Google, being the most widely used search engine, collects an unbelievably large amount of data about how we use the internet and what we search for. Since their motto is “Don’t be evil” they are rather transparent and open up a lot of this data, offering an intriguing view into what people around the world are curious about.
According to Google, a lot of folks are interested to learn more about the Baha’i Faith on the internet. The keyword “bahai” ranks at around 80, which is relatively high (out of 100). The trend over the past 4 years is moderately decreasing however.
Google also breaks down the search volume for keywords by geography. Perhaps you would be surprised to learn that, by far, the most curious, are Iranians:
According to Google, Iran’s search volume for the keyword Baha’ is 100 (the highest). I’m amazed to see such unbridled curiosity from the cradle of the Faith. Not just because I tend to read from most parts that people there are generally apathetic but also because of the technological limitations imposed by a nationwide firewall which rivals China’s.
If you drill down into the Iranian data, you discover that there has been a dramatic drop off in search volume for Baha’i in the past 4 years. It has gone from 100 to low double digits. Maybe that’s when the firewall went into effect. Or perhaps it was ratcheted up.
Understandably, the second spot goes to Israel, at a respectable 67. I don’t know about you, but I would be a tiny bit interested to learn more about this “Baha’i” thing if I had scores of Baha’is in my backyard every year.
Unfortunately for the proclamation efforts of the NSA of the United States, Americans are apathetic at an index reading of just 39. However, the people in the state of Illinois, for some strange reason, show the highest interest. Followed very closely by Alaska.
Another country scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of interest is Chile. Hopefully once the Santiago Temple is finished, that will change things.
If you want to tinker with the data, here is the link for the Google Insight worldwide, and Iran specific search data.
Maybe all the searches on “bahai” from Iran were just the Shi’a thought police on the prowl looking to cleanse the universe of bahai impurity? after a while they probably realized now incompetent bahais are around the world, and turned their attention to more important things, like making sure the peasants and oppressed classes can get drunk as easily as possible so as to not bother the autoritarians in power in iran.
Hi Baquia,
I think your description of what Google Insights tells us is a bit off. This is all normalized and scaled data that gives us info about a search term only *in relation to itself*. In other words, Google finds the day that the ratio of the key term to overall searches is highest, makes that equal to 100 and then tells you how all other days related to it. So, for example, the overall rank for Baha’i of 76 just means that in the average month the search volume is 76% of the highest month (March 2004). It gives no information about the actual number of searches, or how the key word compares to other key words (which I understand to be what you imply) - just how it compares to itself as a ratio over time. Same thing with regions - the region with the highest volume (not absolute number) becomes 100, everywhere else is compared against it.
To get a sense of this, type in ‘Islam’ instead of ‘Baha’i’. The overall number is 67, but despite the temptation to compare this to the Baha’i 76, these numbers in fact aren’t comparable at all. The 67 only means, again, that the average month is 67% of the volume of the peak month (February 2006). The 76 and 67 are meaningless when compared to each other b/c they only make sense relative to themselves.
What all this means is that Insights gives us a sense of internal movement, but absolutely no way of making comparisons or seeing absolute numbers. So the claim that Americans are apathetic because of the 39 doesn’t follow - all that tells us is that the volume (i.e., a normalized ratio not absolute number) is approximately 39% of Iran’s. That might be a huge number, it might be a small number - point is we don’t know from this data.
What we can say is that the volume has decreased over time, but try Islam, Christianity or any other religion as a key-word instead and you get the same type of dip. I’d be suspicious of a claim that the absolute number of searches about religions is going down, so I suspect there’s something else going on having to do with the increase in overall searches of all kinds (so the ratio goes down) or changes in search habits (e.g., more use of wikipedia type sites).
Best,
David
I would say that changes in search habits ARE happening and this very well could be a cause in the framework of this initial Google tracking methodology. People are often going directly to Wikipedia and other such search sites to search DIRECTLY there now. If someone put a Wikipedia link button directly into a browser tool bar (does anyone have this feature yet? I’ll have to check on the new Firefox 3? it WOULD have an effect over time on search patterns. So, I agree, this change is more a result of a change pattern in system usage than actual behavior.
