other forms of wholeness in practice, by a reconciliation between capitalism and ecology.) But that, I believe, will be at least a century or so away.

    Until that time, I harbor the pain of vision unrequited. Until that time, the loneliness of integral heavily weighs on any who yearn for wholeness in action. Until that time, the bright promise of a tomorrow that coheres is no consolation but source of torment, for those of you who are so cursed.

    Until that time—and given that today no government, no protest movement, and no national or international policy is yet integral—one is forced to ask: what can I personally do in the face of today’s dire circumstances? Here I can only repeat what I said in my earlier comment, and I do mean this with deep conviction:

    unfortunately, the world needs integral action. unfortunately, it will not get it, whether we go to war or not. still, better to light one candle than curse the darkness. so we work on ourselves and attempt to increase our own integral consciousness to some degree each day, so that in the end we leave the world just a little bit more whole than we found it………….

    kw

    14 april, 2003.

    —end excerpts—

    Sorry for the long post, I thought the material was worth posting. Hopefully the “mainstream” bahais will focus on discussing some real issues instead of insisting that only their viewpoint is correct.

    Regards,
    Eric P.
    (ex-bahai, after 30+ years)
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="53708"][quote comment="53703"]

    Julie wrote:

    I just read this from the address you sent – delivered in 2001 by Glenford Mitchell:

    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.”
    [/quote]

    Julie,

    I apologize if I offended you. But if you are not a “pussyfooter” as you say then I guess you can take. I do not tolerate platitudes from Baha’is any more after 36 years in this completely dysfunctional organization. Deeds not words.

    So answer this:

    Why is it that members of the Universal House of Justice can make personal political statements to audiences and individual rank and file Baha’is cannot?

    Would it ever occur to this man (or you either in your personal American comfort zone) that there are people who actually joined the Baha’i Faith BECAUSE of their horrible experiences as soldiers, sailors, airman, and marines in the Armed Forces of the United States? Would this reality even enter the head of this man who has lived his entire adult life in a sheltered bubble?

    [/quote]

  • ep

    Craig,

    Well said. We have previously disagreed on some aspects of the peace issue (I’m more libertarian, you are more liberal), but I completely respect your perspective, and the validity of the experience it comes from.

    WWII was as full of horrors as Vietnam, but once it was over the WWII guys were expected to gut it out, or kill themselves with alcohol. In any case, no one would propose that WWII, or the north in the Civil War, was wrong “just because” of the horrors of war.

    The problem we have now is that USA democracy is corrupt and run by oil companies and other corporations, including media corporations that manipulate public opinion on a “business as usual” basis. So, no one is going to trust them to elect a President who can pick the “right wars” to get into.

    In any case, a world police force is clearly needed. It is a tragic and ridiculous that one itsn’t in place yet, but predictable given the inability of national governments to act in an Integral manner.

    In my opinion, the cultures that are more “evolved” have to try to intervene in regional conflicts and stop tyrants and unjust regimes operating in pre-democratic modes. Very tricky, especially given the ugly legacy of cold war geopolitics and “american imperialism lite”.

    For instance, I’m a “Save Darfur” supporter. It is appalling to me that the USA and other “advanced” countries (and UN) have allowed the government there (and Chinese who are supporting the Sudanese government to get juicy oil deals) to engage in genocide with so little action frmo the world community for years and years.

    For purposes of the understanding following excerpts: Clare Graves was one the psychological theorists that argued with Abraham Maslow back in the 1960s about Maslow’s “hierarchy of needs” and other related issues. Maslow ended up saying that Graves was right.

    Graves became well known as a “futurist” in the 1970s who attempted to predict how humanity would evolve toward higher states of consciousness, world peace, and so forth.
    (of course most bahais were not listening to the debate, or at least not carefully.)

    Some of Graves’ students went on to work with Nelson Mandela to organize the truth and reconcoliation process in post-apartheid south afria. Again, no bahais were present, or apparently aware of what happened, or why Graves theories about developmental “stages” (“Spiral Dynamics”) are important to peace work.

    Please note that the “Spiral Dynamics” (SD) model will look curiously similar to bahai “progressive revelation”. The “second tier” in SD is very similar to some general aspects of the bahai “new world order”.

    In the 90s, some of the Spiral Dynamics people got together with some Integralists, and started using hybrid terminology to discuss, in general terms, social/political transformation.

    Specifically, they are concerned with how postmodernism (pluralism, relativism, multiculturalism: the “green meme”), as a response to the “spiritual flatland” of modernism, has become “pathological”.

    One common example of “green meme” pathology is “political correctness”. Ken Wilber has dissected every aspect of the “green meme”, starting with his split from the transpersonal psychology movement (yoga/zen communes, ashrams, nature worship, etc.) back in the 80s/90s.

    Also note: Ken Wilber has been practicing deep Buddhism for decades. He is not very deferential to the mainstreams of the judeo-christian-islamic traditions. He believes that western religion is mostly a “middle man” scam that corrupted the “promise of transcendence” for political, economic and military purposes.

    Anyways, here is Ken Wilber’s “take” on the Iraq war:

    http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/misc/iraq.cfm


    As a Utopian point of departure in response to Tami’s question, I therefore suggested a few things about what a world governance system operating at yellow might look like. “Yellow” is the level of consciousness at which “second tier” or truly integral awareness begins to emerge. It is thus contrasted with the previous 6 levels or vMemes—which are called first tier, each of which believes that its value system is the only true, correct, or deeply worthwhile value system in existence. Those first-tier waves are, very briefly:

    beige: instinctual;

    purple: magical-animistic, tribal;

    red: egocentric, power, feudalistic;

    blue: mythic-membership, conformist, fundamentalist, ethnocentric, traditional;

    orange: excellence, achievement, progress, modern;

    green: postmodern, multicultural, sensitive, pluralistic.

    Those first-tier waves of development are followed by what Clare Graves called “the momentous leap of meaning” to second tier, which has, as of today, two major levels or waves of awareness:

    yellow: systemic, flexible, flowing;

    turquoise: cosmic unity, integrative, nested hierarchies of interrelationships, one-in-many holism.

    The point of the Utopian discussion was simply: what might a world be like whose center of gravity was second tier? In the following I will often use the terms “second tier,” “integral,” “yellow,” and “turquoise” interchangeably; the points I want to make are very general.

    The reason that Graves called second tier a “momentous leap” is that unlike all first-tier waves (which imagine their values are the only correct values), second tier has an understanding of the crucial if relative importance of all previous values—including red, blue, orange, and green. Orange thinks green is mindless; green despises orange; blue thinks both of them are going to burn in hell forever. Yellow, on the other hand, finds all of them necessary and acceptable, as long as none of them gets the upper hand and starts repressing the others. This, needless to say, would have a profound influence on any World Federation operating from yellow or second tier values (as we will see).

    There are two basic points to keep in mind about any future world governance system. The first is that laws, to be laws, are enacted from the highest average expectable level of development in the governance system. In today’s world, for example, most of the laws in Western democracies stem from the orange level, which is worldcentric, postconventional, and modern (or, as our French friends first expressed the orange meme 300 years ago: equality, fraternity, liberty). Many countries continue to operate basically at a blue level: conformist, non-democratic (dictatorial or totalitarian), grounded not in evidence but in dogma (Marxist, Muslim, or otherwise), and ethnocentric (believe the Book or burn). Some terrorist cells (not to mention street gangs) remain at red: hierarchies of raw power and physical strength, implemented often by torture, rape, or any means necessary to keep a particular warlord in power. Although structures such as red and blue might sound rather brutal, and often are, they have to be seen in context: they are usually the best that can be arranged under the given circumstances and conditions.

    So we are asking, what would a world governance system—a World Federation—look like if it operated from second tier, and implemented its basic laws from a yellow (or higher) center of gravity? But before we address that, there is the second basic item to keep in mind, namely: no matter how highly developed a society might be—including one whose center of gravity is yellow—nonetheless everybody in that (or any) society is still born at square one. Just because a society is “yellow” does not mean everybody in that society will be yellow; on the contrary, very few will be, at least at first, just as today in our “orange” societies, not everybody is at orange; in fact, at least half of the adult population pre-orange (purple, red, blue).

    [IMPORTANT -----> ]

    [***] It is simply that our laws stem mostly from orange. [***]

    That means that, even in an “integral society” (yellow or higher), there will still be pockets or subcultures of individuals at purple, red, blue, orange, and green. This is not only unavoidable, it is healthy, normal, desirable.

    [***] What is not desirable, however, is that any of those waves
    [***] dominate the governance system and therefore attempt to
    [***] force their values on others

    —whether those are red values, blue values, or green values. A yellow society, in short, would have laws that basically stem from that second-tier level of consciousness. And the basic defining characteristic of yellow is that it accepts all previous values without letting any of them repress or dominate others.

    A second-tier, integral, World Federation—in my Utopian view—would therefore prevent any first-tier memes from dominating, attacking, or exploiting any other populations. If necessary, a World Federation would do so by using force, just as all democracies today have an internal police force to curtail murder, rape, robbery, extortion, and so on. Somebody whose center of gravity is green will not commit murder, rape, or robbery. However, somebody whose center of gravity is red will do any or all of those, sometimes happily. And because everybody is born at square one, and must progress through purple, red, blue, and so on,

    [***] some sort of police will always be necessary to protect
    [***] others from those who do not evolve to a worldcentric
    [***] level of care and compassion.

    So any World Federation would have some sort of police force, of necessity. Call them the World Cops. Needless to say, the World Cops would be regulated by the World Federation, not by any country (and certainly not by America, Britain, France, Germany, etc.).

    This police force is

    [*] NOT allowed to tell people what level of consciousness they should be at; it is

    [*] NOT allowed to govern what individuals do in the privacy of their own homes or dwellings; it is

    [*] NOT allowed to coerce or intimidate people who are not at the average level of social development.

    It is, however, allowed to prevent (or punish) those whose public behavior stems from a less-than-worldcentric stance. For example, in the privacy of my own home, if I wish to think about burning at the stake all people who do not accept Jesus as their personal savior, that is my right. However, if I actually shoot you because you do not believe in Jesus, then the State—in this case, the World Federation—can arrest and incarcerate me.

    The simple rule, which is already implicitly used by all worldcentric governance systems (i.e., at orange or higher, including Germany, France, America, Britain, Japan, etc.), is this:

    in the Left-Hand domain [private thought], think what you like; but in the Right-Hand domain [public speech/action], physically behave according to worldcentric law or you can be removed from the public sphere.

    As we were saying, in Western democracies, the “law of the land” is largely orange; in the last 30 years, this has been supplemented with an increasing number of laws drawn from the green wave, including equality-in-the-workplace laws, healthcare freedom laws, and (anti)hate laws. Those mean, for example, that you are allowed to hate homosexuals (in the privacy of your own Left-Hand mind), but if you publicly (Right-Hand) express that hatred (e.g., through hate speech), there are penalties for doing so. Thus, in many Western democracies, free speech (a classic orange value, and, in this country, a First Amendment freedom) has often been supplemented with limitations on free speech (a classic green value: green wishes to limit speech not in accord with its values). My only point is that both of those express the implicit rule I stated in the previous paragraph.

    An Integral World Federation would therefore, in that regard, be no different: one could think whatever one wanted; but one must behave according to laws stemming from the center of gravity of the governance system, in this case, yellow. Thus, the values embedded in the “law of the land” would not be orange or green but yellow or integral; not first tier, but second tier. Accordingly, although individuals are again allowed to think or believe whatever they want (Left-Hand), their public behavior (Right-Hand) would be regulated according to yellow (or higher) standards. Because the major stance of yellow is integrative, this means all first-tier value systems would have a respected place, but no first-tier values would be allowed to colonize others.

    This would mean, for example, that America is allowed to despise Iraq (in the privacy of its own Left-Hand, national, cultural space). America is not, however, allowed to attack Iraq (in the Right-Hand, public, international commons).

    But that is only half the story of what would not be allowed by an Integral World Federation. Saddam Hussein, by conservative and uncontested estimates, has murdered approximately 200,000 Kurds and another 200,000 of his own people, often after torturing, raping, or gassing them. Any Integral World Federation would, through use of force if necessary, prevent both of those actions. Neither of those actions meet yellow standards and therefore neither would be allowed under yellow world law. America’s invasion of Iraq meets certain blue-to-orange standards; and the action of Saddam Hussein meets certain red standards. Neither of them would be allowed by an Integral World Federation.

    Moreover, it goes without saying that the World Federation would itself invade and police Iraq if incontrovertible evidence of mass homicide was presented at a World Federation hearing. Mass homicide anywhere violates worldcentric values. Saddam Hussein is allowed to hate the Kurds (in the privacy of his own red-meme mind); he is not allowed to gas 200,000 of them. If he did so, the World Federation police would use military action to prevent Saddam Hussein from continuing to do so, if he did not voluntarily cease and desist immediately.

    For the same reasons, I personally believe that any protest movement that does not equally protest both America’s invasion and Saddam’s murder of 400,000 people is a protest movement that does not truly represent peace or non-aggression or worldcentric values.

    I am aware of no major protest movement that has protested both forms of violence equally, and that has insisted upon an immediate end to both aggressions, and offered a believable way that both aggressions could actually be halted immediately so that neither side can continue its homicidal actions.

    That is, I am aware of no integral protest movement anywhere in the world, unfortunately.

    There are instead mainly pockets of blue, orange, and green values, all at each others’ throats. There is no mistaking Mr. Bush’s values: they are essentially blue-to-orange. It is the deeply fundamentalistic, absolutistic values of Bush that alarm many other governments (particularly those of France, Germany, and Russia), and understandably so. The blue wave typically divides the world into good vs. evil, and has an unshakable (if ethnocentric) sense of right and wrong. Bush’s “axis of evil” is classic blue. The worst that can be said of Bush’s essentially blue approach is that, indeed, it is deeply ethnocentric and imperialistic. The best that can be said is that it takes blue to curtail red, and Bush’s actions are serving the larger Spiral by rooting out pockets of red terrorism.

    The other major faction in the debate is essentially representing green-meme values. The green wave—what Clare Graves called “the sensitive self”—wishes to end all war, and thus must see itself as anti-war under virtually any circumstances. However, because it often takes war to end war (e.g., it takes WWII to end Auschwitz), green is often paralyzed in the face of real world aggression, insisting on lying down in front of Nazi tanks, as if that would actually stop them. But as long as green can see itself protesting aggression, it is relatively content. The worst that can be said of these protesters is that they are essentially “Saddam enablers” (in exactly the same way that Neville Chamberlain was a Hitler enabler). The best that can be said is that these individuals serve the larger Spiral by sensitizing more people to the horrors of aggression.

    One of the saddest of the non-integral effects of the present world leadership is the continuing turmoil caused by Western democracies imagining that they can drop an orange-meme democracy with green-meme sensitivity smack in the middle of a red-meme desert and somehow it will grow. This is not world policy; this is Jack and the Bean Stalk. Everybody is born at square one. Unless there is a healthy blue infrastructure—whether in inner city ghettos or Mid-East tribes—there is no place for red youth to go, and thus they end up trapped in warlord city. Forcing “democracy” on such a culture simply results, as it consistently has elsewhere, in the free election of military dictators. This, needless to say, is a complex topic; readers are again referred to A Theory of Everything for an overview, as well as to integralinstitute.org.)

    What has struck me the most in the highly emotional debates about the war in Iraq is how deeply the entire discussion is sunk in first-tier value fights. Both the blue-to-orange Bush supporters, and the orange-to-green media (and protesters) give wildly skewed, biased, and prejudiced accounts of the events. I am constantly taken aback by how brutally narrow a given perspective is, even (and sometimes especially) those claiming to be caring and inclusive and compassionate. There is plenty of truth on each side of the debate, just not the whole truth, which both sides vociferously claim to possess.

    I long for a discussion where integral openness can flourish. I long for a group of world leaders who can see a bigger picture, a bigger picture that really does allow all value systems to arise, but only worldcentric behavior to be tolerated. I long for this silly Utopian view of a World Federation, where “everybody is right” but only if some are more right than others (e.g., worldcentric is more right than ethnocentric; see excerpt B, “Three Principles Helpful for Any Integrative Approach” [posted on this site]). I long for the freedom and fullness of integral awareness shared by as many sentient beings as possible. I long for a time when an integral approach is not vehemently hated by green and blue alike. But, alas, I am doomed to long largely in isolation, it seems.

    Still, the world has to do what the world has to do. My own belief is that, in the coming century, we will see the present United Nations peacefully replaced by the first move toward a genuine World Federation, driven particularly by threats to the global commons that cannot be handled on a national level (such as terrorism, global monetary and economic policy, and environmental threats to the global commons).

    I believe that the first World Federation will likely be orange-to-green. My hope is that it will be healthy green, but who knows? I believe that any such green World Federation will make substantial strides toward world harmony, but it will eventually face the inherent limitations and contradictions of all first-tier perspectives. The equivalent of worldwide, politically-correct thought-police will surface—a green Inquisition, if you will—whose subtle brutalities, accompanied by a series of extremely unpleasant economic events brought about by green’s hobbling of orange business, will force a second-tier, yellow, World Federation to move haltingly into place. (Orange business cripples ecology; ecological green cripples orange business; both are forms of first-tier violence, neither of which is countenanced by yellow, and thus the first World Federation will likely be characterized, among numerous other forms of wholeness in practice, by a reconciliation between capitalism and ecology.) But that, I believe, will be at least a century or so away.

    Until that time, I harbor the pain of vision unrequited. Until that time, the loneliness of integral heavily weighs on any who yearn for wholeness in action. Until that time, the bright promise of a tomorrow that coheres is no consolation but source of torment, for those of you who are so cursed.

    Until that time—and given that today no government, no protest movement, and no national or international policy is yet integral—one is forced to ask: what can I personally do in the face of today’s dire circumstances? Here I can only repeat what I said in my earlier comment, and I do mean this with deep conviction:

    unfortunately, the world needs integral action. unfortunately, it will not get it, whether we go to war or not. still, better to light one candle than curse the darkness. so we work on ourselves and attempt to increase our own integral consciousness to some degree each day, so that in the end we leave the world just a little bit more whole than we found it………….

    kw

    14 april, 2003.

    —end excerpts—

    Sorry for the long post, I thought the material was worth posting. Hopefully the “mainstream” bahais will focus on discussing some real issues instead of insisting that only their viewpoint is correct.

    Regards,
    Eric P.
    (ex-bahai, after 30+ years)
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="53708"][quote comment="53703"]

    Julie wrote:

    I just read this from the address you sent – delivered in 2001 by Glenford Mitchell:

    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.”
    [/quote]

    Julie,

    I apologize if I offended you. But if you are not a “pussyfooter” as you say then I guess you can take. I do not tolerate platitudes from Baha’is any more after 36 years in this completely dysfunctional organization. Deeds not words.

    So answer this:

    Why is it that members of the Universal House of Justice can make personal political statements to audiences and individual rank and file Baha’is cannot?

    Would it ever occur to this man (or you either in your personal American comfort zone) that there are people who actually joined the Baha’i Faith BECAUSE of their horrible experiences as soldiers, sailors, airman, and marines in the Armed Forces of the United States? Would this reality even enter the head of this man who has lived his entire adult life in a sheltered bubble?

    [/quote]

  • Anonymouz

    way to copy and paste EP…Maybe I should bring some of my papers and talk about how some humans are descended from homo floresiensis…

  • Anonymouz

    way to copy and paste EP…Maybe I should bring some of my papers and talk about how some humans are descended from homo floresiensis…

  • ep

    AnonZZZ,

    I see more evidence that “some humans” have descended from Pavlov’s dog (specifically those that are trained to instantly drool, get an erection, rub butt across freshly cleaned carpet, dry hump someone’s leg, and post snide condescension at any faint sniff of criticism about bahai) than from hobbits, but suit youself.

    Boner tarde and Adios, muchachito

    [quote comment=""]way to copy and paste EP…Maybe I should bring some of my papers and talk about how some humans are descended from homo floresiensis…[/quote]

  • ep

    AnonZZZ,

    I see more evidence that “some humans” have descended from Pavlov’s dog (specifically those that are trained to instantly drool, get an erection, rub butt across freshly cleaned carpet, dry hump someone’s leg, and post snide condescension at any faint sniff of criticism about bahai) than from hobbits, but suit youself.

    Boner tarde and Adios, muchachito

    [quote comment=""]way to copy and paste EP…Maybe I should bring some of my papers and talk about how some humans are descended from homo floresiensis…[/quote]

  • ep

    Julie,

    I’ve seen bahais literally throw themselves at the feet of “important” bahais and blubber like fools. In public. One NSA member had to clean saliva off her shoes after such an encounter.

    But, yes, Glenford Mitchell has no infallability. But no one else does either, including the UHJ or Pope (IMO).

    Mitchell has a reputation of being a loose cannon and egomaniac going way back to when he took over the US NSA as “secretariat”. He was told to cut out the crap and develop some humility when he was frst elected to the House and arrived at Haifa, or leave the UHJ.

    [quote comment="53700"]Glenford Mitchell is a human being who happened to be elected by the Baha’is of the world and served on the UHJ for many years.

    I did not hear his talk, but will look for the whole context.

    Anyhow, he has never been infallible.

    I’ve heard other UHJ members speak about this – that as individuals they are not infallible…just human beings like us.

    It’s the Institution (all nine members consulting together)that is the Center of the Covenant now.

    No individual has that kind of authority in the Baha’i Faith.

    To put individuals on pedestals like that is a distortion of good judgment.
    To judge a religion based on a few words or behavior of some members is likewise ludicrous.

    I love being a Baha’i.

    Best wishes to you all.
    Julie
    [/quote]
    [quote comment=""]AnonZZZ,

    I see more evidence that “some humans” have descended from Pavlov’s dog (specifically those that are trained to instantly drool, get an erection, rub butt across freshly cleaned carpet, dry hump someone’s leg, and post snide condescension at any faint sniff of criticism about bahai) than from hobbits, but suit youself.

    Boner tarde and Adios, muchachito

    [quote comment=""]way to copy and paste EP…Maybe I should bring some of my papers and talk about how some humans are descended from homo floresiensis…[/quote][/quote]

  • ep

    Julie,

    I’ve seen bahais literally throw themselves at the feet of “important” bahais and blubber like fools. In public. One NSA member had to clean saliva off her shoes after such an encounter.

    But, yes, Glenford Mitchell has no infallability. But no one else does either, including the UHJ or Pope (IMO).

    Mitchell has a reputation of being a loose cannon and egomaniac going way back to when he took over the US NSA as “secretariat”. He was told to cut out the crap and develop some humility when he was frst elected to the House and arrived at Haifa, or leave the UHJ.

    [quote comment="53700"]Glenford Mitchell is a human being who happened to be elected by the Baha’is of the world and served on the UHJ for many years.

    I did not hear his talk, but will look for the whole context.

    Anyhow, he has never been infallible.

    I’ve heard other UHJ members speak about this – that as individuals they are not infallible…just human beings like us.

    It’s the Institution (all nine members consulting together)that is the Center of the Covenant now.

    No individual has that kind of authority in the Baha’i Faith.

    To put individuals on pedestals like that is a distortion of good judgment.
    To judge a religion based on a few words or behavior of some members is likewise ludicrous.

    I love being a Baha’i.

    Best wishes to you all.
    Julie
    [/quote]
    [quote comment=""]AnonZZZ,

    I see more evidence that “some humans” have descended from Pavlov’s dog (specifically those that are trained to instantly drool, get an erection, rub butt across freshly cleaned carpet, dry hump someone’s leg, and post snide condescension at any faint sniff of criticism about bahai) than from hobbits, but suit youself.

    Boner tarde and Adios, muchachito

    [quote comment=""]way to copy and paste EP…Maybe I should bring some of my papers and talk about how some humans are descended from homo floresiensis…[/quote][/quote]

  • Annonymouz

    EP,

    come on lets just get out with it. You are an atheist.

  • Annonymouz

    EP,

    come on lets just get out with it. You are an atheist.

  • Grover

    EP wrote:

    [quote post="507"]Mitchell has a reputation of being a loose cannon and egomaniac going way back to when he took over the US NSA as �secretariat�. He was told to cut out the crap and develop some humility when he was frst elected to the House and arrived at Haifa, or leave the UHJ.[/quote]

    Got any evidence for that? Don’t get me wrong, I thought Glenford Mitchell was wrong to say what he did, but if he was told to tone it down, I’d love to see the evidence, even if it is anecdotal.

  • Grover

    EP wrote:

    [quote post="507"]Mitchell has a reputation of being a loose cannon and egomaniac going way back to when he took over the US NSA as �secretariat�. He was told to cut out the crap and develop some humility when he was frst elected to the House and arrived at Haifa, or leave the UHJ.[/quote]

    Got any evidence for that? Don’t get me wrong, I thought Glenford Mitchell was wrong to say what he did, but if he was told to tone it down, I’d love to see the evidence, even if it is anecdotal.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="53713"]

    EP wrote:

    WWII was as full of horrors as Vietnam, but once it was over the WWII guys were expected to gut it out, or kill themselves with alcohol. In any case, no one would propose that WWII, or the north in the Civil War, was wrong “just because” of the horrors of war.
    [/quote]

    EP,

    I appreciate your long post. The tragedy is that the Baha’i Faith itself in it’s great potential could have been the most advanced proponent of grass roots Integralist thinking in the world. As you have stated before, you actually learned of the existence of this system of thought and analysis from fellow Baha’is!

    That wonderful opportunity is not going to happen now as the Faith is dumbed down into a tragic kind of muddled codified spiritual communism. An organization cannot be successful when everyone in it’s IQ is falling by the minute.

    Anyone who can think independently in the Baha’i Faith now is deemed the victim of “self” and “ego” and is the “enemy of the Party”…oops…I mean the “enemy of God”.

    So other communities of insight will run with these ideas and steal the Integralist meme analysis thunder of one of the best systems of planetary analysis yet developed in the unleashed energies of the New World Age.

    I myself do not feel that the concept of World Ages is regressive metaphysical thought at all. Quite to the contrary, it appears to be the most ancient system of Cosmic thinking yet developed by the human race. Again, I suggest to everyone here to read the book “Hamlets Mill” sometime in one’s lifetime.

    Hamlet’s Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge And Its Transmission Through Myth
    by Giorgio De Santillana and Hertha Von Dechend
    http://phoenixandturtle.net/excerptmill/santillana.htm

    It is a very hard read. It is not for the fainthearted. But if 10% of it’s insights are valid, it changes the paradigm.

    I also recommend this system of Cosmic insight also:

    The Temple of Man
    by R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz
    http://www.robertschoch.net/The%20Temple%20of%20Man.htm

    I believe all advanced thinkers of the future will be very familiar with these two above books as well as the Integralist system of analysis that you have discussed here.

    That is if all advanced thinkers of the future have not been sent to the “re-education camps” and have their testicles wired up to electrodes by the future Baha’i system of unchallenged, completely passive, top down hyper group think. That brain chemistry, history has repeatedly shows us, is ALWAYS with us.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80lLU5-yji8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21xGjMIs2wc

    There have to be ABSOLUTELY FIERCE checks and balances in any system or it will go completely insane. The Internet and the thoughtful vote in EVERY kind and TYPE of organization on Earth may yet be the remedy and the true safety of the world. True unity is the voluntary unity of free peoples, not unity by coercion and tyranny in any form.

    My answer to the excellent discussions on this below link is that we are to study how the Cosmos works through keen individual observation and skilled scientific systems of insight. OUR TEACHERS ARE ATOMS IN THIS WORLD AGE. The Sufi traditions teach this and Baha’u’llah approved them! I say that Ken Wilber, in his own way has followed this very same system of insight. Spiral dynamics is right out of the systems revealed in nature.

    http://www.templeton.org/belief/

    While anyone is at it, I just love this guy’s insights on the wonders of the Dirac Sea:

    http://openseti.org/Docs/HotsonPart1.pdf
    http://openseti.org/Docs/HotsonPart2.pdf

    As to the use of military force, you have always somehow confused me with the street level anti-war movement of the 1960′s that you somehow did not like very much. I came from a different direction. I came from the system of perception of people that had actually served in the military. I am not a pacifist. I understand that the use of force is sometimes necessary in human affairs. But the use of force requires the highest thought and regard because the consequences are so great. It must be done with great skill. Both Vietnam and Iraq were based on lies. Millions perished in horrible deaths and catastrophic physical and psychological wounds.

    But I certainly would have personally used force to protect the 400 Afghans that my sister and brother-in-law employed across 16 provinces in Afghanistan to get medical help to 9 million human souls. As it turned out it went quite well and they did not lose a single person (although there were some very close calls) because my brother-in-law skillfully employed assets from what was left of the Northern Alliance. Skillful use of intelligence assets on the ground are much better than mere firepower. But somehow they just don’t seem to teach that at our Military Academies anymore. Never, ever commit military force without rock solid intelligence as to what they will encounter. This was never done in Iraq by these incredibly arrogant men. So it goes.

    Oh BTW, from our past exchanges, when I use the term “archetype” it seems to upset your disdain for neo-Platonic thinking. Although I myself like the neo-Platonic system of thought (of which the Baha’i Faith is probably the greatest modern revival), when I use the term “archetype” I am speaking in the C.G. Jung use of the term. I am talking psychological/spiritual archetypes in the human psyche in my analysis of something. I have to think this way regarding film work. All film in my system of thought is parables on psychological/spiritual archetypes. For instance, you can clearly pick out on this site the high born sons of Eaton who would die in the first 15 minutes of a war movie on the Western front in 1916. That is film 101, and, mysteriously, that seems to be exactly how the real world actually works. What goes around, comes around.

    But today I’m working from home, and maybe I’ll just get my guitar out for some relief from this dreary world. Thank God I met Kurt Vonnegut back in 1983.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLw7nozO_U

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="53713"]

    EP wrote:

    WWII was as full of horrors as Vietnam, but once it was over the WWII guys were expected to gut it out, or kill themselves with alcohol. In any case, no one would propose that WWII, or the north in the Civil War, was wrong “just because” of the horrors of war.
    [/quote]

    EP,

    I appreciate your long post. The tragedy is that the Baha’i Faith itself in it’s great potential could have been the most advanced proponent of grass roots Integralist thinking in the world. As you have stated before, you actually learned of the existence of this system of thought and analysis from fellow Baha’is!

    That wonderful opportunity is not going to happen now as the Faith is dumbed down into a tragic kind of muddled codified spiritual communism. An organization cannot be successful when everyone in it’s IQ is falling by the minute.

    Anyone who can think independently in the Baha’i Faith now is deemed the victim of “self” and “ego” and is the “enemy of the Party”…oops…I mean the “enemy of God”.

    So other communities of insight will run with these ideas and steal the Integralist meme analysis thunder of one of the best systems of planetary analysis yet developed in the unleashed energies of the New World Age.

    I myself do not feel that the concept of World Ages is regressive metaphysical thought at all. Quite to the contrary, it appears to be the most ancient system of Cosmic thinking yet developed by the human race. Again, I suggest to everyone here to read the book “Hamlets Mill” sometime in one’s lifetime.

    Hamlet’s Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge And Its Transmission Through Myth
    by Giorgio De Santillana and Hertha Von Dechend
    http://phoenixandturtle.net/excerptmill/santillana.htm

    It is a very hard read. It is not for the fainthearted. But if 10% of it’s insights are valid, it changes the paradigm.

    I also recommend this system of Cosmic insight also:

    The Temple of Man
    by R. A. Schwaller de Lubicz
    http://www.robertschoch.net/The%20Temple%20of%20Man.htm

    I believe all advanced thinkers of the future will be very familiar with these two above books as well as the Integralist system of analysis that you have discussed here.

    That is if all advanced thinkers of the future have not been sent to the “re-education camps” and have their testicles wired up to electrodes by the future Baha’i system of unchallenged, completely passive, top down hyper group think. That brain chemistry, history has repeatedly shows us, is ALWAYS with us.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80lLU5-yji8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21xGjMIs2wc

    There have to be ABSOLUTELY FIERCE checks and balances in any system or it will go completely insane. The Internet and the thoughtful vote in EVERY kind and TYPE of organization on Earth may yet be the remedy and the true safety of the world. True unity is the voluntary unity of free peoples, not unity by coercion and tyranny in any form.

    My answer to the excellent discussions on this below link is that we are to study how the Cosmos works through keen individual observation and skilled scientific systems of insight. OUR TEACHERS ARE ATOMS IN THIS WORLD AGE. The Sufi traditions teach this and Baha’u’llah approved them! I say that Ken Wilber, in his own way has followed this very same system of insight. Spiral dynamics is right out of the systems revealed in nature.

    http://www.templeton.org/belief/

    While anyone is at it, I just love this guy’s insights on the wonders of the Dirac Sea:

    http://openseti.org/Docs/HotsonPart1.pdf
    http://openseti.org/Docs/HotsonPart2.pdf

    As to the use of military force, you have always somehow confused me with the street level anti-war movement of the 1960′s that you somehow did not like very much. I came from a different direction. I came from the system of perception of people that had actually served in the military. I am not a pacifist. I understand that the use of force is sometimes necessary in human affairs. But the use of force requires the highest thought and regard because the consequences are so great. It must be done with great skill. Both Vietnam and Iraq were based on lies. Millions perished in horrible deaths and catastrophic physical and psychological wounds.

    But I certainly would have personally used force to protect the 400 Afghans that my sister and brother-in-law employed across 16 provinces in Afghanistan to get medical help to 9 million human souls. As it turned out it went quite well and they did not lose a single person (although there were some very close calls) because my brother-in-law skillfully employed assets from what was left of the Northern Alliance. Skillful use of intelligence assets on the ground are much better than mere firepower. But somehow they just don’t seem to teach that at our Military Academies anymore. Never, ever commit military force without rock solid intelligence as to what they will encounter. This was never done in Iraq by these incredibly arrogant men. So it goes.

    Oh BTW, from our past exchanges, when I use the term “archetype” it seems to upset your disdain for neo-Platonic thinking. Although I myself like the neo-Platonic system of thought (of which the Baha’i Faith is probably the greatest modern revival), when I use the term “archetype” I am speaking in the C.G. Jung use of the term. I am talking psychological/spiritual archetypes in the human psyche in my analysis of something. I have to think this way regarding film work. All film in my system of thought is parables on psychological/spiritual archetypes. For instance, you can clearly pick out on this site the high born sons of Eaton who would die in the first 15 minutes of a war movie on the Western front in 1916. That is film 101, and, mysteriously, that seems to be exactly how the real world actually works. What goes around, comes around.

    But today I’m working from home, and maybe I’ll just get my guitar out for some relief from this dreary world. Thank God I met Kurt Vonnegut back in 1983.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLw7nozO_U

  • Anonnymouz

    Hey craig,

    I agree with you!

    Intelligence is key. I would argue too that warefare between nation states has changed in the conventional sense. Even the recent Israel/Lebanon tirade was based on a conventional army going against a guerrilla force…Didn’t work too well. Intel and special ops are in my opinion the strongest factors in winning a war. Peacekeepers are good as a follow up but they need more power and teeth, more integrated and versatile. Instead of countries donating brigades or companies, there should be a standing international force free of any national agenda and answerable only to a strong UN, neutral and interested in stability. Of course we are a long way off but just my two cents…

  • Anonnymouz

    Hey craig,

    I agree with you!

    Intelligence is key. I would argue too that warefare between nation states has changed in the conventional sense. Even the recent Israel/Lebanon tirade was based on a conventional army going against a guerrilla force…Didn’t work too well. Intel and special ops are in my opinion the strongest factors in winning a war. Peacekeepers are good as a follow up but they need more power and teeth, more integrated and versatile. Instead of countries donating brigades or companies, there should be a standing international force free of any national agenda and answerable only to a strong UN, neutral and interested in stability. Of course we are a long way off but just my two cents…

  • ep

    re: “You are an atheist.”

    LOL! Thanks for the compliment, but “not exactly”.

    Actually I would say I’m mostly Buddhist. I partly grew up in Japan, went to Buddhist temples, liked the raked sand, but have never shaved my head (or other odd body parts), or gone to any naked zen pool parties with Ken Wilber.

    My mother’s family (small farmers) is from a Mennonite area of Kansas, and I spent summers there as a kid when in the USA. My older brother trained in the Dali Lama’s order back in the late 60s/70s. He is a republican and worked in the trucking/logging business for a long time.

    btw, I was coerced into signing a bahai declaration card by a fanatic “bahai teacher”, so technically I was never a “real” bahai. I’m sure you are relieved, although if you contact the NSA or Auxiliary Bored (or have already), they will tell you that I’m still an “official” bahai since the NSA refused to accept my resignation until I admit that I’m somehow too spiritually inadequate to want to continue being a bahai.

    So, “eclectic” would probably be more accurate than “atheist”, or maybe occasionally proctological or anesthesiological.

    My “Beliefs”
    ————

    Evolution is at least as important as metaphysics, but Integralists would disagree that one “quadrant” of human consciousness should be “dominant” over others.

    I would defend spirituality (trancendence) to strict materialists like Watson/Crick that have never taken the time to explore the fascinating world of the spiritual traditions. I think a good start is Joseph Campbell’s work, or Houston Smith, and similar people that have struggled with the issue of universal archetypes and specific traditions.

    Integralism came out of Sri Aurobindo’s work, Jean Gebser’s work, etc.

    I suppose someone may eventually propose that Sri and Jean amd other integral pioneers were “influenced” by bahai, but I think finding any significant “evidence” will be really hard. Ken Wilber was rumored to have been an “intimate” friend of a female bahai, maybe in the late 80s or early/mid 90s, so again, there may be some minor influences.

    The whole point of integralism is to find what bahais call the “harmony” of science and spirituality, an area in which bahais have, surprising, made few real leading-edge contributions, are are barely holding their heads above water (an exception: recent ABS work on neuroscience is great, probably mainly thanks to Safa Sadeghpour of MIT/Harvard). http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/45B/6B1

    (Briefly, the problem is bahais are so concerned with polemics and apologetics that they have not properly attended to recent developments in consciousness studies.)

    You may wish to review Mark Turner’s and George Lakoff’s work on lingustics and cognition for one concrete form of integral scholarship (not in Ken Wilber’s approach).

    http://markturner.org/cdss.html

    excerpt:
    “In this provocative and beautifully written book, Mark Turner describes conceptual integration, a.k.a. blending, as the basic mental operation that distinguishes cognitively modern humans from all other animals. He proposes a unification of the social sciences based on conceptual integration, showing that it is an essential part of either what we (interpretive) social scientists study or how we (qualitative) social scientists study what we study. The book is brimming with intriguing examples of conceptual blends from an incredible variety of domains. This is possible, of course, because conceptual integration is an absolutely ubiquitous form of cognition. ”

    Integral Science can deconstruct the cognitive basis of metaphysics and spirituality (which tells us a lot and overturns superstition, silly metaphysics, etc.), but that is NOT the same as individual people engaging in a transformative/healing practice, such as prayer/meditation, to reach “higher levels” of consciousness.

    In general, transformational practices are embedded in specific spiritual/cultural traditions, although the book about Esalen and “America’s religion of no religion” is an interesting example of “flexidoxy” (flexible orthodoxy) – which seems to be the “emergent” future of religion in postmodern/integral culture.

    http://www.amazon.com/Esalen-America-Religion-No/dp/0226453693

    Zaadz (now gaia.com?) is an example of an attempt at integral business.

    http://mashable.com/2007/03/29/zaadz/

    In on sense, the future is all about “spiritual capitalism”, which I predict will increase the tendency toward a american (and global) “religion of no religion”.

    On geopolitics/war, are you a “Stratfor.com” fan?

    adios muchachito,
    ep

    [quote comment="53720"]
    EP,

    come on lets just get out with it. You are an atheist.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Hey craig,

    I agree with you!

    Intelligence is key.
    …[/quote]

  • ep

    re: “You are an atheist.”

    LOL! Thanks for the compliment, but “not exactly”.

    Actually I would say I’m mostly Buddhist. I partly grew up in Japan, went to Buddhist temples, liked the raked sand, but have never shaved my head (or other odd body parts), or gone to any naked zen pool parties with Ken Wilber.

    My mother’s family (small farmers) is from a Mennonite area of Kansas, and I spent summers there as a kid when in the USA. My older brother trained in the Dali Lama’s order back in the late 60s/70s. He is a republican and worked in the trucking/logging business for a long time.

    btw, I was coerced into signing a bahai declaration card by a fanatic “bahai teacher”, so technically I was never a “real” bahai. I’m sure you are relieved, although if you contact the NSA or Auxiliary Bored (or have already), they will tell you that I’m still an “official” bahai since the NSA refused to accept my resignation until I admit that I’m somehow too spiritually inadequate to want to continue being a bahai.

    So, “eclectic” would probably be more accurate than “atheist”, or maybe occasionally proctological or anesthesiological.

    My “Beliefs”
    ————

    Evolution is at least as important as metaphysics, but Integralists would disagree that one “quadrant” of human consciousness should be “dominant” over others.

    I would defend spirituality (trancendence) to strict materialists like Watson/Crick that have never taken the time to explore the fascinating world of the spiritual traditions. I think a good start is Joseph Campbell’s work, or Houston Smith, and similar people that have struggled with the issue of universal archetypes and specific traditions.

    Integralism came out of Sri Aurobindo’s work, Jean Gebser’s work, etc.

    I suppose someone may eventually propose that Sri and Jean amd other integral pioneers were “influenced” by bahai, but I think finding any significant “evidence” will be really hard. Ken Wilber was rumored to have been an “intimate” friend of a female bahai, maybe in the late 80s or early/mid 90s, so again, there may be some minor influences.

    The whole point of integralism is to find what bahais call the “harmony” of science and spirituality, an area in which bahais have, surprising, made few real leading-edge contributions, are are barely holding their heads above water (an exception: recent ABS work on neuroscience is great, probably mainly thanks to Safa Sadeghpour of MIT/Harvard). http://www.linkedin.com/pub/0/45B/6B1

    (Briefly, the problem is bahais are so concerned with polemics and apologetics that they have not properly attended to recent developments in consciousness studies.)

    You may wish to review Mark Turner’s and George Lakoff’s work on lingustics and cognition for one concrete form of integral scholarship (not in Ken Wilber’s approach).

    http://markturner.org/cdss.html

    excerpt:
    “In this provocative and beautifully written book, Mark Turner describes conceptual integration, a.k.a. blending, as the basic mental operation that distinguishes cognitively modern humans from all other animals. He proposes a unification of the social sciences based on conceptual integration, showing that it is an essential part of either what we (interpretive) social scientists study or how we (qualitative) social scientists study what we study. The book is brimming with intriguing examples of conceptual blends from an incredible variety of domains. This is possible, of course, because conceptual integration is an absolutely ubiquitous form of cognition. ”

    Integral Science can deconstruct the cognitive basis of metaphysics and spirituality (which tells us a lot and overturns superstition, silly metaphysics, etc.), but that is NOT the same as individual people engaging in a transformative/healing practice, such as prayer/meditation, to reach “higher levels” of consciousness.

    In general, transformational practices are embedded in specific spiritual/cultural traditions, although the book about Esalen and “America’s religion of no religion” is an interesting example of “flexidoxy” (flexible orthodoxy) – which seems to be the “emergent” future of religion in postmodern/integral culture.

    http://www.amazon.com/Esalen-America-Religion-No/dp/0226453693

    Zaadz (now gaia.com?) is an example of an attempt at integral business.

    http://mashable.com/2007/03/29/zaadz/

    In on sense, the future is all about “spiritual capitalism”, which I predict will increase the tendency toward a american (and global) “religion of no religion”.

    On geopolitics/war, are you a “Stratfor.com” fan?

    adios muchachito,
    ep

    [quote comment="53720"]
    EP,

    come on lets just get out with it. You are an atheist.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Hey craig,

    I agree with you!

    Intelligence is key.
    …[/quote]

  • ep

    Pure anecdotal statement, from a Kalimat Press person with “insider” BWC info, or a “talisman1″ email list source.

    If you know Tony Lee (L.A.), ask him if he remembers the details.

    btw (more quasi name dropping), all those 1993 UHJ letters about homosexuality were written to an old friend of mine. he is still bahai, but keeps a pretty low profile.

    [quote comment="53723"]EP wrote:

    [quote post="507"]Mitchell has a reputation of being a loose cannon and egomaniac going way back to when he took over the US NSA as �secretariat�. He was told to cut out the crap and develop some humility when he was frst elected to the House and arrived at Haifa, or leave the UHJ.[/quote]

    Got any evidence for that? Don’t get me wrong, I thought Glenford Mitchell was wrong to say what he did, but if he was told to tone it down, I’d love to see the evidence, even if it is anecdotal.[/quote]

    [quote comment=""]re: “You are an atheist.”

    LOL! Thanks for the compliment, but “not exactly”.

  • ep

    Pure anecdotal statement, from a Kalimat Press person with “insider” BWC info, or a “talisman1″ email list source.

    If you know Tony Lee (L.A.), ask him if he remembers the details.

    btw (more quasi name dropping), all those 1993 UHJ letters about homosexuality were written to an old friend of mine. he is still bahai, but keeps a pretty low profile.

    [quote comment="53723"]EP wrote:

    [quote post="507"]Mitchell has a reputation of being a loose cannon and egomaniac going way back to when he took over the US NSA as �secretariat�. He was told to cut out the crap and develop some humility when he was frst elected to the House and arrived at Haifa, or leave the UHJ.[/quote]

    Got any evidence for that? Don’t get me wrong, I thought Glenford Mitchell was wrong to say what he did, but if he was told to tone it down, I’d love to see the evidence, even if it is anecdotal.[/quote]

    [quote comment=""]re: “You are an atheist.”

    LOL! Thanks for the compliment, but “not exactly”.

  • Anonnymouz

    EP,

    I respect your religious path, and far be it from me to critise it. However I apologize if I came off as abrasive, but rest assured I will never cease to defend the Baha’is.

    stratfor.com is interesting. I watch Al-Jazeera and Mosaic news…balanced views are needed.

    Anyway…I am reading Thich Naht Hahn and his insights are helpful.

    Check this book out. http://www.takemetotruth.com/ Really good.

  • Anonnymouz

    EP,

    I respect your religious path, and far be it from me to critise it. However I apologize if I came off as abrasive, but rest assured I will never cease to defend the Baha’is.

    stratfor.com is interesting. I watch Al-Jazeera and Mosaic news…balanced views are needed.

    Anyway…I am reading Thich Naht Hahn and his insights are helpful.

    Check this book out. http://www.takemetotruth.com/ Really good.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="53729"]

    AMAN wrote:

    Hey craig,

    I agree with you!

    Intelligence is key. I would argue too that warefare between nation states has changed in the conventional sense. Even the recent Israel/Lebanon tirade was based on a conventional army going against a guerrilla force…Didn’t work too well. Intel and special ops are in my opinion the strongest factors in winning a war. Peacekeepers are good as a follow up but they need more power and teeth, more integrated and versatile. Instead of countries donating brigades or companies, there should be a standing international force free of any national agenda and answerable only to a strong UN, neutral and interested in stability. Of course we are a long way off but just my two cents…[/quote]

    AMAN,

    Good! At least we agree on something.

    Maybe Glenford Mitchell should get out for dinner and a movie once every 40-100 years and maybe start reading up on things in his retirement now that he is out of the bubble. Maybe read something not written by his idol Shoghi Effendi for a complete change of pace.

    He could start with these two Generals. Few Americans these days seem to know anything about the military history of their country and the various currents of (gasp) thought. But, then again, “thinking” isn’t exactly in vogue anywhere these days. “Thinking” is very, very dangerous stuff to nation states and organizations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_M._Shoup

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_is_a_Racket

    Yep. Never ever ever ever commit military power to a situation without an intelligence capability on the ground. Study the thought processes of General Shoup when he was a Colonel at Tarawa in WWII. I knew a lot about the battle because my Father loaded the MASH unit ships for Tarawa and consequently was also involved when they came back with the wounded.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3ce-hreP-w

    My brother-in-law had a very good hand of cards in Afghanistan that he knew he ABSOLUTELY HAD to have for any success:

    (1) Extensive inherited intelligence assets from the Northern Alliance.
    (2) Good contacts with the Pushtuns.
    (3) Widely read knowledge of the history of the Moguhl Empire and how they ruled from their cities.
    (4) Speaking the language fluently.

    It saved lives and got the job done.

    It’s great that you are reading Thich Naht Hahn. I know several people who know him quite well. I love his books.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="53729"]

    AMAN wrote:

    Hey craig,

    I agree with you!

    Intelligence is key. I would argue too that warefare between nation states has changed in the conventional sense. Even the recent Israel/Lebanon tirade was based on a conventional army going against a guerrilla force…Didn’t work too well. Intel and special ops are in my opinion the strongest factors in winning a war. Peacekeepers are good as a follow up but they need more power and teeth, more integrated and versatile. Instead of countries donating brigades or companies, there should be a standing international force free of any national agenda and answerable only to a strong UN, neutral and interested in stability. Of course we are a long way off but just my two cents…[/quote]

    AMAN,

    Good! At least we agree on something.

    Maybe Glenford Mitchell should get out for dinner and a movie once every 40-100 years and maybe start reading up on things in his retirement now that he is out of the bubble. Maybe read something not written by his idol Shoghi Effendi for a complete change of pace.

    He could start with these two Generals. Few Americans these days seem to know anything about the military history of their country and the various currents of (gasp) thought. But, then again, “thinking” isn’t exactly in vogue anywhere these days. “Thinking” is very, very dangerous stuff to nation states and organizations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_M._Shoup

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_is_a_Racket

    Yep. Never ever ever ever commit military power to a situation without an intelligence capability on the ground. Study the thought processes of General Shoup when he was a Colonel at Tarawa in WWII. I knew a lot about the battle because my Father loaded the MASH unit ships for Tarawa and consequently was also involved when they came back with the wounded.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3ce-hreP-w

    My brother-in-law had a very good hand of cards in Afghanistan that he knew he ABSOLUTELY HAD to have for any success:

    (1) Extensive inherited intelligence assets from the Northern Alliance.
    (2) Good contacts with the Pushtuns.
    (3) Widely read knowledge of the history of the Moguhl Empire and how they ruled from their cities.
    (4) Speaking the language fluently.

    It saved lives and got the job done.

    It’s great that you are reading Thich Naht Hahn. I know several people who know him quite well. I love his books.

  • Anonymouz

    Craig I find it more and more pleasant talking with you if we keep it positive. I try not to attack people, especially if they are not here to defend themselves. Would you kindly consider doing the same? We can talk about the issues but I would like to try and stay upbeat…

  • Anonymouz

    Craig I find it more and more pleasant talking with you if we keep it positive. I try not to attack people, especially if they are not here to defend themselves. Would you kindly consider doing the same? We can talk about the issues but I would like to try and stay upbeat…

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Craig I find it more and more pleasant talking with you if we keep it positive. I try not to attack people, especially if they are not here to defend themselves. Would you kindly consider doing the same? We can talk about the issues but I would like to try and stay upbeat…[/quote]

    Agreed. I’ll tone down. I did my four years in cyber space to try to express my anguish. But now I think for my blood pressure to improve the best course is to just accept that nothing will ever change in the Baha’i Faith. The course is set for the next 850 years. I honestly believed it was never supposed to become a fundamentalist religion, but it now is and that is never going to change now. The UHJ will be elected from a closed list of people and their very close friends and professional admin-o-centric associates for the next 850 years. It is a fait accompli. Many people had honestly hoped for something better this time out but this aspect of human brain chemistry just could not be overcome. I think everyone must just accept that now. I think because of these outcomes, the Faith will remain a tiny marginal group of people for the next 850 years. It will never be a major player in the affairs of mankind like it could have if it would have chosen the path of true democratic openness and transparency in all things. That is never going to happen and I think the best course now is to just accept it and try to make the best of it. I did my best for almost four decades. I genuinely tried. But there is absolutely no hope for any method of free and open bottom up grass roots consultation in the Baha’i Faith any more. It is all top down from a very tiny clique of people who have gamed the system and that is the way it is. We all just have to accept this. That is the way it will be for the next 850 years at least.

    So, yes, I will tone down. Your viewpoint is the dominant viewpoint in the Baha’i Faith now. We all may as well try to find commmon ground on the other issues of life outside the Baha’i Faith organization.

    I plan on taking up astronomy. Get my mind off of this planet.

    I will be much more civil, Anon. Agreed. Everybody here have a good day!

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Craig I find it more and more pleasant talking with you if we keep it positive. I try not to attack people, especially if they are not here to defend themselves. Would you kindly consider doing the same? We can talk about the issues but I would like to try and stay upbeat…[/quote]

    Agreed. I’ll tone down. I did my four years in cyber space to try to express my anguish. But now I think for my blood pressure to improve the best course is to just accept that nothing will ever change in the Baha’i Faith. The course is set for the next 850 years. I honestly believed it was never supposed to become a fundamentalist religion, but it now is and that is never going to change now. The UHJ will be elected from a closed list of people and their very close friends and professional admin-o-centric associates for the next 850 years. It is a fait accompli. Many people had honestly hoped for something better this time out but this aspect of human brain chemistry just could not be overcome. I think everyone must just accept that now. I think because of these outcomes, the Faith will remain a tiny marginal group of people for the next 850 years. It will never be a major player in the affairs of mankind like it could have if it would have chosen the path of true democratic openness and transparency in all things. That is never going to happen and I think the best course now is to just accept it and try to make the best of it. I did my best for almost four decades. I genuinely tried. But there is absolutely no hope for any method of free and open bottom up grass roots consultation in the Baha’i Faith any more. It is all top down from a very tiny clique of people who have gamed the system and that is the way it is. We all just have to accept this. That is the way it will be for the next 850 years at least.

    So, yes, I will tone down. Your viewpoint is the dominant viewpoint in the Baha’i Faith now. We all may as well try to find commmon ground on the other issues of life outside the Baha’i Faith organization.

    I plan on taking up astronomy. Get my mind off of this planet.

    I will be much more civil, Anon. Agreed. Everybody here have a good day!

  • p

    Oh man that sucks, so that means I just need to continue going to the Unitarian church and give up any hope on the Bahai community? I hope you aren’t right Craig. :(

  • p

    Oh man that sucks, so that means I just need to continue going to the Unitarian church and give up any hope on the Bahai community? I hope you aren’t right Craig. :(

  • anonymuz

    My view is that things will change and the Faith right now is going through a stage, globally. As the World becomes more integrated and Baha’is realize that it is THEIR job as an individual to create the change they wish to see, more and more cool things will happen. One of my assembly members expressed his regret at how Baha’is in the West are too occupied with other things to truly move the Faith. This was his own opinion and we live in a very active community in a very progressive city but you can’t push people. It is not the administrations job to tell Baha’is how they serve the Cause in their own way, that’s where the freedom is greatest. It is getting better though, and by better I mean individuals are realizing that it is thier own chance and time to act (I would also argue that this is a result of the Ruhi process)…depends where you are.

    One time I said my community was stagnate, the Baha’i who I was talking to was serving in a continental position and said, that’s ok. It is a process. Just do your part and pray for the rest. I took that advice to heart and I am really happy as a Baha’i now, I used to get angry and frustrated and people would just look at me weird.

    Do your own thing and bring your own house in order then worry about the rest.

    Anyway…I know you don’t agree but thats ok too.

    Astronomy is humbling. I am in a graduate level course right now studying the history of life on the planet. Geological time is mind blowing and the human race is really only a blimp on the scale. Truly a perspective to appreciate…

  • anonymuz

    My view is that things will change and the Faith right now is going through a stage, globally. As the World becomes more integrated and Baha’is realize that it is THEIR job as an individual to create the change they wish to see, more and more cool things will happen. One of my assembly members expressed his regret at how Baha’is in the West are too occupied with other things to truly move the Faith. This was his own opinion and we live in a very active community in a very progressive city but you can’t push people. It is not the administrations job to tell Baha’is how they serve the Cause in their own way, that’s where the freedom is greatest. It is getting better though, and by better I mean individuals are realizing that it is thier own chance and time to act (I would also argue that this is a result of the Ruhi process)…depends where you are.

