Is the Universal House of Justice Infallible? (part II)

My first post about the infallibility of the House of Justice got quite a lot of comments. To all who read and contributed: Thank you! I’m indebted to you all for your thoughts and ideas. Some comments where short, some were long, some were quite funny (unintentionally) while others were surprisingly deep and insightful.

Here is a concise summary the most important points made:

For some the concept of infallibility was quite literal, while others took a more nuanced approach. Some tried to separate the ‘intellectual’ sphere with the ‘spiritual’ or ‘divine’ sphere, saying that I should use more faith and less brains. A few suggested that this whole thing was simply a ruse to incite unity and that it really didn’t matter otherwise. Others seemed to be saying that one must simply believe that the House of Justice is infallible and by believing so they are.

house of justice infaliblility.png

I’d like to answer those who request me to stop asking so many damned questions and just believe. First of all, I am truly sorry that you are missing one of the most important and cherished characteristics of the Baha’i Faith: independant investigation of truth. And further, I’m saddened that you have not been able to cast aside the Shi’ite tradition of taqlid (blind imitation). Baha’u'llah forbids all Baha’is from this Muslim tradition saying that we must ‘see with our own eyes’ and ‘hear with our own ears’. If we just accept what we are told and follow a presented path unquestioningly, we are not Baha’is.

The Baha’i Faith and questions go together like peanut butter and jam. Why else would there be a whole month devoted to them?

To those who asked me in their comments to not use logic or intellect, I say: Are you kidding? In the Baha’i faith science and religion are both lauded as paths to truth. One is not superior nor subservient to the other. A true Baha’i would never deny logic, critical thinking and simple deduction because it might conflict with religious dogma. That is the slippery slope of superstition. Thanks, but no thanks. In fact, the history of the Faith is replete with examples where simple logic and deduction was used as an effective teaching tool.

One of my favourite examples is that used by a simple Baha’i blacksmith to open the eyes of a learned Mulla who then went on to become a Baha’i and was titled by Abdu’l-Baha, Mirza Abul-Fadl (the Father of All Learning). The story involves rain, angels and dogs. If you don’t know it, do yourself a favour and read his wiki entry.

While discussing this interesting topic over on Talisman (the venerable Baha’i discussion forum), one contributor provided this insight:

The acquired infallibility concerns the final product, not the decision making process. IMO, confusing the final product and the process is where you and others go wrong on this issue.

As I said before, the guarantee for being error free refers to the final product and not to the process no matter what the steps of the process may be called.

This is similar to other responses that I received from fellow Baha’is. Basically, they are saying that the UHJ receives guidance from God and so their decisions are protected from error. That is why they are infallible and do not make mistakes. Not because they are omniscient but because, as Dawud put it (in the comments section of the first post) they have “God whispering in their collective ear”. Or as the above contributor on Talisman put it, the process isn’t important, the final product is.

This is a curious sort of logic for me to wrap my mind around. It could very well be that my mind is shrivelled up and simply not as ‘wrappable’ as it once was. But nevertheless, please permit me to explain why I find this explanation wanting.

If we assume that the ‘process’ isn’t important, then it does neatly side-step the requirement of omniscience that I mentioned. That is a clear advantage that it presents. However, its natural corollary presents us with an insurmountable challenge.

For if we assume that the process isn’t important but rather the final outcome, then the natural conclusion is to simplify the process as much as we can; especially considering the amount of time and resources that it can require.
house of justice ball.png
One especially mischevious person might even suggest that the process be simplified to a Magic 8 ball. Whenever the House of Justice needs to come to an infallible decision, all they have to do is to jiggle the Magic 8 Ball and then to read its answer. If we believe that God’s hand currently directs the UHJ to the infallible decision, then if would follow that God’s hand would direct the Magic 8 ball to an infallible decision also.
house of justice dart
If you are not familiar with a Magic 8 ball, another option is a dart and wall system. Presumably, answers could be taped to a wall with a blindfolded and spun UHJ member launching sharp projectiles in the general direction of the ‘answer wall’ while the other 8 duck for their lives under the table. Since God has bestowed infallibility upon the final outcome, He will guide the dart to produce the proper answer (and avoid innocent bystanders).

Now, you might laugh at these silly processes. But all I am doing is going by the the logic that the process isn’t important but rather that the outcome is.