But people ARE getting sick of “religion” these days however. Too much bloodshed by fanatics, sociopaths, and not terribly bright people. People seem to search more on what celebrity is having a nervous breakdown this week. Better that than studying the nervous breakdowns of the world in general. It is on a more understandable human scale.
Here is where “religion” goes these days on this planet of cosmically illiterate morons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMseIGe-YvE
I myself believe there IS a God, but the beings on this planet are utterly incapable of understanding or discussing anything about even the concept. And that includes the “Divine Manifestations”. I believe every soul sent to this world has committed some terrible, unspeakable crime in some other Universe and that is why all of us have been sent here to start over and try to figure things out. As of yet our grade as a species is “F” for failure.
The only good thing we have yet achieved on this planet in all these millions of years of evolution is Rock and Roll. That’s it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjy7RAu8TJ4
Here is another goodie from Leon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sXGT0WhFnU
LR looks good here. Willie does too. And RC.
After all these years of having once played a lot of Leon’s music, I finally got to see him in person just two weeks before 9/11 back in 2001. It was in a little town arts festival in rural PA. His tour bus was the biggest vehicle parked in the town that night. He played on the front porch of a old red brick YMCA to no more than 600 people across an open lawn on a starry night. Leon Russell was the greatest touring rock act in the world in 1974. His music is very spiritual. There are many Sufi like levels of cosmic insight in his music. That is why he has such a huge lifetime following to the people who get it. He plays probably well over 120 dates a year in small clubs and theaters. He still has a very dedicated life long following of fans who just love him. The Master of Time and Space on the keyboard.
I was standing about twenty-five feet from him when he arrived. Both his son and daughter played in the band. They helped him up onto the stage. He played song after song for a solid two hours. I finally got to see him in person after all these years.
It was fabulous!
Every one have a nice weekend!
And if you are in the way of any Russian or Georgian tanks tonight and go under the steel treads to your death, just remember it is just “God’s work” as the All Highest GMAN said.
you can compare Islam and Baha’i in approximate, but concrete terms
As pointed out in the earlier post regarding how the numbers are arrived at, I think the conclusion that the overall numbers of searches is declining, is indicative of the bias of the articles author, which seems to be to diminish the Faith at every opportunity, as anyone who reads earlier articles will see.
Sincere Friend,
In your view, is it possible that Baquia simply made a mistake, that s/he simply misunderstood the numbers?
It seems to me that your claim is indicative of the Bahai knee-jerk response to cast aspersions on anyone who doesn’t march in lockstep with Bahai officaldom.
Thank you for the new subject Baquia!
My first intuition of the information of the high % of hits in Iran is that there is where the actual bloodline of Baha’u’llah lives. Maybe the living blood being excommunicated from within it’s own, combined the interpretation that Bahà’í religion is to the followers the omega of God’s word for the next 900+ years, naturally sparks the curiously of those who seek to understand what is going on, especially people tied with Zionist according to their own government. One consideration for sure must be that the source is close to the source, the bloodline.
I would like to see the statistics or a report that graphs the content increase per “key word” data over the last 10 years. In 1996 when one would key word “Bahà’í” it was all pretty cool stuff from around the world, teaching stories, successes … Then something happened in late 97’ and it just spiraled into a mega, 2,150,000 hits as of 08/08/08 (infinity day, not another one like it for 100 years ~~~(cool huh)~~~. The scanned actual documents of Ruth White’s efforts to authenticate the LWT of Abul’Baha from the Library of Congress were not available then, now they are. Everything conceivable an inconceivable is being added daily, especially in here
NO HOLDS BAR and BAR NONE that is the internet!
There is still a lot of unanswered questions and as long as that exist, so apropos to post it on infinity day, to infinity and beyond for them.
Much obliged for your efforts and reporting skills.
Bird
* I ment to post this yesterday 08/08/08
Hi Bird,
Good observation.
The Internet is adding information good and bad about EVERY ORGANIZATION on Earth minute by minute daily. The ONLY PUBLIC DEFENSE for ANY ORGANIZATION for the next one thousand years is scrupulous justice, fair dealing, and WORLD CLASS COMPETENCE in EVERYTHING the organization does at EVERY LEVEL 24/7/365/1000. This will be the simple truth. It will be merciless. It is from the Maid of Heaven - the Spirit of the World Age. She is One Tough Iron Lady. Everyone better get used to this level of worldwide public scrutiny. Absolutely nothing can be hidden now.