    One time I said my community was stagnate, the Baha’i who I was talking to was serving in a continental position and said, that’s ok. It is a process. Just do your part and pray for the rest. I took that advice to heart and I am really happy as a Baha’i now, I used to get angry and frustrated and people would just look at me weird.

    Do your own thing and bring your own house in order then worry about the rest.

    Anyway…I know you don’t agree but thats ok too.

    Astronomy is humbling. I am in a graduate level course right now studying the history of life on the planet. Geological time is mind blowing and the human race is really only a blimp on the scale. Truly a perspective to appreciate…

  • p

    For anyone who is interested. Here is the letter from the UHJ regarding the possibility of “treating” a fetus for the disability of homosexuality: http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=uhj_homosexuality_biology&language=All

  • p

    For anyone who is interested. Here is the letter from the UHJ regarding the possibility of “treating” a fetus for the disability of homosexuality: http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=uhj_homosexuality_biology&language=All

  • p

    oops sorry, I meant to post this on the other discussion. My bad.

  • p

    oops sorry, I meant to post this on the other discussion. My bad.

  • ep

    Yo! Craig, Sorry for the late response, was on vacation in Utah/Colorado, then returned to work and lots of deadlines. If you haven’t seen Mesa Verde National Park yet, is is awesome!

    Anyways, here is a good discussion of enlightenment, metaphysics and postmodern currents in global culture.

    http://www.wie.org/j33/guru-pandit.asp?ifr=hp-pop

    Short version: postmodernism destroys archetypes, so they can’t be used to integrate spiritualty at the leading edge of cultural evolution.

    Archetypes are TOTALLY legitimate way to explore human meaning as it has been developed in various cultures for thousands of years, but are limited in what they can accomplish at this point on the leading edge.

    And if spirituality can’t be integrated into the leading edge, it won’t matter as far as increasing enlightment goes, saving the planet, ecosystems, economy, and our own sanity.

    I was at the tail end of the counterculture, and as a kid, thought a lot of it was silly. That attitude has continued, so I gleefully absorb criticism of liberalism, feminism, leftism, pluralism, reltivism, etc., in all their forms. Living in a liberal state, city, working with liberals/leftists for 20 years has given me a very sceptical attitude about the possibility that liberalism can recover from the huge mistake of trying to drive the culture into an abyss of narcissicm and nihilism.

    When liberals spiritually evolve, the realize the practical limits of liberalism, and move toward integralism.

    Integralists can accept the validity of some aspects of conservatism, and the need for moral order (etc.) in a way that “pure” liberals can’t.

    The anti-war movement is a good example of the problem. Facts are distorted by many people in the anti-war movement to fit a preconceived agenda that is fiercely protected even when it is wrong. Too much “us vs. them” junk for me.

    Like Ken Wilber says, the sad fact is that there is no integral peace movement at this point.

    One of the interesting discussions threads that reappears from time to time on BR is about the malleability of bahai belief. Sen and Allison for instance come from traditions that assume malleability of belief. Which is why western culture has evolved. Mavadat, Andrew and others have made compelling cases that “at its core”, bahai scripture is hostile to such malleability, and so is dead from an evolutionary perspective.

    While the idealist in me wishes that bahai belief was/is malleable and capable of keeping up with cultural evolution, the realist says it never was, and probably never will be.

    This is of course painful. A lot of emotional investment was put into the sense of “belonging” that used to exist for many of us in the bahai community. Such pain is a good reason to meditate and detach, but also “never forget” how so many people looking for “belonging” got exploited by liars and deceivers calling themselves “bahai teachers” who actually got people to become bahai because to work on “social justice”!

    Sorry I haven’t had time to looks at the URLs and respond, hopefully soon.

    Regards,
    Eric P.

    [quote comment="53726"][quote comment="53713"]

    EP wrote:

    WWII was as full of horrors as Vietnam, but once it was over the WWII guys were expected to gut it out, or kill themselves with alcohol. In any case, no one would propose that WWII, or the north in the Civil War, was wrong “just because” of the horrors of war.
    [/quote]

    EP,

    I appreciate your long post. The tragedy is that the Baha’i Faith itself in it’s great potential could have been the most advanced proponent of grass roots Integralist thinking in the world. As you have stated before, you actually learned of the existence of this system of thought and analysis from fellow Baha’is!

    That wonderful opportunity is not going to happen now as the Faith is dumbed down into a tragic kind of muddled codified spiritual communism. An organization cannot be successful when everyone in it’s IQ is falling by the minute.

    Anyone who can think independently in the Baha’i Faith now is deemed the victim of “self” and “ego” and is the “enemy of the Party”…oops…I mean the “enemy of God”.

    So other communities of insight will run with these ideas and steal the Integralist meme analysis thunder of one of the best systems of planetary analysis yet developed in the unleashed energies of the New World Age.

    I myself do not feel that the concept of World Ages is regressive metaphysical thought at all. Quite to the contrary, it appears to be the most ancient system of Cosmic thinking yet developed by the human race.

    As to the use of military force, you have always somehow confused me with the street level anti-war movement of the 1960′s that you somehow did not like very much. I came from a different direction. I came from the system of perception of people that had actually served in the military. I am not a pacifist. I understand that the use of force is sometimes necessary in human affairs. But the use of force requires the highest thought and regard because the
    consequences are so great. It must be done with great skill.

    Skillful use of intelligence assets on the ground are much better than mere firepower. But somehow they just don’t seem to teach that at our Military Academies anymore. Never, ever commit military force without rock solid intelligence as to what they will encounter.

    Oh BTW, from our past exchanges, when I use the term “archetype” it seems to upset your disdain for neo-Platonic thinking. Although I myself like the neo-Platonic system of thought (of which the Baha’i Faith is probably the greatest modern revival), when I use the term “archetype” I am speaking in the C.G. Jung use of the term. I am talking psychological/spiritual archetypes in the human psyche

    [/quote]
    [quote comment=""]oops sorry, I meant to post this on the other discussion. My bad.[/quote]

  • ep

    Yo! Craig, Sorry for the late response, was on vacation in Utah/Colorado, then returned to work and lots of deadlines. If you haven’t seen Mesa Verde National Park yet, is is awesome!

    Anyways, here is a good discussion of enlightenment, metaphysics and postmodern currents in global culture.

    http://www.wie.org/j33/guru-pandit.asp?ifr=hp-pop

    Short version: postmodernism destroys archetypes, so they can’t be used to integrate spiritualty at the leading edge of cultural evolution.

    Archetypes are TOTALLY legitimate way to explore human meaning as it has been developed in various cultures for thousands of years, but are limited in what they can accomplish at this point on the leading edge.

    And if spirituality can’t be integrated into the leading edge, it won’t matter as far as increasing enlightment goes, saving the planet, ecosystems, economy, and our own sanity.

    I was at the tail end of the counterculture, and as a kid, thought a lot of it was silly. That attitude has continued, so I gleefully absorb criticism of liberalism, feminism, leftism, pluralism, reltivism, etc., in all their forms. Living in a liberal state, city, working with liberals/leftists for 20 years has given me a very sceptical attitude about the possibility that liberalism can recover from the huge mistake of trying to drive the culture into an abyss of narcissicm and nihilism.

    When liberals spiritually evolve, the realize the practical limits of liberalism, and move toward integralism.

    Integralists can accept the validity of some aspects of conservatism, and the need for moral order (etc.) in a way that “pure” liberals can’t.

    The anti-war movement is a good example of the problem. Facts are distorted by many people in the anti-war movement to fit a preconceived agenda that is fiercely protected even when it is wrong. Too much “us vs. them” junk for me.

    Like Ken Wilber says, the sad fact is that there is no integral peace movement at this point.

    One of the interesting discussions threads that reappears from time to time on BR is about the malleability of bahai belief. Sen and Allison for instance come from traditions that assume malleability of belief. Which is why western culture has evolved. Mavadat, Andrew and others have made compelling cases that “at its core”, bahai scripture is hostile to such malleability, and so is dead from an evolutionary perspective.

    While the idealist in me wishes that bahai belief was/is malleable and capable of keeping up with cultural evolution, the realist says it never was, and probably never will be.

    This is of course painful. A lot of emotional investment was put into the sense of “belonging” that used to exist for many of us in the bahai community. Such pain is a good reason to meditate and detach, but also “never forget” how so many people looking for “belonging” got exploited by liars and deceivers calling themselves “bahai teachers” who actually got people to become bahai because to work on “social justice”!

    Sorry I haven’t had time to looks at the URLs and respond, hopefully soon.

    Regards,
    Eric P.

    [quote comment="53726"][quote comment="53713"]

    EP wrote:

    WWII was as full of horrors as Vietnam, but once it was over the WWII guys were expected to gut it out, or kill themselves with alcohol. In any case, no one would propose that WWII, or the north in the Civil War, was wrong “just because” of the horrors of war.
    [/quote]

    EP,

    I appreciate your long post. The tragedy is that the Baha’i Faith itself in it’s great potential could have been the most advanced proponent of grass roots Integralist thinking in the world. As you have stated before, you actually learned of the existence of this system of thought and analysis from fellow Baha’is!

    That wonderful opportunity is not going to happen now as the Faith is dumbed down into a tragic kind of muddled codified spiritual communism. An organization cannot be successful when everyone in it’s IQ is falling by the minute.

    Anyone who can think independently in the Baha’i Faith now is deemed the victim of “self” and “ego” and is the “enemy of the Party”…oops…I mean the “enemy of God”.

    So other communities of insight will run with these ideas and steal the Integralist meme analysis thunder of one of the best systems of planetary analysis yet developed in the unleashed energies of the New World Age.

    I myself do not feel that the concept of World Ages is regressive metaphysical thought at all. Quite to the contrary, it appears to be the most ancient system of Cosmic thinking yet developed by the human race.

    As to the use of military force, you have always somehow confused me with the street level anti-war movement of the 1960′s that you somehow did not like very much. I came from a different direction. I came from the system of perception of people that had actually served in the military. I am not a pacifist. I understand that the use of force is sometimes necessary in human affairs. But the use of force requires the highest thought and regard because the
    consequences are so great. It must be done with great skill.

    Skillful use of intelligence assets on the ground are much better than mere firepower. But somehow they just don’t seem to teach that at our Military Academies anymore. Never, ever commit military force without rock solid intelligence as to what they will encounter.

    Oh BTW, from our past exchanges, when I use the term “archetype” it seems to upset your disdain for neo-Platonic thinking. Although I myself like the neo-Platonic system of thought (of which the Baha’i Faith is probably the greatest modern revival), when I use the term “archetype” I am speaking in the C.G. Jung use of the term. I am talking psychological/spiritual archetypes in the human psyche

    [/quote]
    [quote comment=""]oops sorry, I meant to post this on the other discussion. My bad.[/quote]

  • Masud

    Craig, when Mitchell said “be quiet” he meant for us not to get involved in the politics of it; “let God do His work” meant that everything happens for a reason; so it was NOT a political statement, quite to the contrary, he was telling us NOT to get involved in politics; and I don’t see how that could be offensive, though I must say that those who think it was do seem to have a vested interest in propagating that assertion…

  • Masud

    Craig, when Mitchell said “be quiet” he meant for us not to get involved in the politics of it; “let God do His work” meant that everything happens for a reason; so it was NOT a political statement, quite to the contrary, he was telling us NOT to get involved in politics; and I don’t see how that could be offensive, though I must say that those who think it was do seem to have a vested interest in propagating that assertion…

  • p

    and I don’t see how that could be offensive, though I must say that those who think it was do seem to have a vested interest in propagating that assertion…
    ————
    Funny, and you don’t have a vested interest? If anyone does it would the loyal card-carrying active Bahai who becomes the automatic apologist. So now apologists not only have to explain the official writings, but also unofficial speeches by UHJ members. Masud, when you get a direct reply of what Mr. Mitchell said from HIM, then get back to us. Otherwise, his offensive remarks are pretty clear to any unbiased observer.

  • p

    and I don’t see how that could be offensive, though I must say that those who think it was do seem to have a vested interest in propagating that assertion…
    ————\
    Funny, and you don’t have a vested interest? If anyone does it would the loyal card-carrying active Bahai who becomes the automatic apologist. So now apologists not only have to explain the official writings, but also unofficial speeches by UHJ members. Masud, when you get a direct reply of what Mr. Mitchell said from HIM, then get back to us. Otherwise, his offensive remarks are pretty clear to any unbiased observer.

  • Masud

    Well, when an unofficial speech by a UHJ member is taken out of context and is spun in a way reminiscent of Fox News, one must try to explain the statement. However, you didn’t respond to my post, you were just being (predictably) facetious and flippant. How is it offensive to say “stay out of politics” and “everything happens for a reason”? If you disagree with my interpretation of what he said, that’s a different story but it’s quite clear that if it’s understood as I’ve just laid it out, the statement is not offensive and cannot be construed to be offensive.

  • Masud

    Well, when an unofficial speech by a UHJ member is taken out of context and is spun in a way reminiscent of Fox News, one must try to explain the statement. However, you didn’t respond to my post, you were just being (predictably) facetious and flippant. How is it offensive to say “stay out of politics” and “everything happens for a reason”? If you disagree with my interpretation of what he said, that’s a different story but it’s quite clear that if it’s understood as I’ve just laid it out, the statement is not offensive and cannot be construed to be offensive.

  • p

    Masud I dare you to tell an adult “be quite and let God do his work” and see their reaction. I can guarantee you- it will be just a lil bit offensive. But of course you are being a predictable defender of anything the AO does- even when it’s not on behalf of the AO- just one of its members. YOU are the one who is so blatantly predictable.

  • p

    Masud I dare you to tell an adult “be quite and let God do his work” and see their reaction. I can guarantee you- it will be just a lil bit offensive. But of course you are being a predictable defender of anything the AO does- even when it’s not on behalf of the AO- just one of its members. YOU are the one who is so blatantly predictable.

  • Anonymouz

    Masud,

    I would suggest not arguing with P or Craig. They have very strong opinions and although I too disagree with them, I found it more conducive to focus on less divisive subjects…

    I was thinking of collecting a compilation of peoples dreams and thier experiences with the central figures. I know this may sound fluffy, but the ones I have had have been a constant reminder.

    Would anyone like to share one?

  • Anonymouz

    Masud,

    I would suggest not arguing with P or Craig. They have very strong opinions and although I too disagree with them, I found it more conducive to focus on less divisive subjects…

    I was thinking of collecting a compilation of peoples dreams and thier experiences with the central figures. I know this may sound fluffy, but the ones I have had have been a constant reminder.

    Would anyone like to share one?

  • Masud

    p,

    I’m an adult, and I’m not offended. (and I’m studying political science; one would think that the LAST thing I would want to do is be quiet) The reason I do this is that I know that in the Baha’i Faith we’re not supposed to participate in partisan politics; if THAT offends you, then I’m sorry, there’s nothing that can be done when someone is offended by someone else’s non-discriminatory belief. i.e. this is a non-issue, but you’re trying to make it into one, because as long as you can make a couple anti-AO statements in your posts, it seems anything will do.
    By the way, you STILL haven’t made any rebuttal to the content of my argument; all you’ve said is “it’s offensive” but you haven’t explained how or why it’s offensive. We are obligated to verify the truth for ourselves, however, the majority just follow conjecture. (and in this case, anti-AO propaganda)

    Anonymouz,

    Thanks for the suggestion. Once we get to the bottom of this, I will try to discuss less divisive subjects. What would you suggest? I think the collection of dreams is a fantastic idea; I have some friends who have had those kind of dreams. I’ll tell them about it and let you know, ok?

  • Masud

    p,

    I’m an adult, and I’m not offended. (and I’m studying political science; one would think that the LAST thing I would want to do is be quiet) The reason I do this is that I know that in the Baha’i Faith we’re not supposed to participate in partisan politics; if THAT offends you, then I’m sorry, there’s nothing that can be done when someone is offended by someone else’s non-discriminatory belief. i.e. this is a non-issue, but you’re trying to make it into one, because as long as you can make a couple anti-AO statements in your posts, it seems anything will do.
    By the way, you STILL haven’t made any rebuttal to the content of my argument; all you’ve said is “it’s offensive” but you haven’t explained how or why it’s offensive. We are obligated to verify the truth for ourselves, however, the majority just follow conjecture. (and in this case, anti-AO propaganda)

    Anonymouz,

    Thanks for the suggestion. Once we get to the bottom of this, I will try to discuss less divisive subjects. What would you suggest? I think the collection of dreams is a fantastic idea; I have some friends who have had those kind of dreams. I’ll tell them about it and let you know, ok?

  • p

    Are you taking a class on spin as well? At the height of a terrorist attack, when the government of the United States is contemplating attacking another country, this man as a memeber of the UHJ gets in front of a Bahai crowd and tells them to be quiet about what’s going on and let the US government do its thing as God wants. And you spin that so that it is an innocent little statement against getting involved with politics. If that was the case, Mr. Mitchell could have just said “Dear Friends, it is turbulent times like this that we must remember the Bahai stance that we not get mixed up in the divisive world of politics one either side of the spectrum.” BUT NOT. That is NOT what he said, no matter how much you and Anon wish to spin this. You talk about agendas. I have none. I’ll give credit to any member and former member of the UHJ when they say something worthwhile, but when they don’t, like in this perfect example, then I will call them out on it. Unfortunately, you two on the otherhand can’t be unbiased, because you have to protect that divine institution, and now even it’s former members when they speak for themselves, at any cost. Again so predictable.

  • p

    Are you taking a class on spin as well? At the height of a terrorist attack, when the government of the United States is contemplating attacking another country, this man as a memeber of the UHJ gets in front of a Bahai crowd and tells them to be quiet about what’s going on and let the US government do its thing as God wants. And you spin that so that it is an innocent little statement against getting involved with politics. If that was the case, Mr. Mitchell could have just said “Dear Friends, it is turbulent times like this that we must remember the Bahai stance that we not get mixed up in the divisive world of politics one either side of the spectrum.” BUT NOT. That is NOT what he said, no matter how much you and Anon wish to spin this. You talk about agendas. I have none. I’ll give credit to any member and former member of the UHJ when they say something worthwhile, but when they don’t, like in this perfect example, then I will call them out on it. Unfortunately, you two on the otherhand can’t be unbiased, because you have to protect that divine institution, and now even it’s former members when they speak for themselves, at any cost. Again so predictable.

  • Craig Parke

    Masud,

    Do you know anyone who has had a family member killed in battle in Iraq or Afghanistan while serving in the Armed Forces of the United States?

  • Craig Parke

    Masud,

    Do you know anyone who has had a family member killed in battle in Iraq or Afghanistan while serving in the Armed Forces of the United States?

  • Concourse on Low

    Masud wrote: By the way, you STILL haven’t made any rebuttal to the content of my argument; all you’ve said is �it’s offensive� but you haven’t explained how or why it’s offensive. We are obligated to verify the truth for ourselves, however, the majority just follow conjecture. (and in this case, anti-AO propaganda)

    Masud, you come off as another ten cent Bahai partisan with his fingers over his eyes and his thumbs in his ears.

    P has TWICE described WHY the remark by the former UHJ memeber is offensive, with his last comment giving a very detailed account of the context within which the remark must be understood; yet, you continue to blabber on with the phraseology of rational inquiry and discussion without ACTUALLY engaging in rational discussion and debate.

    Your description of P as disseminating “anti-AO propaganda” betrays the thick biased blinkers of your religious myopia, which precludes the possibility of any substantive discussion. We just get more evasion, non-sequiturs, and ad hominems.

    You say you’re studying Political Science. Have you enrolled in a critical reasoning course yet? I suggest you do. You might learn to ACTUALLY reason critically instead of just using buzzwords and miming the activity.

  • Concourse on Low

    Masud wrote: By the way, you STILL haven’t made any rebuttal to the content of my argument; all you’ve said is �it’s offensive� but you haven’t explained how or why it’s offensive. We are obligated to verify the truth for ourselves, however, the majority just follow conjecture. (and in this case, anti-AO propaganda)

    Masud, you come off as another ten cent Bahai partisan with his fingers over his eyes and his thumbs in his ears.

    P has TWICE described WHY the remark by the former UHJ memeber is offensive, with his last comment giving a very detailed account of the context within which the remark must be understood; yet, you continue to blabber on with the phraseology of rational inquiry and discussion without ACTUALLY engaging in rational discussion and debate.

    Your description of P as disseminating “anti-AO propaganda” betrays the thick biased blinkers of your religious myopia, which precludes the possibility of any substantive discussion. We just get more evasion, non-sequiturs, and ad hominems.

    You say you’re studying Political Science. Have you enrolled in a critical reasoning course yet? I suggest you do. You might learn to ACTUALLY reason critically instead of just using buzzwords and miming the activity.

  • Anonymouz

    CoL,

    You too seem to attack Masud and for that matter anyone else who agrees or at least understands what Mr Mitchell is talking about…I have weighed and considered both sides of the coin, and frankly there a points for both. What we all seem to be guilty of sometimes is going right onto the attack when someone questions or defends with out sufficient paragraphs of reason and proof. Its evident that some people don’t agree with Mr. Mitchell, and some people do, but agreeing with his opinion or disagreeing isnt the issue–the issue is in how we communicate our opinions.

    Here are some helpful things we should all consider…

    Wait. Before you rush in with a response to a comment that someone’s posting, ask yourself, �Are they venting, or do they WANT me to help them find a solution?� If they seem to be venting, DON’T TRY TO FIX THINGS.

    Ask respectful questions. When you do ask a question, don’t drill them. Ask one that respects their intelligence and seeks out their opinion. For example, rather than, �What in the world were you thinking?!� ask, �What would you have done differently?�

    (courtesy of JT)

  • Anonymouz

    CoL,

    You too seem to attack Masud and for that matter anyone else who agrees or at least understands what Mr Mitchell is talking about…I have weighed and considered both sides of the coin, and frankly there a points for both. What we all seem to be guilty of sometimes is going right onto the attack when someone questions or defends with out sufficient paragraphs of reason and proof. Its evident that some people don’t agree with Mr. Mitchell, and some people do, but agreeing with his opinion or disagreeing isnt the issue–the issue is in how we communicate our opinions.

    Here are some helpful things we should all consider…

    Wait. Before you rush in with a response to a comment that someone’s posting, ask yourself, �Are they venting, or do they WANT me to help them find a solution?� If they seem to be venting, DON’T TRY TO FIX THINGS.

    Ask respectful questions. When you do ask a question, don’t drill them. Ask one that respects their intelligence and seeks out their opinion. For example, rather than, �What in the world were you thinking?!� ask, �What would you have done differently?�

    (courtesy of JT)

  • Masud

    Craig,

    Yes I do. I know two people. What are you trying to get at?

  • Masud

    Craig,

    Yes I do. I know two people. What are you trying to get at?

  • Concourse on Low

    Anonymouz,

    Thank you for your brain dead, patrionizing advice on conversational etiquette.

    <<You too seem to attack Masud and for that matter anyone else who agrees or at least understands what Mr Mitchell is talking about…>>

    Please note, when offering such advice, don’t commit such grossly indecorous acts as uttering untruths about what I’ve purportedly said, in what manner, and to whom.

    Since I haven’t commented here for a few weeks you’re going to have to corroborate that statement with some evidence. Otherwise, I’ll continue to consider you a disingenuous interlocutor.

    Here are some real helpful things to consider…

    When discussing an issue, reflect on the arguments being presented. Ask yourself: what are the premises? Are they sound? Does the conclusion follow from the premises offered? Do I agree or disagree? Why? How can I communicate my position concisely and effecitvely without obfuscation, evasion and misdirection?

  • Concourse on Low

    Anonymouz,

    Thank you for your brain dead, patrionizing advice on conversational etiquette.

    <<You too seem to attack Masud and for that matter anyone else who agrees or at least understands what Mr Mitchell is talking about…>>

    Please note, when offering such advice, don’t commit such grossly indecorous acts as uttering untruths about what I’ve purportedly said, in what manner, and to whom.

    Since I haven’t commented here for a few weeks you’re going to have to corroborate that statement with some evidence. Otherwise, I’ll continue to consider you a disingenuous interlocutor.

    Here are some real helpful things to consider…

    When discussing an issue, reflect on the arguments being presented. Ask yourself: what are the premises? Are they sound? Does the conclusion follow from the premises offered? Do I agree or disagree? Why? How can I communicate my position concisely and effecitvely without obfuscation, evasion and misdirection?

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Craig,

    Yes I do. I know two people. What are you trying to get at?[/quote]

    In their grief and their weeping did you go up to them and say “Well, will you knock it off and just be quiet and let God do his work?”

    I took Glenford Mitchell’s statement to be for all people, everywhere on Earth. EVERYONE just must accept that the Armed Forces of the United States in WHATEVER IT DOES, is “doing God’s work”. I found it a profoundly political statement. Completely thoughtless. Completely endangering Baha’is in Middle Eastern countries in a time of war. Completely unnecessary to say. Completely disgraceful as an insult to veterans in the Baha’i Faith who grieved at what they did while serving in the U.S. military and actually joined the Baha’i Faith in their hope it would help prevent the next generation from suffering the horrors of war. I have known many. But I guess to typical soft, protected, middle class Brooks Brother Suit yuppie apparatchik Baha’is in their bubble it is fine to let the Armed Forces of the United States “do God’s work” while, of course, they themselves are safe and do not have to do it since Baha’is, themsleves, receive CO status. At least in the United States. “Doing God’s work” by killing and being killed in war is apparently for other, lessor, souls who are, after all, not part of the special chosen “people of the Covenant” in this Day.

    I don’t buy an iota of this kind of thinking and i have been a Baha’i for 36 years. I think Glenford Mitchell is a completely thoughtless human being and an embarrassment to the Faith.

    You seem to be saying that ONLY BAHA’IS should “be quiet and let God do His work”. Oh. yeah. That seems much more morally defensible. NOT! Both readings are the statement of a man who has led a completely sheltered life in the AO cult bubble.

    I also say if you yourself believed the Armed Forces of the United States are “doing God’s work” as in the bloodless “everything has a reason” platitude, then why aren’t you there right now? Why haven’t you enlisted? Why aren’t you in the front lines in Iraq or Afghanistan RIGHT NOW? If you are in school, then you are of military service age. You have an Iranian name. Why does an American soldier have to be there un harm’s way IN YOUR PLACE “doing God’s work”? What aren’t you there going up against your Shia Iranian Brothers in group think CDMC (clan d**k measuring contest) lock step Shia Islam where you will get decapitated in the name of God if taken prisoner for being BOTH an American (if you are indeed here in the Iranian Baha’is diaspora) AND a Baha’i? Or skinned alive like the two GI’s taken in reprisal in the rape at Haditha incident two years ago? (Is rape “doing God’s work” too?) This was never in the papers here. But that is known in military circles among friends I have.

    Why aren’t you there right now risking decapitation by 7th Century “religious” CDMC zeal or being taken prisoner and skinned alive if you believe war is God “doing His work”?

    I don’t believe that at all. And I am sick of the jack ass Abrahamic religions from the dip shit group think pathetic cultures of the Middle East that teach it still including the Baha’i Faith.

    Tell me where you are living if you are in the U.S. and even with $5 gallon gas I will come to you and personally drive you to the recruiting station. How about the Marine Corps? You’ll get to be right on the front lines in Afghanistan if the war shifts. You can stop by and visit with my sister if you can get to Kabul. She’ll leave a light on for you.

    Does this answer your question as to “What are you trying to get at?”

    People that believe in war as God “doing His work” should serve in war. This is the only moral choice for that belief. That includes you. And that includes Glenford Mitchell. But as a former 1st Lieutenant I would be very, very wary of any battle plan designed by Glenford Mitchell. But then again, maybe 18 weeks at Ft. Benning crawling on his belly might prepare him to get something right. Age is no cause for exemption when it comes to the imperative to get out there and “do God’s work”. At least he should know how to set up a proper night vision ambush and zero in all mortars, machine guns, and, if necessary, artillery fire. Today they can even use GPS coordinates via satellite. Maybe he could get that right? And if he is your Company Commander and he gets it wrong out there in the night, you are dead. And I can come and visit your weeping family and say “Sheesh. You people are just a bunch of cry babies. Will you be quiet and let God do His work.”

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Craig,

    Yes I do. I know two people. What are you trying to get at?[/quote]

    In their grief and their weeping did you go up to them and say “Well, will you knock it off and just be quiet and let God do his work?”

    I took Glenford Mitchell’s statement to be for all people, everywhere on Earth. EVERYONE just must accept that the Armed Forces of the United States in WHATEVER IT DOES, is “doing God’s work”. I found it a profoundly political statement. Completely thoughtless. Completely endangering Baha’is in Middle Eastern countries in a time of war. Completely unnecessary to say. Completely disgraceful as an insult to veterans in the Baha’i Faith who grieved at what they did while serving in the U.S. military and actually joined the Baha’i Faith in their hope it would help prevent the next generation from suffering the horrors of war. I have known many. But I guess to typical soft, protected, middle class Brooks Brother Suit yuppie apparatchik Baha’is in their bubble it is fine to let the Armed Forces of the United States “do God’s work” while, of course, they themselves are safe and do not have to do it since Baha’is, themsleves, receive CO status. At least in the United States. “Doing God’s work” by killing and being killed in war is apparently for other, lessor, souls who are, after all, not part of the special chosen “people of the Covenant” in this Day.

    I don’t buy an iota of this kind of thinking and i have been a Baha’i for 36 years. I think Glenford Mitchell is a completely thoughtless human being and an embarrassment to the Faith.

    You seem to be saying that ONLY BAHA’IS should “be quiet and let God do His work”. Oh. yeah. That seems much more morally defensible. NOT! Both readings are the statement of a man who has led a completely sheltered life in the AO cult bubble.

    I also say if you yourself believed the Armed Forces of the United States are “doing God’s work” as in the bloodless “everything has a reason” platitude, then why aren’t you there right now? Why haven’t you enlisted? Why aren’t you in the front lines in Iraq or Afghanistan RIGHT NOW? If you are in school, then you are of military service age. You have an Iranian name. Why does an American soldier have to be there un harm’s way IN YOUR PLACE “doing God’s work”? What aren’t you there going up against your Shia Iranian Brothers in group think CDMC (clan d**k measuring contest) lock step Shia Islam where you will get decapitated in the name of God if taken prisoner for being BOTH an American (if you are indeed here in the Iranian Baha’is diaspora) AND a Baha’i? Or skinned alive like the two GI’s taken in reprisal in the rape at Haditha incident two years ago? (Is rape “doing God’s work” too?) This was never in the papers here. But that is known in military circles among friends I have.

    Why aren’t you there right now risking decapitation by 7th Century “religious” CDMC zeal or being taken prisoner and skinned alive if you believe war is God “doing His work”?

    I don’t believe that at all. And I am sick of the jack ass Abrahamic religions from the dip shit group think pathetic cultures of the Middle East that teach it still including the Baha’i Faith.

    Tell me where you are living if you are in the U.S. and even with $5 gallon gas I will come to you and personally drive you to the recruiting station. How about the Marine Corps? You’ll get to be right on the front lines in Afghanistan if the war shifts. You can stop by and visit with my sister if you can get to Kabul. She’ll leave a light on for you.

    Does this answer your question as to “What are you trying to get at?”

    People that believe in war as God “doing His work” should serve in war. This is the only moral choice for that belief. That includes you. And that includes Glenford Mitchell. But as a former 1st Lieutenant I would be very, very wary of any battle plan designed by Glenford Mitchell. But then again, maybe 18 weeks at Ft. Benning crawling on his belly might prepare him to get something right. Age is no cause for exemption when it comes to the imperative to get out there and “do God’s work”. At least he should know how to set up a proper night vision ambush and zero in all mortars, machine guns, and, if necessary, artillery fire. Today they can even use GPS coordinates via satellite. Maybe he could get that right? And if he is your Company Commander and he gets it wrong out there in the night, you are dead. And I can come and visit your weeping family and say “Sheesh. You people are just a bunch of cry babies. Will you be quiet and let God do His work.”

  • Anonymouz

    Just to be clear Craig…the beginning of the talk you keep hounding people about has this clear disclaimer put forward by Mr. Mitchell himself…

    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.

    Not a grain of salt as the common adage goes…but a BLOCK of salt, meaning don’t dwell on the view I put forward and by no means take it officially or even interpretively as the position of the Institutions or of the Faith.

    But, you still do…Someone needs to move on.

    http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=mitchell_time_peril_peace&language=All

  • Anonymouz

    Just to be clear Craig…the beginning of the talk you keep hounding people about has this clear disclaimer put forward by Mr. Mitchell himself…

    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.

    Not a grain of salt as the common adage goes…but a BLOCK of salt, meaning don’t dwell on the view I put forward and by no means take it officially or even interpretively as the position of the Institutions or of the Faith.

    But, you still do…Someone needs to move on.

    http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=mitchell_time_peril_peace&language=All

  • Concourse on Low

    Anonymouz,

    Bahai’is universally preface whatever they have to say with that disclaimer. But that doesn’t mean that certain individuals in the Baha’i community, such as ex-UHJ members, don’t enjoy greater authoritative status in the eyes of Bahais.

    While an ex-UHJ member may not have de jure authority, his or her…er…ooops…his.. speeches, talks and writings are viewed as having de facto authority.

    So while they do make that disclaimer, it’s not always viewed that way by the community.

  • Concourse on Low

    Anonymouz,

    Bahai’is universally preface whatever they have to say with that disclaimer. But that doesn’t mean that certain individuals in the Baha’i community, such as ex-UHJ members, don’t enjoy greater authoritative status in the eyes of Bahais.

    While an ex-UHJ member may not have de jure authority, his or her…er…ooops…his.. speeches, talks and writings are viewed as having de facto authority.

    So while they do make that disclaimer, it’s not always viewed that way by the community.

  • p

    Not a grain of salt as the common adage goes…but a BLOCK of salt, meaning don’t dwell on the view I put forward and by no means take it officially or even interpretively as the position of the Institutions or of the Faith.
    ——————-
    Ok then why do you two keep insisting that there is another hidden meaning? Why does Masud have to claim that those of us who see it for the disgusting political statement that it is are actually people who want to bring down the great AO! Please, it’s pathetic how you all won’t just admit that this unofficial statement by a former member of the UHJ is horrible. Why? Because to do so is tantamount to being against the AO in Masud’s eye.

  • p

    Not a grain of salt as the common adage goes…but a BLOCK of salt, meaning don’t dwell on the view I put forward and by no means take it officially or even interpretively as the position of the Institutions or of the Faith.
    ——————-
    Ok then why do you two keep insisting that there is another hidden meaning? Why does Masud have to claim that those of us who see it for the disgusting political statement that it is are actually people who want to bring down the great AO! Please, it’s pathetic how you all won’t just admit that this unofficial statement by a former member of the UHJ is horrible. Why? Because to do so is tantamount to being against the AO in Masud’s eye.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="54024"]Just to be clear Craig…the beginning of the talk you keep hounding people about has this clear disclaimer put forward by Mr. Mitchell himself…

    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.

    Not a grain of salt as the common adage goes…but a BLOCK of salt, meaning don’t dwell on the view I put forward and by no means take it officially or even interpretively as the position of the Institutions or of the Faith.

    But, you still do…Someone needs to move on.

    http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=mitchell_time_peril_peace&language=All/quote

    I know that Anon. That is your defense of this. By this defense you can defend them as individuals from saying ANYTHING THEY WANT with no consequence whatsoever to any rank and file Baha’i anywhere in the world (they can destroy with complete impunity carefully constructed 12 year sustained teaching projects by rank and file Baha’is like me to target communities like Glenford Mitchell did to me in this speech) or the dignity of the Faith in the eyes of the world. You are saying they are completely exempt and completely not held accountable for anything they say if they put their little disclaimer in front of all of their speeches. All of them do it with mathematical precision. Glenford Mitchell, Peter Khan, Douglas Martin, Paul Lample all have outrageous statements out on the Internet – MANY in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the actual Teachings of the Central Figures – for which they are not personally ever held accountable because they have this little disclaimer. That is your position I know. I fully understand your position to defend what anyone says, to any Baha’i or non-Baha’i audience at any time for any reason if they are apparently in a high enough position of authority. You essentially say they are never personally held accountable to anyone for all time ever AS LONG AS they put forth that disclaimer for immunity!

    I understand your position. I have heard it before.

    But I say this defense is total baloney. I say these people by their behavior are shocking little egomaniacs and attention addicts. I say they, to a man, absolutely reek of self and ego in their positions. I say they are not “selfless” at all but are profoundly psychologically needy and grasping incredibly immature people. And I say they will eventually be seen that way by both future world history and the Baha’is of the future from this pathetic but perhaps necessary period of the spiritual development of the Faith. In my opinion they are Ancient Spiritual Archetypes that have taken themselves to incredible Divine Judgment in accordance with the insights of the concept of Archetypal Eternal Return as set forth in the Kitab-I-Iqan itself. My observation is that they are, to a man, extremely psychologically weak people. They need to fly around the world on the money of widows and orphans and give their speeches to captive Baha’i audiances as their psychological system of self identity. How did this happen? I say because they have had lifetime positions in a cult bubble where no one is EVER held accountable for anything. In such a never ending bubble they have no consciousness of any accountability whatsoever. Ever. Hence these amazing speeches of their endless, endless, endless insights and opinions on everything under the Sun.

    If they are going to do this on my money as a Baha’i, then I say I have the right to say any of them are completely full of s**t in what they say in their published speeches on the Internet if that is my analysis. As a member of the rank and file I am not standing for it. I have been a follower of the Teachings of Baha’u’llah for 36 years. They can come and knock on my door any time. Let’s have it out. Go ahead and report me. This is my real name. They can find me on the roles. I say these people in their personal opinions are full of s**t as displayed in their published speeches on the Internet. If they can say how they see things why can’t I say how I see things? Again, in case you missed my point, I say these guys, to a man, are full of s**t. I say what they all think in their personal opinions in what I have read of their speeches has nothing whatsoever to do with the writing of the Central Figures of the Baha’i Faith.

    Anyone here can report me to the “Baha’i authorities” after 36 years in the Faith. I could care less. I do not fear these people at all. In fact I hold them in contempt. They have changed the Teachings of Baha’u’llah. They have traveled the world on the money of widows and orphans to give THEIR MERE PERSONAL OPINIONS to audiences. Where is this in their job description?

    Their opinions on ANYTHING are sheer, unadulterated, meaningless baloney. They have no more weight than anyone else’s opinion as you yourself have said. So why give them to audiences?

    History will decide, Anon. I will be gone from this world. But I say it is not looking very good for them.

    But this is just “my opinion”.

    “Take what I post with ‘a block of salt’. Not a grain of salt as the common adage goes…but a BLOCK of salt, meaning don’t dwell on the view I put forward and by no means take it officially or even interpretively as the position of the Institutions or of the Faith.”

    But then again, the Baha’is of the world are not paying my cable broadband bill this month nor did they pay for my transportation and lunch today.

    And it was even a small lunch because I am back on a diet. Is Peter Khan too these days?

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="54024"]Just to be clear Craig…the beginning of the talk you keep hounding people about has this clear disclaimer put forward by Mr. Mitchell himself…

    “Loving greetings from the Universal House of Justice. You should feel embraced by the Universal House of Justice. That is the only “official” thing you will hear from me-take all the rest with “a block of salt.

    Not a grain of salt as the common adage goes…but a BLOCK of salt, meaning don’t dwell on the view I put forward and by no means take it officially or even interpretively as the position of the Institutions or of the Faith.

    But, you still do…Someone needs to move on.

    http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=mitchell_time_peril_peace&language=All/quote

    I know that Anon. That is your defense of this. By this defense you can defend them as individuals from saying ANYTHING THEY WANT with no consequence whatsoever to any rank and file Baha’i anywhere in the world (they can destroy with complete impunity carefully constructed 12 year sustained teaching projects by rank and file Baha’is like me to target communities like Glenford Mitchell did to me in this speech) or the dignity of the Faith in the eyes of the world. You are saying they are completely exempt and completely not held accountable for anything they say if they put their little disclaimer in front of all of their speeches. All of them do it with mathematical precision. Glenford Mitchell, Peter Khan, Douglas Martin, Paul Lample all have outrageous statements out on the Internet – MANY in DIRECT CONTRADICTION to the actual Teachings of the Central Figures – for which they are not personally ever held accountable because they have this little disclaimer. That is your position I know. I fully understand your position to defend what anyone says, to any Baha’i or non-Baha’i audience at any time for any reason if they are apparently in a high enough position of authority. You essentially say they are never personally held accountable to anyone for all time ever AS LONG AS they put forth that disclaimer for immunity!

    I understand your position. I have heard it before.

    But I say this defense is total baloney. I say these people by their behavior are shocking little egomaniacs and attention addicts. I say they, to a man, absolutely reek of self and ego in their positions. I say they are not “selfless” at all but are profoundly psychologically needy and grasping incredibly immature people. And I say they will eventually be seen that way by both future world history and the Baha’is of the future from this pathetic but perhaps necessary period of the spiritual development of the Faith. In my opinion they are Ancient Spiritual Archetypes that have taken themselves to incredible Divine Judgment in accordance with the insights of the concept of Archetypal Eternal Return as set forth in the Kitab-I-Iqan itself. My observation is that they are, to a man, extremely psychologically weak people. They need to fly around the world on the money of widows and orphans and give their speeches to captive Baha’i audiances as their psychological system of self identity. How did this happen? I say because they have had lifetime positions in a cult bubble where no one is EVER held accountable for anything. In such a never ending bubble they have no consciousness of any accountability whatsoever. Ever. Hence these amazing speeches of their endless, endless, endless insights and opinions on everything under the Sun.

    If they are going to do this on my money as a Baha’i, then I say I have the right to say any of them are completely full of s**t in what they say in their published speeches on the Internet if that is my analysis. As a member of the rank and file I am not standing for it. I have been a follower of the Teachings of Baha’u’llah for 36 years. They can come and knock on my door any time. Let’s have it out. Go ahead and report me. This is my real name. They can find me on the roles. I say these people in their personal opinions are full of s**t as displayed in their published speeches on the Internet. If they can say how they see things why can’t I say how I see things? Again, in case you missed my point, I say these guys, to a man, are full of s**t. I say what they all think in their personal opinions in what I have read of their speeches has nothing whatsoever to do with the writing of the Central Figures of the Baha’i Faith.

    Anyone here can report me to the “Baha’i authorities” after 36 years in the Faith. I could care less. I do not fear these people at all. In fact I hold them in contempt. They have changed the Teachings of Baha’u’llah. They have traveled the world on the money of widows and orphans to give THEIR MERE PERSONAL OPINIONS to audiences. Where is this in their job description?

    Their opinions on ANYTHING are sheer, unadulterated, meaningless baloney. They have no more weight than anyone else’s opinion as you yourself have said. So why give them to audiences?

    History will decide, Anon. I will be gone from this world. But I say it is not looking very good for them.

    But this is just “my opinion”.

    “Take what I post with ‘a block of salt’. Not a grain of salt as the common adage goes…but a BLOCK of salt, meaning don’t dwell on the view I put forward and by no means take it officially or even interpretively as the position of the Institutions or of the Faith.”

    But then again, the Baha’is of the world are not paying my cable broadband bill this month nor did they pay for my transportation and lunch today.

    And it was even a small lunch because I am back on a diet. Is Peter Khan too these days?

  • Anonymouz

    Yet again craig we seem to be at square one. This is almost ver batim the same thing I read a few months when I started hanging around here. If anything, you say you understand, and I say I understand–and we disagree. I sincerely encourage you to consider the rest of the talk and its context. Moreover, if you were to acknowledge the FACT that 90% of the contents of the speech is actually quotations and references to the Writings, you would see that it is hard to disagree with or at least not AKNOWLEDGE the angle he is coming from simply because he is using the scripture and language of the central figures—not some monologue or repeating rant (which someone does here).

    You too CoL fail to admit and just simply hide in the mental cave from the light. Mr. Mitchell, while respected just like other Baha’i notables, holds no authority. If someones talk is FULL of quotations and references to the writings—that makes it authoritative.

    So, in conclusion, while I acknowledge and agree with you that if anyone, Baha’i notable or otherwise were to stand up and try to building some kind of cult following or bring attention or convince people of a certain view point centered on themselves or a particular controversial interpretation, it should be condemned. However that is not what is happening here so I will never let slide the spinning you too seem to keep doing.

    Craig you slander Baha’i speakers as psychologically needy etc…but there is nothing to back that up. Not one thing. Are you a psychiatrist or a PhD in analytical behavior? Are you too a former CIA profiler? Do you have some kind of psychedelic mind reading ability picked up with experimental drugs you came across in the 70s?

    My advice: Stop dwelling on your opinions and creating a vicious cycle of accusations based in interpretations instead of facts.

  • Anonymouz

    Yet again craig we seem to be at square one. This is almost ver batim the same thing I read a few months when I started hanging around here. If anything, you say you understand, and I say I understand–and we disagree. I sincerely encourage you to consider the rest of the talk and its context. Moreover, if you were to acknowledge the FACT that 90% of the contents of the speech is actually quotations and references to the Writings, you would see that it is hard to disagree with or at least not AKNOWLEDGE the angle he is coming from simply because he is using the scripture and language of the central figures—not some monologue or repeating rant (which someone does here).

    You too CoL fail to admit and just simply hide in the mental cave from the light. Mr. Mitchell, while respected just like other Baha’i notables, holds no authority. If someones talk is FULL of quotations and references to the writings—that makes it authoritative.

    So, in conclusion, while I acknowledge and agree with you that if anyone, Baha’i notable or otherwise were to stand up and try to building some kind of cult following or bring attention or convince people of a certain view point centered on themselves or a particular controversial interpretation, it should be condemned. However that is not what is happening here so I will never let slide the spinning you too seem to keep doing.

    Craig you slander Baha’i speakers as psychologically needy etc…but there is nothing to back that up. Not one thing. Are you a psychiatrist or a PhD in analytical behavior? Are you too a former CIA profiler? Do you have some kind of psychedelic mind reading ability picked up with experimental drugs you came across in the 70s?

    My advice: Stop dwelling on your opinions and creating a vicious cycle of accusations based in interpretations instead of facts.

  • p

    So while I respect your plight and how strongly you feel about this topic, it seems that it’s blinding you from any objective analysis of his statement…
    ———————
    The pot calling the kettle black. Your agenda is so obvious. Not just protect the AO, but even its members when they say offensive things. This is wonderful. So when a member of the AO has an axe to grind with someone in the Bahai community, he can get up in front of a room full of Bahais, spout off anything he wants and all he has to do is start off with “Friends this is just a non-official personal opinion of mine”. Yeah right, a personal opinion that people like Masud are willing to elevate to a moral high ground and protect at any cost. Pathetic!

  • p

    So while I respect your plight and how strongly you feel about this topic, it seems that it’s blinding you from any objective analysis of his statement…
    ———————
    The pot calling the kettle black. Your agenda is so obvious. Not just protect the AO, but even its members when they say offensive things. This is wonderful. So when a member of the AO has an axe to grind with someone in the Bahai community, he can get up in front of a room full of Bahais, spout off anything he wants and all he has to do is start off with “Friends this is just a non-official personal opinion of mine”. Yeah right, a personal opinion that people like Masud are willing to elevate to a moral high ground and protect at any cost. Pathetic!

  • p

    I object to your spinning for what he clearly said. He told Bahais to shut up and let the US do what it wants because the US government is blessed in the Bahai writings, so to him it gets a blank check from God. This is what I clearly read, Craig reads, EP reads and others here. But YOU have to make it a statement about not getting involved in politics. Why? Is it because you are afraid to believe that hey a mortal man with really bad ideas could have made it to ranks of the UHJ? You are the one with a bias. I already stated that I would always give respect where its due, but if someone says something stupid, then I will refute it- even if its a member of the UHJ. You on the otherhand have your agenda..
    Oh and as to your last question, I already gave you the answer in a previous post. If Mr. Mitchell had merely wanted to make that fact that we should not get involved in partisan politics, then he could have made it in a more neutral way. He didn’t because that’s not what he was saying.

  • p

    I object to your spinning for what he clearly said. He told Bahais to shut up and let the US do what it wants because the US government is blessed in the Bahai writings, so to him it gets a blank check from God. This is what I clearly read, Craig reads, EP reads and others here. But YOU have to make it a statement about not getting involved in politics. Why? Is it because you are afraid to believe that hey a mortal man with really bad ideas could have made it to ranks of the UHJ? You are the one with a bias. I already stated that I would always give respect where its due, but if someone says something stupid, then I will refute it- even if its a member of the UHJ. You on the otherhand have your agenda..
    Oh and as to your last question, I already gave you the answer in a previous post. If Mr. Mitchell had merely wanted to make that fact that we should not get involved in partisan politics, then he could have made it in a more neutral way. He didn’t because that’s not what he was saying.

  • p

    so everything you said about having �an axe to grind� doesn’t make any sense;
    —————-
    Tell that to a number of people who’ve been pushed out, dropped from the rolls or had voting rights removed for expressing their opinions. The stories are all online and yes many of them show instances where individuals of the AO have gottne up in front of Bahai crowds and seeded the idea that these are “enemies” within. Of course, those are all ok in your warped mind where you have to protect at any cost.

  • p

    so everything you said about having �an axe to grind� doesn’t make any sense;
    —————-
    Tell that to a number of people who’ve been pushed out, dropped from the rolls or had voting rights removed for expressing their opinions. The stories are all online and yes many of them show instances where individuals of the AO have gottne up in front of Bahai crowds and seeded the idea that these are “enemies” within. Of course, those are all ok in your warped mind where you have to protect at any cost.

  • ep

    I do not completely agree with Craig’s criticism of pro-war statements from BWC celebrities such as Glenford Mitchell, but I do feel that it is very very very important to understand what Craig is saying, and why he is saying it, and to honor his motives for saying it.

    I grew up in a military family (USAF) and saw lots of men die, and saw lots of children and spouses devastated by the deaths.

    What I personally think is wrong and stupid about BWC pro-war sentiments is their lack of sophstication, and how they are just another tired example of bahai leaders finding data to support pre-arranged conclusions about the upcoming collapse/ apocalypse (or whatever), after which an incompetent bahai religion will take over the world for somewhere between 1,000 and 500,000 years (give or take a week or two).

    I do not think that any of the legitimate world-peace movements or organizations or philosophers think that bahais are capable of making a contribution that will actually accomplish much of anything.

    When they look at bahai, they see distortionary apologetics and polemics, not a sane, balanced world perspective.

    Quoting Ken Wilber (from my previous post in this thread):

    —Ken Wilber—

    For the same reasons, I personally believe that any protest movement that does not equally protest both America’s invasion and Saddam’s murder of 400,000 people is a protest movement that does not truly represent peace or non-aggression or worldcentric values.

    I am aware of no major protest movement that has protested both forms of violence equally, and that has insisted upon an immediate end to both aggressions, and offered a believable way that both aggressions could actually be halted immediately so that neither side can continue its homicidal actions.

    That is, I am aware of no integral protest movement anywhere in the world, unfortunately.

    There are instead mainly pockets of blue, orange, and green values, all at each others’ throats.

    —end excerpt—

    Blue = Premodern
    Orange = Modernist
    Green = Postmodern

    In a letter written en behalf of the UHJ to a bahai scholar (Susan Maneck) several years ago, the letter instructed bahai scholars to “contribute” to “integrative paradigms” being developed in the world (by non-bahais).

    I don’t know if the UHJ actually knew what the stuff written on their behalf meant, but as far as I know, no major form of bahai integrative/integral scholarship has been developing.

    So, we have another example of incompetent bahais in leadership and their supporters (scholar’s organizations in this case) not even doing what the UHJ instructs them to do.

    [quote comment="54052"]I object to your spinning for what he clearly said. He told Bahais to shut up and let the US do what it wants because the US government is blessed in the Bahai writings, so to him it gets a blank check from God. This is what I clearly read, Craig reads, EP reads and others here. But YOU have to make it a statement about not getting involved in politics. Why? Is it because you are afraid to believe that hey a mortal man with really bad ideas could have made it to ranks of the UHJ? You are the one with a bias. I already stated that I would always give respect where its due, but if someone says something stupid, then I will refute it- even if its a member of the UHJ. You on the otherhand have your agenda..
    Oh and as to your last question, I already gave you the answer in a previous post. If Mr. Mitchell had merely wanted to make that fact that we should not get involved in partisan politics, then he could have made it in a more neutral way. He didn’t because that’s not what he was saying.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]so everything you said about having �an axe to grind� doesn’t make any sense;
    —————-
    Tell that to a number of people who’ve been pushed out, dropped from the rolls or had voting rights removed for expressing their opinions. The stories are all online and yes many of them show instances where individuals of the AO have gottne up in front of Bahai crowds and seeded the idea that these are “enemies” within. Of course, those are all ok in your warped mind where you have to protect at any cost.[/quote]

  • ep

    I do not completely agree with Craig’s criticism of pro-war statements from BWC celebrities such as Glenford Mitchell, but I do feel that it is very very very important to understand what Craig is saying, and why he is saying it, and to honor his motives for saying it.

    I grew up in a military family (USAF) and saw lots of men die, and saw lots of children and spouses devastated by the deaths.

    What I personally think is wrong and stupid about BWC pro-war sentiments is their lack of sophstication, and how they are just another tired example of bahai leaders finding data to support pre-arranged conclusions about the upcoming collapse/ apocalypse (or whatever), after which an incompetent bahai religion will take over the world for somewhere between 1,000 and 500,000 years (give or take a week or two).

    I do not think that any of the legitimate world-peace movements or organizations or philosophers think that bahais are capable of making a contribution that will actually accomplish much of anything.

    When they look at bahai, they see distortionary apologetics and polemics, not a sane, balanced world perspective.

    Quoting Ken Wilber (from my previous post in this thread):

    —Ken Wilber—

    For the same reasons, I personally believe that any protest movement that does not equally protest both America’s invasion and Saddam’s murder of 400,000 people is a protest movement that does not truly represent peace or non-aggression or worldcentric values.

    I am aware of no major protest movement that has protested both forms of violence equally, and that has insisted upon an immediate end to both aggressions, and offered a believable way that both aggressions could actually be halted immediately so that neither side can continue its homicidal actions.

    That is, I am aware of no integral protest movement anywhere in the world, unfortunately.

    There are instead mainly pockets of blue, orange, and green values, all at each others’ throats.

    —end excerpt—

    Blue = Premodern
    Orange = Modernist
    Green = Postmodern

    In a letter written en behalf of the UHJ to a bahai scholar (Susan Maneck) several years ago, the letter instructed bahai scholars to “contribute” to “integrative paradigms” being developed in the world (by non-bahais).

    I don’t know if the UHJ actually knew what the stuff written on their behalf meant, but as far as I know, no major form of bahai integrative/integral scholarship has been developing.

    So, we have another example of incompetent bahais in leadership and their supporters (scholar’s organizations in this case) not even doing what the UHJ instructs them to do.

    [quote comment="54052"]I object to your spinning for what he clearly said. He told Bahais to shut up and let the US do what it wants because the US government is blessed in the Bahai writings, so to him it gets a blank check from God. This is what I clearly read, Craig reads, EP reads and others here. But YOU have to make it a statement about not getting involved in politics. Why? Is it because you are afraid to believe that hey a mortal man with really bad ideas could have made it to ranks of the UHJ? You are the one with a bias. I already stated that I would always give respect where its due, but if someone says something stupid, then I will refute it- even if its a member of the UHJ. You on the otherhand have your agenda..
    Oh and as to your last question, I already gave you the answer in a previous post. If Mr. Mitchell had merely wanted to make that fact that we should not get involved in partisan politics, then he could have made it in a more neutral way. He didn’t because that’s not what he was saying.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]so everything you said about having �an axe to grind� doesn’t make any sense;
    —————-
    Tell that to a number of people who’ve been pushed out, dropped from the rolls or had voting rights removed for expressing their opinions. The stories are all online and yes many of them show instances where individuals of the AO have gottne up in front of Bahai crowds and seeded the idea that these are “enemies” within. Of course, those are all ok in your warped mind where you have to protect at any cost.[/quote]

  • Annonymouz

    More un-informed comments EP…You should really look to others outside of your circle of bitter buddies for proof of what you speak of. Your comments are thematically and fundamentally flawed–not to mention seriously hell bent on damaging and discrediting.

