What do you think is better and more honest? A clean sanitised version of the Faith or a warts and all version? I think I prefer the warts and all version. Everyone has the right to know what goes on in the Faith so they can make an informed choice and so when they go teaching the Faith to others, they are honest about the status of the Faith.

Is it really spiritually corrosive to see the darker side of the Faith? What is spirituality anyway? Like I said before, I would say a spiritual person is someone who has mastered the base side of their nature, is honest, trustworthy, and helpful, has a sense of the divine and a close feeling of association with the departed in the afterlife. All Peter Khan is worried about is people turning away from the Faith or getting put off. All he cares about is conversion and retention. If thats the case, he really should address all the Baha’i fanatics that routinely swamp the solitary non-Baha’i at Baha’i events and give them the Baha’i bash.

The UHJ could take a systems approach to some of the problems within the Faith like business and industry does instead of playing the blame game (i.e. its all the believer’s fault, they’re not believing enough, they don’t love Baha’u'llah enough, they’re not faithful enough, they’re not spiritual enough, they’re not deepened enough, or they’re not firm enough in the Covenant). If there is a problem in industry there is a problem with the system and they try and address that problem by instituting appropriate changes or additions to the system. Sometimes it gets a bit silly, for example when someone comes in drunk to a processing plant and gets themselves killed, there isn’t a lot you can do apart from mandatory alcohol testing before they enter the door and putting up a ridiculous amount of safety equipment. Maybe if the UHJ took the stance “perhaps the person does have a legitimate gripe, what can we do to fix the problem?” you wouldn’t have all the grumbling on the internet.

Why is it that business, through evolution, natural selection and academic research, has advanced far beyond the Baha’i Faith in terms of people and systems management, when the Faith has the “pure word” all the way from God himself and the infallible guidance of the UHJ?

Another approach that could be taken with the Faith instead of doctrinal purity is letting everyone cherry pick and interpret for themselves. Its a scientific approach to any phenomena, people will pick a theory from a plethora of possibilities, one that can be tested, sounds the best, and provides good insight into the problem. Eventually science and scientific community comes to the truth of the matter. Why not do the same for the Faith? We have a set of guidelines, eventually people will come round if the guidelines and official interpretations are workable and provide the best explanation. Why structure everything to death so that evolution is impossible?

What do you think is better and more honest? A clean sanitised version of the Faith or a warts and all version? I think I prefer the warts and all version. Everyone has the right to know what goes on in the Faith so they can make an informed choice and so when they go teaching the Faith to others, they are honest about the status of the Faith.

Is it really spiritually corrosive to see the darker side of the Faith? What is spirituality anyway? Like I said before, I would say a spiritual person is someone who has mastered the base side of their nature, is honest, trustworthy, and helpful, has a sense of the divine and a close feeling of association with the departed in the afterlife. All Peter Khan is worried about is people turning away from the Faith or getting put off. All he cares about is conversion and retention. If thats the case, he really should address all the Baha’i fanatics that routinely swamp the solitary non-Baha’i at Baha’i events and give them the Baha’i bash.

The UHJ could take a systems approach to some of the problems within the Faith like business and industry does instead of playing the blame game (i.e. its all the believer’s fault, they’re not believing enough, they don’t love Baha’u'llah enough, they’re not faithful enough, they’re not spiritual enough, they’re not deepened enough, or they’re not firm enough in the Covenant). If there is a problem in industry there is a problem with the system and they try and address that problem by instituting appropriate changes or additions to the system. Sometimes it gets a bit silly, for example when someone comes in drunk to a processing plant and gets themselves killed, there isn’t a lot you can do apart from mandatory alcohol testing before they enter the door and putting up a ridiculous amount of safety equipment. Maybe if the UHJ took the stance “perhaps the person does have a legitimate gripe, what can we do to fix the problem?” you wouldn’t have all the grumbling on the internet.

Why is it that business, through evolution, natural selection and academic research, has advanced far beyond the Baha’i Faith in terms of people and systems management, when the Faith has the “pure word” all the way from God himself and the infallible guidance of the UHJ?

Another approach that could be taken with the Faith instead of doctrinal purity is letting everyone cherry pick and interpret for themselves. Its a scientific approach to any phenomena, people will pick a theory from a plethora of possibilities, one that can be tested, sounds the best, and provides good insight into the problem. Eventually science and scientific community comes to the truth of the matter. Why not do the same for the Faith? We have a set of guidelines, eventually people will come round if the guidelines and official interpretations are workable and provide the best explanation. Why structure everything to death so that evolution is impossible?