You get elected or appointed to ANY organization ON EARTH ANYWHERE for the NEXT ONE THOUSAND YEARS and you had better bring your A GAME and know what you are doing. You better have morals and ethics, you had better practice what you preach, and most of all, you had better be ONE HUNDRED PERCENT COMPETENT AS A HUMAN BEING.
Otherwise, it will be curtains and MERCILESS WORLDWIDE PUBLIC EVALUATION at any time just like how an LSA evaluates a person for service on a Committee as part of their official duties. Term limits will eventually come in the Baha’i Faith (two terms of five years each max on the UHJ - eight years total lifetime service on an NSA worldwide) because THE FIERCE PUBLIC HEAT OF THE INTERNET WILL BE TOO MUCH. The closed bubble these people are living in will eventually pop.
I also predict that the individual members of the UHJ will also eventually stop giving public speeches of their own personal opinions to captive audiences using their “elected” positions because the heat will just be too much. Traveling the world giving one’s personal opinions in speeches just isn’t in their job description and never was and the UHJ will eventually recognize that themselves when fully mature people start getting elected to that body.
Deeds not words. If you are an idiot and if you are incredibly incompetent in your elected or appointed office IN ANY ORGANIZATION ON EARTH the world will now learn about it overnight at the speed of light.
Every person on Earth now has the editorial power of the New York Times. Even having a good lawyer on retainer won’t help.
Times have changed from 1994 when the BAO apparently tried to control what anyone said in every “Baha’i” moment of Internet access on the early List Servers. It’s all kind of quaint now.
Welcome to the New Day.
The thing that matters most now in this new world of information overload is the ability to manifest mature critical thought to discern truth from falsity. There is very little of that now in the dumbed down Ruhiized Faith. But there once was plenty of it in the once great free thinking, free wheeling bottom up Baha’i Faith. It was once one of our greatest assets. No more. All that ability and skill is completely dissipated and wasted now. Anyone capable of critical thinking will be hounded out of the top down NEWTHINK Baha’i Faith now. You have to check your mind at the door once you sign a card. That is the new price of membership. Truly, a terrible, terrible human tragedy. Only organizations of people capable of ruthlessly skilled critical thought will achieve and retain any kind of power in the real world now.
Everyone have a nice weekend!
Thank you. I didn’t know you could compare two keywords like that.
SF, what I wrote were simply facts, as best as I could discern them at the time. If I was wrong, I’m glad to learn and change my position. This is how I try to operate. What do you do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hil7k58bFJM
That’s a really handy tool Google have provided. Thanks Steve for mentioning being able to compare search data for Islam and Baha’i. I tried it for a range of different religions and noted that Baha’i was consistently getting low results compared to Buddhism or Buddhist, Hinduism or Hindu, Islam and Christianity, not surprising considering that all those religions are much much large than the Baha’i Faith. You can do it for more than two search terms, so I tried it for all five:
http://www.google.com/insights/search/#cat=&q=hindu%2Cbuddhist%2Cislam%2Cchristian%2Cbaha‘i&geo=&date=&clp=&cmpt=q
and if you go down the page a bit you can check regions of interest for particular religions, and the Baha’i Faith doesn’t really feature in any of them.
So much for entry by troops.
Honestly Sincere Friend, how can you interpret it otherwise? If there was growing receptivity as the UHJ claims in its letters, surely that would be reflected in increasing internet searches for the Faith. What Baquia has put up is really good evidence to prove otherwise.
Grover stated:
“Entry by troops” doesn’t necessarily have to be reflected in internet queries does it?
If one wants to select a reflection of what makes the world go around via internet methods, then the world would be viewed as simply concerned with sex as that industry has proven to be the most successful enterprise on the internet. But that idea isn’t so when looking at the entire use of the internet.