  • Annonymouz

    More un-informed comments EP…You should really look to others outside of your circle of bitter buddies for proof of what you speak of. Your comments are thematically and fundamentally flawed–not to mention seriously hell bent on damaging and discrediting.

  • p

    Nue said it best a few posts ago:
    “I think it is simply attachment to what these people hold dear. When someone you love or someone you idealize says or does something that is so contrary to human dignity and decency, most peoples’ first reaction is to try to defend them, and say they were were misunderstood, or the sources of information are ’shaky’, etc.”

  • p

    Nue said it best a few posts ago:
    “I think it is simply attachment to what these people hold dear. When someone you love or someone you idealize says or does something that is so contrary to human dignity and decency, most peoples’ first reaction is to try to defend them, and say they were were misunderstood, or the sources of information are ’shaky’, etc.”

  • p

    I meant “Nur”. Sorry typed too fast.

  • p

    I meant “Nur”. Sorry typed too fast.

  • ep

    Are you taking about significant praise for bahai accomplishments from the world peace movement?

    Yes, please let me know if it exists (beyond warm, fuzzy, self-selving, feel good blather).

    What I did was look outside the usual echo-chamber of bahai rhetoric. Founds lots of interesting stuff. Talked about it with bahais. Most of them were disinteredted in a purposeful way, in spite of scripture saying to keep current with “non-bahai” science/philosophy. The few that were interested with stuff not from the bahai echo-chamber were attacked, usually viciously, by the conformist “leadership” clique.

    narrow-minded. inflexible, orthodox fanatics, bahai apologists and polemicists, such as yourself, are the underlying cause of damage.

    lies, injustice, deception, tyranny, stoooopidness and backwardness should be damaged and discredited whenever possible, especially after 80+ years of facts have accumulated that clearly demonstrate an organizational culture that is “fundamentally” dysfunctional, is “hell bent” on reversing civilization and imposing cultural imperialism on the rest of the world, and encourages bullying of nonconformists, dissidents and critics.

    your distortions, lies and insults are boring, tedious and pointless, but have a wonderful day anyway. hopefully someone is praying for you at the shrines.

    [quote comment="54058"]More un-informed comments EP…You should really look to others outside of your circle of bitter buddies for proof of what you speak of. Your comments are thematically and fundamentally flawed–not to mention seriously hell bent on damaging and discrediting.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]I meant “Nur”. Sorry typed too fast.[/quote]

  • ep

    Are you taking about significant praise for bahai accomplishments from the world peace movement?

    Yes, please let me know if it exists (beyond warm, fuzzy, self-selving, feel good blather).

    What I did was look outside the usual echo-chamber of bahai rhetoric. Founds lots of interesting stuff. Talked about it with bahais. Most of them were disinteredted in a purposeful way, in spite of scripture saying to keep current with “non-bahai” science/philosophy. The few that were interested with stuff not from the bahai echo-chamber were attacked, usually viciously, by the conformist “leadership” clique.

    narrow-minded. inflexible, orthodox fanatics, bahai apologists and polemicists, such as yourself, are the underlying cause of damage.

    lies, injustice, deception, tyranny, stoooopidness and backwardness should be damaged and discredited whenever possible, especially after 80+ years of facts have accumulated that clearly demonstrate an organizational culture that is “fundamentally” dysfunctional, is “hell bent” on reversing civilization and imposing cultural imperialism on the rest of the world, and encourages bullying of nonconformists, dissidents and critics.

    your distortions, lies and insults are boring, tedious and pointless, but have a wonderful day anyway. hopefully someone is praying for you at the shrines.

    [quote comment="54058"]More un-informed comments EP…You should really look to others outside of your circle of bitter buddies for proof of what you speak of. Your comments are thematically and fundamentally flawed–not to mention seriously hell bent on damaging and discrediting.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]I meant “Nur”. Sorry typed too fast.[/quote]

  • p

    You know. all this makes me think back to the days of when I was one of those like Masud (well not that extreme). But I recall a number of times when I would feel uncomfortable listening to some grand Bahai speaker or another. But I kept my mouth shut. I wonder how many others in those audiences felt like me- who just wanted to stand up and shout- hey that’s not the Faith I believe! No one ever did because the culture in the Bahai community does not allow it. All you ever heard from where the ones who cood over said speakers.

  • p

    You know. all this makes me think back to the days of when I was one of those like Masud (well not that extreme). But I recall a number of times when I would feel uncomfortable listening to some grand Bahai speaker or another. But I kept my mouth shut. I wonder how many others in those audiences felt like me- who just wanted to stand up and shout- hey that’s not the Faith I believe! No one ever did because the culture in the Bahai community does not allow it. All you ever heard from where the ones who cood over said speakers.

  • ep

    p,

    may you be blessed with truth, beauty, light and goodness.

    as you probably know, what usually happens to sick people like AnonZZZ is that he will either continue down the path toward becoming a fullblown bahai fascist member of the elite dysfunctional AO, or if he eventually gets in touch with the inner child pain caused by being brainwashed by bahai family/community (etc.), a severe need for mental health services, or some kind of psychological healing process will manifest.

    fundamentalists need order and structure to deal with the cognitive dissonance that arises when their narrow views and beliefs collide with larger realities.

    Obama: “they cling to guns and religion”.

    in the case of bahai fanatics, “guns” aren’t usually real guns, instead it is ritualized violence directed toward any nonconformist, dissident or critic.

    bye!
    Eric P.
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="54060"] [Nur] said it best a few posts ago:
    “I think it is simply attachment to what these people hold dear. When someone you love or someone you idealize says or does something that is so contrary to human dignity and decency, most peoples’ first reaction is to try to defend them, and say they were were misunderstood, or the sources of information are ’shaky’, etc.”[/quote]

  • ep

    p,

    may you be blessed with truth, beauty, light and goodness.

    as you probably know, what usually happens to sick people like AnonZZZ is that he will either continue down the path toward becoming a fullblown bahai fascist member of the elite dysfunctional AO, or if he eventually gets in touch with the inner child pain caused by being brainwashed by bahai family/community (etc.), a severe need for mental health services, or some kind of psychological healing process will manifest.

    fundamentalists need order and structure to deal with the cognitive dissonance that arises when their narrow views and beliefs collide with larger realities.

    Obama: “they cling to guns and religion”.

    in the case of bahai fanatics, “guns” aren’t usually real guns, instead it is ritualized violence directed toward any nonconformist, dissident or critic.

    bye!
    Eric P.
    Sacramento

    [quote comment="54060"] [Nur] said it best a few posts ago:
    “I think it is simply attachment to what these people hold dear. When someone you love or someone you idealize says or does something that is so contrary to human dignity and decency, most peoples’ first reaction is to try to defend them, and say they were were misunderstood, or the sources of information are ’shaky’, etc.”[/quote]

  • p

    Well EP, I don’t know what will happen to Anon or Masud or their likes. But more than likely they will continue to muddle through the Bahai community even if they ever get some serious doubts, because by the time any serious doubts set in they will already have been vested in the community (marriage, kids, position in the LSA etc. etc.). It’s a lot harder to get up and go when you have responsibilites weighing you down. God granted me a different course in life- one where I would NEVER take one of his names in vain.(Masa’il-Questions)

  • p

    Well EP, I don’t know what will happen to Anon or Masud or their likes. But more than likely they will continue to muddle through the Bahai community even if they ever get some serious doubts, because by the time any serious doubts set in they will already have been vested in the community (marriage, kids, position in the LSA etc. etc.). It’s a lot harder to get up and go when you have responsibilites weighing you down. God granted me a different course in life- one where I would NEVER take one of his names in vain.(Masa’il-Questions)

  • Anonymouz

    Wow EP and P.

    I do not know what to say. I thought there was a shred of true intellect left in you both, but as your statements allude–apparently not. It is so ironic EP that you use such harsh language to describe something you obviously hate. I feel a lot of that comming from you–hate. You really leave me speechless at the spectacle of ego and sheer distortion.

    I can only say I am thankful that honest people who have the ability to think for themselves, instead of propping themselves up with self justifying views, know that you are nothing. Ya…Nothing.

    I would say have a nice day—but with your soul in such a state I would say that would be impossible. So…I am going to take my son to the park and kick the soccer ball around. Have fun on your KKK websites.

  • Anonymouz

    Wow EP and P.

    I do not know what to say. I thought there was a shred of true intellect left in you both, but as your statements allude–apparently not. It is so ironic EP that you use such harsh language to describe something you obviously hate. I feel a lot of that comming from you–hate. You really leave me speechless at the spectacle of ego and sheer distortion.

    I can only say I am thankful that honest people who have the ability to think for themselves, instead of propping themselves up with self justifying views, know that you are nothing. Ya…Nothing.

    I would say have a nice day—but with your soul in such a state I would say that would be impossible. So…I am going to take my son to the park and kick the soccer ball around. Have fun on your KKK websites.

  • Concourse on Low

    Anonymouz wrote: You too CoL fail to admit and just simply hide in the mental cave from the light. Mr. Mitchell, while respected just like other Baha’i notables, holds no authority. If someones talk is FULL of quotations and references to the writings—that makes it authoritative.

    You’ve now fully discredited yourself with this reply to my comment about the distinction between de jure and de facto authority.

    Dude, seriously, I’ve been where you are right now. The neurotic compulsion to defend everything about the Faith, arrogantly and blindly, doing all sorts of conceptual acrobatics, repressing, through fervent prayer, the inevitable cognitive dissoance and feeling of nausea that crops up from all the duplicity and self deception.

    You can extricate your head from the lower regions of your gastrointestinal region. How? Through complete honesty with yourself.

  • Concourse on Low

    Anonymouz wrote: You too CoL fail to admit and just simply hide in the mental cave from the light. Mr. Mitchell, while respected just like other Baha’i notables, holds no authority. If someones talk is FULL of quotations and references to the writings—that makes it authoritative.

    You’ve now fully discredited yourself with this reply to my comment about the distinction between de jure and de facto authority.

    Dude, seriously, I’ve been where you are right now. The neurotic compulsion to defend everything about the Faith, arrogantly and blindly, doing all sorts of conceptual acrobatics, repressing, through fervent prayer, the inevitable cognitive dissoance and feeling of nausea that crops up from all the duplicity and self deception.

    You can extricate your head from the lower regions of your gastrointestinal region. How? Through complete honesty with yourself.

  • ep

    AnonZZZ,

    Profound disgust and revulsion at the lies and injustices that have become normal parts of dysfunctional bahai culture (and interaction with fascists like you) would be the correct meaning, but as usual, you are distorting things horribly to suit your narrow-minded, rut-zombie mentality. Which shows once again the vile, despicable lying parrot and bully that you are.

    squak, squak, squak. drivel, drivel, drivel. lies, lies, lies.

    You are too weak and cowardly to engage in the kind of painful, unvarnished self-examination it takes to lead an enlightened life of truth and goodness, free from the slavery of predigested, conformist thinking.

    As such, you are a perfect microcosm of the fundamentalist sickness, pathology and paradigm regression that grips most of bahai culture. (“gravity well of shiism”)

    bahai culture is almost entirely devoid of any historical memory of the important events that led to the formation of such institutionalized regression. pathological institutional bahai monoculture has been self-reinforcing itself for so long that people’s spirits are crushed into conformity as a normal feature of bahai life. no protest, no deviation, no dissent. of any meaningful kind. once the very process of creating and remembering meaningful events in their daily life is taken away from people, the result is always dehumanized group think, thought policing and bullying. and eventually institutional degeneracy and abject failure.

    The massive amd overwhelming disconnect between the noble rhetoric of bahai belief and the actual (spiritually crushing) reality of bahai culture and its corrupt AO is nothing short of Kafkaesque.

    I hope you find a very good therapist that will help you deal with your dishonesty, weaknesses and pain.

    [quote comment="54069"]Wow EP and P.

    I do not know what to say. I thought there was a shred of true intellect left in you both, but as your statements allude–apparently not. It is so ironic EP that you use such harsh language to describe something you obviously hate. I feel a lot of that comming from you–hate. You really leave me speechless at the spectacle of ego and sheer distortion.

    I can only say I am thankful that honest people who have the ability to think for themselves, instead of propping themselves up with self justifying views, know that you are nothing. Ya…Nothing.

    I would say have a nice day—but with your soul in such a state I would say that would be impossible. So…I am going to take my son to the park and kick the soccer ball around. Have fun on your KKK websites.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Anonymouz wrote: You too CoL fail to admit and just simply hide in the mental cave from the light. Mr. Mitchell, while respected just like other Baha’i notables, holds no authority. If someones talk is FULL of quotations and references to the writings—that makes it authoritative.

    You’ve now fully discredited yourself with this reply to my comment about the distinction between de jure and de facto authority.

    Dude, seriously, I’ve been where you are right now. The neurotic compulsion to defend everything about the Faith, arrogantly and blindly, doing all sorts of conceptual acrobatics, repressing, through fervent prayer, the inevitable cognitive dissoance and feeling of nausea that crops up from all the duplicity and self deception.

    You can extricate your head from the lower regions of your gastrointestinal region. How? Through complete honesty with yourself.[/quote]

  • ep

    AnonZZZ,

    Profound disgust and revulsion at the lies and injustices that have become normal parts of dysfunctional bahai culture (and interaction with fascists like you) would be the correct meaning, but as usual, you are distorting things horribly to suit your narrow-minded, rut-zombie mentality. Which shows once again the vile, despicable lying parrot and bully that you are.

    squak, squak, squak. drivel, drivel, drivel. lies, lies, lies.

    You are too weak and cowardly to engage in the kind of painful, unvarnished self-examination it takes to lead an enlightened life of truth and goodness, free from the slavery of predigested, conformist thinking.

    As such, you are a perfect microcosm of the fundamentalist sickness, pathology and paradigm regression that grips most of bahai culture. (“gravity well of shiism”)

    bahai culture is almost entirely devoid of any historical memory of the important events that led to the formation of such institutionalized regression. pathological institutional bahai monoculture has been self-reinforcing itself for so long that people’s spirits are crushed into conformity as a normal feature of bahai life. no protest, no deviation, no dissent. of any meaningful kind. once the very process of creating and remembering meaningful events in their daily life is taken away from people, the result is always dehumanized group think, thought policing and bullying. and eventually institutional degeneracy and abject failure.

    The massive amd overwhelming disconnect between the noble rhetoric of bahai belief and the actual (spiritually crushing) reality of bahai culture and its corrupt AO is nothing short of Kafkaesque.

    I hope you find a very good therapist that will help you deal with your dishonesty, weaknesses and pain.

    [quote comment="54069"]Wow EP and P.

    I do not know what to say. I thought there was a shred of true intellect left in you both, but as your statements allude–apparently not. It is so ironic EP that you use such harsh language to describe something you obviously hate. I feel a lot of that comming from you–hate. You really leave me speechless at the spectacle of ego and sheer distortion.

    I can only say I am thankful that honest people who have the ability to think for themselves, instead of propping themselves up with self justifying views, know that you are nothing. Ya…Nothing.

    I would say have a nice day—but with your soul in such a state I would say that would be impossible. So…I am going to take my son to the park and kick the soccer ball around. Have fun on your KKK websites.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Anonymouz wrote: You too CoL fail to admit and just simply hide in the mental cave from the light. Mr. Mitchell, while respected just like other Baha’i notables, holds no authority. If someones talk is FULL of quotations and references to the writings—that makes it authoritative.

    You’ve now fully discredited yourself with this reply to my comment about the distinction between de jure and de facto authority.

    Dude, seriously, I’ve been where you are right now. The neurotic compulsion to defend everything about the Faith, arrogantly and blindly, doing all sorts of conceptual acrobatics, repressing, through fervent prayer, the inevitable cognitive dissoance and feeling of nausea that crops up from all the duplicity and self deception.

    You can extricate your head from the lower regions of your gastrointestinal region. How? Through complete honesty with yourself.[/quote]

  • ep

    AnonZZZ,

    in case you don’t know about it, here is a good start:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

    [quote comment="54072"]
    AnonZZZ,

    I hope you find a very good therapist …

    [quote comment="54069"]

    I do not know what to say.

    [/quote]
    [quote comment=""]
    Dude, seriously, I’ve been where you are right now. The neurotic compulsion to defend everything about the Faith, arrogantly and blindly, doing all sorts of conceptual acrobatics, repressing, through fervent prayer, the inevitable cognitive dissoance and feeling of nausea that crops up from all the duplicity and self deception.

    [/quote]

  • ep

    AnonZZZ,

    in case you don’t know about it, here is a good start:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

    [quote comment="54072"]
    AnonZZZ,

    I hope you find a very good therapist …

    [quote comment="54069"]

    I do not know what to say.

    [/quote]
    [quote comment=""]
    Dude, seriously, I’ve been where you are right now. The neurotic compulsion to defend everything about the Faith, arrogantly and blindly, doing all sorts of conceptual acrobatics, repressing, through fervent prayer, the inevitable cognitive dissoance and feeling of nausea that crops up from all the duplicity and self deception.

    [/quote]

  • ep

    p,

    may you be blessed with truth, beauty, light and goodness.

    speaking of marriage, my wife is a non-bahai, and is a national from a spanish-speaking dominant country.

    I was amazed at how many insults she got from bahais, and some really nasty ones from spanish-speaking bahais, about not having converted to bahai. This was when I made the mistake of taking her to a number of bahai meetings when we were first married. generally speaking, both liberal and conservative bahais are incredibly insensitive about the beliefs and traditions of non-bahai spouses, but if somewhat different ways.

    in general spanish-speaking bahais are somewhat less fanatical than american bahais, but unfortunately we came across some horrible exceptions.

    One of the final reasons I started thinking about resigning was when I realized that my children would get a very bad education about religion and spirituality if I took them to bahai children’s classes run by bahai fanatics and conformists. Sad.

    Regards,
    Eric P.

    [quote comment="54067"]Well EP, I don’t know what will happen to Anon or Masud or their likes. But more than likely they will continue to muddle through the Bahai community even if they ever get some serious doubts, because by the time any serious doubts set in they will already have been vested in the community (marriage, kids, position in the LSA etc. etc.). It’s a lot harder to get up and go when you have responsibilites weighing you down. God granted me a different course in life- one where I would NEVER take one of his names in vain.(Masa’il-Questions)[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]AnonZZZ,

    in case you don’t know about it, here is a good start:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

    [quote comment="54072"]
    AnonZZZ,

    I hope you find a very good therapist …

    [quote comment="54069"]

    I do not know what to say.

    [/quote]
    [quote comment=""]
    Dude, seriously, I’ve been where you are right now. The neurotic compulsion to defend everything about the Faith, arrogantly and blindly, doing all sorts of conceptual acrobatics, repressing, through fervent prayer, the inevitable cognitive dissoance and feeling of nausea that crops up from all the duplicity and self deception.

    [/quote][/quote]

  • ep

    p,

    may you be blessed with truth, beauty, light and goodness.

    speaking of marriage, my wife is a non-bahai, and is a national from a spanish-speaking dominant country.

    I was amazed at how many insults she got from bahais, and some really nasty ones from spanish-speaking bahais, about not having converted to bahai. This was when I made the mistake of taking her to a number of bahai meetings when we were first married. generally speaking, both liberal and conservative bahais are incredibly insensitive about the beliefs and traditions of non-bahai spouses, but if somewhat different ways.

    in general spanish-speaking bahais are somewhat less fanatical than american bahais, but unfortunately we came across some horrible exceptions.

    One of the final reasons I started thinking about resigning was when I realized that my children would get a very bad education about religion and spirituality if I took them to bahai children’s classes run by bahai fanatics and conformists. Sad.

    Regards,
    Eric P.

    [quote comment="54067"]Well EP, I don’t know what will happen to Anon or Masud or their likes. But more than likely they will continue to muddle through the Bahai community even if they ever get some serious doubts, because by the time any serious doubts set in they will already have been vested in the community (marriage, kids, position in the LSA etc. etc.). It’s a lot harder to get up and go when you have responsibilites weighing you down. God granted me a different course in life- one where I would NEVER take one of his names in vain.(Masa’il-Questions)[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]AnonZZZ,

    in case you don’t know about it, here is a good start:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

    [quote comment="54072"]
    AnonZZZ,

    I hope you find a very good therapist …

    [quote comment="54069"]

    I do not know what to say.

    [/quote]
    [quote comment=""]
    Dude, seriously, I’ve been where you are right now. The neurotic compulsion to defend everything about the Faith, arrogantly and blindly, doing all sorts of conceptual acrobatics, repressing, through fervent prayer, the inevitable cognitive dissoance and feeling of nausea that crops up from all the duplicity and self deception.

    [/quote][/quote]

  • Grover

    Hi Anon,

    [quote post="507"]Mr. Mitchell, while respected just like other Baha’i notables, holds no authority.[/quote]

    UHJ member, former or present = instant authority and adoration.

    [quote post="507"]If someones talk is FULL of quotations and references to the writings—that makes it authoritative.[/quote]

    So if someone who was looney came along spouting a pile of crap full of quotations and references to the writings, you would follow them without question?

  • Grover

    Hi Anon,

    [quote post="507"]Mr. Mitchell, while respected just like other Baha’i notables, holds no authority.[/quote]

    UHJ member, former or present = instant authority and adoration.

    [quote post="507"]If someones talk is FULL of quotations and references to the writings—that makes it authoritative.[/quote]

    So if someone who was looney came along spouting a pile of crap full of quotations and references to the writings, you would follow them without question?

  • p

    Guys what’s amazing is that I probably share more with Anon than I do with you guys. I don’t hate the Bahai Faith. I don’t think the AO is a totally corrupt body. BUT, I do believe in justice (the greatest thing in God’s eyes). So for people like Anon to try to justify a very blatant political statement from Mitchell that goes completely against the Faith I believe in, well it’s just BS. What I still don’t understand is IF Mr. Mitchell is just expressing his personal view and it has no authority, then why, why try to distort and defend it until you are blue in the face? Why not at the very least just say, “well you are possibly correct in how this statement is offensive. We’d have to ask Mr. Mitchell to explain himself.” Because it all goes back to what Nur said, these people DON’T just think this man was merely speakni for himself. They do have a hidden adoration for anyone on the UHJ, so they can’t imagine for a second that they are human beings that can say stupid things.

  • p

    Guys what’s amazing is that I probably share more with Anon than I do with you guys. I don’t hate the Bahai Faith. I don’t think the AO is a totally corrupt body. BUT, I do believe in justice (the greatest thing in God’s eyes). So for people like Anon to try to justify a very blatant political statement from Mitchell that goes completely against the Faith I believe in, well it’s just BS. What I still don’t understand is IF Mr. Mitchell is just expressing his personal view and it has no authority, then why, why try to distort and defend it until you are blue in the face? Why not at the very least just say, “well you are possibly correct in how this statement is offensive. We’d have to ask Mr. Mitchell to explain himself.” Because it all goes back to what Nur said, these people DON’T just think this man was merely speakni for himself. They do have a hidden adoration for anyone on the UHJ, so they can’t imagine for a second that they are human beings that can say stupid things.

  • Grover

    Hi P, its more than just a hidden adoration, its blatant and open. Its a product of Eastern cultures where people respect the position, even if the person occupying it is a complete arse. Whereas in the West, we tend to respect the person if its warranted and ignore the titles. I noticed it particularly on my year of service where most westerners were falling foul of people in charge because we weren’t giving them proper respect because the people were complete twats, but the easterners were duly fawning and respectful. Its a theme that comes through over and over again in the Faith. The moment someone is an Assistant, ABM or Counsellor, or towards an LSA, NSA etc, we have to be duly respectful and pretend they’re possessed with divine inspiration, even if the people in those roles are thick as bricks and couldn’t divinely inspire their way out of a paper bag. This is were I think eastern and western cultures clash badly, we tend to be pragmatic, ignore the titles and go with what works, but the easterners just don’t have that way of thinking and so they think we’re being disrespectful when we’re just calling it as we see it.

  • Grover

    Hi P, its more than just a hidden adoration, its blatant and open. Its a product of Eastern cultures where people respect the position, even if the person occupying it is a complete arse. Whereas in the West, we tend to respect the person if its warranted and ignore the titles. I noticed it particularly on my year of service where most westerners were falling foul of people in charge because we weren’t giving them proper respect because the people were complete twats, but the easterners were duly fawning and respectful. Its a theme that comes through over and over again in the Faith. The moment someone is an Assistant, ABM or Counsellor, or towards an LSA, NSA etc, we have to be duly respectful and pretend they’re possessed with divine inspiration, even if the people in those roles are thick as bricks and couldn’t divinely inspire their way out of a paper bag. This is were I think eastern and western cultures clash badly, we tend to be pragmatic, ignore the titles and go with what works, but the easterners just don’t have that way of thinking and so they think we’re being disrespectful when we’re just calling it as we see it.

  • Grover

    Lol Masud, learn your geography. Latin America is not Eastern.

    I think a natural distrust of people in positions of authority giving authoritative statements is healthy. Respect should be earned, not given automatically as a right. I believe the “corrupted” western attitude to authority is much more sensible and pragmatic.

  • Grover

    Lol Masud, learn your geography. Latin America is not Eastern.

    I think a natural distrust of people in positions of authority giving authoritative statements is healthy. Respect should be earned, not given automatically as a right. I believe the “corrupted” western attitude to authority is much more sensible and pragmatic.

  • ep

    real unity is not what bahai is about. bahai is false unity, dumbed down unity, etc.

    “real unity” requires honesty and truth, both of which are too painful for backward, fake, dissembling “eastern” religions like bahai to come to terms with.

    Simon Bolivar said that democracy would not work in south america because the racial factions had to fight each other for dominance. The legacy of french-spanish politics is of course as messed up in latin america as it is/was in france and spain. france-spain took the “romanticist” route, and ended up with first fascism, then marxism. regression, regression, regression.

    the (alleged) bahai “solution” to abuse of authority clearly does NOT work (is mired in “paradigm regression” to premodernist assumptions, has become conformist/dysfunctional as per a vast amount of evidence cited on this blog and elsewhere over the last 15 years of “western” freedom of expression on the internet), and is out of touch with the trajectory of the leading edge of cultural evolution.

    the real problem is that traditional metaphysics (such as bahai) are outdated and discredited, and need to be replaced with a system that fully integrates science (developmental “stage” theory) and spirituality.

    bahai metaphysics flubs the whole test because it is screwed up with respect to evolutionary theory, and can’t keep up with the leading edge of cognitive and linguistic theory.

    anyone that actually cares about progress and “ever advancing civilization” would never propose bahai “theory” as a way to understand the leading edge of evolution or social change (much less “abuse of authority”).

    infallibility is a stupid, backward joke.

    integral theory (Sri Aurobindo, Jean Gebser, Ken Wilber, etc.) explains western “materialism” is a much more coherent way than does bahai scripture/theory.

    bahai scripture, including shoghi effendi (french-catholic schooling), is full of unsupportable, culturally imperialistic, and extremely unsophisticated assumptions about what “western” culture consisted of 50 to 100 years ago.

    The UHJ has not saved (redeemed or updated) bahai scriptural regression and culturally incorrect perspectives since the 60s, it has just tried to keep all that stuff alive in the face of a world that keeps changing and evolving in ways that bahai scripture is totally incapable of predicting or adapting to.

    bahai theory is a ridiculous dinosaur that can’t stand being scrutinized in the light of day.

    [quote comment="54118"]Grover,

    I’m not talking about geography, I’m talking about culture. As Latin America has many pre-Western influences, it is safe to say it is not the West.

    How can that possibly be healthy? Do you want to live in a world where there is only distrust? I think the problem is that in the West people try to adapt their beliefs or belief system to their culture, whereas the opposite should be happening. Craig has done this, p has done this (to a lesser extent) and you Grover are the poster child for it.

    The solution to the problem of overstepping one’s authority and abusing power is ALREADY in the Baha’i Faith; to mix in distrust can only be detrimental to the fundamental principle of unity.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Grover,

    I’m not talking about geography, I’m talking about culture. As Latin America has many pre-Western influences, it is safe to say it is not the West.

    How can that possibly be healthy? Do you want to live in a world where there is only distrust? I think the problem is that in the West people try to adapt their beliefs or belief system to their culture, whereas the opposite should be happening. Craig has done this, p has done this (to a lesser extent) and you Grover are the poster child for it.

    The solution to the problem of overstepping one’s authority and abusing power is ALREADY in the Baha’i Faith; to mix in distrust can only be detrimental to the fundamental principle of unity.[/quote]

  • ep

    real unity is not what bahai is about. bahai is false unity, dumbed down unity, etc.

    “real unity” requires honesty and truth, both of which are too painful for backward, fake, dissembling “eastern” religions like bahai to come to terms with.

    Simon Bolivar said that democracy would not work in south america because the racial factions had to fight each other for dominance. The legacy of french-spanish politics is of course as messed up in latin america as it is/was in france and spain. france-spain took the “romanticist” route, and ended up with first fascism, then marxism. regression, regression, regression.

    the (alleged) bahai “solution” to abuse of authority clearly does NOT work (is mired in “paradigm regression” to premodernist assumptions, has become conformist/dysfunctional as per a vast amount of evidence cited on this blog and elsewhere over the last 15 years of “western” freedom of expression on the internet), and is out of touch with the trajectory of the leading edge of cultural evolution.

    the real problem is that traditional metaphysics (such as bahai) are outdated and discredited, and need to be replaced with a system that fully integrates science (developmental “stage” theory) and spirituality.

    bahai metaphysics flubs the whole test because it is screwed up with respect to evolutionary theory, and can’t keep up with the leading edge of cognitive and linguistic theory.

    anyone that actually cares about progress and “ever advancing civilization” would never propose bahai “theory” as a way to understand the leading edge of evolution or social change (much less “abuse of authority”).

    infallibility is a stupid, backward joke.

    integral theory (Sri Aurobindo, Jean Gebser, Ken Wilber, etc.) explains western “materialism” is a much more coherent way than does bahai scripture/theory.

    bahai scripture, including shoghi effendi (french-catholic schooling), is full of unsupportable, culturally imperialistic, and extremely unsophisticated assumptions about what “western” culture consisted of 50 to 100 years ago.

    The UHJ has not saved (redeemed or updated) bahai scriptural regression and culturally incorrect perspectives since the 60s, it has just tried to keep all that stuff alive in the face of a world that keeps changing and evolving in ways that bahai scripture is totally incapable of predicting or adapting to.

    bahai theory is a ridiculous dinosaur that can’t stand being scrutinized in the light of day.

    [quote comment="54118"]Grover,

    I’m not talking about geography, I’m talking about culture. As Latin America has many pre-Western influences, it is safe to say it is not the West.

    How can that possibly be healthy? Do you want to live in a world where there is only distrust? I think the problem is that in the West people try to adapt their beliefs or belief system to their culture, whereas the opposite should be happening. Craig has done this, p has done this (to a lesser extent) and you Grover are the poster child for it.

    The solution to the problem of overstepping one’s authority and abusing power is ALREADY in the Baha’i Faith; to mix in distrust can only be detrimental to the fundamental principle of unity.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Grover,

    I’m not talking about geography, I’m talking about culture. As Latin America has many pre-Western influences, it is safe to say it is not the West.

    How can that possibly be healthy? Do you want to live in a world where there is only distrust? I think the problem is that in the West people try to adapt their beliefs or belief system to their culture, whereas the opposite should be happening. Craig has done this, p has done this (to a lesser extent) and you Grover are the poster child for it.

    The solution to the problem of overstepping one’s authority and abusing power is ALREADY in the Baha’i Faith; to mix in distrust can only be detrimental to the fundamental principle of unity.[/quote]

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="54118"]
    Masud wrote:

    Grover,

    I’m not talking about geography, I’m talking about culture. As Latin America has many pre-Western influences, it is safe to say it is not the West.

    How can that possibly be healthy? Do you want to live in a world where there is only distrust? I think the problem is that in the West people try to adapt their beliefs or belief system to their culture, whereas the opposite should be happening. Craig has done this, p has done this (to a lesser extent) and you Grover are the poster child for it.

    The solution to the problem of overstepping one’s authority and abusing power is ALREADY in the Baha’i Faith; to mix in distrust can only be detrimental to the fundamental principle of unity.[/quote]

    Masud,

    I am not promoting distrust at all. I was as dedicated a Baha’i as you could ever find for 32 straight years up until 4 years ago. I never complained and never had a bad word to say about anyone. I completely trusted these people to be competent and do their jobs. But now late in life I have had enough. I speak on behalf of full total accountability as I prepare to leave this world on the shorter side of life. I now fully believe that there can be no justice nor competence in this world without full accountability.

    That BAO can start the example by living by clear, transparent, full accountability in every dealing and undertaking. No excuses. Baha’u’llah gave the rank and file the vote. The Interent is now the vehicel where every person on Earth IS potentially the editorial department of the New York Times for the next 1,000 years. The Baha’is of the world should start using THE VOTE as the FIERCE WEAPON it was intended to be on behalf of future generations.

    As a student of human history I do recognize that it may be necessary that we go through a period where the Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith completely and utterly embarrasses itself hour by hour for a another full centrury or more under the glare of the Internet. This documented sorry record of organizational entrenched dysfunctional mental illness may yet bear much fruit in future very useful psychological theories of organizational dysfunction. In no way do I rule out this not being a very valuable contribution to the evolution of the human race. The Abrahamic religions have been a veritable gold mine in the study of organizational dysfunction and entrenched mental illness with no accountability at all for centuries. Se we, as Baha’is, may also be making valuable on-going contributions to this body of human experience. So I do acknowledge that in the end it may still be useful.

    The only refuge for any organization on Earth now of whatever ilk with the rise of the public Internet is justice, competence, and full accountability with no exceptions whatsoever. Only these honest qualities can bring immunity. This is especially true for any organization that purports to be the future government of the world.

    In the Baha’i Faith of the future there will surely eventually be term limits at every level because such service will not be for either fools or the faint hearted. People will drop like flies from heart attacks after 10 years of the stress. There will be no 40 year careeres in the future. The ruthless accountability will be 24/7/365/1000.

    The Promised Day Has Come where every hidden thing will be made public. And that includes a person’s mind bending dysfunction and incompetence in high office in any organization anywhere on Earth including the Baha’i Faith.

    I preach the World Age. I preach the New Day.

    These are the new watch words that will change the world:

    “Stupid is as stupid does” – Forest Gump

    “Duh” – Homer Simpson

    Everyone have a nice weekend!

    Craig

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="54118"]
    Masud wrote:

    Grover,

    I’m not talking about geography, I’m talking about culture. As Latin America has many pre-Western influences, it is safe to say it is not the West.

    How can that possibly be healthy? Do you want to live in a world where there is only distrust? I think the problem is that in the West people try to adapt their beliefs or belief system to their culture, whereas the opposite should be happening. Craig has done this, p has done this (to a lesser extent) and you Grover are the poster child for it.

    The solution to the problem of overstepping one’s authority and abusing power is ALREADY in the Baha’i Faith; to mix in distrust can only be detrimental to the fundamental principle of unity.[/quote]

    Masud,

    I am not promoting distrust at all. I was as dedicated a Baha’i as you could ever find for 32 straight years up until 4 years ago. I never complained and never had a bad word to say about anyone. I completely trusted these people to be competent and do their jobs. But now late in life I have had enough. I speak on behalf of full total accountability as I prepare to leave this world on the shorter side of life. I now fully believe that there can be no justice nor competence in this world without full accountability.

    That BAO can start the example by living by clear, transparent, full accountability in every dealing and undertaking. No excuses. Baha’u’llah gave the rank and file the vote. The Interent is now the vehicel where every person on Earth IS potentially the editorial department of the New York Times for the next 1,000 years. The Baha’is of the world should start using THE VOTE as the FIERCE WEAPON it was intended to be on behalf of future generations.

    As a student of human history I do recognize that it may be necessary that we go through a period where the Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith completely and utterly embarrasses itself hour by hour for a another full centrury or more under the glare of the Internet. This documented sorry record of organizational entrenched dysfunctional mental illness may yet bear much fruit in future very useful psychological theories of organizational dysfunction. In no way do I rule out this not being a very valuable contribution to the evolution of the human race. The Abrahamic religions have been a veritable gold mine in the study of organizational dysfunction and entrenched mental illness with no accountability at all for centuries. Se we, as Baha’is, may also be making valuable on-going contributions to this body of human experience. So I do acknowledge that in the end it may still be useful.

    The only refuge for any organization on Earth now of whatever ilk with the rise of the public Internet is justice, competence, and full accountability with no exceptions whatsoever. Only these honest qualities can bring immunity. This is especially true for any organization that purports to be the future government of the world.

    In the Baha’i Faith of the future there will surely eventually be term limits at every level because such service will not be for either fools or the faint hearted. People will drop like flies from heart attacks after 10 years of the stress. There will be no 40 year careeres in the future. The ruthless accountability will be 24/7/365/1000.

    The Promised Day Has Come where every hidden thing will be made public. And that includes a person’s mind bending dysfunction and incompetence in high office in any organization anywhere on Earth including the Baha’i Faith.

    I preach the World Age. I preach the New Day.

    These are the new watch words that will change the world:

    “Stupid is as stupid does” – Forest Gump

    “Duh” – Homer Simpson

    Everyone have a nice weekend!

    Craig

  • Masud

    ep,

    I hate to have to say this, but you give me the awful impression of someone who hasn’t read any of the arguments against your position.

    “Simon Bolivar said that democracy would not work in south america because the racial factions had to fight each other for dominance.”

    The same was being said about Switzerland (where I live now) over three hundred years ago; racial/political tensions between the French and the Germans (the Italians came in later)…and yet it is a democracy nowadays, albeit with faults, as is the case in all democracies.

    “[...]has become conformist/dysfunctional as per a vast amount of evidence cited on this blog and elsewhere over the last 15 years of â€?westernâ€? freedom of expression on the internet”

    So because certain allegedly disenfranchised Baha’is and ex-Baha’is complain (or “rant” as is being done and encouraged in this blog) the Baha’i Faith has become conformist and dysfunctional? I don’t see any correlation; much less causation.

    “and is out of touch with the trajectory of the leading edge of cultural evolution.”

    Again, I think that culture should adapt to the Baha’i Faith, not vice-versa. I think this misconception is a sort of leitmotif in some people’s mindset, (and definitely in your last post) and is sometimes even manifested subconsciously, as I think is the case in the phrase cited above.

    “bahai metaphysics flubs the whole test because it is screwed up with respect to evolutionary theory, and can’t keep up with the leading edge of cognitive and linguistic theory.”

    Concerning evolutionary theory, you seem to speak as if the science is in on the issue and there’s no question about it. This is not the case at all. Concerning cognitive theory, are you referring to post-Piagetian and neo-Piagetian theories? Those described by Kurt Fischer, Michael Commons, Lawrence Kohlberg, etc.? If so, how has any aspect of “Baha’i theory” been debunked? (as you seem to be suggesting) Furthermore, I don’t see how the Baha’i Faith hasn’t kept up with cognitive linguistics.

    “bahai scripture, including shoghi effendi (french-catholic schooling), is full of unsupportable, culturally imperialistic, and extremely unsophisticated assumptions about what â€?westernâ€? culture consisted of 50 to 100 years ago.”

    You’re going to have to give me an example, Eric.

    “[...[in the face of a world that keeps changing and evolving in ways that bahai scripture is totally incapable of predicting or adapting to."

    Another example of the aforementioned leitmotif.

    "[...]bahai theory is a ridiculous dinosaur that can’t stand being scrutinized in the light of day.”

    And yet another…

    Craig,

    I very much liked your level-headed post. I would point out though, that is sounds very much like a sort of philosophy of history a la Hegel. Interestingly enough, I disagree with your main premise, but I agree completely with the rest of your syllogism. The main premise I disagree with is:

    “This documented sorry record of organizational entrenched dysfunctional mental illness may yet bear much fruit in future very useful psychological theories of organizational dysfunction”

    because, as of yet, this doesn’t characterize the Baha’i Faith. That mistakes have been made, I cannot and will not deny, but as a general characterization of the Baha’i Faith, with all due respect, I think you’re way off in your reasoning to think that it falls into this category. Who knows? Maybe we will fall into it in the future. You may even be an augur for this event. If that is the case, thank you; your admonitions have been taken into consideration. But until then, they are still mere prognostications. We can discuss this in a thousand years if you wish.

    In the meanwhile, I’ll be doing my best to live a Baha’i life, lead by example, and propagate the message of peace, love, and unity. And I would love for all of you to join me.

    I’ve enjoyed this discussion. All the best to all of you.
    Smile, breathe, and pray,

    Masud

  • Masud

    ep,

    I hate to have to say this, but you give me the awful impression of someone who hasn’t read any of the arguments against your position.

    “Simon Bolivar said that democracy would not work in south america because the racial factions had to fight each other for dominance.”

    The same was being said about Switzerland (where I live now) over three hundred years ago; racial/political tensions between the French and the Germans (the Italians came in later)…and yet it is a democracy nowadays, albeit with faults, as is the case in all democracies.

    “[...]has become conformist/dysfunctional as per a vast amount of evidence cited on this blog and elsewhere over the last 15 years of â€?westernâ€? freedom of expression on the internet”

    So because certain allegedly disenfranchised Baha’is and ex-Baha’is complain (or “rant” as is being done and encouraged in this blog) the Baha’i Faith has become conformist and dysfunctional? I don’t see any correlation; much less causation.

    “and is out of touch with the trajectory of the leading edge of cultural evolution.”

    Again, I think that culture should adapt to the Baha’i Faith, not vice-versa. I think this misconception is a sort of leitmotif in some people’s mindset, (and definitely in your last post) and is sometimes even manifested subconsciously, as I think is the case in the phrase cited above.

    “bahai metaphysics flubs the whole test because it is screwed up with respect to evolutionary theory, and can’t keep up with the leading edge of cognitive and linguistic theory.”

    Concerning evolutionary theory, you seem to speak as if the science is in on the issue and there’s no question about it. This is not the case at all. Concerning cognitive theory, are you referring to post-Piagetian and neo-Piagetian theories? Those described by Kurt Fischer, Michael Commons, Lawrence Kohlberg, etc.? If so, how has any aspect of “Baha’i theory” been debunked? (as you seem to be suggesting) Furthermore, I don’t see how the Baha’i Faith hasn’t kept up with cognitive linguistics.

    “bahai scripture, including shoghi effendi (french-catholic schooling), is full of unsupportable, culturally imperialistic, and extremely unsophisticated assumptions about what â€?westernâ€? culture consisted of 50 to 100 years ago.”

    You’re going to have to give me an example, Eric.

    “[...[in the face of a world that keeps changing and evolving in ways that bahai scripture is totally incapable of predicting or adapting to."

    Another example of the aforementioned leitmotif.

    "[...]bahai theory is a ridiculous dinosaur that can’t stand being scrutinized in the light of day.”

    And yet another…

    Craig,

    I very much liked your level-headed post. I would point out though, that is sounds very much like a sort of philosophy of history a la Hegel. Interestingly enough, I disagree with your main premise, but I agree completely with the rest of your syllogism. The main premise I disagree with is:

    “This documented sorry record of organizational entrenched dysfunctional mental illness may yet bear much fruit in future very useful psychological theories of organizational dysfunction”

    because, as of yet, this doesn’t characterize the Baha’i Faith. That mistakes have been made, I cannot and will not deny, but as a general characterization of the Baha’i Faith, with all due respect, I think you’re way off in your reasoning to think that it falls into this category. Who knows? Maybe we will fall into it in the future. You may even be an augur for this event. If that is the case, thank you; your admonitions have been taken into consideration. But until then, they are still mere prognostications. We can discuss this in a thousand years if you wish.

    In the meanwhile, I’ll be doing my best to live a Baha’i life, lead by example, and propagate the message of peace, love, and unity. And I would love for all of you to join me.

    I’ve enjoyed this discussion. All the best to all of you.
    Smile, breathe, and pray,

    Masud

  • Craig Parke

    I had to get up early this morning to assist someone with something here in my town. Just got back. I wish to point out that I myself did not mind at all Masud’s post and did not consider it spam. But then Grover was the one singled out as the “poster child” for apparently now banned critical thought of any kind in the new Brooks Brothers Suit top down apparatchik Baha’i Faith. I was only singled out as a lessor example of the kind of thinking that would apparently cause people to be sent to the re-education camps when the Baha’is take over the administration of all governance on this planet. But I did not mind Masud’s designation of me at all. But, then again, P and I did not attain the coveted “poster child” status. I suggest that true unity comes from the spark of the clash of differing opinions as Abdu’l-Baha (remember him?) once said and then discerning the truth of the matter from that exchange. I say history will show that people have to have free and open consultation to arrive at true unity. Lord Baha’u’llah had plenty to say about the dysfunctional archetypal political and religious “leaders” of His time on Earth who misled the people and who would, therefore, eventually lose their kingdoms in Divine Judgment. I say all Cosmic Judgment is archetypal in the Tarot deck of fates in this World Age as it unfolds. Baha’u’llah praised newspapers. That power of information and analysis is part of the empowering discourse of this World Age. And, yes, it should be fair and just as Baha’u’llah said.

    I say if any member of any Baha’i Institution gives a public speech to any audience, what they say is on the record and is fair game for discussion. But I also believe that these people flying around the world on the money of the rank and file to give speeches on their own personal opinions should not be in their job description. What they personally think about anything has zero weight. Absolutely zero. So why do it on people’s money? But in their weakness, maybe they have done everyone a favor by spilling the beans on the condition of their own hearts and systems of insight.

    Right now Shoghi Effendi himself, the BAO itself, the Plans themselves, and the little workbooks themselves are the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. In my observation in life that state of consciousness is not spiritual enough to achieve any kind of sustained free flow spiritual confirmation from the Cosmos. It is all about the consciousness first channeled by Baha’u’llah onto this plane of existence in the 19th Century that has now gone on to many other systems of thought and other spiritual movements. Whoever thinks on the biggest scale will have the greatest influence on human development and progress on this planet. Right now it is not the Baha’i organization. Right now the Faith is more inward and incestuous than ever. It is too closed off, distant, and restricted from the vital affairs and true immediate spiritual needs of the world. That may change when people have had enough of being turned into automatons and fight back to allow for personal systems of daily spiritual insight in life. Time will tell. History will decide.

    Everyone have a nice day!
    Everyone keep posting.

  • Craig Parke

    I had to get up early this morning to assist someone with something here in my town. Just got back. I wish to point out that I myself did not mind at all Masud’s post and did not consider it spam. But then Grover was the one singled out as the “poster child” for apparently now banned critical thought of any kind in the new Brooks Brothers Suit top down apparatchik Baha’i Faith. I was only singled out as a lessor example of the kind of thinking that would apparently cause people to be sent to the re-education camps when the Baha’is take over the administration of all governance on this planet. But I did not mind Masud’s designation of me at all. But, then again, P and I did not attain the coveted “poster child” status. I suggest that true unity comes from the spark of the clash of differing opinions as Abdu’l-Baha (remember him?) once said and then discerning the truth of the matter from that exchange. I say history will show that people have to have free and open consultation to arrive at true unity. Lord Baha’u’llah had plenty to say about the dysfunctional archetypal political and religious “leaders” of His time on Earth who misled the people and who would, therefore, eventually lose their kingdoms in Divine Judgment. I say all Cosmic Judgment is archetypal in the Tarot deck of fates in this World Age as it unfolds. Baha’u’llah praised newspapers. That power of information and analysis is part of the empowering discourse of this World Age. And, yes, it should be fair and just as Baha’u’llah said.

    I say if any member of any Baha’i Institution gives a public speech to any audience, what they say is on the record and is fair game for discussion. But I also believe that these people flying around the world on the money of the rank and file to give speeches on their own personal opinions should not be in their job description. What they personally think about anything has zero weight. Absolutely zero. So why do it on people’s money? But in their weakness, maybe they have done everyone a favor by spilling the beans on the condition of their own hearts and systems of insight.

    Right now Shoghi Effendi himself, the BAO itself, the Plans themselves, and the little workbooks themselves are the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. In my observation in life that state of consciousness is not spiritual enough to achieve any kind of sustained free flow spiritual confirmation from the Cosmos. It is all about the consciousness first channeled by Baha’u’llah onto this plane of existence in the 19th Century that has now gone on to many other systems of thought and other spiritual movements. Whoever thinks on the biggest scale will have the greatest influence on human development and progress on this planet. Right now it is not the Baha’i organization. Right now the Faith is more inward and incestuous than ever. It is too closed off, distant, and restricted from the vital affairs and true immediate spiritual needs of the world. That may change when people have had enough of being turned into automatons and fight back to allow for personal systems of daily spiritual insight in life. Time will tell. History will decide.

    Everyone have a nice day!
    Everyone keep posting.

  • Grover

    Hi everyone,

    A friend of mine emailed this website to me:

    http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/53/53-jamieson.php

    Although its Christian in nature, it’s findings show that christian churches have similar if not exactly the same problems as the Baha’i Faith with regards to people leaving.

    Check this out:

    [quote post="507"]James: Once we decided to leave our church it was easy to go. We have never missed it. We almost felt like we had outgrown it. It seemed that in church we were eternally covering the same ground.

    Why?

    So why do these middle aged long-term committed leaders within EPC churches leave the institutional churches they have been a part of for so long? The reasons people gave for leaving their churches can be grouped into two areas of concern.

    The first relates to the structure and orientation of the churches.

    Leavers gave the following reasons:
    · the shallowness of the format and approach
    · the seeming ineffectiveness of the church
    · the church was dysfunctional
    · the church was an autocracy
    · the church was too inward looking
    · the church was boring
    · the church contributed to people’s burnout
    · they disagreed with the philosophy of the leadership
    · the church was manipulative
    · the church was controlling
    · the church was abusive
    · there was a lack of biblical teaching
    · there were too many factions
    · there were ‘power’ issues
    · they wanted to explore new ways of ‘being’ church

    The second grouping of reasons related to personal growth and the spiritual/faith journey of individuals.5 Here the leavers felt:
    · they had grown beyond church
    · church was like a stuck record
    · church hindered their connection with God
    · church provided them with no support
    · church was too narrow
    · they had too many questions
    · they were not heard
    · they wanted to be freed to make contact with non-Christian people
    · church was too limiting
    · they wanted more contemplation
    · they had been discarded
    · church did not scratch where they itched
    · they wanted a more intimate and participatory environment
    Most people spoke of a combination of church related concerns and personal issues of growth or needing something ‘different’ for their own spiritual development. [/quote]

    the last bit in the article where the author quotes a participant is particularly significant and I guess it sums up what we all want:

    [quote post="507"]I was looking for a place where I could be real – a place whose understanding of God and the spiritual journey allowed for reality. I was looking for a place where relationship was important and where it was acknowledged that there would be differences in the way we each outworked our spiritual journeys. A place where there was freedom for me to grow in the way I felt God was inviting me to. A place where I could support others and be supported by them.[/quote]

    More articles and research by the same author are given here:

    http://churchlessfaith.org/?page_id=15

  • Grover

    Hi everyone,

    A friend of mine emailed this website to me:

    http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/53/53-jamieson.php

    Although its Christian in nature, it’s findings show that christian churches have similar if not exactly the same problems as the Baha’i Faith with regards to people leaving.

    Check this out:

    [quote post="507"]James: Once we decided to leave our church it was easy to go. We have never missed it. We almost felt like we had outgrown it. It seemed that in church we were eternally covering the same ground.

    Why?

    So why do these middle aged long-term committed leaders within EPC churches leave the institutional churches they have been a part of for so long? The reasons people gave for leaving their churches can be grouped into two areas of concern.

    The first relates to the structure and orientation of the churches.

    Leavers gave the following reasons:
    · the shallowness of the format and approach
    · the seeming ineffectiveness of the church
    · the church was dysfunctional
    · the church was an autocracy
    · the church was too inward looking
    · the church was boring
    · the church contributed to people’s burnout
    · they disagreed with the philosophy of the leadership
    · the church was manipulative
    · the church was controlling
    · the church was abusive
    · there was a lack of biblical teaching
    · there were too many factions
    · there were ‘power’ issues
    · they wanted to explore new ways of ‘being’ church

    The second grouping of reasons related to personal growth and the spiritual/faith journey of individuals.5 Here the leavers felt:
    · they had grown beyond church
    · church was like a stuck record
    · church hindered their connection with God
    · church provided them with no support
    · church was too narrow
    · they had too many questions
    · they were not heard
    · they wanted to be freed to make contact with non-Christian people
    · church was too limiting
    · they wanted more contemplation
    · they had been discarded
    · church did not scratch where they itched
    · they wanted a more intimate and participatory environment
    Most people spoke of a combination of church related concerns and personal issues of growth or needing something ‘different’ for their own spiritual development. [/quote]

    the last bit in the article where the author quotes a participant is particularly significant and I guess it sums up what we all want:

    [quote post="507"]I was looking for a place where I could be real – a place whose understanding of God and the spiritual journey allowed for reality. I was looking for a place where relationship was important and where it was acknowledged that there would be differences in the way we each outworked our spiritual journeys. A place where there was freedom for me to grow in the way I felt God was inviting me to. A place where I could support others and be supported by them.[/quote]

    More articles and research by the same author are given here:

    http://churchlessfaith.org/?page_id=15

  • Concourse on Low

    Anyone who identifies with the sentiments quoted by Grover may find Unitarian Universalism an interesting option to explore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

    [quote comment=""]Hi everyone,

    A friend of mine emailed this website to me:

    http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/53/53-jamieson.php

    Although its Christian in nature, it’s findings show that christian churches have similar if not exactly the same problems as the Baha’i Faith with regards to people leaving.

    Check this out:

    [quote post="507"]James: Once we decided to leave our church it was easy to go. We have never missed it. We almost felt like we had outgrown it. It seemed that in church we were eternally covering the same ground.

    Why?

    So why do these middle aged long-term committed leaders within EPC churches leave the institutional churches they have been a part of for so long? The reasons people gave for leaving their churches can be grouped into two areas of concern.

    The first relates to the structure and orientation of the churches.

    Leavers gave the following reasons:
    · the shallowness of the format and approach
    · the seeming ineffectiveness of the church
    · the church was dysfunctional
    · the church was an autocracy
    · the church was too inward looking
    · the church was boring
    · the church contributed to people’s burnout
    · they disagreed with the philosophy of the leadership
    · the church was manipulative
    · the church was controlling
    · the church was abusive
    · there was a lack of biblical teaching
    · there were too many factions
    · there were ‘power’ issues
    · they wanted to explore new ways of ‘being’ church

    The second grouping of reasons related to personal growth and the spiritual/faith journey of individuals.5 Here the leavers felt:
    · they had grown beyond church
    · church was like a stuck record
    · church hindered their connection with God
    · church provided them with no support
    · church was too narrow
    · they had too many questions
    · they were not heard
    · they wanted to be freed to make contact with non-Christian people
    · church was too limiting
    · they wanted more contemplation
    · they had been discarded
    · church did not scratch where they itched
    · they wanted a more intimate and participatory environment
    Most people spoke of a combination of church related concerns and personal issues of growth or needing something ‘different’ for their own spiritual development. [/quote]

    the last bit in the article where the author quotes a participant is particularly significant and I guess it sums up what we all want:

    [quote post="507"]I was looking for a place where I could be real – a place whose understanding of God and the spiritual journey allowed for reality. I was looking for a place where relationship was important and where it was acknowledged that there would be differences in the way we each outworked our spiritual journeys. A place where there was freedom for me to grow in the way I felt God was inviting me to. A place where I could support others and be supported by them.[/quote]

    More articles and research by the same author are given here:

    http://churchlessfaith.org/?page_id=15/quote

  • Concourse on Low

    Anyone who identifies with the sentiments quoted by Grover may find Unitarian Universalism an interesting option to explore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

    [quote comment=""]Hi everyone,

    A friend of mine emailed this website to me:

    http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/53/53-jamieson.php

    Although its Christian in nature, it’s findings show that christian churches have similar if not exactly the same problems as the Baha’i Faith with regards to people leaving.