[quote post="518"]Dr. Khan would say that esoteric interpretation in the Bahai Faith is forbidden.[/quote]

What is meant by esoteric? If he is meaning dreams and visions, didn’t the early Babis have a lot of these? Sometimes insights to any matter or problem can come through dreams, but if you’re thinking you’re being divinely guided and everyone should give credance to your vision etc, you should probably think again.

[quote post="518"]Douglas Martins statement something to the effect that “conscience is a dangerous delusion”, his point being that using conscience as a reason to disobey the UHJ has no place in Bahai practice or rationale. [/quote]

Conscience is the reason we got into the Faith in the first place, we were using our intuition, intellect, or it just felt good. If we used our conscience to get us into the Faith, there is no reason why it can’t get us out again when things are happening that make us go “hang on!”. Douglas Martin can think again if I’ll put the UHJ ahead of my conscience.

[quote post="518"]Doctrinal purity is a cohesive force in any organization or society [/quote]

Its only cohesive so long as you agree with the doctrine being expounded. In science we know that there are no real absolutes, just shades of grey and interpretations of phenomena depending on tools used, results gained, and the person doing the interpreting. Why not take a relativistic approach to Baha’i doctrine as well?

[quote post="518"]Its a persian name that begins with M, Mome or something like that. But their statement was in some summary work about the Bahai Faith that “all mystical experience in the new religion has been institutionalized in the assemblies”. I wish I could find the quote, but it strikes me as excessively biased in favor of the institutional structure as opposed to the capacity of individuals to experience anything of a mystical nature, which I think anyone who has had a mystical experience will see on the face is patently false. [/quote]

Not Moojan Momen was it? I must confess, sometimes when I’ve met with the NSA and LSA, the feeling was almost mystical. Was that a psychological response to the situation or the feeling of there being something divine happening? Who knows? But I’ve also had personal mystical experiences at the shrines, temples and in churches, the feeling of being close to the divine. So I agree wholeheartedly, the institutions do not have a monopoly on mystical experience. Its like saying the only people who can talk to God on your behalf are the Catholic priests.

[quote post="518"]Another thought regarding critical mass of consciousness, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, may Gods Grace fall upon Him forever and ever(my sincere and personal wish expressed therein and not any kind of formal devoteeish thing – as I truly respect him and his work He is a saint), often pointed out that the square root of one percent of the worlds population was all that was necessary to effect a transformation of consciousness in the entire world. It comes to about 7 or 8000 people I think. That is what they practice when they have their group meditations in the TM movement.[/quote]

You’re thinking about the phenomena of morphic resonance, where new ideas or skills get easier to comprehend or learn as more and more people have adopted it or learnt it previously. Interesting idea, it suggests that we’re all linked or part of one great conscience. Its one that I really like.

Re Peter Khan, re the need for people of capacity:

[quote post="518"]Second reason is the fact that the world is in a bigger mess than it was some years ago, which means our administrative bodies have to deal with far more complex problems than ever before. [/quote]

How anyone say the world is in a bigger mess today than what it was in World War II? Anyone who knows their history knows that was a shitter of a time, let alone during the cold war with the nuke threat. Its pretty peaceful these days, except when old George Bush and certain radical Muslims are busy stirring the pot. Its all kind of like the Jehova’s witnesses coming knocking on your door asking “do you think the world is getting worse today?”. Of course not!

Its also interesting that he is wanting people of capacity when the institutions have pissed off anyone with some semblance of capacity (which usually means they’re independent thinkers).

Regarding drifting away from the Faith, I don’t think the price is high at all, provided your motives are pure. Only you can know that and God upstairs, if we get judged when we die as the writings say we do (I’m kind of suspecting now it’ll all be quite different to what any writings say).

[quote post="518"]I would say: Daily conscientious reflection on our acts and motives is one effective way. Meditation which we have discussed recently. Prayer. Recitation of the Writings. Service. Consultation. Teaching. Extreme loving kindness to all beings. That is the Bahai life. That was Abdul Baha’s life. He did not seek status or followers of himself, or personal wealth at someone elses expense.[/quote]

Indeed, but I would say wisdom comes from many sources, not just Baha’i writings. E.g. Yoda and Luke Skywalker: Yoda, “Judge me by my size would you?” Luke, “No” Yoda, “And well you should not. Luminous beings are we, not this crude flesh.” Lets thank his holiness George Lucas or his writers for that wonderful piece of wisdom! What about the epic fantasies such as Lord of the Rings, or David Gemmell’s novels and their commentary on bravery, courage, strength of character and hope.