David provides a rather good explanation of internet statistics rendered by the common data gathering machine when he states the searches are based upon a reference “peak”. What the trends may indicate is either an interest that is climbing, or one declining according to a recent standard, and those trends may be relative and influenced by current political events. Basically, people want to know the truth about something and when told that something is bad. Because the internet is close, they will search. In this case (Iran) perhaps it would be interesting to examine the Baha’i political persecution aspects in Iran vs. internet search. Do they correspond? It’s the same with all search stats. That is, the type of events that are compelling people to search for any truth may be events happening around them. In the case of Iran, it is well known that the Iranian gov’t has a “programme” of subjecting the Baha’is to wholesale instances of persecution.
“Entry by troops” is not a simple statement that stands alone without viewing all aspects. I would suggest an expansion of understanding be generated and the centering of thought toward only the obvious be discarded.
Well, I would have thought that increased receptivity towards the Faith would have increased internet searches regarding the Faith. In fact you would also expect to see increased searches for material against the Faith by those who percieve the Faith to be a threat. Its simple and measurable. Likewise with entry by troops, you would expect people to be finding out as much as they could (using the internet as one easily accessible source of information) before and after signing the cards.
On the plus sde, we are doing better than Zoroastrianism…
What Do I Do?
I observe what is written over time and see the contexts, the agendas, and where the biases lay. You are not entirely about truth as you pretend to be but about promoting your agenda of corrosive criticism because of some offense you have taken.
You cant claim to be all about truth when you react to any personal criticism by pulling out polemics like, “knee jerk reactions”, etc.
Insincere Friend,
If you’re addressing Baquia, I was the one who used the term “knee jerk reaction.”
Your comment speaks for itself.
With respect to the posts declaring this the age of great internet information freedom. Are you watching what is going on in China, Iran, Tunisia and other totalitarian states? This is coming to your hometown ISP soon too. The plans are underway to for all subscription ISPs to carry only large “content providers”(read main stream media) available for the base subscription with access to other sites that are not mainstream to have access only on an additional fee basis. With ISPs being bought up by media conglomerates this is the new future of the internet my friends. See if it doenst happen within the lifetime of this blog. For those of you who doubt this prediction read my posts from 10 months ago about the looming mortgage crisis. Everyone who responded, particularly our host, said I was out of my mind that no everything is fine economically.
The lesson of history is the bureaucrats always win. Unless there is a revolution where they are swept away or they collapse due to their own corruption or incompetence, but then we humans just build them up again. As so many have said, the price of freedom is vigilance. As long as religion is organized we will have the problems that we complain about here in our Faith. It is simply the nature of the beast.
Would someone find an organization - commercial, religious, educational, governmental, etc. - that one can not make the same complaints about? Please tell me I would like to study it. For God’s sake even our own parents screw things up.
As soon as dealing with people becomes systematized there is no more dealing with individuals only with categories. Dealing with categories makes it more efficient for particular purposes(i.e. sending packages, serving meals, doing day surgery), but less responsive to the individualized realities that are part of real life.
SD-
You are neither sincere, or friendly. As such, you appear to just another predictable, boring, dishonest bahai hypocrit defending stasis, dysfunctional organization, etc.
In other words, look at yourself for an “agenda” that is biased.
The simple proof of your bias is the use of the word “corrosive”, which is internal bahai “code” for “a nonconformist that has to be attacked”.
You are simply providing another example, on top of a giant mountain of similar examples, of the ritualized violence that takes place within bahai culture against any critic, dissident, or nonconformist.
The world is moving away, very rapidly for the most part, from these kind of ritualized medieval inquisitions that take place as part of “normal” bahai life.
One of the reasons that there aren’t “entry by troops” is because of the many bahais like youself that are stuck in the Dark Ages.
SF,
Holy Shite!
You are starting to sound like, well, ME!
Soon you may be quoting, well, uh, Thomas Jefferson, then, well, uh, maybe even Lord Acton! Damn! Then I will know you have really drunk the Divine Rational Anti-Kool Aid of post Renaissance political enlightenment (which is really practical observational analysis of organizational psychology in terms of the 18th Century which basically says ALL human beings are TOTALLY INSANE and CANNOT be individually trusted with ANY kind of power whatsoever so there HAVE to be checks and balances put upon them in some kind of formal mutually agreed upon system for the safety of all citizens.