    Check this out:

    [quote post="507"]James: Once we decided to leave our church it was easy to go. We have never missed it. We almost felt like we had outgrown it. It seemed that in church we were eternally covering the same ground.

    Why?

    So why do these middle aged long-term committed leaders within EPC churches leave the institutional churches they have been a part of for so long? The reasons people gave for leaving their churches can be grouped into two areas of concern.

    The first relates to the structure and orientation of the churches.

    Leavers gave the following reasons:
    · the shallowness of the format and approach
    · the seeming ineffectiveness of the church
    · the church was dysfunctional
    · the church was an autocracy
    · the church was too inward looking
    · the church was boring
    · the church contributed to people’s burnout
    · they disagreed with the philosophy of the leadership
    · the church was manipulative
    · the church was controlling
    · the church was abusive
    · there was a lack of biblical teaching
    · there were too many factions
    · there were ‘power’ issues
    · they wanted to explore new ways of ‘being’ church

    The second grouping of reasons related to personal growth and the spiritual/faith journey of individuals.5 Here the leavers felt:
    · they had grown beyond church
    · church was like a stuck record
    · church hindered their connection with God
    · church provided them with no support
    · church was too narrow
    · they had too many questions
    · they were not heard
    · they wanted to be freed to make contact with non-Christian people
    · church was too limiting
    · they wanted more contemplation
    · they had been discarded
    · church did not scratch where they itched
    · they wanted a more intimate and participatory environment
    Most people spoke of a combination of church related concerns and personal issues of growth or needing something ‘different’ for their own spiritual development. [/quote]

    the last bit in the article where the author quotes a participant is particularly significant and I guess it sums up what we all want:

    [quote post="507"]I was looking for a place where I could be real – a place whose understanding of God and the spiritual journey allowed for reality. I was looking for a place where relationship was important and where it was acknowledged that there would be differences in the way we each outworked our spiritual journeys. A place where there was freedom for me to grow in the way I felt God was inviting me to. A place where I could support others and be supported by them.[/quote]

    More articles and research by the same author are given here:

    http://churchlessfaith.org/?page_id=15/quote

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]

    Grover wrote:

    Hi everyone,

    A friend of mine emailed this website to me:

    http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/53/53-jamieson.php

    [/quote]

    Hi Grover,

    An excellent article. Very interesting and I agree very similar to what has happened in the Baha’i Faith.

    Thank you for posting this link. I will reflect much further on what I read before I comment.

    Craig

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]

    Grover wrote:

    Hi everyone,

    A friend of mine emailed this website to me:

    http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/53/53-jamieson.php

    [/quote]

    Hi Grover,

    An excellent article. Very interesting and I agree very similar to what has happened in the Baha’i Faith.

    Thank you for posting this link. I will reflect much further on what I read before I comment.

    Craig

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]

    Grover wrote:

    Hi everyone,

    A friend of mine emailed this website to me:

    http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/53/53-jamieson.php

    [/quote]

    Grover,

    I think the human race will discover that the reason this happens in every so called “organized” religion is a susceptibility to this kind of completely over-the-top hyper organization brain chemistry in some people. It happens in business organizations too where everyone is organized around the last product or service. It happens in military organizations too where everyone is organized around the last war. The sign of this is you have an organization of people who cannot think outside the box. In my lifetime the Baha’i Faith went from free thinkers following a reasonably bottom up organized moderately esoteric Sufi system of thought, to the Red terror. You look at the whole clergy bent in the Abrahamic religions and what has now happened in the Baha’i Faith and I myself do not think this brain chemistry can ever be overcome in the human race. People who seek to find their being and personal psychological system of self definition through being high in an organizational position are as*holes for human beings and always will be. Yes. The human race needs some minimal organization, but it needs psychologically well adjusted people to serve in them within specific term limits. Not having term limits in any organizational structure, is just asking for trouble. You have to have elections and term limits as checks and balances on entrenched mental illness being institutionalized. The actual hands on history of the human race speaks volumes on this. Many, many people had hoped this time out in the Baha’i religion things would have gone better. But it looks like the human race will never escape the Chief Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees archetype in human personality. I now think that it can never be overcome. There will always be Grand Mullahs in every religion to tell, everyone what to do at all times.

    People dropping away to found or join their own systems of spiritual community is happening in every religion. I think the Internet will accelerate this process. There are so many very deepened ex-Baha’is and fed up Baha’is out there these days, that you can have some very rich discussions by private e-mail on what people thought Baha’u’llah was actually teaching. I have learned a lot of amazing spiritual insight from people who have written me off-line. Many people learned some amazing Cosmic insights from their many years in the Faith serving at every level. These are all people who are now gone from the organization overkill but still follow the Writings in actual daily practice from moment to moment as life happens.

    I think the future spiritual evolution of the planet will now come from this current. God Bless Shirley MacLaine and people out there EXPERIMENTING ON THEIR OWN.

    The Intention Experiment: Using Your Thoughts to Change Your Life and the World
    by Lynne McTaggart
    http://tinyurl.com/2ce38k

    “The truth is out there”. (Hummm…nice log line for a TV show…)

    Some day these free thinker folks who think very, very big will inherit the Baha’i Faith because they will be able to actually get things done with great skill in the Universe/Multiverse.

    Creative people eventually get sustenance from the Cosmos.

    Un-creative people don’t because they think they already know everything.

    The Baha’i Faith is now completely uncreative and will greatly suffer grievous losses because of it.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]

    Grover wrote:

    Hi everyone,

    A friend of mine emailed this website to me:

    http://www.reality.org.nz/articles/53/53-jamieson.php

    [/quote]

    Grover,

    I think the human race will discover that the reason this happens in every so called “organized” religion is a susceptibility to this kind of completely over-the-top hyper organization brain chemistry in some people. It happens in business organizations too where everyone is organized around the last product or service. It happens in military organizations too where everyone is organized around the last war. The sign of this is you have an organization of people who cannot think outside the box. In my lifetime the Baha’i Faith went from free thinkers following a reasonably bottom up organized moderately esoteric Sufi system of thought, to the Red terror. You look at the whole clergy bent in the Abrahamic religions and what has now happened in the Baha’i Faith and I myself do not think this brain chemistry can ever be overcome in the human race. People who seek to find their being and personal psychological system of self definition through being high in an organizational position are as*holes for human beings and always will be. Yes. The human race needs some minimal organization, but it needs psychologically well adjusted people to serve in them within specific term limits. Not having term limits in any organizational structure, is just asking for trouble. You have to have elections and term limits as checks and balances on entrenched mental illness being institutionalized. The actual hands on history of the human race speaks volumes on this. Many, many people had hoped this time out in the Baha’i religion things would have gone better. But it looks like the human race will never escape the Chief Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees archetype in human personality. I now think that it can never be overcome. There will always be Grand Mullahs in every religion to tell, everyone what to do at all times.

    People dropping away to found or join their own systems of spiritual community is happening in every religion. I think the Internet will accelerate this process. There are so many very deepened ex-Baha’is and fed up Baha’is out there these days, that you can have some very rich discussions by private e-mail on what people thought Baha’u’llah was actually teaching. I have learned a lot of amazing spiritual insight from people who have written me off-line. Many people learned some amazing Cosmic insights from their many years in the Faith serving at every level. These are all people who are now gone from the organization overkill but still follow the Writings in actual daily practice from moment to moment as life happens.

    I think the future spiritual evolution of the planet will now come from this current. God Bless Shirley MacLaine and people out there EXPERIMENTING ON THEIR OWN.

    The Intention Experiment: Using Your Thoughts to Change Your Life and the World
    by Lynne McTaggart
    http://tinyurl.com/2ce38k

    “The truth is out there”. (Hummm…nice log line for a TV show…)

    Some day these free thinker folks who think very, very big will inherit the Baha’i Faith because they will be able to actually get things done with great skill in the Universe/Multiverse.

    Creative people eventually get sustenance from the Cosmos.

    Un-creative people don’t because they think they already know everything.

    The Baha’i Faith is now completely uncreative and will greatly suffer grievous losses because of it.

  • farhan

    Dear Friends,

    Here is an interesting web site that helps us decide how to cope when we disagree with decisions of institutions.

    http://covenantstudy.org/questions/disagreeing-with-a-decision/

    This obviously implies the duty of institutions to consider all criticismes offered in a correct manner.

    warmest

    Farhan

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Dear Friends,

    Here is an interesting web site that helps us decide how to cope when we disagree with decisions of institutions.

    http://covenantstudy.org/questions/disagreeing-with-a-decision/

    This obviously implies the duty of institutions to consider all criticismes offered in a correct manner.

    warmest

    Farhan

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Dear Friends,

    Here is an interesting web site that helps us decide how to cope when we disagree with decisions of institutions.

    http://covenantstudy.org/questions/disagreeing-with-a-decision/

    This obviously implies the duty of institutions to consider all criticismes offered in a correct manner.

    warmest

    Farhan[/quote]

    Thank you for the link, Farhan. It is a very nice site.

    The quotes are, indeed, the proper Baha’i approach.

    To my mind, basically, what it has all come down to is that the current ruling Institutions of the Baha’i Faith have decided that the Faith is to be completely destroyed in every land on Earth. By these quotes we must accept it. And I am now beginning to accpet it. I have more work to do in my soul, but I think I will be able to eventually accept it. But it is a struggle. Total destruction after years of dedicated support and service is hard to take. But I must indeed be firm in the Covenant and accept total destruction and total defeat worldwide. You are indeed correct. We all must accept this now as good Baha’is in accordance with the quotes.

    God, perhaps, may indeed fix it as the quotes imply by giving the Faith to another people or another spiritual movement. “He doeth whatsoever He willeth.” We must be confident that this will happen at some point. In fact, it may be actually happening as we speak.

    Everyone have a nice weekend!

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Dear Friends,

    Here is an interesting web site that helps us decide how to cope when we disagree with decisions of institutions.

    http://covenantstudy.org/questions/disagreeing-with-a-decision/

    This obviously implies the duty of institutions to consider all criticismes offered in a correct manner.

    warmest

    Farhan[/quote]

    Thank you for the link, Farhan. It is a very nice site.

    The quotes are, indeed, the proper Baha’i approach.

    To my mind, basically, what it has all come down to is that the current ruling Institutions of the Baha’i Faith have decided that the Faith is to be completely destroyed in every land on Earth. By these quotes we must accept it. And I am now beginning to accpet it. I have more work to do in my soul, but I think I will be able to eventually accept it. But it is a struggle. Total destruction after years of dedicated support and service is hard to take. But I must indeed be firm in the Covenant and accept total destruction and total defeat worldwide. You are indeed correct. We all must accept this now as good Baha’is in accordance with the quotes.

    God, perhaps, may indeed fix it as the quotes imply by giving the Faith to another people or another spiritual movement. “He doeth whatsoever He willeth.” We must be confident that this will happen at some point. In fact, it may be actually happening as we speak.

    Everyone have a nice weekend!

  • ep

    Farhan,

    Craig is of course quite correct.

    It is very interesting that the “Covenant” web site (which should be renamed “how to be a boring, dehumanized, inflexible bahai fundamentalist out of touch with the real world”) left out all the stuff from bahai scripture about the importance of ALL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION and about the way that ASSEMBLIES self-destruct from FALSE UNITY (conformism to backward ideas-beliefs).

    In any case, the quotes certainly demonstrate how confused, contradictory, conformist, tribal, imperialist, premodern and backward the bahai concept of accountability in governance is. thought policing, cronyism and nepotism always run amok when there is a lack of openness and transparency such as exist throughout the bahai system. rot sets in fastest in dark, moist places full of excrements that rarely or never see light of day or fresh air.

    The bahai system is almost completely incapable of recovering from such rot and corruption, which explains why people running it frequently do the exact opposite of what their own scriptures state, and fully expect their supporters to attack and marginalize any critic, dissident or non-conformist.

    (bahais simply can’t handle the overwhelming depression and confusion that would result from being honest about how failed the current paradigm in the faith is, so “happiness” becomes increasingly shallow and superficial as it becomes impossible for people to “remember” how to “construct meaning” at a deeper, more profound, transcendant, level.)

    Which is one of the main reasons that it will become a dead religion very soon and have almost no influence on the world as far as increased enlightenment, peace, etc., are concerned.

    the bahai faith is not in need of the kind of (utopian and non-existent) “purification” that you repeat over and over, it is need of vast and deep reforms. unfortunately the current structure is not open to reform since the governance practices are anchored in inflexible scripture that can’t be broadly “reinterpreted”.

    virtually all of the major human, social and world problems that bahai claims to have solutions for are available elsewhere in a much better format.

    politics: bahai sucks
    mysticism: bahai sucks
    theology: bahai sucks
    philosophy: bahai sucks
    culture: bahai sucks
    scholarship: bahai sucks
    science: bahai sucks
    creativity: bahai sucks
    business: bahai sucks
    (etc.)

    the only things that bahai is good at is:

    conformism
    thought policing
    fundamentalism
    secrecy
    covering up huge mistakes
    useless plans

    - using all the money to create “style over substance” version of success to prop up the “system” and dehumanize individuals and local communities (“colonize lifeworld”)
    (etc.)

    Adeu amic!
    Eric P.

    [quote comment="54257"]Dear Friends,

    Here is an interesting web site that helps us decide how to cope when we disagree with decisions of institutions.

    http://covenantstudy.org/questions/disagreeing-with-a-decision/

    This obviously implies the duty of institutions to consider all criticismes offered in a correct manner.

    warmest

    Farhan[/quote]
    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]Dear Friends,

    Here is an interesting web site that helps us decide how to cope when we disagree with decisions of institutions.

    http://covenantstudy.org/questions/disagreeing-with-a-decision/

    This obviously implies the duty of institutions to consider all criticismes offered in a correct manner.

    warmest

    Farhan[/quote]

    Thank you for the link, Farhan. It is a very nice site.

    The quotes are, indeed, the proper Baha’i approach.

    To my mind, basically, what it has all come down to is that the current ruling Institutions of the Baha’i Faith have decided that the Faith is to be completely destroyed in every land on Earth. By these quotes we must accept it. And I am now beginning to accpet it. I have more work to do in my soul, but I think I will be able to eventually accept it. But it is a struggle. Total destruction after years of dedicated support and service is hard to take. But I must indeed be firm in the Covenant and accept total destruction and total defeat worldwide. You are indeed correct. We all must accept this now as good Baha’is in accordance with the quotes.

    God, perhaps, may indeed fix it as the quotes imply by giving the Faith to another people or another spiritual movement. “He doeth whatsoever He willeth.” We must be confident that this will happen at some point. In fact, it may be actually happening as we speak.

    Everyone have a nice weekend![/quote]

  • ep

    Farhan,

    Craig is of course quite correct.

    It is very interesting that the “Covenant” web site (which should be renamed “how to be a boring, dehumanized, inflexible bahai fundamentalist out of touch with the real world”) left out all the stuff from bahai scripture about the importance of ALL FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION and about the way that ASSEMBLIES self-destruct from FALSE UNITY (conformism to backward ideas-beliefs).

    In any case, the quotes certainly demonstrate how confused, contradictory, conformist, tribal, imperialist, premodern and backward the bahai concept of accountability in governance is. thought policing, cronyism and nepotism always run amok when there is a lack of openness and transparency such as exist throughout the bahai system. rot sets in fastest in dark, moist places full of excrements that rarely or never see light of day or fresh air.

    The bahai system is almost completely incapable of recovering from such rot and corruption, which explains why people running it frequently do the exact opposite of what their own scriptures state, and fully expect their supporters to attack and marginalize any critic, dissident or non-conformist.

    (bahais simply can’t handle the overwhelming depression and confusion that would result from being honest about how failed the current paradigm in the faith is, so “happiness” becomes increasingly shallow and superficial as it becomes impossible for people to “remember” how to “construct meaning” at a deeper, more profound, transcendant, level.)

    Which is one of the main reasons that it will become a dead religion very soon and have almost no influence on the world as far as increased enlightenment, peace, etc., are concerned.

    the bahai faith is not in need of the kind of (utopian and non-existent) “purification” that you repeat over and over, it is need of vast and deep reforms. unfortunately the current structure is not open to reform since the governance practices are anchored in inflexible scripture that can’t be broadly “reinterpreted”.

    virtually all of the major human, social and world problems that bahai claims to have solutions for are available elsewhere in a much better format.

    politics: bahai sucks
    mysticism: bahai sucks
    theology: bahai sucks
    philosophy: bahai sucks
    culture: bahai sucks
    scholarship: bahai sucks
    science: bahai sucks
    creativity: bahai sucks
    business: bahai sucks
    (etc.)

    the only things that bahai is good at is:

    conformism
    thought policing
    fundamentalism
    secrecy
    covering up huge mistakes
    useless plans

    - using all the money to create “style over substance” version of success to prop up the “system” and dehumanize individuals and local communities (“colonize lifeworld”)
    (etc.)

    Adeu amic!
    Eric P.

    [quote comment="54257"]Dear Friends,

    Here is an interesting web site that helps us decide how to cope when we disagree with decisions of institutions.

    http://covenantstudy.org/questions/disagreeing-with-a-decision/

    This obviously implies the duty of institutions to consider all criticismes offered in a correct manner.

    warmest

    Farhan[/quote]
    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]Dear Friends,

    Here is an interesting web site that helps us decide how to cope when we disagree with decisions of institutions.

    http://covenantstudy.org/questions/disagreeing-with-a-decision/

    This obviously implies the duty of institutions to consider all criticismes offered in a correct manner.

    warmest

    Farhan[/quote]

    Thank you for the link, Farhan. It is a very nice site.

    The quotes are, indeed, the proper Baha’i approach.

    To my mind, basically, what it has all come down to is that the current ruling Institutions of the Baha’i Faith have decided that the Faith is to be completely destroyed in every land on Earth. By these quotes we must accept it. And I am now beginning to accpet it. I have more work to do in my soul, but I think I will be able to eventually accept it. But it is a struggle. Total destruction after years of dedicated support and service is hard to take. But I must indeed be firm in the Covenant and accept total destruction and total defeat worldwide. You are indeed correct. We all must accept this now as good Baha’is in accordance with the quotes.

    God, perhaps, may indeed fix it as the quotes imply by giving the Faith to another people or another spiritual movement. “He doeth whatsoever He willeth.” We must be confident that this will happen at some point. In fact, it may be actually happening as we speak.

    Everyone have a nice weekend![/quote]

  • Grover

    Those quotes are good up to a point.

    It just occurred to me that a lot of major businesses have similar principles. If you disagree with a decision by a mananger, you can take it up with them, or with the CEO, etc, etc. If you actively undermine the business, physically or pyschologically, because you don’t agree with the decision you get fired. Alternatively you can pack your bags and leave.

    BUT, most businesses have learnt, I suppose, a draconian mode of operation often results in employees being unhappy, and when they’re unhappy, they’re not as productive and they’re off looking for other jobs. So the business has to put up with a high rate of employee turnover which lowers productivity again because it takes 3-6 months to bring a new employee up to speed. So good business often involves keeping the employees happy by creating a positive work environment and listening and acting upon their concerns. Good business treats employees as a valuable resource. The stick is always there, but it is usually gathering dust in the closet somewhere. The interesting thing is that the competitive nature of business allows natural selection, survival of the fittest and so on (I find it ironic that America is strongly capitalist, but a goodly proportion of its people don’t believe in evolutionary theory), so the bad businesses fail and the good ones survive.

    It seems the Baha’i Faith hasn’t learnt good business practice yet (I’m generalising here), its still waving the stick around demanding absolute obedience because its God’s will and the Writings say so, yada yada yada. Its like a bad unconfident parent that has no power at all. The difference between the Bahai Faith and business is the Baha’is don’t get paid, so there is not a lot of incentive to stay put and keep the old mouth shut. The other difference is there is only “one” Baha’i Faith, so if you’re really unhappy, but you’re still a believer, you have no choice really, until the cognitive conflict becomes so bad you either become inactive or leave.

    So while we get all angus about how backward the Faith is, its really about how the idiots we voted in have implemented the writings and how bad they are at managing people.

    If the Baha’i Faith had been allowed to split up into small denominations, it could have evolved naturally, and probably would have been more successful. All the intelligent rabble-rousers could have joined one denomination and gone nuts debating everything under the sun and produce some wonderful works for academia. All the drones and spuds could have joined another denomination and been happy sitting round singing kumbaya. People would have moved between denominations until they found something that suited them and then eventually everyone would have been happy. But no, it had to be “one” faith, “one” people, strict obedience, and unflinching loyalty.

    “Rules are made for the guidance of the wise and strict adherence of fools”

    Craig, I was meaning to reply to your response regarding that website about post-church christian groups. What I mentioned above carries the gist of what I was going to say.

  • Grover

    Those quotes are good up to a point.

    It just occurred to me that a lot of major businesses have similar principles. If you disagree with a decision by a mananger, you can take it up with them, or with the CEO, etc, etc. If you actively undermine the business, physically or pyschologically, because you don’t agree with the decision you get fired. Alternatively you can pack your bags and leave.

    BUT, most businesses have learnt, I suppose, a draconian mode of operation often results in employees being unhappy, and when they’re unhappy, they’re not as productive and they’re off looking for other jobs. So the business has to put up with a high rate of employee turnover which lowers productivity again because it takes 3-6 months to bring a new employee up to speed. So good business often involves keeping the employees happy by creating a positive work environment and listening and acting upon their concerns. Good business treats employees as a valuable resource. The stick is always there, but it is usually gathering dust in the closet somewhere. The interesting thing is that the competitive nature of business allows natural selection, survival of the fittest and so on (I find it ironic that America is strongly capitalist, but a goodly proportion of its people don’t believe in evolutionary theory), so the bad businesses fail and the good ones survive.

    It seems the Baha’i Faith hasn’t learnt good business practice yet (I’m generalising here), its still waving the stick around demanding absolute obedience because its God’s will and the Writings say so, yada yada yada. Its like a bad unconfident parent that has no power at all. The difference between the Bahai Faith and business is the Baha’is don’t get paid, so there is not a lot of incentive to stay put and keep the old mouth shut. The other difference is there is only “one” Baha’i Faith, so if you’re really unhappy, but you’re still a believer, you have no choice really, until the cognitive conflict becomes so bad you either become inactive or leave.

    So while we get all angus about how backward the Faith is, its really about how the idiots we voted in have implemented the writings and how bad they are at managing people.

    If the Baha’i Faith had been allowed to split up into small denominations, it could have evolved naturally, and probably would have been more successful. All the intelligent rabble-rousers could have joined one denomination and gone nuts debating everything under the sun and produce some wonderful works for academia. All the drones and spuds could have joined another denomination and been happy sitting round singing kumbaya. People would have moved between denominations until they found something that suited them and then eventually everyone would have been happy. But no, it had to be “one” faith, “one” people, strict obedience, and unflinching loyalty.

    “Rules are made for the guidance of the wise and strict adherence of fools”

    Craig, I was meaning to reply to your response regarding that website about post-church christian groups. What I mentioned above carries the gist of what I was going to say.

  • ep

    re:
    | It seems the Baha’i Faith hasn’t learnt good business practice yet
    | (I’m generalising here), its still waving the stick around
    | demanding absolute obedience because its God’s will and the
    | Writings say so, yada yada yada.
    |
    | The other difference is there is only “one” Baha’i Faith, so if
    | you’re really unhappy, but you’re still a believer, you have no
    | choice really, until the cognitive conflict becomes so bad you
    | either become inactive or leave.

    Grover,

    Excellent points.

    bahai scripture is very clear on the absolute necessity of honesty and self-examination, which in organizational terms is “accountability”, “openness” and “transparency” (which are hideously deprecated in bahai organization where tribal myth and conformism dominate). Lots of very sophisticated research has been done on the psychosocial dynamics of organizations, and how their “incentive structures” work, or don’t (become dysfunctional).

    Rabbi Michael Learner’s work (www.tikkun.org) is a good example, but is more oriented towards the politics of labor and workplace stress as they relate to a lack of a “spiritual ethos” in society.

    The dominant paradigm that bahai organization has been operating under has been dysfunctional for a long time, as I learned shortly after becoming a bahai in the early 70s, and as has been confirmed by several professional sociolgists that I’ve met who have studied bahai culture in a formal, scholarly context. one sociologist told me that “it would only take a good sociologist 15 minutes observing a typical bahai setting” to see the expected patterns of a dysfunctional organization.

    There are explainable reasons why bahai contains “purity” myths that revolve around the need to cleanse the organization of “corrupt” outside influences – some of which are the very psychosocial theories that, ironically, would allow bahais to see how to correct what is wrong with bahai organization itself!

    (It really is “that stupid” sometimes.)

    M. Scott Peck’s article on organizational “exorcism” is very interesting:
    http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC29/Peck.htm

    | … according to psychiatrist and author M. Scott Peck, for any
    | group to achieve community in the truest sense, it must undertake
    | a journey that involves four stages: “pseudocommunity,” where
    | niceness reigns; “chaos,” when the emotional skeletons crawl out
    | of the closet; “emptiness,” a time of quiet and transition; and
    | finally, true community, marked both by deep honesty and deep
    | caring.

    Many bahais that have studied organizational theory are quite aware of the “false comm-unity” that exists in bahai culture, and have tried to change it. most have learned that they will be viciously attacked for upsetting the “comfort zone” of false unity that is the dominant, dishonest, dysfunctional mode of bahai communities.

    the studied indifference by most bahais to learning the many useful organizational tools for developing “real community” has been remarked on by everyone I’ve ever met that has learned those skills (usually in SED work) and has seen the “default” mode bahai organization functions in.

    in some cases, SED activists have used the tools to successfully “build community” for a period of time only to have “outside” bahai organizational fascists and thought police swoop in and damage or destroy all the good work in the name of the latest dysfunctional, conformist, fundamentalist fad coming out of “central HQ” (such as Ruhi).

    anyways, there are several articles on spirituality and business, organizational learning, and so forth, at the following web site, which contains the archives of “Integrative Explorations” – the Jean Gebser Society’s old journal – that you might find interesting.

    http://www.gebser.org/IE.html

    The best one (IMO) that describes, in Jungian-archetypal forms, how organizations progress/regress through various paradigms, or developmental/evolutionary “stages” is Neville’s. It is dense reading but gets good in spots where it pokes fun at how ridiculous people can be.

    http://www.gebser.org/publications/IntegrativeExplorationFiles/Neville.Structures.pdf

    excerpt:

    Bernie Neville
    La Trobe University

    Introduction

    In Gebser’s understanding, our contemporary consciousness is multi-structured or, to change the metaphor slightly, multi-layered. The complexity of human behavior comes out of the interplay of these several “layers” or “levels” of consciousness in whatever we do[footnote "i"]. Gebser suggests that the acknowledgment and appreciation of these discrete structures is a step towards the integration with the rational structure in a more “integral” way of experiencing the world. From the point of view of the rational-scientific culture that has been dominant for a few hundred years, magical and mythic thinking are primitive and inferior forms of thinking that have limited value in the contemporary world. However, we can argue that it is our capacity for mythical, and even magical, thinking that enables us to find meaning in our lives and gives us a grounding in the concrete world that rational thinking seems bent on destroying. It makes more sense to say that magical and mythical consciousness is neither better or worse than mental/rational consciousness. They are simply older and different.

    In this paper, I want to focus on the ways the discrete structures of consciousness are observable in business organizations.

    The archaic structure of consciousness is the basis of our �togetherness� in groups and organizations. Our very capacity to understand each other, feel for each other and identify with each other is grounded in archaic consciousness, which knows nothing of authority structures, goals, roles, reason, ethics, personal boundaries or even verbal language. However, if the culture of an organization is such that the need for belonging goes
    unacknowledged it becomes vulnerable to a takeover by a regressive,
    pathological, archaic consciousness, where the organization collectively behaves in infantile, pre–rational ways, driven by fear, greed, or vengeance, and the individuals find themselves caught up in an energy that they cannot control. We may not often see corporations engaged in spectacularly destructive “mob” behavior, but we do hear their executives and directors sincerely talking the rhetoric of environmental responsibility, social obligation and cultural sensitivity even as the corporate body occupies itself in environmental destruction, social brigandage and cultural oppression which these same executives and many of their employees are simply unable to see.

    The essence of the kind of group we generally call a �corporation� is the attempt to establish a level of abstract structure that transcends the instinctual collectivity of the clan. We don’t see �pure� archaic consciousness in contemporary organizations. Yet, following Gebser, we might argue that the natural basis of organizational life is our �oneness� not only with each other but with the earth itself

    The Magical Organization

    Gebser argues that, in spite of our illusion that we are totally rational individuals, the older structures of consciousness still continue to function in us, and that part of our brain knows nothing about either individual identity or rationality and inhabits a magical–mythical world. If we accept this argument we will expect to find evidence for it in contemporary organizations.

    Underneath the contemporary organization’s rationally stated policies and strategies and decisions there is a �group think� that tends to respond to the world in the same way our stone age ancestors did – through magic.

    When it is time for the rains to come we dance the rain dance, and it rains. We always do the dance at this season and it always rains. If it does not rain this time, it is because we are not doing the
    dance correctly. We will have to keep doing it until we get it right. In our experience many organizational practices have these characteristics, particularly and especially in the area of organizational advancement – a more recent coinage for what used to be called organization development. They are amply described in an article by Robert Schaffer and Harvey Thomson who speak of activity–centered interventions: they speak of such rain dances as the ardent pursuit of activities that sound good, look good and allow managers to feel good, but in fact contribute little or nothing to fundamental corporate performance. [footnote xii]

    In times of external threat and crisis, those that lead and manage
    organizations are particularly susceptible to the seduction of the magical consciousness. At first glance they do not appear caught in the trap of conservatism and oft–repeated ritualistic behavior; their language, decisions and behavior speak of change, development and transformation. However, this lexicon is a mask, a distraction. Often such leaders will have by their side a magician to weave the magic for them. The magician will be a consultant or group of consultants in whom the senior management have invested their own hope for the future as a way of resolving a much deeper and unconscious impotence, doubt or anxiety. The consultants can come in many forms and guises: they can range the full gamut, from rational, systematic, advice–givers to skills providers, systems analysts and strategic problem solvers, to those with a more facilitative, value–based and relational focus. The cloak, potions, and spells of the magician are less important than the fact that, at some

    [222]
    level, the leader has cast the consultant in the mould of a magician.
    CEOs, newly appointed to organizations in crisis or under threat, are
    especially vulnerable to this seduction, often presented to them by their assistants and trusted lieutenants.

    …It is easier for an outsider to see the ritualised hatred, self–destruction or scapegoating within a nation, a corporation or a club and declare that on any rational ground it ought to stop. Those who are enmeshed in the situation are likely to be caught up in the â€?group thinkâ€?, taken over by something â€?bigger than themselvesâ€?, and unable to see clearly or act rationally. The magical structure acts out of impulse and emotion. Reasons and justifications are constructed later by the rational structure.

    Jung has a great deal to say about unconscious processes, but he makes very little direct contribution to a discussion of group behavior. His observation of group behavior, especially his observation of the rise of Nazism, convinced him that group behavior is generally stupid, and often immensely dangerous. He declared that the larger a group becomes, the less intelligence it has.

    It is a frequent source of wonder that people who are capable of sane and intelligent behavior as individuals can become completely irrational as members of a group. Each time they emerge from the group and reflect on their behavior they may express amazement that they could have behaved so strangely. Then they re–enter the group and behave exactly as before. The group identity and emotionality have swallowed them. As individuals, we think of emotion as something we have. It may be difficult to control at times, but it is ours. However, at the level of our magical consciousness it is the emotion that �has� us. Our rage, or lust, or depression, or exhilaration are not initiated by us or owned by us.
    Rather, they are energies that take possession of us, dominate us for a while, and leave us if and when it suits them. For our pre–scientific ancestors it was natural to think of them as gods.

    Power relations in organizations are deeply embedded in magical
    consciousness. Often this is by way of transference, as we invest a leader with the qualities of the omnipotent parent who dominated our infantile consciousness. Investing another person with power over our emotional life, finding divinity in our guru or satanic evil in a hated superior is not a rational act.

    Organizations are very prone to project their pathology on to other
    organizations. Organizations that close their collective eyes to their own lack of ethical principles can be loud in their criticisms of the low ethical standards of other organizations.

    Sampson uses the Jungian term shadow to refer to the unacknowledged
    totalitarianism of the company in this instance. At the personal level, the Jungian shadow contains all the aspects of our personality that do not fit in with our self–image. Jung means this to include the positive aspects (such as creativity and altruism) that we are not able to acknowledge in ourselves, as well as the negative aspects, but in popular usage the shadow is often identified with the negative. The shadow is experienced
    collectively as well as personally. In pre–scientific societies, the shadow is dealt with both magically and mythically. Rituals are performed for allowing the shadow expression and, in some cultures, for exorcising it.

    The phenomenon of scapegoating is too common to require much comment.
    The delegation of particular individuals or sub–groups to act out the
    shadow–dynamic of the organization is likewise readily recognised. An
    organization that cultivates a self–image of order, rationality and
    propriety may tolerate within its ranks an individual or a group of
    individuals who behave in disordered, irrational and disordered ways. Or it may ritualise a regular celebration of the shadow, for example an annual �retreat� or an �office party�, which allows the shadow suitable expression and then shoves it back into the corporate unconscious for a year. The more the shadow energy is repressed in the conventional activities of the corporation, the more outlandish this officially sanctioned �carnival� behavior is likely to be.

    Magical consciousness functions through shared emotionality and ritual behaviors. The mythical structure functions through shared image and story. Though it is more �evolved� than magical consciousness it still has no clear sense of individual selfhood.

    We can thank Freud and Jung for calling our attention to the stories we act out in our lives. Freud documented a couple of stories in particular that he claimed we are scripted to re–enact. Jung, when he looked at the common patterns in human lives, claimed that there are a number of different stories that we find ourselves enmeshed in. Jung and Freud were most interested in the way we live out the myths without any awareness that we are doing so. We live out the old stories both personally (the Oedipus story, the Hero story, the Cinderella story) and collectively (the Oppressed Minority story, the Master Race story, the God’s Special People story).

    Even our personal stories are variations on the collective ones. Our
    stories still belong to the tribe. When Jung listened to the stories his patients told him about themselves, and the images they reported from their dreams, he was impressed by the way the same images and
    patterns kept turning up. It was his attempt to find an explanation for the way his patients’ intensely private experience was expressed in specific, apparently universal, images and narratives that led him to the notion of archetypes. He saw myths as the ancient narrative expression of these patterns or energies.

    …We can see how a shared story gives identity and meaning to a
    group of people, and how the conflict between two stories resists rational analysis and rational solutions. We can see former imperial nations, whose story of cultural and racial superiority no longer �works� for them, clinging to the story that once gave them identity, or trying to write themselves a new one.

    One of Jung’s most useful ideas was the notion of inflation. He used the word to refer to the state of an individual who is �taken over� by a specific archetypal energy and image, so that it entirely shapes their thinking, valuing, feeling and behavior. We sometimes describe a person as having a �power complex�, meaning that the drive to power dominates their way of being in the world. All other values have become insignificant. Their view of life is narrowed to a single dimension. In their obsession with power we see them acting irrationally and obsessively, and they don’t seem to have any control over this.

    In Gebser’s way of thinking, we would say that an �inflated� person has regressed to a simpler (magical–mythical) structure of consciousness, and has lost their individual identity in a collective image and narrative (mythical) or in the impersonality of fixed ideas and compulsive behaviors (magical). They have also lost their capacity to detach themselves from their experience and reflect on it. Magical–mythical consciousness does not have such a capacity, which belongs to rational consciousness.

    In a similar vein, organizations can become inflated with a dominant
    archetypal energy represented in a dominant organizational narrative.
    This collective obsession blinds the people within the organization to a more detached and multi–perspectival assessment of their experience. In the first place they are caught in a collective emotion sustained by ritual ways of behaving (magical structure); in the second place, they are caught up in a particular story that gives meaning to their behavior.
    They may consider that they are acting reasonably, according to a theory of good organizational practice, but it is theory swallowed whole without opportunity, or even desire, for critical reflection.

    So in the early 90s, we saw the Eros, Dionysos and Hermes myths being
    accepted as “the way things are”, in clear contrast to Zeus archetype that had preceded them.

    It is ironic that the image of the universe as machine hangs on in myth, while the idea of the universe as machine has been long ago abandoned by science, through the development of Einstein’s relativity theory, quantum theory and nonlinear dynamics. Science is currently replacing the idea and image of the universe as machine with a different idea and image, that of the universe as a self–organizing system, resembling a living organism rather more than it resembles a machine.

    Those who promote a particular way of imagining organizations and
    organizational change do not generally perceive themselves to be
    promoting a myth. They believe that they are constructing a theory and applying it in practice. Yet if the theory does not critically reflect on its own assumptions, if it will brook no contradiction, it is likely to be the rationalization of a myth. People stuck in a particular narrative don’t cease to think rationally; it is just that their rational thinking takes place within a framework of taken – for – granted assumptions that determine what the truth is in their tribe or organization. Myth doesn’t allow for contingency. It asserts that “the way things are” is inevitable and natural. Corporations stuck in a particular myth have no desire to
    change and no understanding of why they might need to do so. Their
    members are engaged in what developmental psychologist Robert Kegan

    []
    calls “third order” thinking, where “truth” is something given to the
    individual by the inheritance of a tradition or the consensus of their cultural group, rather than something arrived at through their own objective observations and reflections. [footnote xx]

    When leaders or their magicians try to impose a single story and image on an organization, they are more likely to generate confusion and demoralisation than constructive energy.

    The Mental/Rational Organization

    It is significant that the thinking behind both modern science and the modern corporation is blatantly elitist. Both the scientist and the manager of the rational organization distinguish themselves from the objects of science and the objects of management. The scientist/manager does the thinking and controlling; the objects, human or otherwise, are thought about and controlled. The rational organization operates out of the rationality of the chief executive and the elite leadership team which looks at the facts, develop strategies and systems, and put them into operation. Individuals at other levels of the organization may be invited to contribute information and ideas from time to time, but the �thinking�
    is done at the top.

    The mental structure of consciousness enables us to
    reflect critically on the myths in which our organization is enmeshed, the taken – for – granted assumptions out of which the organization’s dominant narrative is constructed.

    However, there is a twin paradox here. The mental/rational structure of consciousness gives individuals the capacity and inclination for
    reflection. It is a capacity that has been cherished by the science–
    dominated culture of the modern European era. However, this capacity is acknowledged only in the context of a single reality that is ultimately discoverable by science. Not only modern science, but modern organizations—religious, political and cultural—have been built upon the assumption that there is �one truth�. The nature of this �one truth� varies enormously, but the assumption is constant. Modern, rational organizations are, in Gebser’s words, perspectival, that is, they see the world from one direction only.

    The assumption still lurks behind the rational corporation’s fantasy of a unitary corporate culture. In such an organization, difference is feared as a threat to order. If people â€?think rightâ€? they will accept the truth as given to them and enjoy the order that depends on it; the alternative is chaos and disintegration.

    Reflection, in the fantasy of rational
    corporation, as in the fantasy of scientific culture, is reserved for the elite.

    In the �rational� corporation there is an official story promulgated,
    reinforced by rituals of status and procedure, and individuals �belong� to the organization to the degree that they accept this story. The problem with this particular story is that those who tell it and live it are inclined to assume that it is the only story. They will cling to this story even when they see their corporation behaving irrationally, as when it spends a great deal of energy and expense on getting objective data to assist
    decision–making and then actually makes its decisions according to
    prejudice or whim.

    This brings us back to Gebser’s argument that the rational structure of consciousness that has characterised the modern, industrial world is a deficient mental structure. Rational consciousness has so narrowly defined reality that it cannot see what is there. The only way rational consciousness can be an effective instrument for dealing with the world is by re–admitting aspects of reality that it has defined out of existence, aspects that were admitted in an efficient mental structure.

    A corporation functioning within the efficient mental structure of
    consciousness is able to utilize the rational thinking of its members
    without denying the magical and mythical dimensions of group life. The reflection and dialogue of the organization’s members enable it to function in the way most appropriate to its situation. Recognition of the corporation’s collective myths enables meaningful and purposive common action. Group ritual is acknowledged and honored for its effectiveness in developing a common identity. The mental organization cherishes soul as well as mind. However, such corporations may be hard to find. Many are stuck in a deficient and exhausted rational structure of consciousness.

    One of the features of integral consciousness as Gebser imagines it is the transcendence of the dualism that is at the core of rational thinking. In all sorts of fields we find that we no longer absolutely have to think in

    terms of either/or. Either spirit or matter. Either true or false. Either male or female. Either human or divine. Either wave or particle. Either living or non–living. Thinkers in various fields have given us ways of thinking outside these limitations. In organization theory there is still a great deal of dualistic thinking going on, but it is under challenge. The emerging integral organization does not assume that there must be a choice between concern for product and concern for people, between tradition and progress, between authority and chaos, between self–interest and altruism, between technology and humanity, between company business and personal business.

    Another feature of integral consciousness is the transcendence of a single perspective. The emerging integral organization is, to use one of Gebser’s key expressions, aperspectival. It does not locate itself (physically or metaphorically) on a particular spot and see the world from there. It attempts to see the world from no spot in particular and from all possible spots at once. The integral organization is able to hold different perspectives and different value systems. The deficient rational, perspectival consciousness is unable to do this. The rational organization prefers the security of one truth to the freedom and limitless possibility of many. The assumption of a single reality still lurks behind the fantasy
    of a unitary corporate culture. Both contemporary science and
    postmodern social analysis have challenged the feasibility of assuming any longer that there is a single reality. Gebser and contemporary constructive postmodernists challenge the assumption that order depends on believing in it.

    The emerging integral corporation is also �ego–free�. It does not have a narrowly defined sense of self, analogous to the ego in the individual psyche. It does not separate out a particular person or group of persons as the decision–making, controlling centre of the organism (or machine).

    To live to our full potential we have to admit into our consciousness all the suppressed and underdeveloped parts of
    our personality, a process that he called [***]individuation[***]. Archetypal
    psychologists emphasise that we have many selves, actual and potential. To concentrate on a single identity and self image is a denial of most of what we can be. The integral, or individuated, corporation likewise owns up to all of its potential, giving all of its selves expression.

    This kind of thinking about our place in the universe, even when it does not reach conscious expression, affects the way we think about
    corporations. It demands that corporations see themselves and structure themselves in ways that are consistent with a sense of themselves as open systems in a web of relationships that blur the boundaries between inside and outside. The boundary between the postmodern integral corporation and its human and nonhuman environment is exceedingly permeable.

    In the condition of liminality and doubt in which we find ourselves, we have a tendency to reach for old certainties, old solutions.
    Fundamentalists of all kinds proclaim that they possess the only truth. Managers cling to old ways of managing, based on the rational–
    mechanistic principles that enabled the achievements of the industrial age. Unfortunately, it is the old certainties and old solutions that have got us into the position we are in. We have to accept that we are living on an edge, that liminality and doubt is where we have to be right now, to accept that perhaps our experience of the world in the times that are coming will be an experience of ambiguity and paradox.

    Gebser’s story is about transcending the ways we imagine the world
    through our mythical consciousness and the incomplete truths we
    construct through our rational consciousness.

    The �new factor� he writes about is the capacity to experience reality integrally, not framed in a particular story in the manner of Apollo and the other gods, but in all the stories, in the manner of Hermes. Gebser was very much aware of the limitations of the perspectival thinking which marks our various theories and histories of the future. What he claimed to detect is an emerging capacity to experience the universe as whole, rather than through its the various fragments.

    Whether or not Gebser is credible in his observations of the particular direction our consciousness evolution is going, some sort of transformation of our consciousness at the individual and collective level appears to be urgently necessary if we are to survive. Our corporations are key sites for such change.

    —end excerpts—

    [quote comment="54267"]Those quotes are good up to a point.

    It just occurred to me that a lot of major businesses have similar principles. If you disagree with a decision by a mananger, you can take it up with them, or with the CEO, etc, etc. If you actively undermine the business, physically or pyschologically, because you don’t agree with the decision you get fired. Alternatively you can pack your bags and leave.

    BUT,
    So the business has to put up with a high rate of employee turnover which lowers productivity again because it takes 3-6 months to bring a new employee up to speed. So good business often involves keeping the employees happy by creating a positive work environment and listening and acting upon their concerns. Good business treats employees as a valuable resource. The stick is always there, but it is usually gathering dust in the closet somewhere. The interesting thing is that the competitive nature of business allows natural selection, survival of the fittest and so on (I find it ironic that America is strongly capitalist, but a goodly proportion of its people don’t believe in evolutionary theory), so the bad businesses fail and the good ones survive.

    So while we get all angus about how backward the Faith is, its really about how the idiots we voted in have implemented the writings and how bad they are at managing people.

    If the Baha’i Faith had been allowed to split up into small denominations, it could have evolved naturally, and probably would have been more successful. All the intelligent rabble-rousers could have joined one denomination and gone nuts debating everything under the sun and produce some wonderful works for academia. All the drones and spuds could have joined another denomination and been happy sitting round singing kumbaya. People would have moved between denominations until they found something that suited them and then eventually everyone would have been happy. But no, it had to be “one” faith, “one” people, strict obedience, and unflinching loyalty.

    “Rules are made for the guidance of the wise and strict adherence of fools”

    Craig, I was meaning to reply to your response regarding that website about post-church christian groups. What I mentioned above carries the gist of what I was going to say.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Those quotes are good up to a point.

    It just occurred to me that a lot of major businesses have similar principles. If you disagree with a decision by a mananger, you can take it up with them, or with the CEO, etc, etc. If you actively undermine the business, physically or pyschologically, because you don’t agree with the decision you get fired. Alternatively you can pack your bags and leave.

    BUT, most businesses have learnt, I suppose, a draconian mode of operation often results in employees being unhappy, and when they’re unhappy, they’re not as productive and they’re off looking for other jobs. So the business has to put up with a high rate of employee turnover which lowers productivity again because it takes 3-6 months to bring a new employee up to speed. So good business often involves keeping the employees happy by creating a positive work environment and listening and acting upon their concerns. Good business treats employees as a valuable resource. The stick is always there, but it is usually gathering dust in the closet somewhere. The interesting thing is that the competitive nature of business allows natural selection, survival of the fittest and so on (I find it ironic that America is strongly capitalist, but a goodly proportion of its people don’t believe in evolutionary theory), so the bad businesses fail and the good ones survive.

    It seems the Baha’i Faith hasn’t learnt good business practice yet (I’m generalising here), its still waving the stick around demanding absolute obedience because its God’s will and the Writings say so, yada yada yada. Its like a bad unconfident parent that has no power at all. The difference between the Bahai Faith and business is the Baha’is don’t get paid, so there is not a lot of incentive to stay put and keep the old mouth shut. The other difference is there is only “one” Baha’i Faith, so if you’re really unhappy, but you’re still a believer, you have no choice really, until the cognitive conflict becomes so bad you either become inactive or leave.

    So while we get all angus about how backward the Faith is, its really about how the idiots we voted in have implemented the writings and how bad they are at managing people.

    If the Baha’i Faith had been allowed to split up into small denominations, it could have evolved naturally, and probably would have been more successful. All the intelligent rabble-rousers could have joined one denomination and gone nuts debating everything under the sun and produce some wonderful works for academia. All the drones and spuds could have joined another denomination and been happy sitting round singing kumbaya. People would have moved between denominations until they found something that suited them and then eventually everyone would have been happy. But no, it had to be “one” faith, “one” people, strict obedience, and unflinching loyalty.

    “Rules are made for the guidance of the wise and strict adherence of fools”

    Craig, I was meaning to reply to your response regarding that website about post-church christian groups. What I mentioned above carries the gist of what I was going to say.[/quote]

  • ep

    re:
    | It seems the Baha’i Faith hasn’t learnt good business practice yet
    | (I’m generalising here), its still waving the stick around
    | demanding absolute obedience because its God’s will and the
    | Writings say so, yada yada yada.
    |
    | The other difference is there is only “one” Baha’i Faith, so if
    | you’re really unhappy, but you’re still a believer, you have no
    | choice really, until the cognitive conflict becomes so bad you
    | either become inactive or leave.

    Grover,

    Excellent points.

    bahai scripture is very clear on the absolute necessity of honesty and self-examination, which in organizational terms is “accountability”, “openness” and “transparency” (which are hideously deprecated in bahai organization where tribal myth and conformism dominate). Lots of very sophisticated research has been done on the psychosocial dynamics of organizations, and how their “incentive structures” work, or don’t (become dysfunctional).

    Rabbi Michael Learner’s work (www.tikkun.org) is a good example, but is more oriented towards the politics of labor and workplace stress as they relate to a lack of a “spiritual ethos” in society.

    The dominant paradigm that bahai organization has been operating under has been dysfunctional for a long time, as I learned shortly after becoming a bahai in the early 70s, and as has been confirmed by several professional sociolgists that I’ve met who have studied bahai culture in a formal, scholarly context. one sociologist told me that “it would only take a good sociologist 15 minutes observing a typical bahai setting” to see the expected patterns of a dysfunctional organization.

    There are explainable reasons why bahai contains “purity” myths that revolve around the need to cleanse the organization of “corrupt” outside influences – some of which are the very psychosocial theories that, ironically, would allow bahais to see how to correct what is wrong with bahai organization itself!

    (It really is “that stupid” sometimes.)

    M. Scott Peck’s article on organizational “exorcism” is very interesting:
    http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC29/Peck.htm

    | … according to psychiatrist and author M. Scott Peck, for any
    | group to achieve community in the truest sense, it must undertake
    | a journey that involves four stages: “pseudocommunity,” where
    | niceness reigns; “chaos,” when the emotional skeletons crawl out
    | of the closet; “emptiness,” a time of quiet and transition; and
    | finally, true community, marked both by deep honesty and deep
    | caring.

    Many bahais that have studied organizational theory are quite aware of the “false comm-unity” that exists in bahai culture, and have tried to change it. most have learned that they will be viciously attacked for upsetting the “comfort zone” of false unity that is the dominant, dishonest, dysfunctional mode of bahai communities.

    the studied indifference by most bahais to learning the many useful organizational tools for developing “real community” has been remarked on by everyone I’ve ever met that has learned those skills (usually in SED work) and has seen the “default” mode bahai organization functions in.

    in some cases, SED activists have used the tools to successfully “build community” for a period of time only to have “outside” bahai organizational fascists and thought police swoop in and damage or destroy all the good work in the name of the latest dysfunctional, conformist, fundamentalist fad coming out of “central HQ” (such as Ruhi).

    anyways, there are several articles on spirituality and business, organizational learning, and so forth, at the following web site, which contains the archives of “Integrative Explorations” – the Jean Gebser Society’s old journal – that you might find interesting.

    http://www.gebser.org/IE.html

    The best one (IMO) that describes, in Jungian-archetypal forms, how organizations progress/regress through various paradigms, or developmental/evolutionary “stages” is Neville’s. It is dense reading but gets good in spots where it pokes fun at how ridiculous people can be.

    http://www.gebser.org/publications/IntegrativeExplorationFiles/Neville.Structures.pdf

    excerpt:

    Bernie Neville
    La Trobe University

    Introduction

    In Gebser’s understanding, our contemporary consciousness is multi-structured or, to change the metaphor slightly, multi-layered. The complexity of human behavior comes out of the interplay of these several “layers” or “levels” of consciousness in whatever we do[footnote "i"]. Gebser suggests that the acknowledgment and appreciation of these discrete structures is a step towards the integration with the rational structure in a more “integral” way of experiencing the world. From the point of view of the rational-scientific culture that has been dominant for a few hundred years, magical and mythic thinking are primitive and inferior forms of thinking that have limited value in the contemporary world. However, we can argue that it is our capacity for mythical, and even magical, thinking that enables us to find meaning in our lives and gives us a grounding in the concrete world that rational thinking seems bent on destroying. It makes more sense to say that magical and mythical consciousness is neither better or worse than mental/rational consciousness. They are simply older and different.

    In this paper, I want to focus on the ways the discrete structures of consciousness are observable in business organizations.

    The archaic structure of consciousness is the basis of our �togetherness� in groups and organizations. Our very capacity to understand each other, feel for each other and identify with each other is grounded in archaic consciousness, which knows nothing of authority structures, goals, roles, reason, ethics, personal boundaries or even verbal language. However, if the culture of an organization is such that the need for belonging goes
    unacknowledged it becomes vulnerable to a takeover by a regressive,
    pathological, archaic consciousness, where the organization collectively behaves in infantile, pre–rational ways, driven by fear, greed, or vengeance, and the individuals find themselves caught up in an energy that they cannot control. We may not often see corporations engaged in spectacularly destructive “mob” behavior, but we do hear their executives and directors sincerely talking the rhetoric of environmental responsibility, social obligation and cultural sensitivity even as the corporate body occupies itself in environmental destruction, social brigandage and cultural oppression which these same executives and many of their employees are simply unable to see.

    The essence of the kind of group we generally call a �corporation� is the attempt to establish a level of abstract structure that transcends the instinctual collectivity of the clan. We don’t see �pure� archaic consciousness in contemporary organizations. Yet, following Gebser, we might argue that the natural basis of organizational life is our �oneness� not only with each other but with the earth itself

    The Magical Organization

    Gebser argues that, in spite of our illusion that we are totally rational individuals, the older structures of consciousness still continue to function in us, and that part of our brain knows nothing about either individual identity or rationality and inhabits a magical–mythical world. If we accept this argument we will expect to find evidence for it in contemporary organizations.

    Underneath the contemporary organization’s rationally stated policies and strategies and decisions there is a �group think� that tends to respond to the world in the same way our stone age ancestors did – through magic.

    When it is time for the rains to come we dance the rain dance, and it rains. We always do the dance at this season and it always rains. If it does not rain this time, it is because we are not doing the
    dance correctly. We will have to keep doing it until we get it right. In our experience many organizational practices have these characteristics, particularly and especially in the area of organizational advancement – a more recent coinage for what used to be called organization development. They are amply described in an article by Robert Schaffer and Harvey Thomson who speak of activity–centered interventions: they speak of such rain dances as the ardent pursuit of activities that sound good, look good and allow managers to feel good, but in fact contribute little or nothing to fundamental corporate performance. [footnote xii]

    In times of external threat and crisis, those that lead and manage
    organizations are particularly susceptible to the seduction of the magical consciousness. At first glance they do not appear caught in the trap of conservatism and oft–repeated ritualistic behavior; their language, decisions and behavior speak of change, development and transformation. However, this lexicon is a mask, a distraction. Often such leaders will have by their side a magician to weave the magic for them. The magician will be a consultant or group of consultants in whom the senior management have invested their own hope for the future as a way of resolving a much deeper and unconscious impotence, doubt or anxiety. The consultants can come in many forms and guises: they can range the full gamut, from rational, systematic, advice–givers to skills providers, systems analysts and strategic problem solvers, to those with a more facilitative, value–based and relational focus. The cloak, potions, and spells of the magician are less important than the fact that, at some

    [222]
    level, the leader has cast the consultant in the mould of a magician.
    CEOs, newly appointed to organizations in crisis or under threat, are
    especially vulnerable to this seduction, often presented to them by their assistants and trusted lieutenants.