[quote post="518"]I learnt from the danger of that approach, and how important it is for us as Bahá’ís not to compartmentalise our thinking.[/quote]

I have to compartmentalise all the time. The Baha’i writings on evolution are absolutely hopeless and out of date. Scientific evidence available is sufficient to disprove them.

Must dash! Great stuff!

[quote post="518"]Dr. Khan would say that esoteric interpretation in the Bahai Faith is forbidden.[/quote]

What is meant by esoteric? If he is meaning dreams and visions, didn’t the early Babis have a lot of these? Sometimes insights to any matter or problem can come through dreams, but if you’re thinking you’re being divinely guided and everyone should give credance to your vision etc, you should probably think again.

[quote post="518"]Douglas Martins statement something to the effect that “conscience is a dangerous delusion”, his point being that using conscience as a reason to disobey the UHJ has no place in Bahai practice or rationale. [/quote]

Conscience is the reason we got into the Faith in the first place, we were using our intuition, intellect, or it just felt good. If we used our conscience to get us into the Faith, there is no reason why it can’t get us out again when things are happening that make us go “hang on!”. Douglas Martin can think again if I’ll put the UHJ ahead of my conscience.

[quote post="518"]Doctrinal purity is a cohesive force in any organization or society [/quote]

Its only cohesive so long as you agree with the doctrine being expounded. In science we know that there are no real absolutes, just shades of grey and interpretations of phenomena depending on tools used, results gained, and the person doing the interpreting. Why not take a relativistic approach to Baha’i doctrine as well?

[quote post="518"]Its a persian name that begins with M, Mome or something like that. But their statement was in some summary work about the Bahai Faith that “all mystical experience in the new religion has been institutionalized in the assemblies”. I wish I could find the quote, but it strikes me as excessively biased in favor of the institutional structure as opposed to the capacity of individuals to experience anything of a mystical nature, which I think anyone who has had a mystical experience will see on the face is patently false. [/quote]

Not Moojan Momen was it? I must confess, sometimes when I’ve met with the NSA and LSA, the feeling was almost mystical. Was that a psychological response to the situation or the feeling of there being something divine happening? Who knows? But I’ve also had personal mystical experiences at the shrines, temples and in churches, the feeling of being close to the divine. So I agree wholeheartedly, the institutions do not have a monopoly on mystical experience. Its like saying the only people who can talk to God on your behalf are the Catholic priests.

[quote post="518"]Another thought regarding critical mass of consciousness, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, may Gods Grace fall upon Him forever and ever(my sincere and personal wish expressed therein and not any kind of formal devoteeish thing – as I truly respect him and his work He is a saint), often pointed out that the square root of one percent of the worlds population was all that was necessary to effect a transformation of consciousness in the entire world. It comes to about 7 or 8000 people I think. That is what they practice when they have their group meditations in the TM movement.[/quote]

You’re thinking about the phenomena of morphic resonance, where new ideas or skills get easier to comprehend or learn as more and more people have adopted it or learnt it previously. Interesting idea, it suggests that we’re all linked or part of one great conscience. Its one that I really like.

Re Peter Khan, re the need for people of capacity:

[quote post="518"]Second reason is the fact that the world is in a bigger mess than it was some years ago, which means our administrative bodies have to deal with far more complex problems than ever before. [/quote]

How anyone say the world is in a bigger mess today than what it was in World War II? Anyone who knows their history knows that was a shitter of a time, let alone during the cold war with the nuke threat. Its pretty peaceful these days, except when old George Bush and certain radical Muslims are busy stirring the pot. Its all kind of like the Jehova’s witnesses coming knocking on your door asking “do you think the world is getting worse today?”. Of course not!

Its also interesting that he is wanting people of capacity when the institutions have pissed off anyone with some semblance of capacity (which usually means they’re independent thinkers).

Regarding drifting away from the Faith, I don’t think the price is high at all, provided your motives are pure. Only you can know that and God upstairs, if we get judged when we die as the writings say we do (I’m kind of suspecting now it’ll all be quite different to what any writings say).