I am very heartened to see you coming around to the viewpoint of many here among the rebel underground! The checks and balances on the immature lifetime incumbent embarrassing boys and girls now currently running the Baha’i Faith in a very badly written hack version of “Lord of the Flys” will be the mature educated men and women that will post on the Internet over the next 1,000 years. People who understand the brass knuckles of checks and balances by the sword of the pen. People who understand that sometimes you have to be able to administer a knee kick to someone’s privates to get them to snap out of their derangement. It will be merciless.
You are entirely right to indirectly imply in your analogy that the Baha’i Faith will itself, MOST CERTAINLY, try to shut down the Internet if and when the Faith ever comes to any real power in the world just like the mindset of the self appointed control freaks running the Chinese Communist Party and the dip shit sociopaths of the clergy systems of Islam. It goes with the archetypal projection mindset of the Super Mommy - Super Daddy top down Super Ideological Projection Nanny State. Just read Peter Khan’s speeches. Get nine Peter Khan’s running the show somewhere down the road in the future and every keyboard on Earth will be monitored and people will be arrested by the Thought Police and sent to the camps and eventually up the chimneys.
But to counter all that some radical I heard about once taught that we should see through our own eyes and not through the eyes of others. Some radical I heard about once taught that religious and political leaders that are full of shit are going to have their power taken from them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Px3nBTLZCQ
So I am proud of you SF! It seems by this post today that you are secretly starting to put your glasses on sometimes. You are even starting to sound a little paranoid. It is a nice charming touch to your post!
“Unless there is a revolution where they are swept away or they collapse due to their own corruption or incompetence, but then we humans just build them up again. As so many have said, the price of freedom is vigilance. As long as religion is organized we will have the problems that we complain about here in our Faith. It is simply the nature of the beast.”
Wow! Wow! Wow!
Best regards and have a nice weekend!
Your true brother,
Craig
Yes, and no. Yes, I agree, one would expect to see an increase. On the other hand it seems as if the people who are sincere in their search may be going to the “official” Baha’i websites - rather than just searching. You can tell that by the messages put out by the Universal House of Justice as they document activity and membership increases. What this may mean is that there is a growing body of people not “searching” but typing the URL in directly.
As for those hostile to the Faith, perhaps they are searching. Perhaps, however, viewing the opinion from traditional clergy as complete truth (without investigating it themselves) they tend to stay away from what they believe as heresy.
I’m sorry, but I do not understand what you are referencing when you state “we are doing better than Zoroastrianism”. Does that mean the stats and reasons for what is cursory and addressed prior are being ignored? Defining what “better” is with respect to political drama, physical conditions, and monetary abilities may be needed don’t you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_theory_(philosophy)
SF-
Your prediction about the sub-prime meltdown was good, but not too hard. Paul Gigot was writing about it 5 years ago in the WSJ, but the banking industry lobbyists bought off most of congress to stop investigations and hearings. both major political parties were/are complicit.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121677050160675397.html?mod=fpa_editors_picks
50% of the population in industrialized/modern “orange meme” socieities such as the usa are at lower levels of development, so when the dominant paradigm fails, there is a tendency to regress to earlier values-ideas-beliefs. thus when progressivism failed to deliver on its promises of social reform (1960s-1980s), peple turned to neoconservatism, with all the ill effects we see today.
so, the rise of monopolistic capitalism that erodes democratizing politics is unfortunate and widely understood, and has to be fought.
history is cyclical.
as a libertarian, I deplore both corrupt big business and corrupt big government (the “nanny state”). As history demonstrates, you can’t have corrupt big business without corrupt big government.
allowing mass media companies to sell open bandwidth at higher prices than restricted bandwidth is a bad sign - it seems like it turns the internet into something like TV networks, or “the phone company”, or “talk radio”. an ISP version of PBS/NPR will probably be needed if the internet’s business model moves in the direction of restricting open access? Or citizen cooperatives?
unfortunately a dumbing-down has occurred, and the lack of an independent, well-informed citizenry makes it easy for sleazy big business to get away with such stuff.
I VOTED FOR RON PAUL.
Craig Parke wrote:
If you believe that critical thinking is not welcome in the Faith, then you do not really understand the Faith. I would also suggest that your thought process is “western” based as it gives weight to the individual rather than the thought pattern generally seen in the “eastern”, communal activities.