    …It is easier for an outsider to see the ritualised hatred, self–destruction or scapegoating within a nation, a corporation or a club and declare that on any rational ground it ought to stop. Those who are enmeshed in the situation are likely to be caught up in the â€?group thinkâ€?, taken over by something â€?bigger than themselvesâ€?, and unable to see clearly or act rationally. The magical structure acts out of impulse and emotion. Reasons and justifications are constructed later by the rational structure.

    Jung has a great deal to say about unconscious processes, but he makes very little direct contribution to a discussion of group behavior. His observation of group behavior, especially his observation of the rise of Nazism, convinced him that group behavior is generally stupid, and often immensely dangerous. He declared that the larger a group becomes, the less intelligence it has.

    It is a frequent source of wonder that people who are capable of sane and intelligent behavior as individuals can become completely irrational as members of a group. Each time they emerge from the group and reflect on their behavior they may express amazement that they could have behaved so strangely. Then they re–enter the group and behave exactly as before. The group identity and emotionality have swallowed them. As individuals, we think of emotion as something we have. It may be difficult to control at times, but it is ours. However, at the level of our magical consciousness it is the emotion that �has� us. Our rage, or lust, or depression, or exhilaration are not initiated by us or owned by us.
    Rather, they are energies that take possession of us, dominate us for a while, and leave us if and when it suits them. For our pre–scientific ancestors it was natural to think of them as gods.

    Power relations in organizations are deeply embedded in magical
    consciousness. Often this is by way of transference, as we invest a leader with the qualities of the omnipotent parent who dominated our infantile consciousness. Investing another person with power over our emotional life, finding divinity in our guru or satanic evil in a hated superior is not a rational act.

    Organizations are very prone to project their pathology on to other
    organizations. Organizations that close their collective eyes to their own lack of ethical principles can be loud in their criticisms of the low ethical standards of other organizations.

    Sampson uses the Jungian term shadow to refer to the unacknowledged
    totalitarianism of the company in this instance. At the personal level, the Jungian shadow contains all the aspects of our personality that do not fit in with our self–image. Jung means this to include the positive aspects (such as creativity and altruism) that we are not able to acknowledge in ourselves, as well as the negative aspects, but in popular usage the shadow is often identified with the negative. The shadow is experienced
    collectively as well as personally. In pre–scientific societies, the shadow is dealt with both magically and mythically. Rituals are performed for allowing the shadow expression and, in some cultures, for exorcising it.

    The phenomenon of scapegoating is too common to require much comment.
    The delegation of particular individuals or sub–groups to act out the
    shadow–dynamic of the organization is likewise readily recognised. An
    organization that cultivates a self–image of order, rationality and
    propriety may tolerate within its ranks an individual or a group of
    individuals who behave in disordered, irrational and disordered ways. Or it may ritualise a regular celebration of the shadow, for example an annual �retreat� or an �office party�, which allows the shadow suitable expression and then shoves it back into the corporate unconscious for a year. The more the shadow energy is repressed in the conventional activities of the corporation, the more outlandish this officially sanctioned �carnival� behavior is likely to be.

    Magical consciousness functions through shared emotionality and ritual behaviors. The mythical structure functions through shared image and story. Though it is more �evolved� than magical consciousness it still has no clear sense of individual selfhood.

    We can thank Freud and Jung for calling our attention to the stories we act out in our lives. Freud documented a couple of stories in particular that he claimed we are scripted to re–enact. Jung, when he looked at the common patterns in human lives, claimed that there are a number of different stories that we find ourselves enmeshed in. Jung and Freud were most interested in the way we live out the myths without any awareness that we are doing so. We live out the old stories both personally (the Oedipus story, the Hero story, the Cinderella story) and collectively (the Oppressed Minority story, the Master Race story, the God’s Special People story).

    Even our personal stories are variations on the collective ones. Our
    stories still belong to the tribe. When Jung listened to the stories his patients told him about themselves, and the images they reported from their dreams, he was impressed by the way the same images and
    patterns kept turning up. It was his attempt to find an explanation for the way his patients’ intensely private experience was expressed in specific, apparently universal, images and narratives that led him to the notion of archetypes. He saw myths as the ancient narrative expression of these patterns or energies.

    …We can see how a shared story gives identity and meaning to a
    group of people, and how the conflict between two stories resists rational analysis and rational solutions. We can see former imperial nations, whose story of cultural and racial superiority no longer �works� for them, clinging to the story that once gave them identity, or trying to write themselves a new one.

    One of Jung’s most useful ideas was the notion of inflation. He used the word to refer to the state of an individual who is �taken over� by a specific archetypal energy and image, so that it entirely shapes their thinking, valuing, feeling and behavior. We sometimes describe a person as having a �power complex�, meaning that the drive to power dominates their way of being in the world. All other values have become insignificant. Their view of life is narrowed to a single dimension. In their obsession with power we see them acting irrationally and obsessively, and they don’t seem to have any control over this.

    In Gebser’s way of thinking, we would say that an �inflated� person has regressed to a simpler (magical–mythical) structure of consciousness, and has lost their individual identity in a collective image and narrative (mythical) or in the impersonality of fixed ideas and compulsive behaviors (magical). They have also lost their capacity to detach themselves from their experience and reflect on it. Magical–mythical consciousness does not have such a capacity, which belongs to rational consciousness.

    In a similar vein, organizations can become inflated with a dominant
    archetypal energy represented in a dominant organizational narrative.
    This collective obsession blinds the people within the organization to a more detached and multi–perspectival assessment of their experience. In the first place they are caught in a collective emotion sustained by ritual ways of behaving (magical structure); in the second place, they are caught up in a particular story that gives meaning to their behavior.
    They may consider that they are acting reasonably, according to a theory of good organizational practice, but it is theory swallowed whole without opportunity, or even desire, for critical reflection.

    So in the early 90s, we saw the Eros, Dionysos and Hermes myths being
    accepted as “the way things are”, in clear contrast to Zeus archetype that had preceded them.

    It is ironic that the image of the universe as machine hangs on in myth, while the idea of the universe as machine has been long ago abandoned by science, through the development of Einstein’s relativity theory, quantum theory and nonlinear dynamics. Science is currently replacing the idea and image of the universe as machine with a different idea and image, that of the universe as a self–organizing system, resembling a living organism rather more than it resembles a machine.

    Those who promote a particular way of imagining organizations and
    organizational change do not generally perceive themselves to be
    promoting a myth. They believe that they are constructing a theory and applying it in practice. Yet if the theory does not critically reflect on its own assumptions, if it will brook no contradiction, it is likely to be the rationalization of a myth. People stuck in a particular narrative don’t cease to think rationally; it is just that their rational thinking takes place within a framework of taken – for – granted assumptions that determine what the truth is in their tribe or organization. Myth doesn’t allow for contingency. It asserts that “the way things are” is inevitable and natural. Corporations stuck in a particular myth have no desire to
    change and no understanding of why they might need to do so. Their
    members are engaged in what developmental psychologist Robert Kegan

    []
    calls “third order” thinking, where “truth” is something given to the
    individual by the inheritance of a tradition or the consensus of their cultural group, rather than something arrived at through their own objective observations and reflections. [footnote xx]

    When leaders or their magicians try to impose a single story and image on an organization, they are more likely to generate confusion and demoralisation than constructive energy.

    The Mental/Rational Organization

    It is significant that the thinking behind both modern science and the modern corporation is blatantly elitist. Both the scientist and the manager of the rational organization distinguish themselves from the objects of science and the objects of management. The scientist/manager does the thinking and controlling; the objects, human or otherwise, are thought about and controlled. The rational organization operates out of the rationality of the chief executive and the elite leadership team which looks at the facts, develop strategies and systems, and put them into operation. Individuals at other levels of the organization may be invited to contribute information and ideas from time to time, but the �thinking�
    is done at the top.

    The mental structure of consciousness enables us to
    reflect critically on the myths in which our organization is enmeshed, the taken – for – granted assumptions out of which the organization’s dominant narrative is constructed.

    However, there is a twin paradox here. The mental/rational structure of consciousness gives individuals the capacity and inclination for
    reflection. It is a capacity that has been cherished by the science–
    dominated culture of the modern European era. However, this capacity is acknowledged only in the context of a single reality that is ultimately discoverable by science. Not only modern science, but modern organizations—religious, political and cultural—have been built upon the assumption that there is �one truth�. The nature of this �one truth� varies enormously, but the assumption is constant. Modern, rational organizations are, in Gebser’s words, perspectival, that is, they see the world from one direction only.

    The assumption still lurks behind the rational corporation’s fantasy of a unitary corporate culture. In such an organization, difference is feared as a threat to order. If people â€?think rightâ€? they will accept the truth as given to them and enjoy the order that depends on it; the alternative is chaos and disintegration.

    Reflection, in the fantasy of rational
    corporation, as in the fantasy of scientific culture, is reserved for the elite.

    In the �rational� corporation there is an official story promulgated,
    reinforced by rituals of status and procedure, and individuals �belong� to the organization to the degree that they accept this story. The problem with this particular story is that those who tell it and live it are inclined to assume that it is the only story. They will cling to this story even when they see their corporation behaving irrationally, as when it spends a great deal of energy and expense on getting objective data to assist
    decision–making and then actually makes its decisions according to
    prejudice or whim.

    This brings us back to Gebser’s argument that the rational structure of consciousness that has characterised the modern, industrial world is a deficient mental structure. Rational consciousness has so narrowly defined reality that it cannot see what is there. The only way rational consciousness can be an effective instrument for dealing with the world is by re–admitting aspects of reality that it has defined out of existence, aspects that were admitted in an efficient mental structure.

    A corporation functioning within the efficient mental structure of
    consciousness is able to utilize the rational thinking of its members
    without denying the magical and mythical dimensions of group life. The reflection and dialogue of the organization’s members enable it to function in the way most appropriate to its situation. Recognition of the corporation’s collective myths enables meaningful and purposive common action. Group ritual is acknowledged and honored for its effectiveness in developing a common identity. The mental organization cherishes soul as well as mind. However, such corporations may be hard to find. Many are stuck in a deficient and exhausted rational structure of consciousness.

    One of the features of integral consciousness as Gebser imagines it is the transcendence of the dualism that is at the core of rational thinking. In all sorts of fields we find that we no longer absolutely have to think in

    terms of either/or. Either spirit or matter. Either true or false. Either male or female. Either human or divine. Either wave or particle. Either living or non–living. Thinkers in various fields have given us ways of thinking outside these limitations. In organization theory there is still a great deal of dualistic thinking going on, but it is under challenge. The emerging integral organization does not assume that there must be a choice between concern for product and concern for people, between tradition and progress, between authority and chaos, between self–interest and altruism, between technology and humanity, between company business and personal business.

    Another feature of integral consciousness is the transcendence of a single perspective. The emerging integral organization is, to use one of Gebser’s key expressions, aperspectival. It does not locate itself (physically or metaphorically) on a particular spot and see the world from there. It attempts to see the world from no spot in particular and from all possible spots at once. The integral organization is able to hold different perspectives and different value systems. The deficient rational, perspectival consciousness is unable to do this. The rational organization prefers the security of one truth to the freedom and limitless possibility of many. The assumption of a single reality still lurks behind the fantasy
    of a unitary corporate culture. Both contemporary science and
    postmodern social analysis have challenged the feasibility of assuming any longer that there is a single reality. Gebser and contemporary constructive postmodernists challenge the assumption that order depends on believing in it.

    The emerging integral corporation is also �ego–free�. It does not have a narrowly defined sense of self, analogous to the ego in the individual psyche. It does not separate out a particular person or group of persons as the decision–making, controlling centre of the organism (or machine).

    To live to our full potential we have to admit into our consciousness all the suppressed and underdeveloped parts of
    our personality, a process that he called [***]individuation[***]. Archetypal
    psychologists emphasise that we have many selves, actual and potential. To concentrate on a single identity and self image is a denial of most of what we can be. The integral, or individuated, corporation likewise owns up to all of its potential, giving all of its selves expression.

    This kind of thinking about our place in the universe, even when it does not reach conscious expression, affects the way we think about
    corporations. It demands that corporations see themselves and structure themselves in ways that are consistent with a sense of themselves as open systems in a web of relationships that blur the boundaries between inside and outside. The boundary between the postmodern integral corporation and its human and nonhuman environment is exceedingly permeable.

    In the condition of liminality and doubt in which we find ourselves, we have a tendency to reach for old certainties, old solutions.
    Fundamentalists of all kinds proclaim that they possess the only truth. Managers cling to old ways of managing, based on the rational–
    mechanistic principles that enabled the achievements of the industrial age. Unfortunately, it is the old certainties and old solutions that have got us into the position we are in. We have to accept that we are living on an edge, that liminality and doubt is where we have to be right now, to accept that perhaps our experience of the world in the times that are coming will be an experience of ambiguity and paradox.

    Gebser’s story is about transcending the ways we imagine the world
    through our mythical consciousness and the incomplete truths we
    construct through our rational consciousness.

    The �new factor� he writes about is the capacity to experience reality integrally, not framed in a particular story in the manner of Apollo and the other gods, but in all the stories, in the manner of Hermes. Gebser was very much aware of the limitations of the perspectival thinking which marks our various theories and histories of the future. What he claimed to detect is an emerging capacity to experience the universe as whole, rather than through its the various fragments.

    Whether or not Gebser is credible in his observations of the particular direction our consciousness evolution is going, some sort of transformation of our consciousness at the individual and collective level appears to be urgently necessary if we are to survive. Our corporations are key sites for such change.

    —end excerpts—

    [quote comment="54267"]Those quotes are good up to a point.

    It just occurred to me that a lot of major businesses have similar principles. If you disagree with a decision by a mananger, you can take it up with them, or with the CEO, etc, etc. If you actively undermine the business, physically or pyschologically, because you don’t agree with the decision you get fired. Alternatively you can pack your bags and leave.

    BUT,
    So the business has to put up with a high rate of employee turnover which lowers productivity again because it takes 3-6 months to bring a new employee up to speed. So good business often involves keeping the employees happy by creating a positive work environment and listening and acting upon their concerns. Good business treats employees as a valuable resource. The stick is always there, but it is usually gathering dust in the closet somewhere. The interesting thing is that the competitive nature of business allows natural selection, survival of the fittest and so on (I find it ironic that America is strongly capitalist, but a goodly proportion of its people don’t believe in evolutionary theory), so the bad businesses fail and the good ones survive.

    So while we get all angus about how backward the Faith is, its really about how the idiots we voted in have implemented the writings and how bad they are at managing people.

    If the Baha’i Faith had been allowed to split up into small denominations, it could have evolved naturally, and probably would have been more successful. All the intelligent rabble-rousers could have joined one denomination and gone nuts debating everything under the sun and produce some wonderful works for academia. All the drones and spuds could have joined another denomination and been happy sitting round singing kumbaya. People would have moved between denominations until they found something that suited them and then eventually everyone would have been happy. But no, it had to be “one” faith, “one” people, strict obedience, and unflinching loyalty.

    “Rules are made for the guidance of the wise and strict adherence of fools”

    Craig, I was meaning to reply to your response regarding that website about post-church christian groups. What I mentioned above carries the gist of what I was going to say.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Those quotes are good up to a point.

    It just occurred to me that a lot of major businesses have similar principles. If you disagree with a decision by a mananger, you can take it up with them, or with the CEO, etc, etc. If you actively undermine the business, physically or pyschologically, because you don’t agree with the decision you get fired. Alternatively you can pack your bags and leave.

    BUT, most businesses have learnt, I suppose, a draconian mode of operation often results in employees being unhappy, and when they’re unhappy, they’re not as productive and they’re off looking for other jobs. So the business has to put up with a high rate of employee turnover which lowers productivity again because it takes 3-6 months to bring a new employee up to speed. So good business often involves keeping the employees happy by creating a positive work environment and listening and acting upon their concerns. Good business treats employees as a valuable resource. The stick is always there, but it is usually gathering dust in the closet somewhere. The interesting thing is that the competitive nature of business allows natural selection, survival of the fittest and so on (I find it ironic that America is strongly capitalist, but a goodly proportion of its people don’t believe in evolutionary theory), so the bad businesses fail and the good ones survive.

    It seems the Baha’i Faith hasn’t learnt good business practice yet (I’m generalising here), its still waving the stick around demanding absolute obedience because its God’s will and the Writings say so, yada yada yada. Its like a bad unconfident parent that has no power at all. The difference between the Bahai Faith and business is the Baha’is don’t get paid, so there is not a lot of incentive to stay put and keep the old mouth shut. The other difference is there is only “one” Baha’i Faith, so if you’re really unhappy, but you’re still a believer, you have no choice really, until the cognitive conflict becomes so bad you either become inactive or leave.

    So while we get all angus about how backward the Faith is, its really about how the idiots we voted in have implemented the writings and how bad they are at managing people.

    If the Baha’i Faith had been allowed to split up into small denominations, it could have evolved naturally, and probably would have been more successful. All the intelligent rabble-rousers could have joined one denomination and gone nuts debating everything under the sun and produce some wonderful works for academia. All the drones and spuds could have joined another denomination and been happy sitting round singing kumbaya. People would have moved between denominations until they found something that suited them and then eventually everyone would have been happy. But no, it had to be “one” faith, “one” people, strict obedience, and unflinching loyalty.

    “Rules are made for the guidance of the wise and strict adherence of fools”

    Craig, I was meaning to reply to your response regarding that website about post-church christian groups. What I mentioned above carries the gist of what I was going to say.[/quote]

  • farhan

    Craig wrote:

    To my mind, basically, what it has all come down to is that the current ruling Institutions of the Baha’i Faith have decided that the Faith is to be completely destroyed in every land on Earth.

    Dear Companions in research:

    I don’t see this as a “destruction” but to a revolution in whole social functioning. A “new creation” not in the atoms, but in the organising of our spiritual, social and hence material lives in this world of creation.

    Exactly as it happened when Tahirih withdrew her veil and when the Quran passage on the great reversal was read.

    My new understanding is that the UHJ is performing the “great reversal” where as promised in all the scriptures, the humble will be exalted and the proud abased. A society that will be based on offering each other service and not trying to be served by others.

    As always, change will bring about disruption before allowing for a new order to become apparent;

    This is painful, but necessary. The process was described by Alvin Toffler in the 1970s in his book the “Future Shock”.

    When society evolves we all undergo a destruction of our automatic functions that leads to an adaptation crisis, a sort of “cultural shock”. this prepares for a new construction.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Craig wrote:

    To my mind, basically, what it has all come down to is that the current ruling Institutions of the Baha’i Faith have decided that the Faith is to be completely destroyed in every land on Earth.

    Dear Companions in research:

    I don’t see this as a “destruction” but to a revolution in whole social functioning. A “new creation” not in the atoms, but in the organising of our spiritual, social and hence material lives in this world of creation.

    Exactly as it happened when Tahirih withdrew her veil and when the Quran passage on the great reversal was read.

    My new understanding is that the UHJ is performing the “great reversal” where as promised in all the scriptures, the humble will be exalted and the proud abased. A society that will be based on offering each other service and not trying to be served by others.

    As always, change will bring about disruption before allowing for a new order to become apparent;

    This is painful, but necessary. The process was described by Alvin Toffler in the 1970s in his book the “Future Shock”.

    When society evolves we all undergo a destruction of our automatic functions that leads to an adaptation crisis, a sort of “cultural shock”. this prepares for a new construction.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Craig wrote:

    To my mind, basically, what it has all come down to is that the current ruling Institutions of the Baha’i Faith have decided that the Faith is to be completely destroyed in every land on Earth.

    Dear Companions in research:

    I don’t see this as a “destruction” but to a revolution in whole social functioning. A “new creation” not in the atoms, but in the organising of our spiritual, social and hence material lives in this world of creation.

    Exactly as it happened when Tahirih withdrew her veil and when the Quran passage on the great reversal was read.

    My new understanding is that the UHJ is performing the “great reversal” where as promised in all the scriptures, the humble will be exalted and the proud abased. A society that will be based on offering each other service and not trying to be served by others.
    [/quote]

    Farhan,

    Thank you for your post.

    So you are saying that the Nine World Executives of the Universal House of Justice as they progress in election after election from the ITC Think Tank for the next 800 years are now conducting the world wide social engineering of every society on Earth so that anyone who completes the Ruhi Full Sequence of Courses will automatically ascend to the highest positions on Earth in every human field of endeavor? Am I getting this right?

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Craig wrote:

    To my mind, basically, what it has all come down to is that the current ruling Institutions of the Baha’i Faith have decided that the Faith is to be completely destroyed in every land on Earth.

    Dear Companions in research:

    I don’t see this as a “destruction” but to a revolution in whole social functioning. A “new creation” not in the atoms, but in the organising of our spiritual, social and hence material lives in this world of creation.

    Exactly as it happened when Tahirih withdrew her veil and when the Quran passage on the great reversal was read.

    My new understanding is that the UHJ is performing the “great reversal” where as promised in all the scriptures, the humble will be exalted and the proud abased. A society that will be based on offering each other service and not trying to be served by others.
    [/quote]

    Farhan,

    Thank you for your post.

    So you are saying that the Nine World Executives of the Universal House of Justice as they progress in election after election from the ITC Think Tank for the next 800 years are now conducting the world wide social engineering of every society on Earth so that anyone who completes the Ruhi Full Sequence of Courses will automatically ascend to the highest positions on Earth in every human field of endeavor? Am I getting this right?

  • Grover

    Hi EP,

    Thats very interesting.

    [quote post="507"]Recognition of the corporation’s collective myths enables meaningful and purposive common action.[/quote]

    I wonder what would happen if all the Baha’is came to a collective realisation that “entry by troops” would never happen, that Baha’u’llah’s “healing medicine” wasn’t particularly healing, that the majority of the world wasn’t particularly “receptive” to the “pure word”. “Entry by troops”, “healing medicine”, “receptivity” and the effect of the “pure word” are common myths (fantasy, without reality) propagated throughout the Baha’i Faith by people pretending to be knowledgeable. I may be misinterpreting what Gebser meant by myths though.

    [quote post="507"]The integral organization is able to hold different perspectives and different value systems. The deficient rational, perspectival consciousness is unable to do this. The rational organization prefers the security of one truth to the freedom and limitless possibility of many. The assumption of a single reality still lurks behind the fantasy of a unitary corporate culture.[/quote]

    I think this is really important. I believe as a scientist and science teacher that there is one physical reality, but we all see that reality from dfferent perspectives depending on our upbringing, culture, education, knowledge, and experience, and also depending on the tools we use to study and interpret that reality. But no one person can ever lay claim to ever having a complete grasp of that reality because to do so would require infinite knowledge, etc. Because our knowledge, etc, is so limited, no person could ever claim to know the “truth”.

    I’m beginning to believe its far better to adopt or become familiar with a wide range of religious perspectives rather than become stuck in one such as the Baha’i Faith and eventually become disappointed when you realise that it doesn’t really deliver the goods.

  • Grover

    Hi EP,

    Thats very interesting.

    [quote post="507"]Recognition of the corporation’s collective myths enables meaningful and purposive common action.[/quote]

    I wonder what would happen if all the Baha’is came to a collective realisation that “entry by troops” would never happen, that Baha’u’llah’s “healing medicine” wasn’t particularly healing, that the majority of the world wasn’t particularly “receptive” to the “pure word”. “Entry by troops”, “healing medicine”, “receptivity” and the effect of the “pure word” are common myths (fantasy, without reality) propagated throughout the Baha’i Faith by people pretending to be knowledgeable. I may be misinterpreting what Gebser meant by myths though.

    [quote post="507"]The integral organization is able to hold different perspectives and different value systems. The deficient rational, perspectival consciousness is unable to do this. The rational organization prefers the security of one truth to the freedom and limitless possibility of many. The assumption of a single reality still lurks behind the fantasy of a unitary corporate culture.[/quote]

    I think this is really important. I believe as a scientist and science teacher that there is one physical reality, but we all see that reality from dfferent perspectives depending on our upbringing, culture, education, knowledge, and experience, and also depending on the tools we use to study and interpret that reality. But no one person can ever lay claim to ever having a complete grasp of that reality because to do so would require infinite knowledge, etc. Because our knowledge, etc, is so limited, no person could ever claim to know the “truth”.

    I’m beginning to believe its far better to adopt or become familiar with a wide range of religious perspectives rather than become stuck in one such as the Baha’i Faith and eventually become disappointed when you realise that it doesn’t really deliver the goods.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]

    Grover wrote:

    I’m beginning to believe its far better to adopt or become familiar with a wide range of religious perspectives rather than become stuck in one such as the Baha’i Faith and eventually become disappointed when you realize that it doesn’t really deliver the goods.[/quote]

    Hi Grover,

    Seeing the value of a “wide range of religious perspectives” was what the Baha’i Faith was all about back when I joined it in 1971. It was free wheeling, energized, beautiful open discussion person to person in the rank and file. Totally liberating high energy. It was all about “What do you think, what do you feel ?” in an amazing spiritual inquiry into life. We called it “Independent Investigation of Truth”. I thought it was a great idea.

    But what happened was that that raw energy scared and eventually was opposed by the weak psyches of the controller personalities from the lizard brain in the Baha’i Faith. Their lifetime incumbency personal psychological addictions took over all the positions in the organization. These are driven people. Their “service” is their personal 12 step program at trying to stay sane. It is the same old, same old in human history in “organized religion”.

    In the Baha’i Faith went from the mentality of Jesus of Nazareth (30 AD)to the mentality of the Grand Inquisitor Tom??s de Torquemada (1420–1498 AD) in just 45 years with the YEAR ZERO top down social engineering mentality of the rise of the ideologues of the ITC Faith and the complete hijacking of the electoral processes of the Baha’i Faith. It now looks like YEAR ZERO mentality to BE the Creator and “Create a New Man” (TM) just can’t be overcome in organizational systems of idolatry that want to actually BE “God on Earth”. The same old, same old in organized religion. The same deranged petty brain chemistry.

    When I saw Peter Khan speak at the Milwaukee Convention in the Spring of 2001, I nearly fell out of my seat. The man tongue lashed lectured 10,000 people in the exact same tone of this below video. I had never heard of the man. I was absolutely astonished. WTF had happened to my once beautiful and very human religion?

    Never, never, never give power to people who want to “Create a New Man” (TM) by marching everyone into some jungle in their minds and setting up the “psychological camps” of the arch top down controllers.

    But, hey, not a bad mix job on their religious organization’s version of this tune! Pretty darn professional! Nice voice mix on the chorus.

    The Baha’i Faith went from love in free and open individual hearts to this mentality in my lifetime:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-_Z79d098

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]

    Grover wrote:

    I’m beginning to believe its far better to adopt or become familiar with a wide range of religious perspectives rather than become stuck in one such as the Baha’i Faith and eventually become disappointed when you realize that it doesn’t really deliver the goods.[/quote]

    Hi Grover,

    Seeing the value of a “wide range of religious perspectives” was what the Baha’i Faith was all about back when I joined it in 1971. It was free wheeling, energized, beautiful open discussion person to person in the rank and file. Totally liberating high energy. It was all about “What do you think, what do you feel ?” in an amazing spiritual inquiry into life. We called it “Independent Investigation of Truth”. I thought it was a great idea.

    But what happened was that that raw energy scared and eventually was opposed by the weak psyches of the controller personalities from the lizard brain in the Baha’i Faith. Their lifetime incumbency personal psychological addictions took over all the positions in the organization. These are driven people. Their “service” is their personal 12 step program at trying to stay sane. It is the same old, same old in human history in “organized religion”.

    In the Baha’i Faith went from the mentality of Jesus of Nazareth (30 AD)to the mentality of the Grand Inquisitor Tom??s de Torquemada (1420–1498 AD) in just 45 years with the YEAR ZERO top down social engineering mentality of the rise of the ideologues of the ITC Faith and the complete hijacking of the electoral processes of the Baha’i Faith. It now looks like YEAR ZERO mentality to BE the Creator and “Create a New Man” (TM) just can’t be overcome in organizational systems of idolatry that want to actually BE “God on Earth”. The same old, same old in organized religion. The same deranged petty brain chemistry.

    When I saw Peter Khan speak at the Milwaukee Convention in the Spring of 2001, I nearly fell out of my seat. The man tongue lashed lectured 10,000 people in the exact same tone of this below video. I had never heard of the man. I was absolutely astonished. WTF had happened to my once beautiful and very human religion?

    Never, never, never give power to people who want to “Create a New Man” (TM) by marching everyone into some jungle in their minds and setting up the “psychological camps” of the arch top down controllers.

    But, hey, not a bad mix job on their religious organization’s version of this tune! Pretty darn professional! Nice voice mix on the chorus.

    The Baha’i Faith went from love in free and open individual hearts to this mentality in my lifetime:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-_Z79d098

  • farhan

    Craig wrote:

    so that anyone who completes the Ruhi Full Sequence of Courses will automatically ascend to the highest positions on Earth in every human field of endeavor? Am I getting this right?

    Dear Craig,
    What I am saying is that human society tends to be naturally consumer oriented, power and ambition oriented. What religion comes to teach us is to become service oriented in the short span of life in this nether world.

    The Rui courses are designed to teach those of us that are not already in the field of service us to become service oriented and those who are already involved in service to become more detached and loving in their services. Those who do book one learn to organise devotionals, book two to visit and help people who need help, book three to help with kids, book four o organised commemorations, book five to look after junior youth, book six to organise teaching campaigns and book seven to become a tutor for tutoring future tutors to tutor would be tutors….

    Those who imagine that on having done book seven they have finished the seven valleys, have completely missed the point in doing Ruhi classes.

    As we advance in our understanding of Baha’u’llah’s revelation, we understand that the highest position is that of service, be it at grass roots or in the BWC.

  • Farhan YAZDANI

    Craig wrote:

    so that anyone who completes the Ruhi Full Sequence of Courses will automatically ascend to the highest positions on Earth in every human field of endeavor? Am I getting this right?

    Dear Craig,
    What I am saying is that human society tends to be naturally consumer oriented, power and ambition oriented. What religion comes to teach us is to become service oriented in the short span of life in this nether world.

    The Rui courses are designed to teach those of us that are not already in the field of service us to become service oriented and those who are already involved in service to become more detached and loving in their services. Those who do book one learn to organise devotionals, book two to visit and help people who need help, book three to help with kids, book four o organised commemorations, book five to look after junior youth, book six to organise teaching campaigns and book seven to become a tutor for tutoring future tutors to tutor would be tutors….

    Those who imagine that on having done book seven they have finished the seven valleys, have completely missed the point in doing Ruhi classes.

    As we advance in our understanding of Baha’u’llah’s revelation, we understand that the highest position is that of service, be it at grass roots or in the BWC.

  • farhan

    Grover wrote:

    I wonder what would happen if all the Baha’is came to a collective realisation that “entry by troops” would never happen, that Baha’u’llah’s “healing medicine” wasn’t particularly healing, that the majority of the world wasn’t particularly “receptive” to the “pure word”. “Entry by troops”, “healing medicine”, “receptivity” and the effect of the “pure word” are common myths (fantasy, without reality) propagated throughout the Baha’i Faith by people pretending to be knowledgeable.

    Grover, we can imagine all that, but although I am not sure what part of the Baha’i world you are looking at, and what painful misdeeds you have suffered from at the hands of your fellow Baha’is, I can say for sure that entry by troops is happening all over the world;

    By entry by troops we mean that whereas previously we would painstakingly take a person to his declaration and than abandon him, we now convey a tool of spiritualization that Baha’is and non-Baha’is adopt by groups and bunches and apply by themselves, irrespective of declarations or not.

    As a result of these activities, Baha’is and non-Baha’is become involved in these activities. Those who declare are already engaged in activities and no longer abandoned to themselves.

    This makes for more independent and viable communities. Teaching was before the main activity of an LSA. This has been taken over by the institute process. The LSA’s will be gradually taking over the more boring administrative tasks that result from the Institute activities.

    After a slowing down of the teaching work in order to prepare the �catering� activities necessary to consolidate the teaching efforts, enrolments are now on a sharp rise in France: some 150 new believers during the last year: people in a position to serve, and not only in a position to demand attention.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Grover wrote:

    I wonder what would happen if all the Baha’is came to a collective realisation that “entry by troops” would never happen, that Baha’u’llah’s “healing medicine” wasn’t particularly healing, that the majority of the world wasn’t particularly “receptive” to the “pure word”. “Entry by troops”, “healing medicine”, “receptivity” and the effect of the “pure word” are common myths (fantasy, without reality) propagated throughout the Baha’i Faith by people pretending to be knowledgeable.

    Grover, we can imagine all that, but although I am not sure what part of the Baha’i world you are looking at, and what painful misdeeds you have suffered from at the hands of your fellow Baha’is, I can say for sure that entry by troops is happening all over the world;

    By entry by troops we mean that whereas previously we would painstakingly take a person to his declaration and than abandon him, we now convey a tool of spiritualization that Baha’is and non-Baha’is adopt by groups and bunches and apply by themselves, irrespective of declarations or not.

    As a result of these activities, Baha’is and non-Baha’is become involved in these activities. Those who declare are already engaged in activities and no longer abandoned to themselves.

    This makes for more independent and viable communities. Teaching was before the main activity of an LSA. This has been taken over by the institute process. The LSA’s will be gradually taking over the more boring administrative tasks that result from the Institute activities.

    After a slowing down of the teaching work in order to prepare the �catering� activities necessary to consolidate the teaching efforts, enrolments are now on a sharp rise in France: some 150 new believers during the last year: people in a position to serve, and not only in a position to demand attention.

  • Grover

    Lol Craig, I don’t know how you manage to find those video clips, but that one was pretty horrendous. If Peter Khan was talking like that, it must’ve been pretty shocking indeed.

    When I became a Baha’i, the community I belonged to had pretty lively, engaging, no holds barred discussions because a lot of pretty intelligent people were interested in the Faith back then, and the majority of the community were enrolled Baha’is.

    I moved away from that community to go to University, and found that other communities I went to didn’t have the same kind of discussions, the majority were old Baha’is or people whose parents were Baha’is. I also found that increasingly people were trying to control the discussions in these other communities, preventing cross talk and preventing ideas from being explored or challenged. Now with Ruhi, the discussion is very strictly controlled or non-existent, with all the intellectual excitement of watching paint dry. I guess it was all the furore generated by Talisman etc that made the “powers that be” want to limit any kind of intellectual input for fear of us reaching undesirable conclusions.

    The old days was when we gained some decent insight from those freewheeling discussions. Nowadays, “spiritual insight” is when you’ve regurgitated something from Ruhi.

    Such a shame….

  • Grover

    Lol Craig, I don’t know how you manage to find those video clips, but that one was pretty horrendous. If Peter Khan was talking like that, it must’ve been pretty shocking indeed.

    When I became a Baha’i, the community I belonged to had pretty lively, engaging, no holds barred discussions because a lot of pretty intelligent people were interested in the Faith back then, and the majority of the community were enrolled Baha’is.

    I moved away from that community to go to University, and found that other communities I went to didn’t have the same kind of discussions, the majority were old Baha’is or people whose parents were Baha’is. I also found that increasingly people were trying to control the discussions in these other communities, preventing cross talk and preventing ideas from being explored or challenged. Now with Ruhi, the discussion is very strictly controlled or non-existent, with all the intellectual excitement of watching paint dry. I guess it was all the furore generated by Talisman etc that made the “powers that be” want to limit any kind of intellectual input for fear of us reaching undesirable conclusions.

    The old days was when we gained some decent insight from those freewheeling discussions. Nowadays, “spiritual insight” is when you’ve regurgitated something from Ruhi.

    Such a shame….

  • farhan

    Grover wrote:

    Now with Ruhi, the discussion is very strictly controlled or non-existent, with all the intellectual excitement of watching paint dry. I guess it was all the furore generated by Talisman etc that made the “powers that be” want to limit any kind of intellectual input for fear of us reaching undesirable conclusions.

    Grover, you are right that in Ruhi the discussions are controlled so that those attending can finish the course in a given time, and have a precise vision of some of the elementary Baha’I concepts that hey can easily transmit around them.

    More interesting questions are recorded and referred to deepening sessions elsewhere.

    Ruhi has never been compulsory for all, but an option for those who wish to develop their serving capacities and Ruhi was never intended as a substitute for Baha’i studies, deepening, summer schools, fire-sides, etc etc that we had before. We need some people doing Ruhi AND some others doing the other jobs.

    Ruhi is intended to develop talents for service, and this entails being precise and to the point.

    As a teacher you certainly understand that in some courses you are to liberate the imaginative characteristics of students, and in other courses, their self discipline and conciseness. You don’t get people learn poetry by heart imaginatively, but you help them liberate their imagination in order to understand the poetry they are learning by heart. Both are complementary.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Grover wrote:

    Now with Ruhi, the discussion is very strictly controlled or non-existent, with all the intellectual excitement of watching paint dry. I guess it was all the furore generated by Talisman etc that made the “powers that be” want to limit any kind of intellectual input for fear of us reaching undesirable conclusions.

    Grover, you are right that in Ruhi the discussions are controlled so that those attending can finish the course in a given time, and have a precise vision of some of the elementary Baha’I concepts that hey can easily transmit around them.

    More interesting questions are recorded and referred to deepening sessions elsewhere.

    Ruhi has never been compulsory for all, but an option for those who wish to develop their serving capacities and Ruhi was never intended as a substitute for Baha’i studies, deepening, summer schools, fire-sides, etc etc that we had before. We need some people doing Ruhi AND some others doing the other jobs.

    Ruhi is intended to develop talents for service, and this entails being precise and to the point.

    As a teacher you certainly understand that in some courses you are to liberate the imaginative characteristics of students, and in other courses, their self discipline and conciseness. You don’t get people learn poetry by heart imaginatively, but you help them liberate their imagination in order to understand the poetry they are learning by heart. Both are complementary.

  • Grover

    Hi Farhan,

    [quote post="507"]Grover, we can imagine all that, but although I am not sure what part of the Baha’i world you are looking at, and what painful misdeeds you have suffered from at the hands of your fellow Baha’is, I can say for sure that entry by troops is happening all over the world; [/quote]

    While I’ve had to put up with a few things and been witness to a whole lot more, they’ve been nothing compared to what some people on this blog had suffered, but its enough to make me realise that the Faith is like one big shiney rosey apple with a very rotten core. For your interest I’m still a “Baha’i in good standing” although a very inactive one at the moment.

    Entry by troops is certainly not happening in my country. In fact we got the big lecture about “girding up the loins of endeavour”, “reconsecrating ourselves”, “dedicating ourselves to the five year plan”, “renewed focus on teaching” and “marching on to ultimate victory”. Apparently people were having fun sitting round doing Ruhi endless times and eating buttered scones with jam and cream, but not getting out and spreading the “pure word”.

    I heard from a friend that Auzzie was having exit by troops. I don’t know what its like there now, but apparently new Baha’is were getting scared off by the persian communities.

    In Fiji and Tonga I understand the communities are pretty static, mainly due to very strong traditional religious and social ties.

    But if all is going well in your country then more power to you.

    [quote post="507"]Ruhi has never been compulsory for all, but an option for those who wish to develop their serving capacities and Ruhi was never intended as a substitute for Baha’i studies, deepening, summer schools, fire-sides, etc etc that we had before. We need some people doing Ruhi AND some others doing the other jobs.[/quote]

    That’s what has never been understood in my country. Everything else ground to a halt, and people at summer school were going “Ruhi is the new way to teach the Faith” in a frothy mouthed lunatic way. Youth don’t even have conferences anymore apart from the yearly national youth conference.

    [quote post="507"]As a teacher you certainly understand that in some courses you are to liberate the imaginative characteristics of students, and in other courses, their self discipline and conciseness. You don’t get people learn poetry by heart imaginatively, but you help them liberate their imagination in order to understand the poetry they are learning by heart. Both are complementary.[/quote]

    Well I certainly don’t teach them science by rote learning, it makes them very poor problem solvers and absolutely useless at doing any kind of research.

  • Grover

    Hi Farhan,

    [quote post="507"]Grover, we can imagine all that, but although I am not sure what part of the Baha’i world you are looking at, and what painful misdeeds you have suffered from at the hands of your fellow Baha’is, I can say for sure that entry by troops is happening all over the world; [/quote]

    While I’ve had to put up with a few things and been witness to a whole lot more, they’ve been nothing compared to what some people on this blog had suffered, but its enough to make me realise that the Faith is like one big shiney rosey apple with a very rotten core. For your interest I’m still a “Baha’i in good standing” although a very inactive one at the moment.

    Entry by troops is certainly not happening in my country. In fact we got the big lecture about “girding up the loins of endeavour”, “reconsecrating ourselves”, “dedicating ourselves to the five year plan”, “renewed focus on teaching” and “marching on to ultimate victory”. Apparently people were having fun sitting round doing Ruhi endless times and eating buttered scones with jam and cream, but not getting out and spreading the “pure word”.

    I heard from a friend that Auzzie was having exit by troops. I don’t know what its like there now, but apparently new Baha’is were getting scared off by the persian communities.

    In Fiji and Tonga I understand the communities are pretty static, mainly due to very strong traditional religious and social ties.

    But if all is going well in your country then more power to you.

    [quote post="507"]Ruhi has never been compulsory for all, but an option for those who wish to develop their serving capacities and Ruhi was never intended as a substitute for Baha’i studies, deepening, summer schools, fire-sides, etc etc that we had before. We need some people doing Ruhi AND some others doing the other jobs.[/quote]

    That’s what has never been understood in my country. Everything else ground to a halt, and people at summer school were going “Ruhi is the new way to teach the Faith” in a frothy mouthed lunatic way. Youth don’t even have conferences anymore apart from the yearly national youth conference.

    [quote post="507"]As a teacher you certainly understand that in some courses you are to liberate the imaginative characteristics of students, and in other courses, their self discipline and conciseness. You don’t get people learn poetry by heart imaginatively, but you help them liberate their imagination in order to understand the poetry they are learning by heart. Both are complementary.[/quote]

    Well I certainly don’t teach them science by rote learning, it makes them very poor problem solvers and absolutely useless at doing any kind of research.

  • ep

    RE: MORE FAILED BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION AND MANIPULATING PUBLIC OPINION. (my comments are below the following excerpts)

    [quote comment=""]Hi Farhan,

    [quote post="507"]Grover, we can imagine all that, but although I am not sure what part of the Baha’i world you are looking at, and what painful misdeeds you have suffered from at the hands of your fellow Baha’is, I can say for sure that entry by troops is happening all over the world; [/quote]

    While I’ve had to put up with a few things and been witness to a whole lot more, they’ve been nothing compared to what some people on this blog had suffered, but its enough to make me realise that the Faith is like one big shiney rosey apple with a very rotten core. For your interest I’m still a “Baha’i in good standing” although a very inactive one at the moment.

    Entry by troops is certainly not happening in my country. In fact we got the big lecture about “girding up the loins of endeavour”, “reconsecrating ourselves”, “dedicating ourselves to the five year plan”, “renewed focus on teaching” and “marching on to ultimate victory”.

    But if all is going well in your country then more power to you.

    [quote post="507"]Ruhi has never been compulsory for all, but an option for those who wish to develop their serving capacities and Ruhi was never intended as a substitute for Baha’i studies, deepening, summer schools, fire-sides, etc etc that we had before. We need some people doing Ruhi AND some others doing the other jobs.[/quote]

    That’s what has never been understood in my country. Everything else ground to a halt, and people at summer school were going “Ruhi is the new way to teach the Faith” in a frothy mouthed lunatic way.

    [quote post="507"]As a teacher you certainly understand that in some courses you are to liberate the imaginative characteristics of students, and in other courses, their self discipline and conciseness. You don’t get people learn poetry by heart imaginatively, but you help them liberate their imagination in order to understand the poetry they are learning by heart. Both are complementary.[/quote]

    Well I certainly don’t teach them science by rote learning, it makes them very poor problem solvers and absolutely useless at doing any kind of research.[/quote]

    * * * * * * * * * * *

    Grover &Farhan &All,

    fwiw: I heard a “mainstream/conventional” bahai scholar say that the NSA members/staff overseeing bahai scholarship are “evil” and “stupid”, and that it was a game to “get things past them” as much as possible AT AN “INSIDE” INSTITUTIONAL LEVEL. That tells you all you need to know about “rot”. Scholarship (on the occasions when it is done right) is one of the important mechanisms for internal organizational accountability/honesty and “self-correction”.

    Grover, as a scientist and teacher, you should work for reform within bahai as much as possible. there are good bahais in the n.america and europe that you can connect with that have been working on science-religion issues for quite some time. some of the older ones are discouraged, etc., but they have interesting stories and ideas. some younger ones are moving forward in exploring cognitive theory, neurosciences, lingustics, etc., all very valuable, rich areas for religious scholars. The UHJ itself (or one of its letter writers) encouraged bahai scholars to explore and contribute to new “integrative paradigms”. (unfortunately that advice that has gone mostly ignored as far as I can tell.)

    * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Anyways, I’ve seen three instances of mass conversion to bahai in the USA, and heard of others from a bunch of international bahais over 20+ years.

    The problematic “reality” of what usually actually happens (which the inventors of Ruhi presumably know, and were attempting to “solve”) has no resemblance to Farhan’s sanitized, utopian version of bahai improvement and institutional reinvention.

    The first thing to realize is that all human institutions tend to become dysfunctional, and then they attempt to redeem themselves in the eyes of the “employee/stockholder/patron/believer/public” through a process of BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION.

    (Indeed, there are “other” archetypes, memes and models of social change, or reinvention, that eternally await for the predictable forms of institutional failure so that they can to reassert themselves in people’s thinking. So, the bureaucratic memes cyclically reassert their “inner logic” to be proactive in response to any challenge.)

    In many cases, “viral marketing” or mass media is used to, at first, promote the “new paradigm” (or method, process, vision, etc.), then to cover up its defects and shortcomings by MANIPULATING PUBLIC OPINION. People like Farhan volunteer to promote such manipulation by trying to present the bureaucratic meme in its “best light”, and implying that any divergence of opinion is “godless”, “materialistic” and “against progress”.

    More vicious polemicists (like AnonZZZ) work the edges of bahai culture, attacking dissidents in a less organized way. (did you ever notice that Farhan criticizes nonconformists about their “style”, but never the vicious polemicists? that is a typical anti/pattern.)

    It is very efficient, from a “survival viewpoint”, for a dysfunctional institution (or a dysfunctional organizational culture or subculture), to simply fool people into thinking that things are (or can be) different and better, “if only” the people at the bottom of the organization understand that they (and not the bureaucrats and leadership elites) are the “cause” of the problems/solutions.

    As I’ve commented before, it is absurd in the extreme for the leadership elites in a top-down organization culture such as bahai to propose that the solution to all their failures is “bottom-up process” (which the top-down process just spent 40 or 50 years destroying). This is why feudal and imperial governance was overturned by a democratizing paradigm (brought about by evolution, not revelation). Unfortunately Shoghi Effendi’s writings on world governance clearly establish that a global-imperial theocracy (hybrided islamic version of Christendom) that is impervious to democratizing tendencies is the goal.

    The bahai teaching “spin machine” represents all of the above as warm-fuzzy, liberal, feel-good, progressive, humanitarian, unitary stuff in order to gain converts (to “meet the need for belonging” in the “monkey” part of the human brain involving Jungian myths and archetypes).

    Make no mistake, the main motive for people to join bahai is the same as our primate ancestors had when banding together to share food, scratch for bugs in each other’s hair, become the dominant alpha male or female to pass on genes (or serve them and their off-spring), etc.

    The need for social bonding is profoundly hard-wired in the human brain, and is only occassionaly overcome by the areas of the brain that evolved for “higher thought” (language, etc.)

    (when I was a kid, it was frequently stated in popular culture that “the human brain is only used 20% of the time”. what that “really means” is that higher cognition, such as language, math, and abstract reasoning, is only one of three major parts of human consciousness. the parts are: the inner, most primitive “lizard” brain, the middle “monkey” brain, and the outer “rational-modern” brain.)

    However, a lie is a lie, and eventually people either painfully unearth the lies and find “something better”, or the lies grow like cancer, eventually “rotting the core” (as Grover states).

    Like many patterns in nature and human behavior, the (anti)pattern of such bahai rot has a fractal nature. It can be seen in miniature form at the edge of the growth pattern, then as the larger picture emerges, it reappears from the underlying behavoral formula/algorithm/template.

    In the case of Ruhi, there was a healthy growth pattern in rural south america (which apparently rests on a foundation of NON-BAHAI ideas from the world of development and international aid work! very ironic given the bahai scriptural “purity myth”.) that was transplanted, then “colonized” by the prevailing (unhealthy) antipattern of (cyclical) bahai institutional reinvention.

    So much for generalizations, now for the “specifics” of the “mass teaching” processes that I’ve personally seen.

    (1) I was coerced into signing a declaration card in the early 70s by people that were involved in the “mass teaching” in South Carolina in which a very large number of poor, rural, undereducated blacks converted to bahai. Many stories about what “really” happened when the “mass teaching” was “stopped” are in circulation. In one case, I was told by a well educated black mass teacher that moved from california to s. carolina to help administer, that the NSA members took specific actions to first manipulate the election stage at the national convention to keep (dissenting/anti-establishment) poor blacks “out of contention” for NSA seats, then to scheme to stop the mass teaching because it was “out of control”. Apparently the many bizarre events that happened during the mass teaching process gave the NSA an excuse to hold on to power given the enormous voting block of new bahais that was developing in s. carolina that would have soon learned how elitist and racist the NSA had been in previous decades, and “voted the bast*rds out”.

    The message was “No uppity blacks need apply” (for NSA jobs).

    Ironically, the one “uppity” black that was allowed on the NSA, Glenford Mitchell, is from the West Indies, where a common attitude of superiority is held towards “low class” blacks in the USA!

    (2) Watsonville/Salinas, California. Mass teaching of “campesinos” (migrant farm workers, mostly mexican peasants) and “consolidation” process based on “devotions” and “service” in the early 80s.
    (yes, these ideas are not “new” in Ruhi, they are “borrowed”)

    This mass teaching was driven by innovative bahais that had been “hippies”, and/or were inspired by the social justice movements of the 60s, etc., who wanted to apply bahai ideas about social-economic “development” to the conditions of exploited farm workers.

    They were moderately successful in gaining converts (hundreds?), and had two major problems with the bahai establishment and/or wider bahai culture:

    a) middle-class “city bahais” would show up on the weekends for a spiritual “quick fix” (like a drug “high”) from “getting converts”, but would not follow up by participating in the consolidation process and “service” projects that were aimed at “consolidating” the teaching by making “actual improvements” in the lives of the new, poor converts.

    Eventually the project leads had to impose draconian rules that only “city bahais” that showed up for days of spiritual cleansing (meditation and prayer) would be allowed to go into the “service projects” to “get converts”.

    This was the first time that I had ever seen an honest, quasi-institutional recognition of the underlying spiritual rot and degeneracy in bahai culture. The Auxilary Bored and Continental Counselors fully supported the need to insulate the mass conversion and consolidation processes from spiritually polluted “city bahais”.

    b) the surrounding “suburban” bahai communities and assemblies (which is where the project leads came from) were mostly hostile and unsupportive, so apparently there was insufficient local support to sustain the “grass roots” efforts and resources needed for the social-economic-development (SED) projects that were integral to the “consolidation”.

    The basic problem was that middle-class american and persian bahais were not “comfortable” with poor, spanish-speaking-only, farm workers showing up at bahai events. While there was certainly an element of pure racism at times, I think the larger problem was that the “needs” of the farm workers was felt to be so overwhelming that the “conventional” bahais simply could not fulfill them and maintain their usual, comfortable middle-class lives. The cognitive dissonance of belonging to a religion that talks about social justice, but does not actually “deliver” onit, was too great, and the unsupportive “city bahais” withdrew into their happy bubble of committee meetings and “firesides”, tea and cookies, and floats and parades and brochures. (following the pattern of the larger, non-bahai, society’s “political non-involvement” in social justice and economic-political reform. hahaha.)

    Several of the mass teaching project leads invested considerable personal and business resources in the projects, which is how the process got going in the first place, but eventually exhaustion set in. (a typical antipattern in bahai culture).

    So, even with regional and continental institutional support, the innovations that were developed in the “salinas” mass teching experiment were not sufficient to sustain mass conversion and consolidation.

    3) grass valley, california. a large number (100-150?) of ex-urbanite and counterculture people (and people attached to their social networks) converted to bahai in a year or two due to the efforts of a new bahai. The new bahai was an energetic spiritual therapist (counselor, new-age psychologist) with considerable intellectual depth and skills (who fully participated in the last one or two “talisman” mysticism conferences at Bosch).

    Even though most of the converts were white, middle-class, new-age, liberal-progressive, the existing bahai communities and assemblies in the area were unresponsive and hostile to the needs of the converts to varying levels. The project lead was sucked into various (now failed) “bureaucratic reinvention” processes in the region, and eventually became exhausted by the pointless and futile nature of larger bahai politics and local indifference and lack of support.

    So, there you have it: the history of three major bahai “mass teaching” processes in the USA that were COMPLETELY UNSUSTAINABLE.

    Now, Farhan will probably say “so what?”. He will explain that the geniuses at the BWC-ITC (and sub-orgs) know all this, and have seen and documented it hundreds of times all over the bahai world in “3rd world” settings, etc., and have put forth a “reform” campaign in the “institute process” to give the bahai world a tool for “reconstructing” a new version of the bahai faith above and beyond the majority of rotten, messed up individual bahais, bahai assemblies and communities as currently exists.

    Two problems with the Farhanian analysis:

    1) the “reform” process is largely dishonest in that it maintains the existing “disconnect” between the present time and any “collective memory” of the past problems and failures of bahai institutions and bahai culture.

    A few times the BWC has been OPENLY honest about the failures of NSAs/LSAs, but things get quickly covered up when someone’s old friend or persian cousin is embarassed. Of course behind the scenes, the “elite” people from one “faction” honestly trash other “factions” in secret, and they all posture in public to seem as “holy” as possible to the masses to avoid open scrutiny.

    In any case, unless bahai culture learns how to be much more honest about its past mistakes, the lessons of history will be repeated over and over until they are learned.

    It is well understood by the “non-bahai” world how to create institutional structures to maintain collective memory of past failures and require accountability, but those things are lacking in the underlying foundational documents (scriptures/etc.) and lacking in bahai culture in general (probably since it comes from shiism).

    2) bad scripture, and a strong resistance to theological reinterpretation and reform have led to regression to the reenactment of failed version of earlier paradigms.

    It is well understood in the fields of social and organizational theory that when under stress, organizations and leadership elites tend to regress to previous levels of development (“become backward and authoritarian”).

    Bahai scripture is full of uncritically backward theology and metaphysics, providing a “fertile field” from which to justify autocratic or authoritarian leadership styles/methods, fundamentalist ideologies, etc.

    So, yes, Farhan is correct that the bahai bureaucracy has launched, again, a major attempt at reform of how bahais operate/live/think, in hopes that grand and noble ideas will be attained and fullfilled, progress will occurr, success and happiness will bless all souls, and so forth.

    I predict that it won’t work, but not because of the nefarious and evil dissidents, critics and non-conformists on the internet, but because there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that the bahai leadership elites have the courage or honesty to be open about all the previous, failed attempts at BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION, and “open up” the system to “real change”.

    So, the antipattern continues, people will invest their hopes and dreams in a bogus religion, and will eventually bitterly depart, or become zombies whose minds and hearts are enslaved by the bureacrats.

    Meanwhile, the glorious kosmic evolution of world culture goes forward regardless, and bahai is left in a teeny-tiny corner of the dustbin of history.

    Adeu amics!

    Eric P.
    Sacramento, Ca.
    (ex-bahai, after 30+ years)

  • ep

    RE: MORE FAILED BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION AND MANIPULATING PUBLIC OPINION. (my comments are below the following excerpts)

    [quote comment=""]Hi Farhan,

    [quote post="507"]Grover, we can imagine all that, but although I am not sure what part of the Baha’i world you are looking at, and what painful misdeeds you have suffered from at the hands of your fellow Baha’is, I can say for sure that entry by troops is happening all over the world; [/quote]

    While I’ve had to put up with a few things and been witness to a whole lot more, they’ve been nothing compared to what some people on this blog had suffered, but its enough to make me realise that the Faith is like one big shiney rosey apple with a very rotten core. For your interest I’m still a “Baha’i in good standing” although a very inactive one at the moment.