[quote post="518"]I would say: Daily conscientious reflection on our acts and motives is one effective way. Meditation which we have discussed recently. Prayer. Recitation of the Writings. Service. Consultation. Teaching. Extreme loving kindness to all beings. That is the Bahai life. That was Abdul Baha’s life. He did not seek status or followers of himself, or personal wealth at someone elses expense.[/quote]

Indeed, but I would say wisdom comes from many sources, not just Baha’i writings. E.g. Yoda and Luke Skywalker: Yoda, “Judge me by my size would you?” Luke, “No” Yoda, “And well you should not. Luminous beings are we, not this crude flesh.” Lets thank his holiness George Lucas or his writers for that wonderful piece of wisdom! What about the epic fantasies such as Lord of the Rings, or David Gemmell’s novels and their commentary on bravery, courage, strength of character and hope.

[quote post="518"]I learnt from the danger of that approach, and how important it is for us as Bahá’ís not to compartmentalise our thinking.[/quote]

I have to compartmentalise all the time. The Baha’i writings on evolution are absolutely hopeless and out of date. Scientific evidence available is sufficient to disprove them.

Must dash! Great stuff!

As a big fan of the great Robert G.L. Waite, I am very much tempted to write a psychoanalytic analysis of the KMAN’s very telling public speeches all now laid out in living color on the Internet. In his endless personal opinions on every topic imaginable they are all an extremely public veritable Rorschach Ink Blot Test of this man’s very soul. An absolutely fascinating revelation of where the Institutions of the BF are a little over four decades in since getting to the Cosmic Exodus Moment.

The Baha’i Faith is now headed for a Joseph Conrad moment right out of “Heart of Darkness”. It is fascinating.

As a big fan of the great Robert G.L. Waite, I am very much tempted to write a psychoanalytic analysis of the KMAN’s very telling public speeches all now laid out in living color on the Internet. In his endless personal opinions on every topic imaginable they are all an extremely public veritable Rorschach Ink Blot Test of this man’s very soul. An absolutely fascinating revelation of where the Institutions of the BF are a little over four decades in since getting to the Cosmic Exodus Moment.

The Baha’i Faith is now headed for a Joseph Conrad moment right out of “Heart of Darkness”. It is fascinating.

As such, he dooms bahai to backwardness.

Nothing he says gives the impression that he understands the real extent or nature of the problems within bahai culture.

Khan, the other UHJ members, the UHJ itself and its letter writers, have mostly said the same incomprehensible stuff for several decades since the “Dialogue Magazine” fiasco. They correctly, but incompletely, diagnose the ills of “liberalism”, “secularism”, etc., while failing to recognise the slide of 99% of the rest of bahai culture into far worse conditions.

It is simply maddening that they can’t see how obvious their own incompetence is to the rest of the world.

Khan is just babbling the usual mantra of bureaucratic reinvention of failed plans, ideas, paradigms without any concrete connection to the memory of how meaning has been constructed within bahai culture.

The “disconnect” between what Khan is presenting and the reality of a massive patten of dysfunctionality within the bahai system is stunning.

The reality is that bahai itself is its own worst enemy. Khan is just like all the other people that make stupid excuses for a system of belief that has collapsed and has become pervasively toxic to real change (for the better).

In order for any solution to work, the problem has to be examined in an unvarnished manner. Khan instead is worried about the balance between “saving face” (showing respect for decripit thinkers) and “dissent”.

Same old matra of “us vs. them”.

I’ve personally seen the BWC rescue “nondangerous” bahai nonconformists from vicious attacks by fundamentalists. The only reason it happened is because of the “special” relationships involved, not because the bahai system is capable of systematic correction of abuses of authority.

SF – I am very concerned that what I’ve seen happen to so many bright, well-meaning people who try to assume the best, and think that pushing reforms (new ideas) through the bahai system is possible and a good idea, will happen to you. I hope I’m wrong, but everything I’ve seen says that the probability of you being allowed to make anything other than very minor, insignificant change is almost ZERO.

The more likely scenario is that you will be marginalized. If you “get uppity” and push something against the “powers that be”, you will be targeted for an attack.

Even if you survive such an attack, you will be so emotionally destroyed over the fact that your pure spiritual contribution to the advancement of civilization was turned into someone’s sick little game of sociopathic power manipulation that you may not be able to sustain your interest in throwing more pearls before the swine.

There is a long list of egregious examples of abuse of authority within bahai that I’ve heard of, or seen. One pure woman was railroaded into CB status in the 60s/70s simply because her music was better than someone that had a relative on the NSA who could not stand the competition.

Most bahais here turned their backs on the “CB” for decades.

Upon her death, the BWC investigated the incident, and posthumously reinstated her membership/”good standing”, etc.

The “perpetrators” (in the AO) were gone, or went unpunished.

Disgusting and appalling.

No one will ever remember.

This is the problem when a system has no real accountability.

Regards,
ep