To comment on your statement: “Only organizations of people capable of ruthlessly skilled critical thought will achieve and retain any kind of power in the real world now.” The terms “ruthlessly skilled critical thought” and “any kind of power” along with “the real world” suggests a mono like, power based, activity is needed to appease your version of “the real world”. I would wonder what happens when the hearts of people reach a critical mass to change the definition of “power”. Remember Mahatma Gandhi and the methodology that changed India’s power form?
I am starting to believe by your words you have difficulty adapting to any formalized religion as the term “critical thinking” seems to need to fit a single definition - yours. This is stated because of the comment “Ruhiized Faith”. To trivialize methods of teaching basic facts and ideas suggest someone that rejects the validity of opinion beyond ones own. If you recall, and believe, that God sends down teachers to give us information in a progressive manner, then you would understand that “critical” thinking is something that evolves and is based many times on experience and supposition. It is not defined by definition itself.
TerrB,
Thank you for your post to me.
As I have explained here in the past, since I took Ruhi Book One in 2004 my mental functioning decreased. The experience caused me to become impaired in my ability to think and reason and to even follow the syntax of a sentence.
To demonstrate, after taking the course over a six week period I started to experience fade outs in being able to follow a thought. It is something like my above mental effort being suddenly experienced this way where there are drop outs in connection to the idea being conveyed.
“As I have _________ ____ __ ___ ___, since I ___ ___ ____ ___ __n ___ my ____ _____ _______. The _______ _______ __ __ ___ __________ in ___ _______to ______ and _______ and __ ____ follow the syntax of a sentence.”
I am not kidding.
I feared for being able to stay in my profession as a computer programmer and software engineer because my ability to follow syntax and logic so deteriorated.
So I must confess (and I am being straight forward honest here) I cannot follow the meaning of your post.
Can you explain at least this last paragraph. Or at least the sentence “It is not defined by definition itself.” I am somewhat confused, or, I guess more accurately totally confused.
Thank you.
PS
I took the training in Ruhi Book One as best I could understand it to mean that no one in the Baha’i Faith is now allowed to have an opinion on anything at all. ONLY the UHJ is permitted to have an opinion on anything. Only their “elucidations” count. Period. End of discussion. If anyone in the Faith is discovered to have an opinion on anything at all it is to be reported so a file can be opened on them in Haifa so they can be watched as a potential trouble maker. What any individual thinks does not count. And to put forth any individual opinion makes yo the “enemy of God”. I don’t see how critical thought of any kind can exist in such a controlling culture. But maybe my tutor went too far overboard? I don’t know. Do tutors have to take psychological tests to be certified to be given the power to give the course?
You know it is kind of predictable that no one really gave any merit to my intuition that the actual bloodline lives in Iran. Here you folks, or at least some of you as Bahà’í’s, actually believe this is the word of God for this day and run from the sources seed. What does that say? It speaks for itself. I am quite disturbed obviously about the subject and the lack of information as to WHY this is makes it even worse. With new info each day, maybe someone’s hand written memories at the time will define what the actual break down was and I’ll locate one of those unanswered questions…
Folks what is so funny to me is who this room makes me think of the movie Network with Peter Finch, “I’m mad as hell” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dib2-HBsF08 , there are so many good scenes but I think this one is one of my particular favorites, “there is no democracy” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzSj1yNZdY8&feature=related , I believe it is even truer to this day.
Bird
Spanish-speaking people search for “fe bahai”, which means “bahai faith”. They don’t search just the word “bahai”.
“fe bahai” ranks Chile as numero uno, followed by Brazil and Spain.
Craig Parke stated:
Craig, thank you for your honest reply. If I may comment on the first quote highlighted above; when I said critical thinking is not defined by definition, I meant that the process of critical thinking is fluid and cannot be condensed into what one believes it should be. It is an evolution of thought based upon many things and its “weight” is, in part, determined by the subject. We cannot “critically think” about the makeup of God, but only the manifestations of what is presented to us. We can, therefore, critically think about something, as an example, called “love”. Not what we believe it to be, but truly what God means it to be. The thought evolves and we consider carefully and deeply about what it means with the current knowledge we possess. Perhaps that is why there have been some many essays on the subject by many authors - critical thinking not by prior definition, but rather by acknowledging other thought processes and combining one’s own with others.