    Entry by troops is certainly not happening in my country. In fact we got the big lecture about “girding up the loins of endeavour”, “reconsecrating ourselves”, “dedicating ourselves to the five year plan”, “renewed focus on teaching” and “marching on to ultimate victory”.

    But if all is going well in your country then more power to you.

    [quote post="507"]Ruhi has never been compulsory for all, but an option for those who wish to develop their serving capacities and Ruhi was never intended as a substitute for Baha’i studies, deepening, summer schools, fire-sides, etc etc that we had before. We need some people doing Ruhi AND some others doing the other jobs.[/quote]

    That’s what has never been understood in my country. Everything else ground to a halt, and people at summer school were going “Ruhi is the new way to teach the Faith” in a frothy mouthed lunatic way.

    [quote post="507"]As a teacher you certainly understand that in some courses you are to liberate the imaginative characteristics of students, and in other courses, their self discipline and conciseness. You don’t get people learn poetry by heart imaginatively, but you help them liberate their imagination in order to understand the poetry they are learning by heart. Both are complementary.[/quote]

    Well I certainly don’t teach them science by rote learning, it makes them very poor problem solvers and absolutely useless at doing any kind of research.[/quote]

    * * * * * * * * * * *

    Grover &Farhan &All,

    fwiw: I heard a “mainstream/conventional” bahai scholar say that the NSA members/staff overseeing bahai scholarship are “evil” and “stupid”, and that it was a game to “get things past them” as much as possible AT AN “INSIDE” INSTITUTIONAL LEVEL. That tells you all you need to know about “rot”. Scholarship (on the occasions when it is done right) is one of the important mechanisms for internal organizational accountability/honesty and “self-correction”.

    Grover, as a scientist and teacher, you should work for reform within bahai as much as possible. there are good bahais in the n.america and europe that you can connect with that have been working on science-religion issues for quite some time. some of the older ones are discouraged, etc., but they have interesting stories and ideas. some younger ones are moving forward in exploring cognitive theory, neurosciences, lingustics, etc., all very valuable, rich areas for religious scholars. The UHJ itself (or one of its letter writers) encouraged bahai scholars to explore and contribute to new “integrative paradigms”. (unfortunately that advice that has gone mostly ignored as far as I can tell.)

    * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Anyways, I’ve seen three instances of mass conversion to bahai in the USA, and heard of others from a bunch of international bahais over 20+ years.

    The problematic “reality” of what usually actually happens (which the inventors of Ruhi presumably know, and were attempting to “solve”) has no resemblance to Farhan’s sanitized, utopian version of bahai improvement and institutional reinvention.

    The first thing to realize is that all human institutions tend to become dysfunctional, and then they attempt to redeem themselves in the eyes of the “employee/stockholder/patron/believer/public” through a process of BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION.

    (Indeed, there are “other” archetypes, memes and models of social change, or reinvention, that eternally await for the predictable forms of institutional failure so that they can to reassert themselves in people’s thinking. So, the bureaucratic memes cyclically reassert their “inner logic” to be proactive in response to any challenge.)

    In many cases, “viral marketing” or mass media is used to, at first, promote the “new paradigm” (or method, process, vision, etc.), then to cover up its defects and shortcomings by MANIPULATING PUBLIC OPINION. People like Farhan volunteer to promote such manipulation by trying to present the bureaucratic meme in its “best light”, and implying that any divergence of opinion is “godless”, “materialistic” and “against progress”.

    More vicious polemicists (like AnonZZZ) work the edges of bahai culture, attacking dissidents in a less organized way. (did you ever notice that Farhan criticizes nonconformists about their “style”, but never the vicious polemicists? that is a typical anti/pattern.)

    It is very efficient, from a “survival viewpoint”, for a dysfunctional institution (or a dysfunctional organizational culture or subculture), to simply fool people into thinking that things are (or can be) different and better, “if only” the people at the bottom of the organization understand that they (and not the bureaucrats and leadership elites) are the “cause” of the problems/solutions.

    As I’ve commented before, it is absurd in the extreme for the leadership elites in a top-down organization culture such as bahai to propose that the solution to all their failures is “bottom-up process” (which the top-down process just spent 40 or 50 years destroying). This is why feudal and imperial governance was overturned by a democratizing paradigm (brought about by evolution, not revelation). Unfortunately Shoghi Effendi’s writings on world governance clearly establish that a global-imperial theocracy (hybrided islamic version of Christendom) that is impervious to democratizing tendencies is the goal.

    The bahai teaching “spin machine” represents all of the above as warm-fuzzy, liberal, feel-good, progressive, humanitarian, unitary stuff in order to gain converts (to “meet the need for belonging” in the “monkey” part of the human brain involving Jungian myths and archetypes).

    Make no mistake, the main motive for people to join bahai is the same as our primate ancestors had when banding together to share food, scratch for bugs in each other’s hair, become the dominant alpha male or female to pass on genes (or serve them and their off-spring), etc.

    The need for social bonding is profoundly hard-wired in the human brain, and is only occassionaly overcome by the areas of the brain that evolved for “higher thought” (language, etc.)

    (when I was a kid, it was frequently stated in popular culture that “the human brain is only used 20% of the time”. what that “really means” is that higher cognition, such as language, math, and abstract reasoning, is only one of three major parts of human consciousness. the parts are: the inner, most primitive “lizard” brain, the middle “monkey” brain, and the outer “rational-modern” brain.)

    However, a lie is a lie, and eventually people either painfully unearth the lies and find “something better”, or the lies grow like cancer, eventually “rotting the core” (as Grover states).

    Like many patterns in nature and human behavior, the (anti)pattern of such bahai rot has a fractal nature. It can be seen in miniature form at the edge of the growth pattern, then as the larger picture emerges, it reappears from the underlying behavoral formula/algorithm/template.

    In the case of Ruhi, there was a healthy growth pattern in rural south america (which apparently rests on a foundation of NON-BAHAI ideas from the world of development and international aid work! very ironic given the bahai scriptural “purity myth”.) that was transplanted, then “colonized” by the prevailing (unhealthy) antipattern of (cyclical) bahai institutional reinvention.

    So much for generalizations, now for the “specifics” of the “mass teaching” processes that I’ve personally seen.

    (1) I was coerced into signing a declaration card in the early 70s by people that were involved in the “mass teaching” in South Carolina in which a very large number of poor, rural, undereducated blacks converted to bahai. Many stories about what “really” happened when the “mass teaching” was “stopped” are in circulation. In one case, I was told by a well educated black mass teacher that moved from california to s. carolina to help administer, that the NSA members took specific actions to first manipulate the election stage at the national convention to keep (dissenting/anti-establishment) poor blacks “out of contention” for NSA seats, then to scheme to stop the mass teaching because it was “out of control”. Apparently the many bizarre events that happened during the mass teaching process gave the NSA an excuse to hold on to power given the enormous voting block of new bahais that was developing in s. carolina that would have soon learned how elitist and racist the NSA had been in previous decades, and “voted the bast*rds out”.

    The message was “No uppity blacks need apply” (for NSA jobs).

    Ironically, the one “uppity” black that was allowed on the NSA, Glenford Mitchell, is from the West Indies, where a common attitude of superiority is held towards “low class” blacks in the USA!

    (2) Watsonville/Salinas, California. Mass teaching of “campesinos” (migrant farm workers, mostly mexican peasants) and “consolidation” process based on “devotions” and “service” in the early 80s.
    (yes, these ideas are not “new” in Ruhi, they are “borrowed”)

    This mass teaching was driven by innovative bahais that had been “hippies”, and/or were inspired by the social justice movements of the 60s, etc., who wanted to apply bahai ideas about social-economic “development” to the conditions of exploited farm workers.

    They were moderately successful in gaining converts (hundreds?), and had two major problems with the bahai establishment and/or wider bahai culture:

    a) middle-class “city bahais” would show up on the weekends for a spiritual “quick fix” (like a drug “high”) from “getting converts”, but would not follow up by participating in the consolidation process and “service” projects that were aimed at “consolidating” the teaching by making “actual improvements” in the lives of the new, poor converts.

    Eventually the project leads had to impose draconian rules that only “city bahais” that showed up for days of spiritual cleansing (meditation and prayer) would be allowed to go into the “service projects” to “get converts”.

    This was the first time that I had ever seen an honest, quasi-institutional recognition of the underlying spiritual rot and degeneracy in bahai culture. The Auxilary Bored and Continental Counselors fully supported the need to insulate the mass conversion and consolidation processes from spiritually polluted “city bahais”.

    b) the surrounding “suburban” bahai communities and assemblies (which is where the project leads came from) were mostly hostile and unsupportive, so apparently there was insufficient local support to sustain the “grass roots” efforts and resources needed for the social-economic-development (SED) projects that were integral to the “consolidation”.

    The basic problem was that middle-class american and persian bahais were not “comfortable” with poor, spanish-speaking-only, farm workers showing up at bahai events. While there was certainly an element of pure racism at times, I think the larger problem was that the “needs” of the farm workers was felt to be so overwhelming that the “conventional” bahais simply could not fulfill them and maintain their usual, comfortable middle-class lives. The cognitive dissonance of belonging to a religion that talks about social justice, but does not actually “deliver” onit, was too great, and the unsupportive “city bahais” withdrew into their happy bubble of committee meetings and “firesides”, tea and cookies, and floats and parades and brochures. (following the pattern of the larger, non-bahai, society’s “political non-involvement” in social justice and economic-political reform. hahaha.)

    Several of the mass teaching project leads invested considerable personal and business resources in the projects, which is how the process got going in the first place, but eventually exhaustion set in. (a typical antipattern in bahai culture).

    So, even with regional and continental institutional support, the innovations that were developed in the “salinas” mass teching experiment were not sufficient to sustain mass conversion and consolidation.

    3) grass valley, california. a large number (100-150?) of ex-urbanite and counterculture people (and people attached to their social networks) converted to bahai in a year or two due to the efforts of a new bahai. The new bahai was an energetic spiritual therapist (counselor, new-age psychologist) with considerable intellectual depth and skills (who fully participated in the last one or two “talisman” mysticism conferences at Bosch).

    Even though most of the converts were white, middle-class, new-age, liberal-progressive, the existing bahai communities and assemblies in the area were unresponsive and hostile to the needs of the converts to varying levels. The project lead was sucked into various (now failed) “bureaucratic reinvention” processes in the region, and eventually became exhausted by the pointless and futile nature of larger bahai politics and local indifference and lack of support.

    So, there you have it: the history of three major bahai “mass teaching” processes in the USA that were COMPLETELY UNSUSTAINABLE.

    Now, Farhan will probably say “so what?”. He will explain that the geniuses at the BWC-ITC (and sub-orgs) know all this, and have seen and documented it hundreds of times all over the bahai world in “3rd world” settings, etc., and have put forth a “reform” campaign in the “institute process” to give the bahai world a tool for “reconstructing” a new version of the bahai faith above and beyond the majority of rotten, messed up individual bahais, bahai assemblies and communities as currently exists.

    Two problems with the Farhanian analysis:

    1) the “reform” process is largely dishonest in that it maintains the existing “disconnect” between the present time and any “collective memory” of the past problems and failures of bahai institutions and bahai culture.

    A few times the BWC has been OPENLY honest about the failures of NSAs/LSAs, but things get quickly covered up when someone’s old friend or persian cousin is embarassed. Of course behind the scenes, the “elite” people from one “faction” honestly trash other “factions” in secret, and they all posture in public to seem as “holy” as possible to the masses to avoid open scrutiny.

    In any case, unless bahai culture learns how to be much more honest about its past mistakes, the lessons of history will be repeated over and over until they are learned.

    It is well understood by the “non-bahai” world how to create institutional structures to maintain collective memory of past failures and require accountability, but those things are lacking in the underlying foundational documents (scriptures/etc.) and lacking in bahai culture in general (probably since it comes from shiism).

    2) bad scripture, and a strong resistance to theological reinterpretation and reform have led to regression to the reenactment of failed version of earlier paradigms.

    It is well understood in the fields of social and organizational theory that when under stress, organizations and leadership elites tend to regress to previous levels of development (“become backward and authoritarian”).

    Bahai scripture is full of uncritically backward theology and metaphysics, providing a “fertile field” from which to justify autocratic or authoritarian leadership styles/methods, fundamentalist ideologies, etc.

    So, yes, Farhan is correct that the bahai bureaucracy has launched, again, a major attempt at reform of how bahais operate/live/think, in hopes that grand and noble ideas will be attained and fullfilled, progress will occurr, success and happiness will bless all souls, and so forth.

    I predict that it won’t work, but not because of the nefarious and evil dissidents, critics and non-conformists on the internet, but because there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that the bahai leadership elites have the courage or honesty to be open about all the previous, failed attempts at BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION, and “open up” the system to “real change”.

    So, the antipattern continues, people will invest their hopes and dreams in a bogus religion, and will eventually bitterly depart, or become zombies whose minds and hearts are enslaved by the bureacrats.

    Meanwhile, the glorious kosmic evolution of world culture goes forward regardless, and bahai is left in a teeny-tiny corner of the dustbin of history.

    Adeu amics!

    Eric P.
    Sacramento, Ca.
    (ex-bahai, after 30+ years)

  • farhan

    Dear EP and Grover,

    I am aware of many of the dysfunctions you describe, and in what you express, there is material for thought and improvement, but I am impressed by the pessimism, which I have known from time to time, but which I no longer share.

    I now consider these problems as learning experiences of a new society where people who would never have even met, attempt and learn how to collaborate together.

    It is a long time that I have accepted the idea that I belong to this Faith not for what I hope to get out of it, but for whatever I hope to have the privilege of contributing through it to this world, as a sign of gratitude for the treasures I have withdrawn from it.

    I have slowly come to the understanding that serving the Faith is closer to gardening than to carpentry: we don’t have to keep on trouble-shooting flaws and errors, and bringing putty and paint to cover them up, but to provide water for the seeds to germinate and grow by them selves, and pull out from time to time some weeds and stones that obstruct the growth. This is the meaning of the â€?Verb of Godâ€? that imparts life: we do our work, and then we step aside and let Him do His.

    You might see me wasting good water by pouring it in the desert; I see sprouts and shoots springing up everywhere

    Much love

    Farhan
    XXL Baha’i ;-)

  • Farhan YAZDANI

    Dear EP and Grover,

    I am aware of many of the dysfunctions you describe, and in what you express, there is material for thought and improvement, but I am impressed by the pessimism, which I have known from time to time, but which I no longer share.

    I now consider these problems as learning experiences of a new society where people who would never have even met, attempt and learn how to collaborate together.

    It is a long time that I have accepted the idea that I belong to this Faith not for what I hope to get out of it, but for whatever I hope to have the privilege of contributing through it to this world, as a sign of gratitude for the treasures I have withdrawn from it.

    I have slowly come to the understanding that serving the Faith is closer to gardening than to carpentry: we don’t have to keep on trouble-shooting flaws and errors, and bringing putty and paint to cover them up, but to provide water for the seeds to germinate and grow by them selves, and pull out from time to time some weeds and stones that obstruct the growth. This is the meaning of the â€?Verb of Godâ€? that imparts life: we do our work, and then we step aside and let Him do His.

    You might see me wasting good water by pouring it in the desert; I see sprouts and shoots springing up everywhere

    Much love

    Farhan
    XXL Baha’i ;-)

  • Bird

    You know Craig-

    I really saw the wisdom in you sharing that youtube. The irony of the tweaking of the lyrics of the beautiful song written in response to a forgotten movement started in America in 1986, Hands Across America and Aid to Africa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGKbxHkY5i8 where the song, We are the World was written: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZE4Wrrw_w (beautiful original version, brought a tear remembering the incredible experience of it all)

    I am completely NON-Bah?’?­ now, there is no part of my person that accepts any religion as truth what-so-ever, it is all just really cool stories and theories and the institutions and followers behind them. Who’d of known what I though was getting myself closer to God in the BF was only steering me away from a real relationship with God, consuming my heart through a really elusive institutional conformity process. Wow, what a way to find God, to know there is no road map, He/She is everywhere and in everything. To awake one day unrested from tossing and turning because I realized that the BF is another man made institution and it is concealing it’s deceitful lies and divvying out these â€?warm fuzziesâ€? to a mostly convert membership to retain them. It is the leaders of all religions, especially portrayed in the video you posted teaching children â€?God hates the world’, indeed quite horrendous, it is these institutions created to divide His/Her children that He/She hates. The BF is one of them for sure. Correct me if I am wrong but in the shortest version, Bah?’?­â€™s are lead to believe you are the Omega to the understanding of God’s â€?latestâ€? message to the world for the next 900+ years, no exceptions you are in or you are out! (Please do count me out..lol) ….

    All religions are wrong. All religions bank accounts are fraud funding.

    I know why I still haunt the Bah?’?­ rooms. I identify with the converts, those who desired an answer to a better world and being apart of it. I may not be a Bah?’?­ anymore but I identify with the goodness in your heart, we both still have it. I happened to know some pretty extraordinary people who call themselves Bah?’?­. I am sure there is really no argument that the teaching of Baha’u’llah on living a better life are certainly that of a true sage, but even Baha’u’llah today would be disgusted with what happened to his messages. The heart and soul of his mission to unite has been lost in institutional censorship and individual labeling.

    You know why I love you, you love and you love deeply just like me, we are connected through love, we all are, and in hate too. Maybe someday we can all agree in this world that love is common and it is enough to know we all came from the same place for the same reason, to love with hate is it’s viral nemesis. Correct me if I am wrong when I say that �love� for something, someone, is the greatest emotion in the world. What a blessing �love� is.

    Here is a youtube that is pretty close of what I think �love� really is. To those I love:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo_0UXRY_rY (Aero Smith – I don’t want to miss a thing)

    A little humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT9Qy4gy4Ro (Rolling Stones tribute to Bob Dylan’s Rolling Stone, a place I find myself these days, a rolling stone….)

    Much affection to all the subscribers of the Brants pages-

    Free Bird

  • Bird

    You know Craig-

    I really saw the wisdom in you sharing that youtube. The irony of the tweaking of the lyrics of the beautiful song written in response to a forgotten movement started in America in 1986, Hands Across America and Aid to Africa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGKbxHkY5i8 where the song, We are the World was written: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZE4Wrrw_w (beautiful original version, brought a tear remembering the incredible experience of it all)

    I am completely NON-Bah?’?­ now, there is no part of my person that accepts any religion as truth what-so-ever, it is all just really cool stories and theories and the institutions and followers behind them. Who’d of known what I though was getting myself closer to God in the BF was only steering me away from a real relationship with God, consuming my heart through a really elusive institutional conformity process. Wow, what a way to find God, to know there is no road map, He/She is everywhere and in everything. To awake one day unrested from tossing and turning because I realized that the BF is another man made institution and it is concealing it’s deceitful lies and divvying out these â€?warm fuzziesâ€? to a mostly convert membership to retain them. It is the leaders of all religions, especially portrayed in the video you posted teaching children â€?God hates the world’, indeed quite horrendous, it is these institutions created to divide His/Her children that He/She hates. The BF is one of them for sure. Correct me if I am wrong but in the shortest version, Bah?’?­â€™s are lead to believe you are the Omega to the understanding of God’s â€?latestâ€? message to the world for the next 900+ years, no exceptions you are in or you are out! (Please do count me out..lol) ….

    All religions are wrong. All religions bank accounts are fraud funding.

    I know why I still haunt the Bah?’?­ rooms. I identify with the converts, those who desired an answer to a better world and being apart of it. I may not be a Bah?’?­ anymore but I identify with the goodness in your heart, we both still have it. I happened to know some pretty extraordinary people who call themselves Bah?’?­. I am sure there is really no argument that the teaching of Baha’u’llah on living a better life are certainly that of a true sage, but even Baha’u’llah today would be disgusted with what happened to his messages. The heart and soul of his mission to unite has been lost in institutional censorship and individual labeling.

    You know why I love you, you love and you love deeply just like me, we are connected through love, we all are, and in hate too. Maybe someday we can all agree in this world that love is common and it is enough to know we all came from the same place for the same reason, to love with hate is it’s viral nemesis. Correct me if I am wrong when I say that �love� for something, someone, is the greatest emotion in the world. What a blessing �love� is.

    Here is a youtube that is pretty close of what I think �love� really is. To those I love:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo_0UXRY_rY (Aero Smith – I don’t want to miss a thing)

    A little humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT9Qy4gy4Ro (Rolling Stones tribute to Bob Dylan’s Rolling Stone, a place I find myself these days, a rolling stone….)

    Much affection to all the subscribers of the Brants pages-

    Free Bird

  • ep

    Farhan,

    XXXL! Hilarioso. Enjoying the french food? what a naughty boy. :) Thanks for participating in the mirth and glee of ranting, I always greatly enjoy hearing from you.

    Onward and further…..

    Yes, it is known that the cultural “gravity well” of Shiism requires you to engage in DENIAL and invoke grand, lofty, noble ideals whenever the dirty little details of how the bahai system dehumanizes people are brought to light.

    It is also known that you have probably never “challenged the system” at a profound level, and so do not “really” know what it means to have your very identity threatened or taken away by corrupt, evil people that abuse their authority.

    While you grow sprouts, others plan to pour chemical herbicides onto any “sprout” or “shoot” that dares to grow the wrong way. The fact that your own religion tells you to fight such injustices is apparently now completely irrelevant. Enjoy your bubble of joy, and by all means, dodder on in peace, tranquility, and ethereal serenity.

    I do not expect you to affirm the pain or struggle that people have had as bahais, at a deep level. You superficial affirmation is however greatly appreciated. as lacking in meaning as it is. I savor the warm fuzziness of it, sort of like a spiritual cotton candy at one of the many bad baseball games that seem to always exist.

    Anyways, the basic problem with your response is that, as Free Bird says, religion isn’t needed to do noble things. As I’ve mentioned to you over and over, compassion and altruism (beauty,good,truth) existed in human consciousness LONG LONG LONG before religion or its bureaucracies were invented.

    Compassion and altruism were given to humanity by EVOLUTION, not REVELATION.

    It would be nice if bahai scripture simply said “scientific evolution was caused by God: so go forth an INNOVATE and BE CREATIVE”. But it doesn’t, so things are messy.

    Revelation (AKA “God’s chosen people”) is a “middle-man” scam designed to deprive people of access to transcendance and thereby put it (transcendence) into the hands of those that seek to use it as a tool to expert power and control (priests/ kings/ dictators/ administrators) for cultural, political, economic and military gain and dominance.

    In the hands of some premodern tribal leaders, the Revelation Scam provided wondrous results, vaulting particular Jungian archetypes into stratospheric prominence and driving cultural, political, economic and military “unification” around “universal” beliefs, leading to “great empires” (and great slave systems), and so forth.

    However (as Craig wisely states), dinosaur-like “revealed” religions and their incompetent, backward bureacuracies, have no validity in the enlightened kosmic age in which humanity finds itself, at least not at the unfolding, emerging, edge of cultural and *spiritual* evolution.

    As long as “conventional” bahais know that they have become part of an irrelevant backwater in the human ecosystem, they can play a role in retaining collective memory of their historical circumstances in which one of the last great attempts at brainwashing humanity into accepting premodern “Revelation” completely FLOPPED on the way to creating a global theocracy. (Thank God/ess.)

    In other words, bahais can be like docents in a virtual museum of failed religions. or. maybe better, an exhibit. preferably behind glass and bars where as few innocent bystanders get hurt as possible.

    Other than that, all the “good” things that bahais are doing, or could be doing, are just as easily be done anywhere else as far as I can tell (and usually better in other organizations).

    People that want to do ACTUAL good things in the world are usually wasting their time with bahai.

    Peace and Love Out!
    ep

    [quote comment="54316"]Dear EP and Grover,

    I am aware of many of the dysfunctions you describe, and in what you express, there is material for thought and improvement, but I am impressed by the pessimism, which I have known from time to time, but which I no longer share.

    I now consider these problems as learning experiences of a new society where people who would never have even met, attempt and learn how to collaborate together.

    It is a long time that I have accepted the idea that I belong to this Faith not for what I hope to get out of it, but for whatever I hope to have the privilege of contributing through it to this world, as a sign of gratitude for the treasures I have withdrawn from it.

    I have slowly come to the understanding that serving the Faith is closer to gardening than to carpentry: we don’t have to keep on trouble-shooting flaws and errors, and bringing putty and paint to cover them up, but to provide water for the seeds to germinate and grow by them selves, and pull out from time to time some weeds and stones that obstruct the growth. This is the meaning of the â€?Verb of Godâ€? that imparts life: we do our work, and then we step aside and let Him do His.

    You might see me wasting good water by pouring it in the desert; I see sprouts and shoots springing up everywhere

    Much love

    Farhan
    XXL Baha’i ;-)[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]You know Craig-

    I really saw the wisdom in you sharing that youtube. The irony of the tweaking of the lyrics of the beautiful song written in response to a forgotten movement started in America in 1986, Hands Across America and Aid to Africa:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGKbxHkY5i8 where the song, We are the World was written: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZE4Wrrw_w (beautiful original version, brought a tear remembering the incredible experience of it all)

    I am completely NON-Bah?’?­ now, there is no part of my person that accepts any religion as truth what-so-ever, it is all just really cool stories and theories and the institutions and followers behind them. Who’d of known what I though was getting myself closer to God in the BF was only steering me away from a real relationship with God, consuming my heart through a really elusive institutional conformity process. Wow, what a way to find God, to know there is no road map, He/She is everywhere and in everything. To awake one day unrested from tossing and turning because I realized that the BF is another man made institution and it is concealing it’s deceitful lies and divvying out these â€?warm fuzziesâ€? to a mostly convert membership to retain them. It is the leaders of all religions, especially portrayed in the video you posted teaching children â€?God hates the world’, indeed quite horrendous, it is these institutions created to divide His/Her children that He/She hates. The BF is one of them for sure. Correct me if I am wrong but in the shortest version, Bah?’?­â€™s are lead to believe you are the Omega to the understanding of God’s â€?latestâ€? message to the world for the next 900+ years, no exceptions you are in or you are out! (Please do count me out..lol) ….

    All religions are wrong. All religions bank accounts are fraud funding.

    I know why I still haunt the Bah?’?­ rooms. I identify with the converts, those who desired an answer to a better world and being apart of it. I may not be a Bah?’?­ anymore but I identify with the goodness in your heart, we both still have it. I happened to know some pretty extraordinary people who call themselves Bah?’?­. I am sure there is really no argument that the teaching of Baha’u’llah on living a better life are certainly that of a true sage, but even Baha’u’llah today would be disgusted with what happened to his messages. The heart and soul of his mission to unite has been lost in institutional censorship and individual labeling.

    You know why I love you, you love and you love deeply just like me, we are connected through love, we all are, and in hate too. Maybe someday we can all agree in this world that love is common and it is enough to know we all came from the same place for the same reason, to love with hate is it’s viral nemesis. Correct me if I am wrong when I say that �love� for something, someone, is the greatest emotion in the world. What a blessing �love� is.

    Here is a youtube that is pretty close of what I think �love� really is. To those I love:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo_0UXRY_rY (Aero Smith – I don’t want to miss a thing)

    A little humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT9Qy4gy4Ro (Rolling Stones tribute to Bob Dylan’s Rolling Stone, a place I find myself these days, a rolling stone….)

    Much affection to all the subscribers of the Brants pages-

    Free Bird[/quote]

  • ep

    Farhan,

    XXXL! Hilarioso. Enjoying the french food? what a naughty boy. :) Thanks for participating in the mirth and glee of ranting, I always greatly enjoy hearing from you.

    Onward and further…..

    Yes, it is known that the cultural “gravity well” of Shiism requires you to engage in DENIAL and invoke grand, lofty, noble ideals whenever the dirty little details of how the bahai system dehumanizes people are brought to light.

    It is also known that you have probably never “challenged the system” at a profound level, and so do not “really” know what it means to have your very identity threatened or taken away by corrupt, evil people that abuse their authority.

    While you grow sprouts, others plan to pour chemical herbicides onto any “sprout” or “shoot” that dares to grow the wrong way. The fact that your own religion tells you to fight such injustices is apparently now completely irrelevant. Enjoy your bubble of joy, and by all means, dodder on in peace, tranquility, and ethereal serenity.

    I do not expect you to affirm the pain or struggle that people have had as bahais, at a deep level. You superficial affirmation is however greatly appreciated. as lacking in meaning as it is. I savor the warm fuzziness of it, sort of like a spiritual cotton candy at one of the many bad baseball games that seem to always exist.

    Anyways, the basic problem with your response is that, as Free Bird says, religion isn’t needed to do noble things. As I’ve mentioned to you over and over, compassion and altruism (beauty,good,truth) existed in human consciousness LONG LONG LONG before religion or its bureaucracies were invented.

    Compassion and altruism were given to humanity by EVOLUTION, not REVELATION.

    It would be nice if bahai scripture simply said “scientific evolution was caused by God: so go forth an INNOVATE and BE CREATIVE”. But it doesn’t, so things are messy.

    Revelation (AKA “God’s chosen people”) is a “middle-man” scam designed to deprive people of access to transcendance and thereby put it (transcendence) into the hands of those that seek to use it as a tool to expert power and control (priests/ kings/ dictators/ administrators) for cultural, political, economic and military gain and dominance.

    In the hands of some premodern tribal leaders, the Revelation Scam provided wondrous results, vaulting particular Jungian archetypes into stratospheric prominence and driving cultural, political, economic and military “unification” around “universal” beliefs, leading to “great empires” (and great slave systems), and so forth.

    However (as Craig wisely states), dinosaur-like “revealed” religions and their incompetent, backward bureacuracies, have no validity in the enlightened kosmic age in which humanity finds itself, at least not at the unfolding, emerging, edge of cultural and *spiritual* evolution.

    As long as “conventional” bahais know that they have become part of an irrelevant backwater in the human ecosystem, they can play a role in retaining collective memory of their historical circumstances in which one of the last great attempts at brainwashing humanity into accepting premodern “Revelation” completely FLOPPED on the way to creating a global theocracy. (Thank God/ess.)

    In other words, bahais can be like docents in a virtual museum of failed religions. or. maybe better, an exhibit. preferably behind glass and bars where as few innocent bystanders get hurt as possible.

    Other than that, all the “good” things that bahais are doing, or could be doing, are just as easily be done anywhere else as far as I can tell (and usually better in other organizations).

    People that want to do ACTUAL good things in the world are usually wasting their time with bahai.

    Peace and Love Out!
    ep

    [quote comment="54316"]Dear EP and Grover,

    I am aware of many of the dysfunctions you describe, and in what you express, there is material for thought and improvement, but I am impressed by the pessimism, which I have known from time to time, but which I no longer share.

    I now consider these problems as learning experiences of a new society where people who would never have even met, attempt and learn how to collaborate together.

    It is a long time that I have accepted the idea that I belong to this Faith not for what I hope to get out of it, but for whatever I hope to have the privilege of contributing through it to this world, as a sign of gratitude for the treasures I have withdrawn from it.

    I have slowly come to the understanding that serving the Faith is closer to gardening than to carpentry: we don’t have to keep on trouble-shooting flaws and errors, and bringing putty and paint to cover them up, but to provide water for the seeds to germinate and grow by them selves, and pull out from time to time some weeds and stones that obstruct the growth. This is the meaning of the â€?Verb of Godâ€? that imparts life: we do our work, and then we step aside and let Him do His.

    You might see me wasting good water by pouring it in the desert; I see sprouts and shoots springing up everywhere

    Much love

    Farhan
    XXL Baha’i ;-)[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]You know Craig-

    I really saw the wisdom in you sharing that youtube. The irony of the tweaking of the lyrics of the beautiful song written in response to a forgotten movement started in America in 1986, Hands Across America and Aid to Africa:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGKbxHkY5i8 where the song, We are the World was written: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZE4Wrrw_w (beautiful original version, brought a tear remembering the incredible experience of it all)

    I am completely NON-Bah?’?­ now, there is no part of my person that accepts any religion as truth what-so-ever, it is all just really cool stories and theories and the institutions and followers behind them. Who’d of known what I though was getting myself closer to God in the BF was only steering me away from a real relationship with God, consuming my heart through a really elusive institutional conformity process. Wow, what a way to find God, to know there is no road map, He/She is everywhere and in everything. To awake one day unrested from tossing and turning because I realized that the BF is another man made institution and it is concealing it’s deceitful lies and divvying out these â€?warm fuzziesâ€? to a mostly convert membership to retain them. It is the leaders of all religions, especially portrayed in the video you posted teaching children â€?God hates the world’, indeed quite horrendous, it is these institutions created to divide His/Her children that He/She hates. The BF is one of them for sure. Correct me if I am wrong but in the shortest version, Bah?’?­â€™s are lead to believe you are the Omega to the understanding of God’s â€?latestâ€? message to the world for the next 900+ years, no exceptions you are in or you are out! (Please do count me out..lol) ….

    All religions are wrong. All religions bank accounts are fraud funding.

    I know why I still haunt the Bah?’?­ rooms. I identify with the converts, those who desired an answer to a better world and being apart of it. I may not be a Bah?’?­ anymore but I identify with the goodness in your heart, we both still have it. I happened to know some pretty extraordinary people who call themselves Bah?’?­. I am sure there is really no argument that the teaching of Baha’u’llah on living a better life are certainly that of a true sage, but even Baha’u’llah today would be disgusted with what happened to his messages. The heart and soul of his mission to unite has been lost in institutional censorship and individual labeling.

    You know why I love you, you love and you love deeply just like me, we are connected through love, we all are, and in hate too. Maybe someday we can all agree in this world that love is common and it is enough to know we all came from the same place for the same reason, to love with hate is it’s viral nemesis. Correct me if I am wrong when I say that �love� for something, someone, is the greatest emotion in the world. What a blessing �love� is.

    Here is a youtube that is pretty close of what I think �love� really is. To those I love:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo_0UXRY_rY (Aero Smith – I don’t want to miss a thing)

    A little humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT9Qy4gy4Ro (Rolling Stones tribute to Bob Dylan’s Rolling Stone, a place I find myself these days, a rolling stone….)

    Much affection to all the subscribers of the Brants pages-

    Free Bird[/quote]

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="54318"]

    Free Bird wrote:

    You know Craig-

    I really saw the wisdom in you sharing that youtube. The irony of the tweaking of the lyrics of the beautiful song written in response to a forgotten movement started in America in 1986, Hands Across America and Aid to Africa:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGKbxHkY5i8 where the song, We are the World was written:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZE4Wrrw_w (beautiful original version, brought a tear remembering the incredible experience of it all)[/quote]

    Free Bird,

    Thanks for those links. Brought back memories for me too. Gwad, does Cindi Lauper push my button! I have always just adored her. Have you ever heard her sing old jazz and Broadway standards? There was a special on HBO once I think of her doing that, just brilliant!

    Yep the state of consciousness between “We Are the World” and “God Hates the World” is about as big as the gulf between Heaven and Hell. The gulf between sanity and insanity.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELamUnF0EU

    This is what happens we people purport to speak and act on behalf of “God”.

    It is all brain chemistry. Nothing original here at all. The same old, same old. Once the lizard brain of lecturing Chief Priests, Scribes, and Pharisee mass controllers takes over an organization, that’s it. That’s all she wrote. That little girl at the end of the GHTW video is just heart breaking. Systems of indoctrination just depress the hell out of me.

    I once met many true free thinking revolutionaries of love in the Baha’i Faith. But it was all run into the ground by mental patients in Armani suits. The rank and file Baha’is deserved far better leadership than the sorry sacks of newly formed biological soil material they got.

    But we all have to solider on now, just like U.S. GI’s sent to their deaths to “do God’s work” (Tm) that survived the horrors of war and must now move on to find some kind of solace in life to be able to regain their strength and go on. My health care project along these lines may find traction over the next few weeks. Please pray for this potentially major effort to render aid and assistance to these men and women in their ordeal. Pray that doors open at the Veterans Administration to render service with my concept. Meanwhile, somewhere there is intelligent life in the Universe. We all have to believe this.

    EP, thank you for the contribution of your recent brilliant analysis. What can anyone say? Your posts have been spot on insightful as to the stunning magnitude of the complete lack of thought regarding organizational truth in the Baha’i Faith now.

    Where I live, we have very intelligent and hard working immigrant peoples who came to America to make a better life over the decades. The Steelers are at training camp now. We are happy as a region when that happens. Team owner, Mr. Dan Rooney, brought Barack Obama to the Strip District where I work in the city for a breakfast of pancakes back in April at a little working class diner two blocks from where I work. I now make it a habit to sit in Obama’s chair when I eat lunch there. Maybe some of the intelligence and cosmic timeliness of that man will rub off on me. And some days I sit in Michelle’s chair that day too.

    It’s across the state, but I just love the Spanish dub on the film “Invincible”.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKOLfAXHOUY&NR=1

    It shows that a story about triumph against all odds crosses all cultures and societies.

    As a college football player long, long ago in my youth, I learned one of the great insights of life that this film demonstrates at the end. Sometimes to come out of no where as a game changer, you have to read the field and change the play in the moment.
    Yes. CHANGE THE PLAY. Sometimes on, gasp, INTUITION!

    I wonder of any member of the current Universal House of Justice ever played on an athletic team of any kind, where you get immediate feedback with cleats up you back if you don’t really know what you are doing?

    BTW, I once had a very interesting talk with Bill Sears. At one point in his life he broadcast the Eagles football games and the games of the University of Pennsylvania where I once wore the uniform. I actually played in Franklin Field where the game in this film took place. It was a beautiful grass field back then. It is astro-turf now.

    Changing the play by intuition is one of the great joys of life. Everyone should try it once in a while just to change the pace of top down control.

    I preach the New World Age. I preach the New Day of the individual spiritual liberation of free nations and free peoples.

    Everyone else can GTF out of the way because absolutely no Cosmic Power whatsoever is going to come to them and their ideas. Zero. It will all go to others.

    Everyone keep posting.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="54318"]

    Free Bird wrote:

    You know Craig-

    I really saw the wisdom in you sharing that youtube. The irony of the tweaking of the lyrics of the beautiful song written in response to a forgotten movement started in America in 1986, Hands Across America and Aid to Africa:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGKbxHkY5i8 where the song, We are the World was written:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clZE4Wrrw_w (beautiful original version, brought a tear remembering the incredible experience of it all)[/quote]

    Free Bird,

    Thanks for those links. Brought back memories for me too. Gwad, does Cindi Lauper push my button! I have always just adored her. Have you ever heard her sing old jazz and Broadway standards? There was a special on HBO once I think of her doing that, just brilliant!

    Yep the state of consciousness between “We Are the World” and “God Hates the World” is about as big as the gulf between Heaven and Hell. The gulf between sanity and insanity.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELamUnF0EU

    This is what happens we people purport to speak and act on behalf of “God”.

    It is all brain chemistry. Nothing original here at all. The same old, same old. Once the lizard brain of lecturing Chief Priests, Scribes, and Pharisee mass controllers takes over an organization, that’s it. That’s all she wrote. That little girl at the end of the GHTW video is just heart breaking. Systems of indoctrination just depress the hell out of me.

    I once met many true free thinking revolutionaries of love in the Baha’i Faith. But it was all run into the ground by mental patients in Armani suits. The rank and file Baha’is deserved far better leadership than the sorry sacks of newly formed biological soil material they got.

    But we all have to solider on now, just like U.S. GI’s sent to their deaths to “do God’s work” (Tm) that survived the horrors of war and must now move on to find some kind of solace in life to be able to regain their strength and go on. My health care project along these lines may find traction over the next few weeks. Please pray for this potentially major effort to render aid and assistance to these men and women in their ordeal. Pray that doors open at the Veterans Administration to render service with my concept. Meanwhile, somewhere there is intelligent life in the Universe. We all have to believe this.

    EP, thank you for the contribution of your recent brilliant analysis. What can anyone say? Your posts have been spot on insightful as to the stunning magnitude of the complete lack of thought regarding organizational truth in the Baha’i Faith now.

    Where I live, we have very intelligent and hard working immigrant peoples who came to America to make a better life over the decades. The Steelers are at training camp now. We are happy as a region when that happens. Team owner, Mr. Dan Rooney, brought Barack Obama to the Strip District where I work in the city for a breakfast of pancakes back in April at a little working class diner two blocks from where I work. I now make it a habit to sit in Obama’s chair when I eat lunch there. Maybe some of the intelligence and cosmic timeliness of that man will rub off on me. And some days I sit in Michelle’s chair that day too.

    It’s across the state, but I just love the Spanish dub on the film “Invincible”.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKOLfAXHOUY&NR=1

    It shows that a story about triumph against all odds crosses all cultures and societies.

    As a college football player long, long ago in my youth, I learned one of the great insights of life that this film demonstrates at the end. Sometimes to come out of no where as a game changer, you have to read the field and change the play in the moment.
    Yes. CHANGE THE PLAY. Sometimes on, gasp, INTUITION!

    I wonder of any member of the current Universal House of Justice ever played on an athletic team of any kind, where you get immediate feedback with cleats up you back if you don’t really know what you are doing?

    BTW, I once had a very interesting talk with Bill Sears. At one point in his life he broadcast the Eagles football games and the games of the University of Pennsylvania where I once wore the uniform. I actually played in Franklin Field where the game in this film took place. It was a beautiful grass field back then. It is astro-turf now.

    Changing the play by intuition is one of the great joys of life. Everyone should try it once in a while just to change the pace of top down control.

    I preach the New World Age. I preach the New Day of the individual spiritual liberation of free nations and free peoples.

    Everyone else can GTF out of the way because absolutely no Cosmic Power whatsoever is going to come to them and their ideas. Zero. It will all go to others.

    Everyone keep posting.

  • Bird

    What ever we do we can not forget what works. Love works. It’s easy, requires little thought as it is all in our hearts, a mechanism that is truly a scientific miracle! Imagine the thunder of a blazing heart in love, oh the rush that never seems to end, LOVE…

    Cyndi Lauper is great, she was recently on tour where I live but I missed her. Music seems to sooth the worn or wary soul, almost like a spark of revalidation, created to beat of the heart. Maybe we’ll find �it� that what brings us all together, in music. I’m working on some lyrics now. Music is indeed my solace.

    I also join you in praying daily for our armed services, the men and women & their families, who protect me, my sons and my country. Let me ask you, who protects those who are protecting? America is my country despite that I have been deeply sadden by the “institution” of government(s) it has become. Our forefathers did so much sacrifice to lay the foundation of freedom & liberty but we’ve complicated it so much to the point know one understands government(s) anymore. Our very own US Gov. is top management heavy, laden with useless laws and ordinances. With new legislation each & every year at state & federal levels what does that say about where we are headed. Honesty Craig, until I saw the last issue of Time magazine I did not realize that the US Government, the land of the free, is building a steel wall across the border of Mexico and that our representatives approved it. What a complete WRONG move, what does say about where we as Americans, leaders of justice are in our developments? I am so saddened by it, it is so un-American. Will the individual states do that next, build walls and toll entrances? Will Canada build one to keep American’s out needing medical care? Nothing surprises me these days with any â€?institutionalâ€? thinking, nothing.

    Love is all I got left that I can call my own.

  • Bird

    What ever we do we can not forget what works. Love works. It’s easy, requires little thought as it is all in our hearts, a mechanism that is truly a scientific miracle! Imagine the thunder of a blazing heart in love, oh the rush that never seems to end, LOVE…

    Cyndi Lauper is great, she was recently on tour where I live but I missed her. Music seems to sooth the worn or wary soul, almost like a spark of revalidation, created to beat of the heart. Maybe we’ll find �it� that what brings us all together, in music. I’m working on some lyrics now. Music is indeed my solace.

    I also join you in praying daily for our armed services, the men and women & their families, who protect me, my sons and my country. Let me ask you, who protects those who are protecting? America is my country despite that I have been deeply sadden by the “institution” of government(s) it has become. Our forefathers did so much sacrifice to lay the foundation of freedom & liberty but we’ve complicated it so much to the point know one understands government(s) anymore. Our very own US Gov. is top management heavy, laden with useless laws and ordinances. With new legislation each & every year at state & federal levels what does that say about where we are headed. Honesty Craig, until I saw the last issue of Time magazine I did not realize that the US Government, the land of the free, is building a steel wall across the border of Mexico and that our representatives approved it. What a complete WRONG move, what does say about where we as Americans, leaders of justice are in our developments? I am so saddened by it, it is so un-American. Will the individual states do that next, build walls and toll entrances? Will Canada build one to keep American’s out needing medical care? Nothing surprises me these days with any â€?institutionalâ€? thinking, nothing.

    Love is all I got left that I can call my own.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]

    Free Bird wrote:

    Nothing surprises me these days with any �institutional� thinking, nothing.[/quote]

    Yep. Now we are building steel walls to keep immigrants from Central and South America out of the U.S. But ask yourself this? Why do people even feel they HAVE to come here to find some kind of economic opportunity for a better life for themselves and their families IN THE FIRST PLACE? The answer is because this is a free thinker PROTESTANT country where people figured out long ago that they MUST think for themselves to have a better life and not turn their hearts, minds, and “eternal souls” over to self appointed bogus jack ass “experts” at the top of dip shit controller organizations to do their thinking for them. These desperate people don’t have any opportunity in their dirt poor group think countries where 13 families own everything. The Roman Catholic Church as the purveyor and indoctrinator of “institutional thinking” screwed these beautiful native people royally and kept their minds in chains for centuries. Now it’s “Game Over” in the New World Age. So I say let them go for it. If they make it good. If we catch them, they get deported. Life is sometimes tough.

    But a better answer is to help people get their heads out of their collective assess and learn to think for themselves in life rather than build walls of steel to keep them out. People should educate themselves through hard work and then go back to their homelands and help people get their act together. The Internet will eventually help with this process of spreading liberating learning and ideas. A computer for a village is cheap. The reach of the Internet will eventually be everywhere to accelerate knowledge and learning.

    Even though Baha’u’llah’s religion currently denounces it, seeing through one’s OWN eyes and not through the eyes of OTHERS is the foundation Teaching of the New World Age which I still believe Baha’u’llah channeled into the new Cosmic World Soul vortex. That is called thinking for yourself. Whoever promotes this concept educates the entire human race now. Whoever doesn’t enslaves the entire human race now. All bets are now off on people who traffic in mindless group think.

    Yes. Cindi Lauper pushes my button. She really, really does.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ5LmQmQZqg

    Good night, Free Bird.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]

    Free Bird wrote:

    Nothing surprises me these days with any �institutional� thinking, nothing.[/quote]

    Yep. Now we are building steel walls to keep immigrants from Central and South America out of the U.S. But ask yourself this? Why do people even feel they HAVE to come here to find some kind of economic opportunity for a better life for themselves and their families IN THE FIRST PLACE? The answer is because this is a free thinker PROTESTANT country where people figured out long ago that they MUST think for themselves to have a better life and not turn their hearts, minds, and “eternal souls” over to self appointed bogus jack ass “experts” at the top of dip shit controller organizations to do their thinking for them. These desperate people don’t have any opportunity in their dirt poor group think countries where 13 families own everything. The Roman Catholic Church as the purveyor and indoctrinator of “institutional thinking” screwed these beautiful native people royally and kept their minds in chains for centuries. Now it’s “Game Over” in the New World Age. So I say let them go for it. If they make it good. If we catch them, they get deported. Life is sometimes tough.

    But a better answer is to help people get their heads out of their collective assess and learn to think for themselves in life rather than build walls of steel to keep them out. People should educate themselves through hard work and then go back to their homelands and help people get their act together. The Internet will eventually help with this process of spreading liberating learning and ideas. A computer for a village is cheap. The reach of the Internet will eventually be everywhere to accelerate knowledge and learning.

    Even though Baha’u’llah’s religion currently denounces it, seeing through one’s OWN eyes and not through the eyes of OTHERS is the foundation Teaching of the New World Age which I still believe Baha’u’llah channeled into the new Cosmic World Soul vortex. That is called thinking for yourself. Whoever promotes this concept educates the entire human race now. Whoever doesn’t enslaves the entire human race now. All bets are now off on people who traffic in mindless group think.

    Yes. Cindi Lauper pushes my button. She really, really does.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ5LmQmQZqg

    Good night, Free Bird.

  • Bird

    “Yes. Cindi Lauper pushes my button. She really, really does.”

    Who doesn’t adore the musician that told the world the truth? Girls really do just want to have fun!.

    Thank God for us girls Craig! Cheers to the Girls… and it was Jewish $$ who funded our army and are as American as the Protestant Christian.

    Where lies the problem? The efforts of the American workforce has diminished and become an EEOC liability to hire ANYONE in the US who speaks and reads English. Employers want to get the most bang for their buck, so do consumers, but they have to be regulated. It’s all going to be COSCO, HOME DEPOT, TACO BELL serving tacos, burritos, hamburgers, pizza and Chinese take-out. It’s all NETFLIX. It’s BOEING…. You know what I am saying… The small mom and pop days are over. You need lawyers to open a business not just money. You need to collective bargain and be signature to 100+ state & federal agencies to hire one person. Individual initiative is hard to launch when the �institutions� are taking over and placing so many regulations on you, it’s enormous. Then you finally do make money and you find out your in a 35% Federal & 10% State tax bracket. It’s all nuts. I’m looking for a place I can retire away from the bureaucracy yet still give my sons a good education.

  • Bird

    “Yes. Cindi Lauper pushes my button. She really, really does.”

    Who doesn’t adore the musician that told the world the truth? Girls really do just want to have fun!.

    Thank God for us girls Craig! Cheers to the Girls… and it was Jewish $$ who funded our army and are as American as the Protestant Christian.

    Where lies the problem? The efforts of the American workforce has diminished and become an EEOC liability to hire ANYONE in the US who speaks and reads English. Employers want to get the most bang for their buck, so do consumers, but they have to be regulated. It’s all going to be COSCO, HOME DEPOT, TACO BELL serving tacos, burritos, hamburgers, pizza and Chinese take-out. It’s all NETFLIX. It’s BOEING…. You know what I am saying… The small mom and pop days are over. You need lawyers to open a business not just money. You need to collective bargain and be signature to 100+ state & federal agencies to hire one person. Individual initiative is hard to launch when the �institutions� are taking over and placing so many regulations on you, it’s enormous. Then you finally do make money and you find out your in a 35% Federal & 10% State tax bracket. It’s all nuts. I’m looking for a place I can retire away from the bureaucracy yet still give my sons a good education.

  • farhan

    Eric wrote:

    “Many stories about what “really” happened when the “mass teaching” was “stopped” are in circulation.”

    Eric, I can tell you many more; I was involved in a mass teaching effort in 1972 and I moved in as a home front pioneer and helplessly looked at a brand new community of some 25 melt away.

    At the first meeting one new believer said that gypsies were robbers and didn’t want to work with them, and 6 new believers left. At teh first LSA meeting someone broght in a bottle of champagne to feast teh LSA. He got tolf of and again two or three LSA members believers left…

    At that time I realised that before undertaking mass teaching, we would need to provide catering facilities first.

    This is all what the Teacher Training Institute is about. Getting the elementary concepts to inexperienced teachers prior and at the same time as enrolling new believers, so that these new souls can be catered for through the core activities. And it is working, in spite of all the “learning problems” we have witnessed.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Eric wrote:

    “Many stories about what “really” happened when the “mass teaching” was “stopped” are in circulation.”

    Eric, I can tell you many more; I was involved in a mass teaching effort in 1972 and I moved in as a home front pioneer and helplessly looked at a brand new community of some 25 melt away.

    At the first meeting one new believer said that gypsies were robbers and didn’t want to work with them, and 6 new believers left. At teh first LSA meeting someone broght in a bottle of champagne to feast teh LSA. He got tolf of and again two or three LSA members believers left…

    At that time I realised that before undertaking mass teaching, we would need to provide catering facilities first.

    This is all what the Teacher Training Institute is about. Getting the elementary concepts to inexperienced teachers prior and at the same time as enrolling new believers, so that these new souls can be catered for through the core activities. And it is working, in spite of all the “learning problems” we have witnessed.

  • Grover

    Hi EP,

    [quote post="507"]Grover, as a scientist and teacher, you should work for reform within bahai as much as possible. there are good bahais in the n.america and europe that you can connect with that have been working on science-religion issues for quite some time. some of the older ones are discouraged, etc., but they have interesting stories and ideas. some younger ones are moving forward in exploring cognitive theory, neurosciences, lingustics, etc., all very valuable, rich areas for religious scholars.[/quote]

    I hate to be pessimistic, but to be honest, I think the Baha’i Faith is incapable of any reform, unless it is supported at the highest level. Baha’is on a local or national level are not mentally or physically capable of adopting or adapting any new ideas unless it is beat into them repeatedly over 5-10 years with endless speeches and letters from on high. This is from personal experience where I’ve tried to get people in my community at least thinking about various issues, and they come up afterwards and shake my hand and say that was really great, etc, etc, but then the LSA is utterly incapable of doing anything with it and the people revert back to their old ways of thinking about things pretty quickly. In a way, its amazing that Ruhi was actually able to be implemented, which is a testimony to the sheer dogged determination and persistence of the powers that be. Baha’is for the most part are pretty simplistic and banal in their way of thinking, that to introduce anything thats slightly sophisticated is really an exercise in futility. It is really different to teaching in school or University where if you have a good idea, people will adapt it or implement it pretty quickly.

    But, having said that, I’m happy to correspond with those Baha’is you mentioned.

    [quote post="507"]The basic problem was that middle-class american and persian bahais were not �comfortable� with poor, spanish-speaking-only, farm workers showing up at bahai events. While there was certainly an element of pure racism at times, I think the larger problem was that the �needs� of the farm workers was felt to be so overwhelming that the �conventional� bahais simply could not fulfill them and maintain their usual, comfortable middle-class lives. The cognitive dissonance of belonging to a religion that talks about social justice, but does not actually �deliver� onit, was too great, and the unsupportive �city bahais� withdrew into their happy bubble of committee meetings and �firesides�, tea and cookies, and floats and parades and brochures. (following the pattern of the larger, non-bahai, society’s �political non-involvement� in social justice and economic-political reform. hahaha.)[/quote]

    We had a similar problem where there was a huge influx of indigenous Baha’is who had thought the Baha’i Faith would help solve issues of social and racial injustice. They very quickly realised that the persians and anglophiles weren’t sympathetic to the injustices these people had suffered and within 2-5 years the majority had become inactive or returned to their old religions.

  • Grover

    Hi EP,

    [quote post="507"]Grover, as a scientist and teacher, you should work for reform within bahai as much as possible. there are good bahais in the n.america and europe that you can connect with that have been working on science-religion issues for quite some time. some of the older ones are discouraged, etc., but they have interesting stories and ideas. some younger ones are moving forward in exploring cognitive theory, neurosciences, lingustics, etc., all very valuable, rich areas for religious scholars.[/quote]

    I hate to be pessimistic, but to be honest, I think the Baha’i Faith is incapable of any reform, unless it is supported at the highest level. Baha’is on a local or national level are not mentally or physically capable of adopting or adapting any new ideas unless it is beat into them repeatedly over 5-10 years with endless speeches and letters from on high. This is from personal experience where I’ve tried to get people in my community at least thinking about various issues, and they come up afterwards and shake my hand and say that was really great, etc, etc, but then the LSA is utterly incapable of doing anything with it and the people revert back to their old ways of thinking about things pretty quickly. In a way, its amazing that Ruhi was actually able to be implemented, which is a testimony to the sheer dogged determination and persistence of the powers that be. Baha’is for the most part are pretty simplistic and banal in their way of thinking, that to introduce anything thats slightly sophisticated is really an exercise in futility. It is really different to teaching in school or University where if you have a good idea, people will adapt it or implement it pretty quickly.

    But, having said that, I’m happy to correspond with those Baha’is you mentioned.

    [quote post="507"]The basic problem was that middle-class american and persian bahais were not �comfortable� with poor, spanish-speaking-only, farm workers showing up at bahai events. While there was certainly an element of pure racism at times, I think the larger problem was that the �needs� of the farm workers was felt to be so overwhelming that the �conventional� bahais simply could not fulfill them and maintain their usual, comfortable middle-class lives. The cognitive dissonance of belonging to a religion that talks about social justice, but does not actually �deliver� onit, was too great, and the unsupportive �city bahais� withdrew into their happy bubble of committee meetings and �firesides�, tea and cookies, and floats and parades and brochures. (following the pattern of the larger, non-bahai, society’s �political non-involvement� in social justice and economic-political reform. hahaha.)[/quote]

    We had a similar problem where there was a huge influx of indigenous Baha’is who had thought the Baha’i Faith would help solve issues of social and racial injustice. They very quickly realised that the persians and anglophiles weren’t sympathetic to the injustices these people had suffered and within 2-5 years the majority had become inactive or returned to their old religions.

  • farhan

    Grover wrote:

    “…there was a huge influx of indigenous Baha’is who had thought the Baha’i Faith would help solve issues of social and racial injustice.”

    Once again, people come to the Baha’i Faith to see what they can give as service; if they come in to see what they can get out of it, which has been the attitude to various churches who provide for indegenious people, they can only be disappointed.

    When we see dysfunctions, we can try and see what we can do to help, instead of trying to find a better provider elsewhere.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Grover wrote:

    “…there was a huge influx of indigenous Baha’is who had thought the Baha’i Faith would help solve issues of social and racial injustice.”

    Once again, people come to the Baha’i Faith to see what they can give as service; if they come in to see what they can get out of it, which has been the attitude to various churches who provide for indegenious people, they can only be disappointed.

    When we see dysfunctions, we can try and see what we can do to help, instead of trying to find a better provider elsewhere.

  • Grover

    Hi Farhan,

    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society. After all, the hype and hoopla about the Baha’i Faith is about justice. Baha’u’llah goes on and on about justice. What did they join? A religion that was largely impotent, whose populace was a bunch of uncaring persians and whiteys. Wouldn’t you be a bit disappointed?

  • Grover

    Hi Farhan,

    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society. After all, the hype and hoopla about the Baha’i Faith is about justice. Baha’u’llah goes on and on about justice. What did they join? A religion that was largely impotent, whose populace was a bunch of uncaring persians and whiteys. Wouldn’t you be a bit disappointed?

  • ep

    re: BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION AND MANIPULTING PUBLIC OPINION

    Recycling is popular again, so:

    As I said previously:
    | It is very efficient, from a �survival viewpoint�, for a
    | dysfunctional institution (or a dysfunctional organizational
    | culture or subculture), to simply fool people into thinking
    | that things are (or can be) different and better, �if only�
    | the people at the bottom of the organization understand that
    | they (and not the bureaucrats and leadership elites) are
    | the �cause� of the problems/solutions.

    The “fixes” that can be done by “grass roots” institute processes are natural “organic” processes that can easily happen when a dysfunctional bureacuracy (or dysfunctional organizational culture) does not interfere.

    The problem of course is that part of the process of bureacuratic reinvention that the dysfunctional bahai organization constantly engages in consists of ABSORBING anything “good” that comes from the grass roots and turning it into something dysfunctional.

    You appear to have great hope that somehow the vicious cycle of an evil organization absorbing “good” and turning it “bad” will somehow stop if more good is brought in by “watering sprouts”. This is a bizarre assertion, as I previously stated, because the overwhelming evidence is that the top-down organizational more has historically taken on more and more power, not less.

    The obvious analysis would be that “things will really change” when the top-dysfunctional down organization collapses in on its own rot and decay.

    The sure signs that “real” reform might be starting to take place would be:

    1) open, honest recognition that failure currently exists because of dysfunctional organizational culture, and

    2) open, honest recognition of the long history of a “disconnect” between the noble ideals of social justice, world peace, etc., and the actual functioning of much of bahai culture.

    3) all of which has create enormous dehumanization, in complete contradiction to and exactly opposite of the many, pervasive mentions of high ideals in bahai scripture.

    I predict that the “gravity well” of Shiism (reinforced by western fundmentalism) will prevent those “western style” reforms. Due to Shiia origins, bahai culture is all about “saving face” and putting on a superficial image of success. And, people in power like to hold onto it. To do that, they rarely admit their mistakes, especially when they can’t see any easy way “out” of a crises while maintaining “tradition” and “continuity”. The systems is riak-averse and lacking in ability to innovate.

    The ratio of innovation to stasis is very low. Change is mostly glacial in bahai, and most of the change that does exist is negative.

    [quote comment="54330"]Eric wrote:

    “Many stories about what “really” happened when the “mass teaching” was “stopped” are in circulation.”

    Eric, I can tell you many more; I was involved in a mass teaching effort in 1972 and I moved in as a home front pioneer and helplessly looked at a brand new community of some 25 melt away.

    At the first meeting one new believer said that gypsies were robbers and didn’t want to work with them, and 6 new believers left. At teh first LSA meeting someone broght in a bottle of champagne to feast teh LSA. He got tolf of and again two or three LSA members believers left…

    At that time I realised that before undertaking mass teaching, we would need to provide catering facilities first.

    This is all what the Teacher Training Institute is about. Getting the elementary concepts to inexperienced teachers prior and at the same time as enrolling new believers, so that these new souls can be catered for through the core activities. And it is working, in spite of all the “learning problems” we have witnessed.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Hi Farhan,

    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society. After all, the hype and hoopla about the Baha’i Faith is about justice. Baha’u’llah goes on and on about justice. What did they join? A religion that was largely impotent, whose populace was a bunch of uncaring persians and whiteys. Wouldn’t you be a bit disappointed?[/quote]

  • ep

    re: BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION AND MANIPULTING PUBLIC OPINION

    Recycling is popular again, so:

    As I said previously:
    | It is very efficient, from a �survival viewpoint�, for a
    | dysfunctional institution (or a dysfunctional organizational
    | culture or subculture), to simply fool people into thinking
    | that things are (or can be) different and better, �if only�
    | the people at the bottom of the organization understand that
    | they (and not the bureaucrats and leadership elites) are
    | the �cause� of the problems/solutions.

    The “fixes” that can be done by “grass roots” institute processes are natural “organic” processes that can easily happen when a dysfunctional bureacuracy (or dysfunctional organizational culture) does not interfere.

    The problem of course is that part of the process of bureacuratic reinvention that the dysfunctional bahai organization constantly engages in consists of ABSORBING anything “good” that comes from the grass roots and turning it into something dysfunctional.

    You appear to have great hope that somehow the vicious cycle of an evil organization absorbing “good” and turning it “bad” will somehow stop if more good is brought in by “watering sprouts”. This is a bizarre assertion, as I previously stated, because the overwhelming evidence is that the top-down organizational more has historically taken on more and more power, not less.

    The obvious analysis would be that “things will really change” when the top-dysfunctional down organization collapses in on its own rot and decay.

    The sure signs that “real” reform might be starting to take place would be:

    1) open, honest recognition that failure currently exists because of dysfunctional organizational culture, and

    2) open, honest recognition of the long history of a “disconnect” between the noble ideals of social justice, world peace, etc., and the actual functioning of much of bahai culture.

    3) all of which has create enormous dehumanization, in complete contradiction to and exactly opposite of the many, pervasive mentions of high ideals in bahai scripture.

    I predict that the “gravity well” of Shiism (reinforced by western fundmentalism) will prevent those “western style” reforms. Due to Shiia origins, bahai culture is all about “saving face” and putting on a superficial image of success. And, people in power like to hold onto it. To do that, they rarely admit their mistakes, especially when they can’t see any easy way “out” of a crises while maintaining “tradition” and “continuity”. The systems is riak-averse and lacking in ability to innovate.

    The ratio of innovation to stasis is very low. Change is mostly glacial in bahai, and most of the change that does exist is negative.

    [quote comment="54330"]Eric wrote:

    “Many stories about what “really” happened when the “mass teaching” was “stopped” are in circulation.”

    Eric, I can tell you many more; I was involved in a mass teaching effort in 1972 and I moved in as a home front pioneer and helplessly looked at a brand new community of some 25 melt away.

    At the first meeting one new believer said that gypsies were robbers and didn’t want to work with them, and 6 new believers left. At teh first LSA meeting someone broght in a bottle of champagne to feast teh LSA. He got tolf of and again two or three LSA members believers left…

    At that time I realised that before undertaking mass teaching, we would need to provide catering facilities first.

    This is all what the Teacher Training Institute is about. Getting the elementary concepts to inexperienced teachers prior and at the same time as enrolling new believers, so that these new souls can be catered for through the core activities. And it is working, in spite of all the “learning problems” we have witnessed.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Hi Farhan,

    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society. After all, the hype and hoopla about the Baha’i Faith is about justice. Baha’u’llah goes on and on about justice. What did they join? A religion that was largely impotent, whose populace was a bunch of uncaring persians and whiteys. Wouldn’t you be a bit disappointed?[/quote]

  • farhan

    Grover wrote:
    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society.

    Grover, you are right, and I understand your point.

    Having lived in Africa and in French Polynesia, I am familiar with the interaction of cultures and the wealthy with impoverished populations.

    Giving what is urgently needed is one thing;
    providing them with means of providing with themselves ia the next step: That is where the Chinese say it is better to teach how to fish than provide fish.

    When you realise that given the fishing material AND the know-how, tribal tensions are an obstacle to efficient social functionning brings us to the specific wealth that the Faith is attempting to provide.

    i will summerize na example: We have surgeons trained in Europe. They cannot go back to work in Africa because they do nut have the necessary environment for practicing their speciality, and are not welcome home. So they end up doing surgery in the US. The brain drain.

    We need to bring about a service oriented society as opposed to the consumer society.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Grover wrote:
    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society.

    Grover, you are right, and I understand your point.

    Having lived in Africa and in French Polynesia, I am familiar with the interaction of cultures and the wealthy with impoverished populations.

    Giving what is urgently needed is one thing;
    providing them with means of providing with themselves ia the next step: That is where the Chinese say it is better to teach how to fish than provide fish.

    When you realise that given the fishing material AND the know-how, tribal tensions are an obstacle to efficient social functionning brings us to the specific wealth that the Faith is attempting to provide.

    i will summerize na example: We have surgeons trained in Europe. They cannot go back to work in Africa because they do nut have the necessary environment for practicing their speciality, and are not welcome home. So they end up doing surgery in the US. The brain drain.

    We need to bring about a service oriented society as opposed to the consumer society.

  • ep

    re: the bahai solution to injustice and racism is to spray with copious doses of “spiritual herbicide” until the “shoots” grow in the “proper” direction. right, that is “just brilliant”.

    Farhan,

    You seem to be trying to describe some kind of paradigm shift (away from tribal politics and culture) with reference to “development” work (international aid, etc.) and indigenous people, oppressed/marginalized, and so forth.

    It is very curious to me how little recognition to historical injustices is given in bahai. The history of bahai infighting and how the current “paradigm” came to be the dominant one in bahai is likewise “covered up” and mostly forgotten. When the very understanding of how meaning came to be constructed within a culture or religion is obscured, the underlying “value system” that drives things has become pathological.

    Since institutional bahai culture is mostly unaware of its own “real” past, it tends to carry that attitude of historical indifference to others. Which is profoundly dehumanizing to others. Which is why there is a giant “disconnect” between the rhetoric of social progress, world peace, etc., spoken of by bahai “teachers” (and bureaucrat apologists) and what actually goes on inside bahai.

    As I’ve mentioned before, in Shoghi Effendi’s writings on goveranance, there are specific statements that are hostile to the kinds of “national liberation” movements that arose when colonialism and imperialism waned. Clearly S.E. envisioned a global bahai quasi-theocracy that combined elements of islamic and christian emperialism. So, the intention is to first absorb “undeveloped” cultures, then put them on display in a museum-like scenario to facilitate “unity in diversity” photo opportunities for mass-media consumption by people in the comfort of middle class existence.

    Unfortunately bahai does not (currently) have a good model for understanding how cultures develop/evolve, and how paradigms get mixed together in complex/advanced cultures.

    So, what they fall back on are outdated metaphysics and promoting a failed model of social progress that is based on a dysfunctional bureaucracy.

    The bahai system works against grass roots “service” initiatives for all the reasons I’ve previously described.

    You keep proposing that “service” and “grass roots” will “somehow” lead to “reform” – without any EXPLICIT institutional reform that recognizes past errors and examines TRUTH in an UNVARNISHED manner – but you do not address the problem that any form of “grass roots” initiative that starts to veer away from the conformist, institutional model promoted by the bahai bureacuracy is ruthlessly trampled and pruned into obliviion and then sprayed with copious doses of “spiritual herbicide” until the “shoots” grow in the direction supportive of the dominant, imperial-theocratic bahai paradigm.

    To really understand the evolutionary (or “emergent”) trajectory of global culture (and what it “offers” oppressed, marginalized, underdeveloped people in terms of “social progress”), you have to go outside bahai thinking.

    bahai contains a bunch of unworkable contradictions that have become covered by layer after layer after layer of lies and deception.

    there are a very significant set of “spiritual” problems having to do with postmodernism, pluralism and relativism that urgently need to be addressed in the world, but bahai is “stuck” in promoting a failed bureaucratic paradigm so that the current leadership elites can “save face” by not having to admit their errors or their predecessor’s errors.

    appalling, backward and dehumanizing.

    [quote comment="54349"]Grover wrote:
    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society.

    Grover, you are right, and I understand your point.

    Having lived in Africa and in French Polynesia, I am familiar with the interaction of cultures and the wealthy with impoverished populations.

    Giving what is urgently needed is one thing;
    providing them with means of providing with themselves ia the next step: That is where the Chinese say it is better to teach how to fish than provide fish.

    When you realise that given the fishing material AND the know-how, tribal tensions are an obstacle to efficient social functionning brings us to the specific wealth that the Faith is attempting to provide.

    i will summerize na example: We have surgeons trained in Europe. They cannot go back to work in Africa because they do nut have the necessary environment for practicing their speciality, and are not welcome home. So they end up doing surgery in the US. The brain drain.

    We need to bring about a service oriented society as opposed to the consumer society.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Grover wrote:
    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society.

    Grover, you are right, and I understand your point.

    Having lived in Africa and in French Polynesia, I am familiar with the interaction of cultures and the wealthy with impoverished populations.

    Giving what is urgently needed is one thing;
    providing them with means of providing with themselves ia the next step: That is where the Chinese say it is better to teach how to fish than provide fish.

    When you realise that given the fishing material AND the know-how, tribal tensions are an obstacle to efficient social functionning brings us to the specific wealth that the Faith is attempting to provide.

    i will summerize na example: We have surgeons trained in Europe. They cannot go back to work in Africa because they do nut have the necessary environment for practicing their speciality, and are not welcome home. So they end up doing surgery in the US. The brain drain.

    We need to bring about a service oriented society as opposed to the consumer society.[/quote]

  • ep

    re: the bahai solution to injustice and racism is to spray with copious doses of “spiritual herbicide” until the “shoots” grow in the “proper” direction. right, that is “just brilliant”.

    Farhan,

    You seem to be trying to describe some kind of paradigm shift (away from tribal politics and culture) with reference to “development” work (international aid, etc.) and indigenous people, oppressed/marginalized, and so forth.

    It is very curious to me how little recognition to historical injustices is given in bahai. The history of bahai infighting and how the current “paradigm” came to be the dominant one in bahai is likewise “covered up” and mostly forgotten. When the very understanding of how meaning came to be constructed within a culture or religion is obscured, the underlying “value system” that drives things has become pathological.

    Since institutional bahai culture is mostly unaware of its own “real” past, it tends to carry that attitude of historical indifference to others. Which is profoundly dehumanizing to others. Which is why there is a giant “disconnect” between the rhetoric of social progress, world peace, etc., spoken of by bahai “teachers” (and bureaucrat apologists) and what actually goes on inside bahai.

    As I’ve mentioned before, in Shoghi Effendi’s writings on goveranance, there are specific statements that are hostile to the kinds of “national liberation” movements that arose when colonialism and imperialism waned. Clearly S.E. envisioned a global bahai quasi-theocracy that combined elements of islamic and christian emperialism. So, the intention is to first absorb “undeveloped” cultures, then put them on display in a museum-like scenario to facilitate “unity in diversity” photo opportunities for mass-media consumption by people in the comfort of middle class existence.

    Unfortunately bahai does not (currently) have a good model for understanding how cultures develop/evolve, and how paradigms get mixed together in complex/advanced cultures.

    So, what they fall back on are outdated metaphysics and promoting a failed model of social progress that is based on a dysfunctional bureaucracy.

    The bahai system works against grass roots “service” initiatives for all the reasons I’ve previously described.

    You keep proposing that “service” and “grass roots” will “somehow” lead to “reform” – without any EXPLICIT institutional reform that recognizes past errors and examines TRUTH in an UNVARNISHED manner – but you do not address the problem that any form of “grass roots” initiative that starts to veer away from the conformist, institutional model promoted by the bahai bureacuracy is ruthlessly trampled and pruned into obliviion and then sprayed with copious doses of “spiritual herbicide” until the “shoots” grow in the direction supportive of the dominant, imperial-theocratic bahai paradigm.

    To really understand the evolutionary (or “emergent”) trajectory of global culture (and what it “offers” oppressed, marginalized, underdeveloped people in terms of “social progress”), you have to go outside bahai thinking.

    bahai contains a bunch of unworkable contradictions that have become covered by layer after layer after layer of lies and deception.

    there are a very significant set of “spiritual” problems having to do with postmodernism, pluralism and relativism that urgently need to be addressed in the world, but bahai is “stuck” in promoting a failed bureaucratic paradigm so that the current leadership elites can “save face” by not having to admit their errors or their predecessor’s errors.

    appalling, backward and dehumanizing.

    [quote comment="54349"]Grover wrote:
    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society.

    Grover, you are right, and I understand your point.

    Having lived in Africa and in French Polynesia, I am familiar with the interaction of cultures and the wealthy with impoverished populations.

    Giving what is urgently needed is one thing;
    providing them with means of providing with themselves ia the next step: That is where the Chinese say it is better to teach how to fish than provide fish.

    When you realise that given the fishing material AND the know-how, tribal tensions are an obstacle to efficient social functionning brings us to the specific wealth that the Faith is attempting to provide.

    i will summerize na example: We have surgeons trained in Europe. They cannot go back to work in Africa because they do nut have the necessary environment for practicing their speciality, and are not welcome home. So they end up doing surgery in the US. The brain drain.

    We need to bring about a service oriented society as opposed to the consumer society.[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Grover wrote:
    Thats just plain wrong. They joined because of the hope that some group or organisation would recognise their plight and recognise their place in society.

    Grover, you are right, and I understand your point.

    Having lived in Africa and in French Polynesia, I am familiar with the interaction of cultures and the wealthy with impoverished populations.

    Giving what is urgently needed is one thing;
    providing them with means of providing with themselves ia the next step: That is where the Chinese say it is better to teach how to fish than provide fish.

    When you realise that given the fishing material AND the know-how, tribal tensions are an obstacle to efficient social functionning brings us to the specific wealth that the Faith is attempting to provide.

    i will summerize na example: We have surgeons trained in Europe. They cannot go back to work in Africa because they do nut have the necessary environment for practicing their speciality, and are not welcome home. So they end up doing surgery in the US. The brain drain.

    We need to bring about a service oriented society as opposed to the consumer society.[/quote]

  • farhan

    Eric wrote:

    It is very curious to me how little recognition to historical injustices is given in bahai.

    I agree Eric; the Baha’i Faith insists on what should be done, rather than insiting on the innumerous mistakes being done. Entirely different from the current intellectual approach where we make a diagnosis, accuse the culprits, and eventually suggest their punishment, without suggesting a viable soulution.

    This is a huge jump: the Divine Physician making the diagnosis and prescribing, instead of us trying to make a diagnoss, with no remedy to suggest.

    We can go around the garden and diagnose all the mishaps, when the gardener is telling us to ignore the dying plants, because it is time to dig a well and provide means for canalising the water instead of proping up the poor plants.

    BTW, here is an interesting site with a great video of the congressman Kirk’s strong defense on Bahai’s of Iran.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwaglgNjYgs

    warmest

    Farhan

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Eric wrote:

    It is very curious to me how little recognition to historical injustices is given in bahai.

    I agree Eric; the Baha’i Faith insists on what should be done, rather than insiting on the innumerous mistakes being done. Entirely different from the current intellectual approach where we make a diagnosis, accuse the culprits, and eventually suggest their punishment, without suggesting a viable soulution.

    This is a huge jump: the Divine Physician making the diagnosis and prescribing, instead of us trying to make a diagnoss, with no remedy to suggest.

    We can go around the garden and diagnose all the mishaps, when the gardener is telling us to ignore the dying plants, because it is time to dig a well and provide means for canalising the water instead of proping up the poor plants.

    BTW, here is an interesting site with a great video of the congressman Kirk’s strong defense on Bahai’s of Iran.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwaglgNjYgs

    warmest

    Farhan

  • Grover

    Hi Farhan, I must say your example for Ruhi is a bit silly:

    [quote post="507"]i will summerize na example: We have surgeons trained in Europe. They cannot go back to work in Africa because they do nut have the necessary environment for practicing their speciality, and are not welcome home. So they end up doing surgery in the US. The brain drain.[/quote]

    The problem with surgeons trained overseas not having work in Africa is a problem with adequate resources and political and social priority. How on earth is Ruhi ever going to solve that? Let me guess, mass conversion of local Africans? They’ll probably be waiting a couple of thousand years given the current growth rate of the Faith. And then, just because you’ve converted them all, is the problem going to go away? No, because as experience has shown, converts always bring their baggage with them into the Faith. African needs are much more primal: Food, shelter, security, income and community.

  • Grover

    Hi Farhan, I must say your example for Ruhi is a bit silly:

    [quote post="507"]i will summerize na example: We have surgeons trained in Europe. They cannot go back to work in Africa because they do nut have the necessary environment for practicing their speciality, and are not welcome home. So they end up doing surgery in the US. The brain drain.[/quote]

    The problem with surgeons trained overseas not having work in Africa is a problem with adequate resources and political and social priority. How on earth is Ruhi ever going to solve that? Let me guess, mass conversion of local Africans? They’ll probably be waiting a couple of thousand years given the current growth rate of the Faith. And then, just because you’ve converted them all, is the problem going to go away? No, because as experience has shown, converts always bring their baggage with them into the Faith. African needs are much more primal: Food, shelter, security, income and community.

  • P

    The more I look at the current status of the Bahai Faith, the more I see similarities between Chrisitan groups that are waitng “the end times”. Of course the Faith believes the old religions end time occurred with the coming of Bahaullah. But now we have a new “end time” one where the Bahais are waiting for the social order to collapse before they an actually do anything (or be asked to do anything). In the meantime, they keeep their heads stuck in Ruhi books and feel good about themselves. Its really weird because this is not the Bahai Faith that Abdul-Baha lived. From the stories I read about his life- He was VERY active in social causes. I think a lot of it comes from the words and warnings instilled in Shoghi Effendi’s writings. But something else is going on, because as a youth in the 80′s, I do remember the Faith and the UHJ talking more about socio/economic projects. But that doesn’t seem to be in the forefront as much anymore. It has been replaced with the attitude that ‘well we really can’t change anything so we need to focus on ourselves while the world falls apart, then we’ll help out.’

  • P

    The more I look at the current status of the Bahai Faith, the more I see similarities between Chrisitan groups that are waitng “the end times”. Of course the Faith believes the old religions end time occurred with the coming of Bahaullah. But now we have a new “end time” one where the Bahais are waiting for the social order to collapse before they an actually do anything (or be asked to do anything). In the meantime, they keeep their heads stuck in Ruhi books and feel good about themselves. Its really weird because this is not the Bahai Faith that Abdul-Baha lived. From the stories I read about his life- He was VERY active in social causes. I think a lot of it comes from the words and warnings instilled in Shoghi Effendi’s writings. But something else is going on, because as a youth in the 80′s, I do remember the Faith and the UHJ talking more about socio/economic projects. But that doesn’t seem to be in the forefront as much anymore. It has been replaced with the attitude that ‘well we really can’t change anything so we need to focus on ourselves while the world falls apart, then we’ll help out.’

  • farhan

    Grover wrote:
    I must say your example for Ruhi is a bit silly:

    Sorry, Grover, I jumped a step in my reasoning

    My point is that giving help to poor countries, as essential as it might be, is insufficient. We need to provide competences; but this in itself is not sufficient: we also have to provide the basis for a peaceful social structure. This is the hard bit. It is easy to bomb out a greedy and blood thirsty dictator, but difficult to educate a society for a peacefull growth.

    This is the whole purpose of God’s revelation: spirutualise, the spirit being the invisible bond that attracts and welds people together. The purpose of the Institute Process (of which Ruhi is only a small instrument), is to help populations evolve towards a social structure based on service and not on the survival of the fittest bully.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Grover wrote:
    I must say your example for Ruhi is a bit silly:

    Sorry, Grover, I jumped a step in my reasoning

    My point is that giving help to poor countries, as essential as it might be, is insufficient. We need to provide competences; but this in itself is not sufficient: we also have to provide the basis for a peaceful social structure. This is the hard bit. It is easy to bomb out a greedy and blood thirsty dictator, but difficult to educate a society for a peacefull growth.

    This is the whole purpose of God’s revelation: spirutualise, the spirit being the invisible bond that attracts and welds people together. The purpose of the Institute Process (of which Ruhi is only a small instrument), is to help populations evolve towards a social structure based on service and not on the survival of the fittest bully.

  • farhan

    P wrote:
    The more I look at the current status of the Bahai Faith, the more I see similarities between Chrisitan groups that are waitng “the end times”.

    P, the Baha’is believe that we are in “the end of times” for the last 164 years. The old order is being rolled up, and a new one rolled out in it’s place.

    In the interval, we are experiencing chaos and disruption. the greater plan of god is what is going out in the world. the minor plan of God is what is being organised by Baha’is; the baha’is are not waiting for collapse: they are witnessing it like every one, hoping that the sooner humanity will proceed to spiritual values, the less suffering there will be for every one;

    The aim is not the victory of Baha’is, but the redemption of humanity and the day when “the kingdom is Gods’s will be stamped upon the brow of all it’s habitants”.

    Our aim is not to make Baha’is, but enrolling servants of humanity is a means of accelerating this process.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    P wrote:
    The more I look at the current status of the Bahai Faith, the more I see similarities between Chrisitan groups that are waitng “the end times”.

    P, the Baha’is believe that we are in “the end of times” for the last 164 years. The old order is being rolled up, and a new one rolled out in it’s place.

    In the interval, we are experiencing chaos and disruption. the greater plan of god is what is going out in the world. the minor plan of God is what is being organised by Baha’is; the baha’is are not waiting for collapse: they are witnessing it like every one, hoping that the sooner humanity will proceed to spiritual values, the less suffering there will be for every one;

    The aim is not the victory of Baha’is, but the redemption of humanity and the day when “the kingdom is Gods’s will be stamped upon the brow of all it’s habitants”.

    Our aim is not to make Baha’is, but enrolling servants of humanity is a means of accelerating this process.

  • P

    Farhan- the end times that Christians await is the destruction of the world and the coming of Christ. As a Bahai, you know the premise is that Bahaullah is the end times as Christians believe did not happen. William Sears wrote a whole book about it. I was taught it from children’s classes. It is an end of an era and the beginning of the Bahai era. So no Bahais do not believe that we are in the ‘end times’ as referring to what’s in the old testament. But Bahais have created a new end times, waiting for the destruction of the world instead of actively participating in it. The cloistering of the community is shown in its overemphasis of something like Ruhi instead of using the time to get involved in community service. Its shown its in emphasis on reading only works by approved Bahai shclars, instead of reaching out and learning about other ideas. So my image of a community that is looking more invward and jsut waiting for the rest of humnaity to turn to it is valid.

  • P

    Farhan- the end times that Christians await is the destruction of the world and the coming of Christ. As a Bahai, you know the premise is that Bahaullah is the end times as Christians believe did not happen. William Sears wrote a whole book about it. I was taught it from children’s classes. It is an end of an era and the beginning of the Bahai era. So no Bahais do not believe that we are in the ‘end times’ as referring to what’s in the old testament. But Bahais have created a new end times, waiting for the destruction of the world instead of actively participating in it. The cloistering of the community is shown in its overemphasis of something like Ruhi instead of using the time to get involved in community service. Its shown its in emphasis on reading only works by approved Bahai shclars, instead of reaching out and learning about other ideas. So my image of a community that is looking more invward and jsut waiting for the rest of humnaity to turn to it is valid.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]William Sears wrote a whole book about it. I was taught it from children’s classes. It is an end of an era and the beginning of the Bahai era.
    [/quote]

    P,

    I met Bill Sears several times. A wonderful, wonderful man. I liked him very, very much. I always liked “Thief In The Night”. But his favorite work that he wrote was “Release The Sun”.

    But you now need to move on up to a higher level of Cosmic insight and knowledge. All the Abrahamic religions of the Middle East are COMPLETELY unoriginal. They are ALL various RE-FRIED versions of the Zoroastrian system of spiritual cosmology. But there is a much more ancient system of COSMIC THOUGHT behind even that. That is where many thinking people are going now to keep their spiritual batteries charged to be able to do service to the peoples of the world as real hands on opportunities come every single day of one’s life.

    Maybe these books would help you get to a higher system of insight:

    http://phoenixandturtle.net/excerptmill/santillana.htm

    http://www.robertschoch.net/The%20Temple%20of%20Man.htm

    http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/

    No offense, but my observation is that Persians are the least intellectually curious nation on Earth. Just an incredibly permanent static flat footed mindset no matter what the religion or subject of study. Is it in the DNA? Is it because they were the “bend over at any time” subjects of the first World Empire of human slaughter? A nation of people who could not adjust their battle formation against a Greek Army led by Alexander the Great and got their Brill-O pad pubic hair decorated lard asses kicked?

    If you are from a Persian Baha’i family I really feel for you. It must have been a living hell. Breathing Shia Islam on the subconscious level must be part of the psychological geography of the entire culture. Always turn your soul over to a “Mulla” figure to tell you what to do in every aspect of life. This has become the main psychological current now in the BF. I now think it can never be overcome.

    The ideas behind the esoteric thought systems of the Middle East are much more profound than what has come down to us through the completely dumbed down and garbled religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

    “Thief In The Night” does hold up because in it’s core orientation it is about the concept of World Ages which was also what got Christianity going if you know the history of New Testament Times. I suggest the fine book “The River of God”.

    These people in the below link are doing what the Baha’is were supposed to have been doing for the last 100 years if a bunch of incredibly psychologically weak, emotionally needy, and not very smart gasping people had not made Shoghi Effendi the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age instead of Baha’u’llah and lost all the spiritual power the Revelation had.

    http://www.Abwoon.com

    I once thought the Baha’i Faith could be saved. I see no chance whatsoever of that ever happening in the lifetime of anyone here now. It is going to have to go to total financial collapse for it to be eventually purified and reborn with people who may re-discover it’s once profound spiritual current in the context of the deeper systems of human Cosmic knowledge. With or without that connection, all revelation and spiritual insight for the human race will now come from science. Especially particle physics.

    These insights will empower people to try to improve the lot of everyone on the planet in their daily work. The spirit of the World Age is far beyond the dysfunctional BAO now.

    Your insights are spot on. I am very sorry you had to go through what you have gone through.

    Best regards,

    Craig

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]William Sears wrote a whole book about it. I was taught it from children’s classes. It is an end of an era and the beginning of the Bahai era.
    [/quote]

    P,

    I met Bill Sears several times. A wonderful, wonderful man. I liked him very, very much. I always liked “Thief In The Night”. But his favorite work that he wrote was “Release The Sun”.

    But you now need to move on up to a higher level of Cosmic insight and knowledge. All the Abrahamic religions of the Middle East are COMPLETELY unoriginal. They are ALL various RE-FRIED versions of the Zoroastrian system of spiritual cosmology. But there is a much more ancient system of COSMIC THOUGHT behind even that. That is where many thinking people are going now to keep their spiritual batteries charged to be able to do service to the peoples of the world as real hands on opportunities come every single day of one’s life.

    Maybe these books would help you get to a higher system of insight:

    http://phoenixandturtle.net/excerptmill/santillana.htm

    http://www.robertschoch.net/The%20Temple%20of%20Man.htm

    http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/

    No offense, but my observation is that Persians are the least intellectually curious nation on Earth. Just an incredibly permanent static flat footed mindset no matter what the religion or subject of study. Is it in the DNA? Is it because they were the “bend over at any time” subjects of the first World Empire of human slaughter? A nation of people who could not adjust their battle formation against a Greek Army led by Alexander the Great and got their Brill-O pad pubic hair decorated lard asses kicked?

    If you are from a Persian Baha’i family I really feel for you. It must have been a living hell. Breathing Shia Islam on the subconscious level must be part of the psychological geography of the entire culture. Always turn your soul over to a “Mulla” figure to tell you what to do in every aspect of life. This has become the main psychological current now in the BF. I now think it can never be overcome.

    The ideas behind the esoteric thought systems of the Middle East are much more profound than what has come down to us through the completely dumbed down and garbled religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

    “Thief In The Night” does hold up because in it’s core orientation it is about the concept of World Ages which was also what got Christianity going if you know the history of New Testament Times. I suggest the fine book “The River of God”.

    These people in the below link are doing what the Baha’is were supposed to have been doing for the last 100 years if a bunch of incredibly psychologically weak, emotionally needy, and not very smart gasping people had not made Shoghi Effendi the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age instead of Baha’u’llah and lost all the spiritual power the Revelation had.

    http://www.Abwoon.com

    I once thought the Baha’i Faith could be saved. I see no chance whatsoever of that ever happening in the lifetime of anyone here now. It is going to have to go to total financial collapse for it to be eventually purified and reborn with people who may re-discover it’s once profound spiritual current in the context of the deeper systems of human Cosmic knowledge. With or without that connection, all revelation and spiritual insight for the human race will now come from science. Especially particle physics.

    These insights will empower people to try to improve the lot of everyone on the planet in their daily work. The spirit of the World Age is far beyond the dysfunctional BAO now.

    Your insights are spot on. I am very sorry you had to go through what you have gone through.

    Best regards,

    Craig

  • Concourse on Low

    Craig,

    You’ve obviously not hung out with the right type of Persians. I suggest you associate with more intellectual, non-Bahai Persians. They exist, in great numbers. You just won’t find too many of them among Bahais.

    Regarding Alexander, I doubt he would agree with your assessment of Persian military skills and civilization, seeing as he openly Persianized himself by adopting Persian customs, assimilating Persian soldiers and cavalry into his Macedonian army, and marrying 10 000 of his soldiers to Perisan women with the goal of breeding a super imperial race.

  • Concourse on Low

    Craig,

    You’ve obviously not hung out with the right type of Persians. I suggest you associate with more intellectual, non-Bahai Persians. They exist, in great numbers. You just won’t find too many of them among Bahais.

    Regarding Alexander, I doubt he would agree with your assessment of Persian military skills and civilization, seeing as he openly Persianized himself by adopting Persian customs, assimilating Persian soldiers and cavalry into his Macedonian army, and marrying 10 000 of his soldiers to Perisan women with the goal of breeding a super imperial race.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Craig,

    You’ve obviously not hung out with the right type of Persians. I suggest you associate with more intellectual, non-Bahai Persians. They exist, in great numbers. You just won’t find too many of them among Bahais.

    Regarding Alexander, I doubt he would agree with your assessment of Persian military skills and civilization, seeing as he openly Persianized himself by adopting Persian customs, assimilating Persian soldiers and cavalry into his Macedonian army, and marrying 10 000 of his soldiers to Perisan women with the goal of breeding a super imperial race.[/quote]

    COL,

    All good points. Touche!

    And, yes, Alexander’s intermarried gene pool was strong as is manifest down to the present day. Where my sister is in Afghanistan you see every race and hair and eye color. Some people look Greek. Some look Italian! But they are Afghan! After intermarriage with his Army maybe the Brill-O pad pubic hair was an advantage after all.

    I actually got this line of commenting from Paul Rodriguez’s stand up act on the various types of pubic hair of all nations. He rips on everyone so turn about is fair play if anyone wants to rip on my Welsh pubic hair. Me. Tom Jones. Richard Burton.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Craig,

    You’ve obviously not hung out with the right type of Persians. I suggest you associate with more intellectual, non-Bahai Persians. They exist, in great numbers. You just won’t find too many of them among Bahais.

    Regarding Alexander, I doubt he would agree with your assessment of Persian military skills and civilization, seeing as he openly Persianized himself by adopting Persian customs, assimilating Persian soldiers and cavalry into his Macedonian army, and marrying 10 000 of his soldiers to Perisan women with the goal of breeding a super imperial race.[/quote]

    COL,

    All good points. Touche!

    And, yes, Alexander’s intermarried gene pool was strong as is manifest down to the present day. Where my sister is in Afghanistan you see every race and hair and eye color. Some people look Greek. Some look Italian! But they are Afghan! After intermarriage with his Army maybe the Brill-O pad pubic hair was an advantage after all.

    I actually got this line of commenting from Paul Rodriguez’s stand up act on the various types of pubic hair of all nations. He rips on everyone so turn about is fair play if anyone wants to rip on my Welsh pubic hair. Me. Tom Jones. Richard Burton.

  • ep

    RE: “El Plan Infinito” – BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION AND THE MASTERFUL CLOWNS OF SPIN AND DECEPTION

    Farhan,

    (As you may know, the great writer Isabell Allende satirized meaningless bahai rhetoric and vacuous bahai abstractions in “El Plan Infinito”.)

    You are in full-tilt spin mode! Awesome. You take loyalist evasion and “pivoting” on an issue to new, hilarious heights of absurdity. There could be no better entertainment. BRAVISIMO!!! :)

    The beginning to the solution to bahai racism is to recognise its origins, and to stop the denial. I saw a group of 25 persian bahai youth get up at a large conference about 7 or 8 years ago (San Diego) and scream at their parents (in front of 800 people) about the utter hypocrisy of paying “lip service” to the “unity of mankind” while acting in a totally racist/classist manner in their “real world” interactions with other people. The youth said that they can understand their grandparents being too backward to change, but not their parents, most of whom came to the USA when fairly young, and should have been able to unlearn racist, classist, and elitist attitudes.

    Shotly after, a persian friend of mine told me how an old bahai woman from Fiji, whose family originally were Indian muslims, was subject to horrible racist attitudes from the persians in their community. The Fijian woman made the horrible mistake of suggesting that the assembly “actually listen” to what non-persians in the community had to say. As you probably know, muslims in Fiji are subject to considerable discrimination as a “minority”. However, instead of making a basic adjustment to a person from an “oppressed” background, the persians went on the attack. any persians that dared to support the woman’s case were accused of “disloyalty” to the other persians. several americans realized that the pitiful rhetoric about the “oneness of mankind” was completely empty.

    They knew that they had been lied to by “bahai teachers”. Sometimes is is “just that simple”.

    Evolution and democracy are the solution to such problems, not an absurd, backward bahai system of dysfunctional bureaucratic reinvention that erases any memory of past errors and heaps (or should I say “sprinkles”) distain on any call for reform or improvement.

    You are just trying to “save face” (somehow, presumably out of desperation), for the collective bahai system, which is failed. The world has no time to wait for such silliness or more empty, grand abstractions. People want justice and equality, and have no patience for failed ideas or beliefs that get recycled over and over and over no matter how many times they are proven to not work.

    I find it incredible that you seem to be proposing that a complete lack of collective memory of the elitist and racist history of the persian and american bahai communities (or global bahai culture in general – if such a thing exists) is irrelevant to any understanding of how to improve bahai.

    bahais do the same stuff eveyone else does. including recycling the old “god’s special people” archetype, absurd “infallibility” doctrines, etc., in order to cover up the “revelation scam”.

    bahais make the same mistakes as everyoe else, and can solve them if they stop being deluded by illusions about some future, grandiose system, and instead have faith in human intelligence and goodness in the “here and now”.

    your analogies about plants, shoots, watering, etc., are so devoid of real meaning that it is simply fabulous, in a twisted, weird way, that you persist in posting such pointless and futile stuff. it is high theatre of the absurd. delicious, in a perverse way, in its utterly pure exhaustion and complete vacuity.

    the sad reality is that the bahai system is completely broken and as can easily be predicted by the study of basic organizational theory, is going the opposite direction than is needed for any real, meaningful reform.

    instead of opening up and learning from people that are doing very real things to actually improve the world, it is closing down, becoming more insularized, inntolerant of dissent or nonconformism, and fascist.

    it is a perfect example of “false unity” that is resistant to truth (just before a phase of chaos, followed by taking skeletons out of the closet, and then after painful self-examination, fullfillment and healing – see Scott Peck).

    the “little pigs” at the bottom of the bahai system are at first upheld as the ultimate (but unspecified) solution, then later will be blamed for all failure by the “big pigs” at the top.

    you are filling the role of the first part (proposing that the little people be upheld), stating grand, meaningless abstractions as their reward for conforming. later, the “destoyers” at the top will step in and harangue those very little people for failing to fullfil the grand, meaningless abstractions (that they never actually understood, and could never make sense of).

    what is consistent in the above scenario is that the failed bureaucracy reinvents itself, and continues on to launch another cycle of emotional uplift and then destruction, leaving emotional wreckage and debris in its wake.

    such a process is the essence of evil, the essence of injustice and the essence of inhumanity.

    it is the essence of ungodliness and error.

    which just reinforces the fact of scriptural/philosophial contradictions in the religion being piled up with even more contradictions in the thoughts and behavior of the organization and conformist followers.

    by stating that bahai should igore its own internal history of racism and injustice, you are dooming it to repeat that very history.

    unfortunately you have provided yet more proof, on top of a very large pile that I’ve seen accumulate in 30+ years of observation, that the apologists that volunteer to perpetuate bahai myths do not actually care about real people’s problems, concerns or issues.

    it is a religion that has become profoundly dehumanizing at almost all levels.

    the world is full of new, exciting developments in many spiritual and intellectual areas. people are putting “real money” on creating “spiritual businesses”. such new developments rarely show up in bahai, and when they do, they frequently become just more fodder for the old, bad historical cycle of false hope and bureaucratic reinvention that is doomed to be repeated until people understand it for what it is, and demand “something better”.

    you personally could start making a positive contribution to the world right now by overcoming your denial.

    it would be a very necessary and very important step.

    the question is: are you honest enough and brave enough to do it?

    I have seen “loyal” bahais spend their entire lives fighting against ignorance, corruption, abuses of power, nepotism, dishonesty, injustice and maliciousness within the bahai system. One outstanding example was Dr. John Cornell – may his blessed soul forever dwell in the warm embrace of celestial love and the abode of of transcendent light.

    He and his family took on the NSA and other institutional sources of ignorance, arrogance (and other forms of distain for basic human decency), and stood firm in the face of unending hostility from bahai leadership elites and their parrot-like apologists for decades (since at least the 1950s).

    Dr. Cornell used to openly discuss one of his pet peeves, which was the vast error of many bahais in thinking that “assemblies are always right”.

    That was Dr. Cornell’s way of understanding that mainstream bahai culture worships “system” and “bureaucracy”, and not “good, truth and beauty” (or basic human decency).

    Bahais like John Cornell epitomise the struggle for social justice and an ever advancing civilization.

    It is quite apparent that Dr. Cornell’s outstanding example of a “true bahai life of service” (and very real, concrete “solutions” that actually made a difference to specific people) will never be remembered by any Ruhi class or Institute as long as people do what you are doing, and think what you are thinking, which is to white-wash history and forget what makes life truly meaningful.

    bye!
    ep

    [quote comment="54369"]Eric wrote:

    It is very curious to me how little recognition to historical injustices is given in bahai.

    I agree Eric; the Baha’i Faith insists on what should be done, rather than insiting on the innumerous mistakes being done. Entirely different from the current intellectual approach where we make a diagnosis, accuse the culprits, and eventually suggest their punishment, without suggesting a viable soulution.

    This is a huge jump: the Divine Physician making the diagnosis and prescribing, instead of us trying to make a diagnoss, with no remedy to suggest.

    We can go around the garden and diagnose all the mishaps, when the gardener is telling us to ignore the dying plants, because it is time to dig a well and provide means for canalising the water instead of proping up the poor plants.

    BTW, here is an interesting site with a great video of the congressman Kirk’s strong defense on Bahai’s of Iran.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwaglgNjYgs

    warmest

    Farhan[/quote]
    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]Craig,

    You’ve obviously not hung out with the right type of Persians. I suggest you associate with more intellectual, non-Bahai Persians. They exist, in great numbers. You just won’t find too many of them among Bahais.

    …if anyone wants to rip on my Welsh pubic hair. Me. Tom Jones. Richard Burton.[/quote]

  • ep

    RE: “El Plan Infinito” – BUREAUCRATIC REINVENTION AND THE MASTERFUL CLOWNS OF SPIN AND DECEPTION

    Farhan,

    (As you may know, the great writer Isabell Allende satirized meaningless bahai rhetoric and vacuous bahai abstractions in “El Plan Infinito”.)

    You are in full-tilt spin mode! Awesome. You take loyalist evasion and “pivoting” on an issue to new, hilarious heights of absurdity. There could be no better entertainment. BRAVISIMO!!! :)

    The beginning to the solution to bahai racism is to recognise its origins, and to stop the denial. I saw a group of 25 persian bahai youth get up at a large conference about 7 or 8 years ago (San Diego) and scream at their parents (in front of 800 people) about the utter hypocrisy of paying “lip service” to the “unity of mankind” while acting in a totally racist/classist manner in their “real world” interactions with other people. The youth said that they can understand their grandparents being too backward to change, but not their parents, most of whom came to the USA when fairly young, and should have been able to unlearn racist, classist, and elitist attitudes.

    Shotly after, a persian friend of mine told me how an old bahai woman from Fiji, whose family originally were Indian muslims, was subject to horrible racist attitudes from the persians in their community. The Fijian woman made the horrible mistake of suggesting that the assembly “actually listen” to what non-persians in the community had to say. As you probably know, muslims in Fiji are subject to considerable discrimination as a “minority”. However, instead of making a basic adjustment to a person from an “oppressed” background, the persians went on the attack. any persians that dared to support the woman’s case were accused of “disloyalty” to the other persians. several americans realized that the pitiful rhetoric about the “oneness of mankind” was completely empty.

    They knew that they had been lied to by “bahai teachers”. Sometimes is is “just that simple”.

    Evolution and democracy are the solution to such problems, not an absurd, backward bahai system of dysfunctional bureaucratic reinvention that erases any memory of past errors and heaps (or should I say “sprinkles”) distain on any call for reform or improvement.

    You are just trying to “save face” (somehow, presumably out of desperation), for the collective bahai system, which is failed. The world has no time to wait for such silliness or more empty, grand abstractions. People want justice and equality, and have no patience for failed ideas or beliefs that get recycled over and over and over no matter how many times they are proven to not work.

    I find it incredible that you seem to be proposing that a complete lack of collective memory of the elitist and racist history of the persian and american bahai communities (or global bahai culture in general – if such a thing exists) is irrelevant to any understanding of how to improve bahai.

    bahais do the same stuff eveyone else does. including recycling the old “god’s special people” archetype, absurd “infallibility” doctrines, etc., in order to cover up the “revelation scam”.

    bahais make the same mistakes as everyoe else, and can solve them if they stop being deluded by illusions about some future, grandiose system, and instead have faith in human intelligence and goodness in the “here and now”.

    your analogies about plants, shoots, watering, etc., are so devoid of real meaning that it is simply fabulous, in a twisted, weird way, that you persist in posting such pointless and futile stuff. it is high theatre of the absurd. delicious, in a perverse way, in its utterly pure exhaustion and complete vacuity.

    the sad reality is that the bahai system is completely broken and as can easily be predicted by the study of basic organizational theory, is going the opposite direction than is needed for any real, meaningful reform.

    instead of opening up and learning from people that are doing very real things to actually improve the world, it is closing down, becoming more insularized, inntolerant of dissent or nonconformism, and fascist.

    it is a perfect example of “false unity” that is resistant to truth (just before a phase of chaos, followed by taking skeletons out of the closet, and then after painful self-examination, fullfillment and healing – see Scott Peck).

    the “little pigs” at the bottom of the bahai system are at first upheld as the ultimate (but unspecified) solution, then later will be blamed for all failure by the “big pigs” at the top.

    you are filling the role of the first part (proposing that the little people be upheld), stating grand, meaningless abstractions as their reward for conforming. later, the “destoyers” at the top will step in and harangue those very little people for failing to fullfil the grand, meaningless abstractions (that they never actually understood, and could never make sense of).

    what is consistent in the above scenario is that the failed bureaucracy reinvents itself, and continues on to launch another cycle of emotional uplift and then destruction, leaving emotional wreckage and debris in its wake.

    such a process is the essence of evil, the essence of injustice and the essence of inhumanity.

    it is the essence of ungodliness and error.

    which just reinforces the fact of scriptural/philosophial contradictions in the religion being piled up with even more contradictions in the thoughts and behavior of the organization and conformist followers.

    by stating that bahai should igore its own internal history of racism and injustice, you are dooming it to repeat that very history.

    unfortunately you have provided yet more proof, on top of a very large pile that I’ve seen accumulate in 30+ years of observation, that the apologists that volunteer to perpetuate bahai myths do not actually care about real people’s problems, concerns or issues.

    it is a religion that has become profoundly dehumanizing at almost all levels.

    the world is full of new, exciting developments in many spiritual and intellectual areas. people are putting “real money” on creating “spiritual businesses”. such new developments rarely show up in bahai, and when they do, they frequently become just more fodder for the old, bad historical cycle of false hope and bureaucratic reinvention that is doomed to be repeated until people understand it for what it is, and demand “something better”.

    you personally could start making a positive contribution to the world right now by overcoming your denial.

    it would be a very necessary and very important step.

    the question is: are you honest enough and brave enough to do it?

    I have seen “loyal” bahais spend their entire lives fighting against ignorance, corruption, abuses of power, nepotism, dishonesty, injustice and maliciousness within the bahai system. One outstanding example was Dr. John Cornell – may his blessed soul forever dwell in the warm embrace of celestial love and the abode of of transcendent light.

    He and his family took on the NSA and other institutional sources of ignorance, arrogance (and other forms of distain for basic human decency), and stood firm in the face of unending hostility from bahai leadership elites and their parrot-like apologists for decades (since at least the 1950s).

    Dr. Cornell used to openly discuss one of his pet peeves, which was the vast error of many bahais in thinking that “assemblies are always right”.

    That was Dr. Cornell’s way of understanding that mainstream bahai culture worships “system” and “bureaucracy”, and not “good, truth and beauty” (or basic human decency).

    Bahais like John Cornell epitomise the struggle for social justice and an ever advancing civilization.

    It is quite apparent that Dr. Cornell’s outstanding example of a “true bahai life of service” (and very real, concrete “solutions” that actually made a difference to specific people) will never be remembered by any Ruhi class or Institute as long as people do what you are doing, and think what you are thinking, which is to white-wash history and forget what makes life truly meaningful.

    bye!
    ep

    [quote comment="54369"]Eric wrote:

    It is very curious to me how little recognition to historical injustices is given in bahai.

    I agree Eric; the Baha’i Faith insists on what should be done, rather than insiting on the innumerous mistakes being done. Entirely different from the current intellectual approach where we make a diagnosis, accuse the culprits, and eventually suggest their punishment, without suggesting a viable soulution.

    This is a huge jump: the Divine Physician making the diagnosis and prescribing, instead of us trying to make a diagnoss, with no remedy to suggest.

    We can go around the garden and diagnose all the mishaps, when the gardener is telling us to ignore the dying plants, because it is time to dig a well and provide means for canalising the water instead of proping up the poor plants.

    BTW, here is an interesting site with a great video of the congressman Kirk’s strong defense on Bahai’s of Iran.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwaglgNjYgs

    warmest

    Farhan[/quote]
    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]Craig,

    You’ve obviously not hung out with the right type of Persians. I suggest you associate with more intellectual, non-Bahai Persians. They exist, in great numbers. You just won’t find too many of them among Bahais.

    …if anyone wants to rip on my Welsh pubic hair. Me. Tom Jones. Richard Burton.[/quote]

  • Werdna

    “The great appeal of modern conservatism, or other forms of authoritarianism, is that people don’t have to think for themselves. They can mentally “check out” of this world and place their worries in the hands of a commanding politician or a higher deity.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-besen/in-defense-of-liberalism_b_116941.html

  • Werdna

    “The great appeal of modern conservatism, or other forms of authoritarianism, is that people don’t have to think for themselves. They can mentally “check out” of this world and place their worries in the hands of a commanding politician or a higher deity.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-besen/in-defense-of-liberalism_b_116941.html

  • Concourse on Low

    Hey, Craig.

    I checked out some of Rodriguez’s Youtube videos, and he’s pretty good. But I don’t think anyone will ever hold a candle to the late (man, still feels weird saying that) George Carlin. Check out this gold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

    Yeah, Iran has many blondes and red heads, but that’s more a throwback to Iran’s Indo-European lineage. I know several Persians with blue eyes and very fair skin. Their phenotype confuses people. hehe :)

  • Concourse on Low

    Hey, Craig.

    I checked out some of Rodriguez’s Youtube videos, and he’s pretty good. But I don’t think anyone will ever hold a candle to the late (man, still feels weird saying that) George Carlin. Check out this gold: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

    Yeah, Iran has many blondes and red heads, but that’s more a throwback to Iran’s Indo-European lineage. I know several Persians with blue eyes and very fair skin. Their phenotype confuses people. hehe :)

  • ep

    Due to a glaring ideological bias, and like most goofy “progressives” (including Huffington), the author is very confused about history. In other words, the author is very subjective about how he praises objectivity. :)

    Progressives are just as guilty of being relentless conformists and thought police as are conservatives, in some cases, far worse. When I was a kid in the 60s, liberals were “open minded”. Not so much any more. The Left raised Political Correctness to new heights starting in the 80s, and a lot of stupid “progressives” and “liberals” marched along in lockstep.

    The author lacks a developmental model of cultural evolution, paradigms, or memes.

    “liberal vs. conservative” debates (culture wars) are a waste of time. They represent outmoded paradigm/memes on each side, not the leading edge of cultural evolution. They represent what integralists call “deficient forms” of paradigms. Typically the “deficient form” of a paradigm tries to hide its weaknesses and failures by demonizing the “other”, and taking on “all good” to itself. That is clearly NOT “objective” or “scientific”.

    THE ONLY REASON THAT “CONSERVATISM” IS POPULAR IN THE USA IS BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE FAILURES OF “PROGRESSIVISM/LIBERALISM”.

    (To a large extent, the same is true within bahai, although the whole story is far more convoluted.)

    The lunatic fringe of progressivism/liberalism (better known as the “PC Left”, attempted to take the culture off the edge of an abyss of meaningless and self-absorbsion (nihilism/narcissism) in the 70s/80s. Many people were correctly horrified, and turned to the only other major alternatives they could see at the time: neoconservatism, evangelical christianity, fundamentalism, etc.

    Some progressive/liberals themselves turned away from the horror and toward esoteric spirituality or populism, and a few of those realized that spirituality had to be reformulated to avoid outmoded, premodern metaphysics, superstition, and unscientific “new age” excessses, failed transpersonal psychology, and so forth. Thus, “integral thought” came about, built on a foundation laid by Sri Aurobindo, Jean Gebser, Clare Graves, and other integral pioneers and “futurists”.