Now to comment on the other quote seen above; yes, it is true, BUT not as you intend it. When there are people who attempt schism, that action is reported and ambassadors are sent to ascertain the validity of such. At that point actions are taken to communicate what the Writings say but if that has no effect then the particulars of the event are taken to the UHJ. “Normal” thought by individuals, thoughts that do not attempt to instigate schism, are fully allowed and debated. If one has the question, one can ask and expect reasonable reactions. The Faith is open to, and encourages, debate. That you must acknowledge from your own studies. Debate is, in my opinion, even more open than Christianity or Islam as viewed from historical observations. Should one have a question one can always write the UHJ and request an answer. When that is done, the request goes to a special investigative branch where they research the writings and issue a reply using those writings. I have done this and was amazed at the thought and completeness of their reply. Now, should the subject not be answered directly from within the Baha’i Holy writings, then the UHJ will give their opinion and direction. By doing this process the Faith becomes dynamic and allows for change according to the needs of the time. Remember, everything is based upon the Writings, so that final characteristic of direction will never change and the “politics” that have historically plagued religion will not exist within those opinions.
I hope I’ve answered your statements in a form you can understand. Should you wish further continuance, just write.
Hi TerrB,
Critical thinking involves being able to think logically and honestly, knowing what is proven by evidence, what is fabrication or wishful thinking, and what is unsubstantiated, and understanding limitations or exceptions. I would argue it can be applied to any subject, including “the make up of God”.
I would argue the opposite, we can always think about “love” and what we believe it to be, but we’ll never understand what God truly means it to be as that would require comprehending God and infinite knowledge. Seeing as we will never know whether or not God exists, just what we believe or take on faith, and our brains are only finite, understanding what God truly means anything to be is an impossible task.
Would someone find an organization - commercial, religious, educational, governmental, etc. - that one can not make the same complaints about?
———————
The difference is that these organizations don’t pretend to be perfect and straight from God; unless of course they are fundamentalist religious ones. So in these other organizations there is some room for dissent or you can pick up and go to another organization. Where do people go outside of the Bahai community? Some little screwed up splinter group? What’s sad is that take a religion like Catholicism. At the top hierarchy it is very much like the Bahai AO. But Catholics at grass-roots levels have learned to be more open/liberal regardless of the Vatican. And somehow, the Vatican has some tolerance of all this. YET in the official Bahai Faith there is absolutely no tolerance. As you SF have shown.
I now understand what you meant. Thank you for your clarification.
Grover wrote:
Are you really arguing the opposite? Was it stated that we will know what love is, or was it stated that critical thinking was the process of the attempt? Shortly after the part you’ve quoted I’ve suggested it is the process of adaptation of knowledge. Is that really “opposite”?
You’ve made the statement that “we will never know whether or not God exists”. How is it possible to state an infinite belief (”never”) based on ones present and finite knowledge of today? You, yourself admit that our capabilities are finite (”our brains are only finite”) so to state an infinite seems to be at odds with your stated belief.
I agree that the idea of “understanding what God truly means” seems impossible from our present view, but it seems to me that the spiritual gifts of knowledge may be fuller once we leave these bodies. (As my “proof” of what we have after “death” is rather nebulas and relies on “hear say” from religious writings, I realize this view is subject to debate.) I would suggest that we will know the qualities of God, such as “love”, but will never comprehend the essence, or make-up of God. How can the created understand the essence of the creator?
Yes, good point. Although I’ve found that when people know very little, the keyword remains “bahai”. The correct terminology, or perhaps better put, the Baha’i vernacular is “Baha’i Faith” however, others may simply say Baha’i, Baha’ism, Baha’i religion, etc. As you can see, the keyword “fe bahai” is not used at all in Chile. Or maybe I’m missing something?
SF, none of us are without bias or agenda simply by virtue of being human. I have my bias, you have yours and I assume my parakeet hers. I “pretend” to be about truth as hard as the next person, or maybe a tiny bit harder. In the end, that remains for ultimate judgement.
If what I write is offensive or repellent to you, you are certainly free to choose to stop reading. For the record, I welcome your feedback.
Hi TerrB,