    Progressivism and conservatism (“left and right”) each have good and bad aspects.

    Too much progressivism, and moral structure collapses. Liberals of the “warm/fuzzy” postmodern/progressive sort tend to be hapless and helpless in the face of gang or tribal violence, or brutal imperialism, dictators, authoritarians, etc.

    What passes for progressivism/liberalism nowdays is actually a lot of postodernism. The author mixes up postmodernism with progressivism and the values of “classic liberalism”.

    Most of what he is extoling is libertarianism (classic liberalism), not progressivism. Libertarian thought is what in the USA, would be considered “classic liberalism” in europe (free market, etc.). von Hayek and all those guys.

    In consciousnes studies, or integral theory, classic liberalism is the paradigm of “modernity”. “libertarian” thought originated amongst the Radical Whigs, such as John Locke, who were early modernists (1640s, English Civil war).

    Modernity developed in response to feudalism and medieval culture, which represented conformism, ecclesiastic and aristocratic rule, mercantile economics (economic management by royal bureacuracy).

    What the modernists/libertarians wanted was property rights, open participation in governance, free thought, tolerance of religious dissent in protest of the corruption of high church, objective science, industrial capitalism, etc.

    The Radical Whigs (and other classic liberals/modernists) proposed “Natural Law” as a replacement for the “Divine Right of Kings”.

    A classic statment of Natural Law is:

    | The opening of the Declaration of Independence written by Thomas
    | Jefferson in 1776, states as follows:
    |
    | �We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
    | equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
    | unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the
    | Pursuit of Happiness. ”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal

    The utter genius of Natural Law is that it replaced an image of God as “Rigid Conformism and Slavery” with one of God as “Freedom and Liberty”.

    Like Darwinian Evolution, Natural Law is one of the strongest refutation of the Revelation Scam (including bahai “Progressive Revelation”) that exists.

    (No so called “Prophet” produced either Evolutionary Theory or Natural Law.)

    (note: the “Pursuit of Happiness” meant liberty to engage in free trade, and accumulate property via the “protestant work ethic”, where such property was protected by law, could not be unfairly taxed or seized by the central state police or other forms of unrepresentative government. It had nothing to do with current forms of “emotional happiness”. People were “Happy” when they were no longer economically enslaved by an oppressive system of royal bureaucracy, articifial social privilege, elite religion, and mercantile economics.)

    Almost all premodern, and medieval/feudal societies, had economic systems that were built on rigid hirearchy and some form or another of slavery (serfdom, peasantry, etc.). Religion was a tool to control the slaves and uneducated masses (when it failed, unflinchingly brutal police or military force was used instead). It was rare that the elites allowed the lower classes to rise or to challenge prevailing ideas.

    Capitalism led to the rise of powerful bourgeois classes, whose “materialistic” self-interests, frequently crass and vulgar, shocked and horrified the old, refined classes of aristocracy, ecclesiastics and their bureaucrats and those bohemian arteests and intellectuals that lived on patronage (favors from the aristocrats).

    Thus, romanticism was born as a reaction to the “materialism” of modernity, classic liberalism and industrial capitalism. Romanticism eventually spawned two evil cousins: fascism and marxism.

    To be clear: the Left is not “liberal” in its origins. The Left is descended from the old, marginalized intellectual and bohemian elites who were shoved out of the way by the bourgeoisie.

    A good article on how “conservatives” see the origins of Leftism is by David Brooks:

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/102gwtnf.asp

    Among the Bourgeoisophobes
    Why the Europeans and Arabs, each in their own way, hate America and Israel.
    by David Brooks
    04/15/2002, Volume 007, Issue 30

    AROUND 1830, a group of French artists and intellectuals looked around and noticed that people who were their spiritual inferiors were running the world. Suddenly a large crowd of merchants, managers, and traders were making lots of money, living in the big houses, and holding the key posts. They had none of the high style of the aristocracy, or even the earthy integrity of the peasants. Instead, they were gross. They were vulgar materialists, shallow conformists, and self-absorbed philistines, who half the time failed even to acknowledge their moral and spiritual inferiority to the artists and intellectuals. What’s more, it was their very mediocrity that accounted for their success. Through some screw-up in the great scheme of the universe, their narrow-minded greed had brought them vast wealth, unstoppable power, and growing social prestige.

    Naturally, the artists and intellectuals were outraged. Hatred of the bourgeoisie became the official emotion of the French intelligentsia. Stendhal said traders and merchants made him want to “weep and vomit at the same time.” Flaubert thought they were “plodding and avaricious.” Hatred of the bourgeoisie, he wrote, “is the beginning of all virtue.” He signed his letters “Bourgeoisophobus” to show how much he despised “stupid grocers and their ilk.”

    Of all the great creeds of the 19th century, pretty much the only one still thriving is this one, bourgeoisophobia. Marxism is dead. Freudianism is dead. Social Darwinism is dead, along with all those theories about racial purity that grew up around it. But the emotions and reactions that Flaubert, Stendhal, and all the others articulated in the 1830s are still with us, bigger than ever. In fact, bourgeoisophobia, which has flowered variously and spread to places as diverse as Baghdad, Ramallah, and Beijing, is the major reactionary creed of our age.

    This is because today, in much of the world’s eyes, two peoples–the Americans and the Jews–have emerged as the great exemplars of undeserved success. Americans and Israelis, in this view, are the money-mad molochs of the earth, the vulgarizers of morals, corrupters of culture, and proselytizers of idolatrous values. These two nations, it is said, practice conquest capitalism, overrunning poorer nations and exploiting weaker neighbors in their endless desire for more and more. These two peoples, the Americans and the Jews, in the view of the bourgeoisophobes, thrive precisely because they are spiritually stunted. It is their obliviousness to the holy things in life, their feverish energy, their injustice, their shallow pursuit of power and gain, that allow them to build fortunes, construct weapons, and play the role of hyperpower.

    And so just as the French intellectuals of the 1830s rose up to despise the traders and bankers, certain people today rise up to shock, humiliate, and dream of destroying America and Israel. Today’s bourgeoisophobes burn with the same sense of unjust inferiority. They experience the same humiliation because there is nothing they can do to thwart the growing might of their enemies. They rage and rage. Only today’s bourgeoisophobes are not just artists and intellectuals. They are as likely to be terrorists and suicide bombers. They teach in madrassas, where they are careful not to instruct their students in the sort of practical knowledge that dominates bourgeois schools. They are Muslim clerics who incite hatred and violence. They are erudite Europeans who burn with humiliation because they know, deep down, that both America and Israel possess a vitality and heroism that their nations once had but no longer do.

    —end excerpts—

    Of course Brooks deconstructs a great deal of the philosophical foundations that bahai ideas about “spirituality” and “univeralism” rest upon.

    Bye!
    ep

    [quote comment="54402"]“The great appeal of modern conservatism, or other forms of authoritarianism, is that people don’t have to think for themselves. They can mentally “check out” of this world and place their worries in the hands of a commanding politician or a higher deity.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-besen/in-defense-of-liberalism_b_116941.html/quote
    [

  • ep

    Due to a glaring ideological bias, and like most goofy “progressives” (including Huffington), the author is very confused about history. In other words, the author is very subjective about how he praises objectivity. :)

    Progressives are just as guilty of being relentless conformists and thought police as are conservatives, in some cases, far worse. When I was a kid in the 60s, liberals were “open minded”. Not so much any more. The Left raised Political Correctness to new heights starting in the 80s, and a lot of stupid “progressives” and “liberals” marched along in lockstep.

    The author lacks a developmental model of cultural evolution, paradigms, or memes.

    “liberal vs. conservative” debates (culture wars) are a waste of time. They represent outmoded paradigm/memes on each side, not the leading edge of cultural evolution. They represent what integralists call “deficient forms” of paradigms. Typically the “deficient form” of a paradigm tries to hide its weaknesses and failures by demonizing the “other”, and taking on “all good” to itself. That is clearly NOT “objective” or “scientific”.

    THE ONLY REASON THAT “CONSERVATISM” IS POPULAR IN THE USA IS BECAUSE OF THE MASSIVE FAILURES OF “PROGRESSIVISM/LIBERALISM”.

    (To a large extent, the same is true within bahai, although the whole story is far more convoluted.)

    The lunatic fringe of progressivism/liberalism (better known as the “PC Left”, attempted to take the culture off the edge of an abyss of meaningless and self-absorbsion (nihilism/narcissism) in the 70s/80s. Many people were correctly horrified, and turned to the only other major alternatives they could see at the time: neoconservatism, evangelical christianity, fundamentalism, etc.

    Some progressive/liberals themselves turned away from the horror and toward esoteric spirituality or populism, and a few of those realized that spirituality had to be reformulated to avoid outmoded, premodern metaphysics, superstition, and unscientific “new age” excessses, failed transpersonal psychology, and so forth. Thus, “integral thought” came about, built on a foundation laid by Sri Aurobindo, Jean Gebser, Clare Graves, and other integral pioneers and “futurists”.

    Progressivism and conservatism (“left and right”) each have good and bad aspects.

    Too much progressivism, and moral structure collapses. Liberals of the “warm/fuzzy” postmodern/progressive sort tend to be hapless and helpless in the face of gang or tribal violence, or brutal imperialism, dictators, authoritarians, etc.

    What passes for progressivism/liberalism nowdays is actually a lot of postodernism. The author mixes up postmodernism with progressivism and the values of “classic liberalism”.

    Most of what he is extoling is libertarianism (classic liberalism), not progressivism. Libertarian thought is what in the USA, would be considered “classic liberalism” in europe (free market, etc.). von Hayek and all those guys.

    In consciousnes studies, or integral theory, classic liberalism is the paradigm of “modernity”. “libertarian” thought originated amongst the Radical Whigs, such as John Locke, who were early modernists (1640s, English Civil war).

    Modernity developed in response to feudalism and medieval culture, which represented conformism, ecclesiastic and aristocratic rule, mercantile economics (economic management by royal bureacuracy).

    What the modernists/libertarians wanted was property rights, open participation in governance, free thought, tolerance of religious dissent in protest of the corruption of high church, objective science, industrial capitalism, etc.

    The Radical Whigs (and other classic liberals/modernists) proposed “Natural Law” as a replacement for the “Divine Right of Kings”.

    A classic statment of Natural Law is:

    | The opening of the Declaration of Independence written by Thomas
    | Jefferson in 1776, states as follows:
    |
    | �We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
    | equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
    | unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the
    | Pursuit of Happiness. ”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal

    The utter genius of Natural Law is that it replaced an image of God as “Rigid Conformism and Slavery” with one of God as “Freedom and Liberty”.

    Like Darwinian Evolution, Natural Law is one of the strongest refutation of the Revelation Scam (including bahai “Progressive Revelation”) that exists.

    (No so called “Prophet” produced either Evolutionary Theory or Natural Law.)

    (note: the “Pursuit of Happiness” meant liberty to engage in free trade, and accumulate property via the “protestant work ethic”, where such property was protected by law, could not be unfairly taxed or seized by the central state police or other forms of unrepresentative government. It had nothing to do with current forms of “emotional happiness”. People were “Happy” when they were no longer economically enslaved by an oppressive system of royal bureaucracy, articifial social privilege, elite religion, and mercantile economics.)

    Almost all premodern, and medieval/feudal societies, had economic systems that were built on rigid hirearchy and some form or another of slavery (serfdom, peasantry, etc.). Religion was a tool to control the slaves and uneducated masses (when it failed, unflinchingly brutal police or military force was used instead). It was rare that the elites allowed the lower classes to rise or to challenge prevailing ideas.

    Capitalism led to the rise of powerful bourgeois classes, whose “materialistic” self-interests, frequently crass and vulgar, shocked and horrified the old, refined classes of aristocracy, ecclesiastics and their bureaucrats and those bohemian arteests and intellectuals that lived on patronage (favors from the aristocrats).

    Thus, romanticism was born as a reaction to the “materialism” of modernity, classic liberalism and industrial capitalism. Romanticism eventually spawned two evil cousins: fascism and marxism.

    To be clear: the Left is not “liberal” in its origins. The Left is descended from the old, marginalized intellectual and bohemian elites who were shoved out of the way by the bourgeoisie.

    A good article on how “conservatives” see the origins of Leftism is by David Brooks:

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/102gwtnf.asp

    Among the Bourgeoisophobes
    Why the Europeans and Arabs, each in their own way, hate America and Israel.
    by David Brooks
    04/15/2002, Volume 007, Issue 30

    AROUND 1830, a group of French artists and intellectuals looked around and noticed that people who were their spiritual inferiors were running the world. Suddenly a large crowd of merchants, managers, and traders were making lots of money, living in the big houses, and holding the key posts. They had none of the high style of the aristocracy, or even the earthy integrity of the peasants. Instead, they were gross. They were vulgar materialists, shallow conformists, and self-absorbed philistines, who half the time failed even to acknowledge their moral and spiritual inferiority to the artists and intellectuals. What’s more, it was their very mediocrity that accounted for their success. Through some screw-up in the great scheme of the universe, their narrow-minded greed had brought them vast wealth, unstoppable power, and growing social prestige.

    Naturally, the artists and intellectuals were outraged. Hatred of the bourgeoisie became the official emotion of the French intelligentsia. Stendhal said traders and merchants made him want to “weep and vomit at the same time.” Flaubert thought they were “plodding and avaricious.” Hatred of the bourgeoisie, he wrote, “is the beginning of all virtue.” He signed his letters “Bourgeoisophobus” to show how much he despised “stupid grocers and their ilk.”

    Of all the great creeds of the 19th century, pretty much the only one still thriving is this one, bourgeoisophobia. Marxism is dead. Freudianism is dead. Social Darwinism is dead, along with all those theories about racial purity that grew up around it. But the emotions and reactions that Flaubert, Stendhal, and all the others articulated in the 1830s are still with us, bigger than ever. In fact, bourgeoisophobia, which has flowered variously and spread to places as diverse as Baghdad, Ramallah, and Beijing, is the major reactionary creed of our age.

    This is because today, in much of the world’s eyes, two peoples–the Americans and the Jews–have emerged as the great exemplars of undeserved success. Americans and Israelis, in this view, are the money-mad molochs of the earth, the vulgarizers of morals, corrupters of culture, and proselytizers of idolatrous values. These two nations, it is said, practice conquest capitalism, overrunning poorer nations and exploiting weaker neighbors in their endless desire for more and more. These two peoples, the Americans and the Jews, in the view of the bourgeoisophobes, thrive precisely because they are spiritually stunted. It is their obliviousness to the holy things in life, their feverish energy, their injustice, their shallow pursuit of power and gain, that allow them to build fortunes, construct weapons, and play the role of hyperpower.

    And so just as the French intellectuals of the 1830s rose up to despise the traders and bankers, certain people today rise up to shock, humiliate, and dream of destroying America and Israel. Today’s bourgeoisophobes burn with the same sense of unjust inferiority. They experience the same humiliation because there is nothing they can do to thwart the growing might of their enemies. They rage and rage. Only today’s bourgeoisophobes are not just artists and intellectuals. They are as likely to be terrorists and suicide bombers. They teach in madrassas, where they are careful not to instruct their students in the sort of practical knowledge that dominates bourgeois schools. They are Muslim clerics who incite hatred and violence. They are erudite Europeans who burn with humiliation because they know, deep down, that both America and Israel possess a vitality and heroism that their nations once had but no longer do.

    —end excerpts—

    Of course Brooks deconstructs a great deal of the philosophical foundations that bahai ideas about “spirituality” and “univeralism” rest upon.

    Bye!
    ep

    [quote comment="54402"]“The great appeal of modern conservatism, or other forms of authoritarianism, is that people don’t have to think for themselves. They can mentally “check out” of this world and place their worries in the hands of a commanding politician or a higher deity.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-besen/in-defense-of-liberalism_b_116941.html/quote
    [

  • ep

    re: Masud – Bahai *has* adapted to culture, unfortunately very badly

    Masud,

    For some weird reason the bahairants.com blog software sent me an email containing the following post of yours today (8/7/08) even though your reponse was posted a while ago (while I was on vacation).

    Bahai not only should, but has, adapted to culture. Unfortunately it has adapted very badly, absorbing every tendency of dysfunctional social engineering and failed bureaucracy available. It could adapt in a “good” way that is consistent with making a contribution to an “ever advancing civilization”, but that appears to be very unlikely given the present mindset of inept, dysfunctional bureaucracy, conformism, intolerance of dissent/ nonconformance/criticism.

    I’m very honest in stating exactly what I believe, and why. Revelation is a complete scam. Bahaullah is as much of a “Manifestation of God” as are most of the people in mental health hospitals.

    Have you ever wondered why the old testament has “Prophets” coming out of the woodwork, but later on, they really started to dry up and become scarce? What utter silliness.

    Love, peace, compassion, altruism (etc.) existed in human consciousness long before being appropriated by “univeralist” religions in their quests for political, economic and miltary empire.

    Frankly, you sound like a typical bullshit artist, AKA a typical condescending/arrogant “bahai apologist” (outwardly fair, inwardly foul). You might like to be in the “missionary position”, but I have no interest in being reconverted by someone who so obviously wants to engage in cultural imperialism.

    In other words, you sound like a fairly smart person that believes in some really stupid crap.

    I have no interest in joining you in anything given the above.

    Here is what your religion teaches you to believe in, I suggest that you take it to heart instead of nit picking what other people say in order to evade/distort criticisms:

    http://www.defenseoffaith.net/

    Shoghi Effendi on fairmindedness

    “It must be demonstrated in the impartiality of every defender of
    the Faith against its enemies, in his fair-mindedness in recognizing
    any merits that enemy may possess, and in his honesty in discharging
    any obligations he may have towards him.” — Shoghi Effendi, The
    Advent of Divine Justice, p. 26

    so, given the above, feel free to respond in a way consistent with basic human decency and honesty.

    [quote comment="54131"]ep,

    I hate to have to say this, but you give me the awful impression of someone who hasn’t read any of the arguments against your position.
    . . .

    “and is out of touch with the trajectory of the leading edge of cultural evolution.”

    Again, I think that culture should adapt to the Baha’i Faith, not vice-versa. I think this misconception is a sort of leitmotif in some people’s mindset, (and definitely in your last post) and is sometimes even manifested subconsciously, as I think is the case in the phrase cited above.
    . . .

    “This documented sorry record of organizational entrenched dysfunctional mental illness may yet bear much fruit in future very useful psychological theories of organizational dysfunction”

    because, as of yet, this doesn’t characterize the Baha’i Faith. That mistakes have been made, I cannot and will not deny, but as a general characterization of the Baha’i Faith, with all due respect, I think you’re way off in your reasoning to think that it falls into this category. Who knows? Maybe we will fall into it in the future. You may even be an augur for this event. If that is the case, thank you; your admonitions have been taken into consideration. But until then, they are still mere prognostications. We can discuss this in a thousand years if you wish.

    In the meanwhile, I’ll be doing my best to live a Baha’i life, lead by example, and propagate the message of peace, love, and unity. And I would love for all of you to join me.

    I’ve enjoyed this discussion. All the best to all of you.
    Smile, breathe, and pray,

    Masud[/quote]

  • ep

    re: Masud – Bahai *has* adapted to culture, unfortunately very badly

    Masud,

    For some weird reason the bahairants.com blog software sent me an email containing the following post of yours today (8/7/08) even though your reponse was posted a while ago (while I was on vacation).

    Bahai not only should, but has, adapted to culture. Unfortunately it has adapted very badly, absorbing every tendency of dysfunctional social engineering and failed bureaucracy available. It could adapt in a “good” way that is consistent with making a contribution to an “ever advancing civilization”, but that appears to be very unlikely given the present mindset of inept, dysfunctional bureaucracy, conformism, intolerance of dissent/ nonconformance/criticism.

    I’m very honest in stating exactly what I believe, and why. Revelation is a complete scam. Bahaullah is as much of a “Manifestation of God” as are most of the people in mental health hospitals.

    Have you ever wondered why the old testament has “Prophets” coming out of the woodwork, but later on, they really started to dry up and become scarce? What utter silliness.

    Love, peace, compassion, altruism (etc.) existed in human consciousness long before being appropriated by “univeralist” religions in their quests for political, economic and miltary empire.

    Frankly, you sound like a typical bullshit artist, AKA a typical condescending/arrogant “bahai apologist” (outwardly fair, inwardly foul). You might like to be in the “missionary position”, but I have no interest in being reconverted by someone who so obviously wants to engage in cultural imperialism.

    In other words, you sound like a fairly smart person that believes in some really stupid crap.

    I have no interest in joining you in anything given the above.

    Here is what your religion teaches you to believe in, I suggest that you take it to heart instead of nit picking what other people say in order to evade/distort criticisms:

    http://www.defenseoffaith.net/

    Shoghi Effendi on fairmindedness

    “It must be demonstrated in the impartiality of every defender of
    the Faith against its enemies, in his fair-mindedness in recognizing
    any merits that enemy may possess, and in his honesty in discharging
    any obligations he may have towards him.” — Shoghi Effendi, The
    Advent of Divine Justice, p. 26

    so, given the above, feel free to respond in a way consistent with basic human decency and honesty.

    [quote comment="54131"]ep,

    I hate to have to say this, but you give me the awful impression of someone who hasn’t read any of the arguments against your position.
    . . .

    “and is out of touch with the trajectory of the leading edge of cultural evolution.”

    Again, I think that culture should adapt to the Baha’i Faith, not vice-versa. I think this misconception is a sort of leitmotif in some people’s mindset, (and definitely in your last post) and is sometimes even manifested subconsciously, as I think is the case in the phrase cited above.
    . . .

    “This documented sorry record of organizational entrenched dysfunctional mental illness may yet bear much fruit in future very useful psychological theories of organizational dysfunction”

    because, as of yet, this doesn’t characterize the Baha’i Faith. That mistakes have been made, I cannot and will not deny, but as a general characterization of the Baha’i Faith, with all due respect, I think you’re way off in your reasoning to think that it falls into this category. Who knows? Maybe we will fall into it in the future. You may even be an augur for this event. If that is the case, thank you; your admonitions have been taken into consideration. But until then, they are still mere prognostications. We can discuss this in a thousand years if you wish.

    In the meanwhile, I’ll be doing my best to live a Baha’i life, lead by example, and propagate the message of peace, love, and unity. And I would love for all of you to join me.

    I’ve enjoyed this discussion. All the best to all of you.
    Smile, breathe, and pray,

    Masud[/quote]

  • farhan

    Eric,

    I fully agree with the point brought up by Masud, with which you disagree:

    “Again, I think that culture should adapt to the Baha’i Faith, not vice-versa.”

    This is the crux of all religious belief: the concept of the sacred, Mother Nature, the Great architect, the Revelation of God, etc, provides a nucleus to which people adhere with heart and soul, and around which a civilisation can be weaved. These are the warp and the woof of civilisation, if you prefer. The Swiss have an expression: put the church in the middle of the village”

    Jaques Monod, the French Nobel prize wrote a treatise in teh 1970s called “Le Hazard et la Necessit?©”, a cold and arid plea for objectivity, which is translated into English, in which he considers science as providing it’s own source of objective ethics, BUT he goes on to explain that it is the concept of the sacred that can attract people to these ethical laws to the point that they are ready to sacrifice their lives for it.

    Whatever the mistakes Baha’is like us might make, however pessimistic we might be, the Faith of God will march on in an exponential manner as it has done for the last century and a half. Not with the aim of success for itself, but with the aim of reforming human society. As the French say, we should not only look at the half empty part of the bottle, but also at the half full part. Otherwise we will suffer from depression.

    Shoots, branches and flowers are blooming everywhere. We should lift our eyes from the mire and dirt of the compost to look at the budding community.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Eric,

    I fully agree with the point brought up by Masud, with which you disagree:

    “Again, I think that culture should adapt to the Baha’i Faith, not vice-versa.”

    This is the crux of all religious belief: the concept of the sacred, Mother Nature, the Great architect, the Revelation of God, etc, provides a nucleus to which people adhere with heart and soul, and around which a civilisation can be weaved. These are the warp and the woof of civilisation, if you prefer. The Swiss have an expression: put the church in the middle of the village”

    Jaques Monod, the French Nobel prize wrote a treatise in teh 1970s called “Le Hazard et la Necessit?©”, a cold and arid plea for objectivity, which is translated into English, in which he considers science as providing it’s own source of objective ethics, BUT he goes on to explain that it is the concept of the sacred that can attract people to these ethical laws to the point that they are ready to sacrifice their lives for it.

    Whatever the mistakes Baha’is like us might make, however pessimistic we might be, the Faith of God will march on in an exponential manner as it has done for the last century and a half. Not with the aim of success for itself, but with the aim of reforming human society. As the French say, we should not only look at the half empty part of the bottle, but also at the half full part. Otherwise we will suffer from depression.

    Shoots, branches and flowers are blooming everywhere. We should lift our eyes from the mire and dirt of the compost to look at the budding community.

  • ep

    re: “If religion becomes a cause of enmity and hatred … abolition of religion is preferable”

    “Among the teachings of Bah??’u’ll??h is His declaration that religion must be the cause of love and fellowship, must be the source of unity in the hearts of men. If religion becomes a cause of enmity and hatred, it is evident that the abolition of religion is preferable to its promulgation; for religion is a remedy for human ills. If a remedy should be productive of disease, it is certainly advisable to abandon it. ”

    Farhan,

    Bahai does not put the church in the middle of the village. Baha’is that have tried to move toward a “Mashriq” form of bahai culture (mysticism/service) are viciously attacked by bureaucratic apparatchiks and fundamentalists. The spirits of these blessed seekers of spiritually-centric bahai life are broken, and their hope for a life of sacred harmony ground under the boot of viciously fascist bahai conformism to worship of “organization”.

    Please note that german philosopher Jurgen Habermas, one of the most advanced thinkers on the planet, has as a central premise that institutions universally suffer a “crisis of legitimization” because of the prevailing conditions of culture. They become victim to their own public relations campaigns and attempts to manipulate public opinion via mass media.

    Baha’i has clearly absorbed exactly the problems that Habermas describes in its (BAD) “adaptation to culture”.

    In the midst of crisis, Baha’is naturally turn backward, as do all reactionary belief systems that have to vision of a “legitimate” future paradigm.

    If bahai believed in KOSMIC EVOLUTION, instead of backward “revelation”, a way forward, an escape from metaphysical quicksand, would be possible.

    But, alas, the bahai leadership elites, and their dunce followers, are doomed to march off a cliff of error and waywardness, rejecting the very evolutionary characteristics that could assure a slim chance of survival.

    I fully believe that the “sacred” (transcendence, mysticism) is wired into the human brain, by evolution. Not by bogus Prophetic/Progressive Revelation. We are all made of Kosmic dust from the Big Bang, and can directly access transcendence as a populist community of voluntary reciprocity and mutal interest, not via some corrupt, backward quasi-priesthood that uses spirituality as a weapon of control, a tool for accumulating wealth, and a means of perpetuating dysfunctional “systems” that work against harmony, responsibility and self-sufficiency.

    Modernity (science, rationalism, democracy, industry, capitalism) is premised on the overthrow of the same corrupt forms of traditional authority that the founders of babai/bahai belief themselves fiercely denounced over and over and over.

    As Sen McGlinn and many others have said, the problem with modernity, in its state of “paradigm regression”, is that it attempts to “colonize lifeworld” (Habermas), thus it tries to impose a monolithic (“universal”) structure of consciousness on other paradigms. Postmodernism (pluralism, deconstruction) developed as a critique of the monolithic aspect of modernity. However, Sen does not state the further problem, which is that postmodernism itself has many nasty “paradigm regressive” forms of expression. Ken Wilber and other Integral thinkers have called those nasty forms of postmodernism the “mean green meme” (MGM). Once common version of the MGM is “political correctness” (thought policing).

    In reality, bahai HAS CLEARLY (AND BADLY) “adapted to culture” by absorbing the worst aspects of “monolithic colonization” by modernism “systems” and “thought policing” by postmodernism (not to mention pre-modern conformism and archaic rule by violence).

    The escape from the cycle of meaninglessness and backwardness is to peer into the evolutionary future of the human race, and see “something better”, which is holism, or trans-rational thought (an integration of transcendence and rationalism).

    The UHJ itself mentioned in a message to Dr. Susan Maneck that the “solution” to the “liberal vs. conservative” conflicts in bahai culture is to adaopt “Integrative Paradigms” benig developed by non-bahai scholars!!!

    *******************
    *** PLEASE NOTE ***
    *******************

    THE UHJ ITSELF HAS CLEARLY TOLD BAHAIS TO “ADAPT TO CULTURE”.

    Bahais are defying the very authority structure that they worship (by NOT “contributing to Integrative Paradigms”).

    As Craig says, the incompetence of bahai is so vast and unending as to stupify anyone that attempts to fathom it.

    CLEARLY, you and Masud are backward, priest-like “Dunces” of the Highest Order and Magnitude Imaginable.

    Anyways, the version of mysticism/service that you have in mind (“church is the center of the village”) is forever enslaved to a failed model of social progress that is premised upon worship of organization (“systems”), not human decency or transcendence (much less “integrative paradigms”).

    It is, in theory, simple to detach yourself from such false ideas and beliefs. Take a few moments during your days of mindless “happiness” while tending and tinkling on sprouts and shoots (that some evil bahai administrator will subsequently pour spiritual herbicides on if it dares to not conform to the enforcers of CORRECT GROWTH), and meditate on such detachment.

    Think about how glorious a contribution to a positive future you will make by stopping such foolishness. Think about how much better and more enlightened the lives of multitudes will be if the sources of bahai error, mischief and exploitation, such as yourself and masud, just mind your own business for once.

    Clearly bahai is increasingly tending toward incompetence, fundamentalism, conformism, backwardness, stupidity, intolerance, dysfunctional bureacuracy, injustice, elitism, racism and cultural imperialism. All of which are consistent with “enmity and hatred”.

    I am increasingly stunned at how many otherwise (at least moderately) intelligent people, like you and masud, simply believe in stupid things.

    As I’ve seen people that originally had some intellectual integrity rise up within the bahai system over the last couple of decades, they learn to give up much of their integrity in order to conform and “get along”. This is the same thing seen everywhere else in the world, people become cynical, and give up hope that any major social change can happen, and look for ways to establish an “emotional comfort zone” – and/or collect a paycheck.

    Since everything you belive is premised opn giving up “real” hope, you are the one that is unhappy, you just chose to cover it up with lies in order to “save face”.

    Your complete refusal to admit that bahais have failed to address the long and absurd internal history of social injustices and racism, and your adamant and inexplicable refusal to think that anything CONCRETE could or should be done to recognise or change it, is sufficient to prove my point.

    This is because your beliefs are empty, and the void has to be filled with “something”, and that “something” is worship of organization. It is emptiness upon emptiness.

    Ultimately what you believe in is destined for collapse. Which is why the bahai bureaucracy that you worhip has to constantly reinvent itself by crushing the spirits of people that come to the religion for a sense of belonging, real hope and change.

    You should be deeply and profoundly ashamed to be an apologist for such a morally bankrupt, corrupt, wretched, failed, mindless and heartless belief system.

    The fact that you encourage people to be “happy” and march off a cliff like a herd of mindless lemmings simply reinforces the absurd futility of anyone thinking that the bahai leadership elites have any clue about how to reform the religion so that it makes sense to the rest of the world.

    Thus, bahai can not be considered “the cause of love and fellowship”, and, according to bahai scripture itself, should be abolished.

    Your “unity” is really “false unity”.

    It is lies and cowardice.

    Have a wnoderful weekend!
    ep

    [quote comment=""]Eric,

    I fully agree with the point brought up by Masud, with which you disagree:

    “Again, I think that culture should adapt to the Baha’i Faith, not vice-versa.”

    This is the crux of all religious belief: the concept of the sacred, Mother Nature, the Great architect, the Revelation of God, etc, provides a nucleus to which people adhere with heart and soul, and around which a civilisation can be weaved. These are the warp and the woof of civilisation, if you prefer. The Swiss have an expression: put the church in the middle of the village”

    Jaques Monod, the French Nobel prize wrote a treatise in teh 1970s called “Le Hazard et la Necessit?©”, a cold and arid plea for objectivity, which is translated into English, in which he considers science as providing it’s own source of objective ethics, BUT he goes on to explain that it is the concept of the sacred that can attract people to these ethical laws to the point that they are ready to sacrifice their lives for it.

    Whatever the mistakes Baha’is like us might make, however pessimistic we might be, the Faith of God will march on in an exponential manner as it has done for the last century and a half. Not with the aim of success for itself, but with the aim of reforming human society. As the French say, we should not only look at the half empty part of the bottle, but also at the half full part. Otherwise we will suffer from depression.

    Shoots, branches and flowers are blooming everywhere. We should lift our eyes from the mire and dirt of the compost to look at the budding community.[/quote]

  • ep

    re: “If religion becomes a cause of enmity and hatred … abolition of religion is preferable”

    “Among the teachings of Bah??’u’ll??h is His declaration that religion must be the cause of love and fellowship, must be the source of unity in the hearts of men. If religion becomes a cause of enmity and hatred, it is evident that the abolition of religion is preferable to its promulgation; for religion is a remedy for human ills. If a remedy should be productive of disease, it is certainly advisable to abandon it. ”

    Farhan,

    Bahai does not put the church in the middle of the village. Baha’is that have tried to move toward a “Mashriq” form of bahai culture (mysticism/service) are viciously attacked by bureaucratic apparatchiks and fundamentalists. The spirits of these blessed seekers of spiritually-centric bahai life are broken, and their hope for a life of sacred harmony ground under the boot of viciously fascist bahai conformism to worship of “organization”.

    Please note that german philosopher Jurgen Habermas, one of the most advanced thinkers on the planet, has as a central premise that institutions universally suffer a “crisis of legitimization” because of the prevailing conditions of culture. They become victim to their own public relations campaigns and attempts to manipulate public opinion via mass media.

    Baha’i has clearly absorbed exactly the problems that Habermas describes in its (BAD) “adaptation to culture”.

    In the midst of crisis, Baha’is naturally turn backward, as do all reactionary belief systems that have to vision of a “legitimate” future paradigm.

    If bahai believed in KOSMIC EVOLUTION, instead of backward “revelation”, a way forward, an escape from metaphysical quicksand, would be possible.

    But, alas, the bahai leadership elites, and their dunce followers, are doomed to march off a cliff of error and waywardness, rejecting the very evolutionary characteristics that could assure a slim chance of survival.

    I fully believe that the “sacred” (transcendence, mysticism) is wired into the human brain, by evolution. Not by bogus Prophetic/Progressive Revelation. We are all made of Kosmic dust from the Big Bang, and can directly access transcendence as a populist community of voluntary reciprocity and mutal interest, not via some corrupt, backward quasi-priesthood that uses spirituality as a weapon of control, a tool for accumulating wealth, and a means of perpetuating dysfunctional “systems” that work against harmony, responsibility and self-sufficiency.

    Modernity (science, rationalism, democracy, industry, capitalism) is premised on the overthrow of the same corrupt forms of traditional authority that the founders of babai/bahai belief themselves fiercely denounced over and over and over.

    As Sen McGlinn and many others have said, the problem with modernity, in its state of “paradigm regression”, is that it attempts to “colonize lifeworld” (Habermas), thus it tries to impose a monolithic (“universal”) structure of consciousness on other paradigms. Postmodernism (pluralism, deconstruction) developed as a critique of the monolithic aspect of modernity. However, Sen does not state the further problem, which is that postmodernism itself has many nasty “paradigm regressive” forms of expression. Ken Wilber and other Integral thinkers have called those nasty forms of postmodernism the “mean green meme” (MGM). Once common version of the MGM is “political correctness” (thought policing).

    In reality, bahai HAS CLEARLY (AND BADLY) “adapted to culture” by absorbing the worst aspects of “monolithic colonization” by modernism “systems” and “thought policing” by postmodernism (not to mention pre-modern conformism and archaic rule by violence).

    The escape from the cycle of meaninglessness and backwardness is to peer into the evolutionary future of the human race, and see “something better”, which is holism, or trans-rational thought (an integration of transcendence and rationalism).

    The UHJ itself mentioned in a message to Dr. Susan Maneck that the “solution” to the “liberal vs. conservative” conflicts in bahai culture is to adaopt “Integrative Paradigms” benig developed by non-bahai scholars!!!

    *******************
    *** PLEASE NOTE ***
    *******************

    THE UHJ ITSELF HAS CLEARLY TOLD BAHAIS TO “ADAPT TO CULTURE”.

    Bahais are defying the very authority structure that they worship (by NOT “contributing to Integrative Paradigms”).

    As Craig says, the incompetence of bahai is so vast and unending as to stupify anyone that attempts to fathom it.

    CLEARLY, you and Masud are backward, priest-like “Dunces” of the Highest Order and Magnitude Imaginable.

    Anyways, the version of mysticism/service that you have in mind (“church is the center of the village”) is forever enslaved to a failed model of social progress that is premised upon worship of organization (“systems”), not human decency or transcendence (much less “integrative paradigms”).

    It is, in theory, simple to detach yourself from such false ideas and beliefs. Take a few moments during your days of mindless “happiness” while tending and tinkling on sprouts and shoots (that some evil bahai administrator will subsequently pour spiritual herbicides on if it dares to not conform to the enforcers of CORRECT GROWTH), and meditate on such detachment.

    Think about how glorious a contribution to a positive future you will make by stopping such foolishness. Think about how much better and more enlightened the lives of multitudes will be if the sources of bahai error, mischief and exploitation, such as yourself and masud, just mind your own business for once.

    Clearly bahai is increasingly tending toward incompetence, fundamentalism, conformism, backwardness, stupidity, intolerance, dysfunctional bureacuracy, injustice, elitism, racism and cultural imperialism. All of which are consistent with “enmity and hatred”.

    I am increasingly stunned at how many otherwise (at least moderately) intelligent people, like you and masud, simply believe in stupid things.

    As I’ve seen people that originally had some intellectual integrity rise up within the bahai system over the last couple of decades, they learn to give up much of their integrity in order to conform and “get along”. This is the same thing seen everywhere else in the world, people become cynical, and give up hope that any major social change can happen, and look for ways to establish an “emotional comfort zone” – and/or collect a paycheck.

    Since everything you belive is premised opn giving up “real” hope, you are the one that is unhappy, you just chose to cover it up with lies in order to “save face”.

    Your complete refusal to admit that bahais have failed to address the long and absurd internal history of social injustices and racism, and your adamant and inexplicable refusal to think that anything CONCRETE could or should be done to recognise or change it, is sufficient to prove my point.

    This is because your beliefs are empty, and the void has to be filled with “something”, and that “something” is worship of organization. It is emptiness upon emptiness.

    Ultimately what you believe in is destined for collapse. Which is why the bahai bureaucracy that you worhip has to constantly reinvent itself by crushing the spirits of people that come to the religion for a sense of belonging, real hope and change.

    You should be deeply and profoundly ashamed to be an apologist for such a morally bankrupt, corrupt, wretched, failed, mindless and heartless belief system.

    The fact that you encourage people to be “happy” and march off a cliff like a herd of mindless lemmings simply reinforces the absurd futility of anyone thinking that the bahai leadership elites have any clue about how to reform the religion so that it makes sense to the rest of the world.

    Thus, bahai can not be considered “the cause of love and fellowship”, and, according to bahai scripture itself, should be abolished.

    Your “unity” is really “false unity”.

    It is lies and cowardice.

    Have a wnoderful weekend!
    ep

    [quote comment=""]Eric,

    I fully agree with the point brought up by Masud, with which you disagree:

    “Again, I think that culture should adapt to the Baha’i Faith, not vice-versa.”

    This is the crux of all religious belief: the concept of the sacred, Mother Nature, the Great architect, the Revelation of God, etc, provides a nucleus to which people adhere with heart and soul, and around which a civilisation can be weaved. These are the warp and the woof of civilisation, if you prefer. The Swiss have an expression: put the church in the middle of the village”

    Jaques Monod, the French Nobel prize wrote a treatise in teh 1970s called “Le Hazard et la Necessit?©”, a cold and arid plea for objectivity, which is translated into English, in which he considers science as providing it’s own source of objective ethics, BUT he goes on to explain that it is the concept of the sacred that can attract people to these ethical laws to the point that they are ready to sacrifice their lives for it.

    Whatever the mistakes Baha’is like us might make, however pessimistic we might be, the Faith of God will march on in an exponential manner as it has done for the last century and a half. Not with the aim of success for itself, but with the aim of reforming human society. As the French say, we should not only look at the half empty part of the bottle, but also at the half full part. Otherwise we will suffer from depression.

    Shoots, branches and flowers are blooming everywhere. We should lift our eyes from the mire and dirt of the compost to look at the budding community.[/quote]

  • Craig Parke

    Some of God’s “latest work”:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7548716.stm

    EP,

    Thanks for you very cogent analysis here lately. Spot on.

    What meme is this above footage?

  • Craig Parke

    Some of God’s “latest work”:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7548716.stm

    EP,

    Thanks for you very cogent analysis here lately. Spot on.

    What meme is this above footage?

  • ep

    RE: REAL WORLD PEACE POSSIBLE? (INTEGRAL THEORY EXCERPTS.)

    Craig,

    Thanks for the support, it means a lot. Resisting the convoluted, conformist thought policing that is prevalent in bahai culture is exhausting. I guess the process is cathartic in that unearthing repressed/hidden collective experiences can have a cleansing effect?

    re:
    | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7548716.stm
    | What meme is this above footage?

    Mostly blue meme (feudal/warlord). Russian empirialism. Probably with tribal elements.

    I have not studied the Russia/Georgia conflict in detail yet, watching such idiocy and pointless tragedy is painful, but I will eventually come to terms with this latest example of broken humanity, and try to understand the causes.

    In general, here is an integral perspective on war and the need for a world police force:

    (note to other readers: I’m including these longish excerpts because they contain very specific ideas about world peace efforts, not generalized “feel good” rhetoric such as most bahais spout off.)

    | Some of Graves’ students went on to work with Nelson Mandela to
    | organize the truth and reconcoliation process in post-apartheid
    | south afria. Again, no bahais were present, or apparently aware
    | of what happened, or why Graves theories about
    | developmental �stages� (�Spiral Dynamics�) are important to
    | peace work.

    Ken Wilber’s �take� on the Iraq war:

    http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/misc/iraq.cfm

    … I therefore suggested a few things about what a world governance system operating at yellow might look like. â€?Yellowâ€? is the level of consciousness at which â€?second tierâ€? or truly integral awareness begins to emerge. It is thus contrasted with the previous 6 levels or vMemes—which are called first tier, each of which believes that its value system is the only true, correct, or deeply worthwhile value system in existence. Those first-tier waves are, very briefly:

    beige: instinctual;

    purple: magical-animistic, tribal;

    red: egocentric, power, feudalistic;

    blue: mythic-membership, conformist, fundamentalist, ethnocentric, traditional;

    orange: excellence, achievement, progress, modern;

    green: postmodern, multicultural, sensitive, pluralistic.

    Those first-tier waves of development are followed by what Clare Graves called �the momentous leap of meaning� to second tier, which has, as of today, two major levels or waves of awareness:

    yellow: systemic, flexible, flowing;

    turquoise: cosmic unity, integrative, nested hierarchies of interrelationships, one-in-many holism.

    The reason that Graves called second tier a �momentous leap� is that unlike all first-tier waves (which imagine their values are the only correct values), second tier has an understanding of the crucial if relative importance of all previous values—including red, blue, orange, and green. Orange thinks green is mindless; green despises orange; blue thinks both of them are going to burn in hell forever. Yellow, on the other hand, finds all of them necessary and acceptable, as long as none of them gets the upper hand and starts repressing the others. This, needless to say, would have a profound influence on any World Federation operating from yellow or second tier values (as we will see).

    There are two basic points to keep in mind about any future world governance system. The first is that laws, to be laws, are enacted from the highest average expectable level of development in the governance system. In today’s world, for example, most of the laws in Western democracies stem from the orange level, which is worldcentric, postconventional, and modern (or, as our French friends first expressed the orange meme 300 years ago: equality, fraternity, liberty). Many countries continue to operate basically at a blue level: conformist, non-democratic (dictatorial or totalitarian), grounded not in evidence but in dogma (Marxist, Muslim, or otherwise), and ethnocentric (believe the Book or burn). Some terrorist cells (not to mention street gangs) remain at red: hierarchies of raw power and physical strength, implemented often by torture, rape, or any means necessary to keep a particular warlord in power. Although structures such as red and blue might sound rather brutal, and often are, they have to be seen in context: they are usually the best that can be arranged under the given circumstances and conditions.

    …even in an â€?integral societyâ€? (yellow or higher), there will still be pockets or subcultures of individuals at purple, red, blue, orange, and green. This is not only unavoidable, it is healthy, normal, desirable.

    [*] What is not desirable, however, is that any of those waves
    [*] dominate the governance system and therefore attempt to
    [*] force their values on others

    A second-tier, integral, World Federation—in my Utopian view—would therefore prevent any first-tier memes from dominating, attacking, or exploiting any other populations. If necessary, a World Federation would do so by using force, just as all democracies today have an internal police force to curtail murder, rape, robbery, extortion, and so on. Somebody whose center of gravity is green will not commit murder, rape, or robbery. However, somebody whose center of gravity is red will do any or all of those, sometimes happily. And because everybody is born at square one, and must progress through purple, red, blue, and so on,

    [*] some sort of police will always be necessary to protect
    [*] others from those who do not evolve to a worldcentric
    [*] level of care and compassion.

    So any World Federation would have some sort of police force, of necessity. Call them the World Cops. Needless to say, the World Cops would be regulated by the World Federation, not by any country (and certainly not by America, Britain, France, Germany, etc.).

    This police force is

    [*] NOT allowed to tell people what level of consciousness they should be at; it is

    [*] NOT allowed to govern what individuals do in the privacy of their own homes or dwellings; it is

    [*] NOT allowed to coerce or intimidate people who are not at the average level of social development.

    It is, however, allowed to prevent (or punish) those whose public behavior stems from a less-than-worldcentric stance.

    …I personally believe that any protest movement that does not equally protest both America’s invasion and Saddam’s murder of 400,000 people is a protest movement that does not truly represent peace or non-aggression or worldcentric values.

    I am aware of no major protest movement that has protested both forms of violence equally, and that has insisted upon an immediate end to both aggressions, and offered a believable way that both aggressions could actually be halted immediately so that neither side can continue its homicidal actions.

    That is, I am aware of no integral protest movement anywhere in the world, unfortunately.

    …Unless there is a healthy blue infrastructure—whether in inner city ghettos or Mid-East tribes—there is no place for red youth to go, and thus they end up trapped in warlord city. Forcing â€?democracyâ€? on such a culture simply results, as it consistently has elsewhere, in the free election of military dictators. This, needless to say, is a complex topic; readers are again referred to A Theory of Everything for an overview, as well as to integralinstitute.org.)

    What has struck me the most in the highly emotional debates about the war in Iraq is how deeply the entire discussion is sunk in first-tier value fights. Both the blue-to-orange Bush supporters, and the orange-to-green media (and protesters) give wildly skewed, biased, and prejudiced accounts of the events. I am constantly taken aback by how brutally narrow a given perspective is, even (and sometimes especially) those claiming to be caring and inclusive and compassionate. There is plenty of truth on each side of the debate, just not the whole truth, which both sides vociferously claim to possess.


    I believe that the first World Federation will likely be orange-to-green. My hope is that it will be healthy green, but who knows? I believe that any such green World Federation will make substantial strides toward world harmony, but it will eventually face the inherent limitations and contradictions of all first-tier perspectives. The equivalent of worldwide, politically-correct thought-police will surface—a green Inquisition, if you will—whose subtle brutalities, accompanied by a series of extremely unpleasant economic events brought about by green’s hobbling of orange business, will force a second-tier, yellow, World Federation to move haltingly into place. (Orange business cripples ecology; ecological green cripples orange business; both are forms of first-tier violence, neither of which is countenanced by yellow, and thus the first World Federation will likely be characterized, among numerous other forms of wholeness in practice, by a reconciliation between capitalism and ecology.) But that, I believe, will be at least a century or so away.

    —end excerpts—

    [quote comment="54452"]Some of God’s “latest work”:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7548716.stm

    EP,

    Thanks for you very cogent analysis here lately. Spot on.

    What meme is this above footage?[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Some of God’s “latest work”:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7548716.stm

    EP,

    Thanks for you very cogent analysis here lately. Spot on.

    What meme is this above footage?[/quote]

  • ep

    RE: REAL WORLD PEACE POSSIBLE? (INTEGRAL THEORY EXCERPTS.)

    Craig,

    Thanks for the support, it means a lot. Resisting the convoluted, conformist thought policing that is prevalent in bahai culture is exhausting. I guess the process is cathartic in that unearthing repressed/hidden collective experiences can have a cleansing effect?

    re:
    | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7548716.stm
    | What meme is this above footage?

    Mostly blue meme (feudal/warlord). Russian empirialism. Probably with tribal elements.

    I have not studied the Russia/Georgia conflict in detail yet, watching such idiocy and pointless tragedy is painful, but I will eventually come to terms with this latest example of broken humanity, and try to understand the causes.

    In general, here is an integral perspective on war and the need for a world police force:

    (note to other readers: I’m including these longish excerpts because they contain very specific ideas about world peace efforts, not generalized “feel good” rhetoric such as most bahais spout off.)

    | Some of Graves’ students went on to work with Nelson Mandela to
    | organize the truth and reconcoliation process in post-apartheid
    | south afria. Again, no bahais were present, or apparently aware
    | of what happened, or why Graves theories about
    | developmental �stages� (�Spiral Dynamics�) are important to
    | peace work.

    Ken Wilber’s �take� on the Iraq war:

    http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/misc/iraq.cfm

    … I therefore suggested a few things about what a world governance system operating at yellow might look like. â€?Yellowâ€? is the level of consciousness at which â€?second tierâ€? or truly integral awareness begins to emerge. It is thus contrasted with the previous 6 levels or vMemes—which are called first tier, each of which believes that its value system is the only true, correct, or deeply worthwhile value system in existence. Those first-tier waves are, very briefly:

    beige: instinctual;

    purple: magical-animistic, tribal;

    red: egocentric, power, feudalistic;

    blue: mythic-membership, conformist, fundamentalist, ethnocentric, traditional;

    orange: excellence, achievement, progress, modern;

    green: postmodern, multicultural, sensitive, pluralistic.

    Those first-tier waves of development are followed by what Clare Graves called �the momentous leap of meaning� to second tier, which has, as of today, two major levels or waves of awareness:

    yellow: systemic, flexible, flowing;

    turquoise: cosmic unity, integrative, nested hierarchies of interrelationships, one-in-many holism.

    The reason that Graves called second tier a �momentous leap� is that unlike all first-tier waves (which imagine their values are the only correct values), second tier has an understanding of the crucial if relative importance of all previous values—including red, blue, orange, and green. Orange thinks green is mindless; green despises orange; blue thinks both of them are going to burn in hell forever. Yellow, on the other hand, finds all of them necessary and acceptable, as long as none of them gets the upper hand and starts repressing the others. This, needless to say, would have a profound influence on any World Federation operating from yellow or second tier values (as we will see).

    There are two basic points to keep in mind about any future world governance system. The first is that laws, to be laws, are enacted from the highest average expectable level of development in the governance system. In today’s world, for example, most of the laws in Western democracies stem from the orange level, which is worldcentric, postconventional, and modern (or, as our French friends first expressed the orange meme 300 years ago: equality, fraternity, liberty). Many countries continue to operate basically at a blue level: conformist, non-democratic (dictatorial or totalitarian), grounded not in evidence but in dogma (Marxist, Muslim, or otherwise), and ethnocentric (believe the Book or burn). Some terrorist cells (not to mention street gangs) remain at red: hierarchies of raw power and physical strength, implemented often by torture, rape, or any means necessary to keep a particular warlord in power. Although structures such as red and blue might sound rather brutal, and often are, they have to be seen in context: they are usually the best that can be arranged under the given circumstances and conditions.

    …even in an â€?integral societyâ€? (yellow or higher), there will still be pockets or subcultures of individuals at purple, red, blue, orange, and green. This is not only unavoidable, it is healthy, normal, desirable.

    [*] What is not desirable, however, is that any of those waves
    [*] dominate the governance system and therefore attempt to
    [*] force their values on others

    A second-tier, integral, World Federation—in my Utopian view—would therefore prevent any first-tier memes from dominating, attacking, or exploiting any other populations. If necessary, a World Federation would do so by using force, just as all democracies today have an internal police force to curtail murder, rape, robbery, extortion, and so on. Somebody whose center of gravity is green will not commit murder, rape, or robbery. However, somebody whose center of gravity is red will do any or all of those, sometimes happily. And because everybody is born at square one, and must progress through purple, red, blue, and so on,

    [*] some sort of police will always be necessary to protect
    [*] others from those who do not evolve to a worldcentric
    [*] level of care and compassion.

    So any World Federation would have some sort of police force, of necessity. Call them the World Cops. Needless to say, the World Cops would be regulated by the World Federation, not by any country (and certainly not by America, Britain, France, Germany, etc.).

    This police force is

    [*] NOT allowed to tell people what level of consciousness they should be at; it is

    [*] NOT allowed to govern what individuals do in the privacy of their own homes or dwellings; it is

    [*] NOT allowed to coerce or intimidate people who are not at the average level of social development.

    It is, however, allowed to prevent (or punish) those whose public behavior stems from a less-than-worldcentric stance.

    …I personally believe that any protest movement that does not equally protest both America’s invasion and Saddam’s murder of 400,000 people is a protest movement that does not truly represent peace or non-aggression or worldcentric values.

    I am aware of no major protest movement that has protested both forms of violence equally, and that has insisted upon an immediate end to both aggressions, and offered a believable way that both aggressions could actually be halted immediately so that neither side can continue its homicidal actions.

    That is, I am aware of no integral protest movement anywhere in the world, unfortunately.

    …Unless there is a healthy blue infrastructure—whether in inner city ghettos or Mid-East tribes—there is no place for red youth to go, and thus they end up trapped in warlord city. Forcing â€?democracyâ€? on such a culture simply results, as it consistently has elsewhere, in the free election of military dictators. This, needless to say, is a complex topic; readers are again referred to A Theory of Everything for an overview, as well as to integralinstitute.org.)

    What has struck me the most in the highly emotional debates about the war in Iraq is how deeply the entire discussion is sunk in first-tier value fights. Both the blue-to-orange Bush supporters, and the orange-to-green media (and protesters) give wildly skewed, biased, and prejudiced accounts of the events. I am constantly taken aback by how brutally narrow a given perspective is, even (and sometimes especially) those claiming to be caring and inclusive and compassionate. There is plenty of truth on each side of the debate, just not the whole truth, which both sides vociferously claim to possess.


    I believe that the first World Federation will likely be orange-to-green. My hope is that it will be healthy green, but who knows? I believe that any such green World Federation will make substantial strides toward world harmony, but it will eventually face the inherent limitations and contradictions of all first-tier perspectives. The equivalent of worldwide, politically-correct thought-police will surface—a green Inquisition, if you will—whose subtle brutalities, accompanied by a series of extremely unpleasant economic events brought about by green’s hobbling of orange business, will force a second-tier, yellow, World Federation to move haltingly into place. (Orange business cripples ecology; ecological green cripples orange business; both are forms of first-tier violence, neither of which is countenanced by yellow, and thus the first World Federation will likely be characterized, among numerous other forms of wholeness in practice, by a reconciliation between capitalism and ecology.) But that, I believe, will be at least a century or so away.

    —end excerpts—

    [quote comment="54452"]Some of God’s “latest work”:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7548716.stm

    EP,

    Thanks for you very cogent analysis here lately. Spot on.

    What meme is this above footage?[/quote]
    [quote comment=""]Some of God’s “latest work”:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7548716.stm

    EP,

    Thanks for you very cogent analysis here lately. Spot on.

    What meme is this above footage?[/quote]