I hope that by now it is clear that the process by which a decision is made is quite important. I would say critical in fact, to the end result. And as a natural extension, the information used in the process also has a strong correlation to the quality of the decision.

It would seem that the House of Justice itself might agree with such an assertion:

Like the Guardian, the House of Justice wants to be provided with facts when called upon to render a decision, and like him it may well change its decision when new facts emerge.
(Universal House of Justice — August 22, 1977)

That seems like good old fashioned common sense, doesn’t it?

But can the Universal House of Justice make a mistake? Well, if they are not omniscient and depend on the quality of information presented to them like the rest of us mortals, then it would naturally follow that that is a possibility.

But there is also a clue in this quote that Sen provided in the comments section:

“The Guardian… is bound to insist upon a reconsideration by them (the UHJ) of any enactment he conscientiously believes to conflict with the meaning and to depart from the spirit of Bahá’u’lláh’s revealed utterances.”
(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 150)

And as Sen pointed out:

So the UHJ can be wrong in a deeper sense than just making a mistake. It may be leading in the wrong direction, departing from “the spirit of Bahá’u’lláh’s revealed utterances.” So can anyone else — Shoghi Effendi’s words are not an invitation to stand on the soapbox of our own certainties, rather they indicate the need for humility for everyone.

I would add that what Shoghi Effendi is saying is rather alarming and it is not readily understood by most Baha’is. To me, he is saying that not only can the UHJ make a mistake, it can in fact go against the very essence of Baha’u'llah’s teachings. This is quite a dire sort of situation he describes. Of course, he is saying this in the context of the responsability of the Guardian in balancing the authority and power of the House of Justice.

And as you know, we do not have a Guardian. So that position is left unfilled and his responsabilities and duties left unfulfilled.

Related posts:

  1. Is the Universal House of Justice Infallible?
  2. Meet the New Universal House of Justice
  3. Universal House of Justice: Ridvan Message 2010
  4. Universal House of Justice Letter on Baha’i Elections
  5. Universal House of Justice: Ridvan Message 2009

  • Fubar

    Bias disclosure: I’m an ex-bahai.

    Yes, you can be a bahai and not agree with either the basic doctrine of infallible religious leaders, or the current (corrupt) “interpretation” of what that means in haifan bahaism.

    *However* You need to be very quiet about your disagreement if you wish to not be attacked within haifan bahai culture.

  • Fubar

    re: “treachery and waywardness”

    This is classical Jungian Shadow (psychological mirror).

    In reality bahai administration is guilty of “treachery and waywardness” in that is has abandoned large areas of the principles and ethics of the religion.

  • Fubar

    A practical consideration: What UHJ in 1910 would have dared to contradict abdul-baha? None.

    If it had, abdul-bahai would have immediately begun to work behind the scenes to make sure that in the next election that some other group of people ended up on the UHJ.

  • Wahid Azal

    “As a Bahai in good standing?” Since when? You are on record claiming you resigned from Bahaism a while ago?

  • Craig Parke

    Wahid,

    Happy New Year! May you find a good woman this year and calm the f*** down in life.

    Best to you!

    Craig

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH-_9cwdLug

  • Wahid Azal

    Craig,

    Inferring from your typical Bahaiesque slight of hand reasoning, does that mean at your age you still haven’t found a good woman?! That said, maybe DHS should consider hiring me for keeping tabs on all the bullsh*t you people spin, and forgetting where you spun it, while tripping all over yourselves.

    Saw Zepparella
    live some years ago. Good cover band!

    Ron Paul 2012!

  • Craig Parke

    Wahid,

    You are a brilliant man and I wish you well in all things. I really do. You deserve to be happy. My beautiful and highly intelligent woman passed away 12 years ago (she spoke 7 languages). A good woman is a very great blessing in this world. My current writing partner is 19 years younger than me.

    Life is good.

    Love Zepparella too! I am in touch with this below band regarding my current film script.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F50uPTeI7RM

    Supernal!

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBOjNoVsXNo

    Instead of Ruhi Book 69 the Baha’is should be getting rock guitar and acting lessons to get some real chops in life now that Peter Khan has gone to the Great Beyond. Death is indeed the greatest rapid weight loss diet plan.

    So it goes.

    Best to you for 2012!

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    Craig

    For assorted reasons, I am generally suspicious of the whole sub-culture of so-called Bahai liberals/unenrolleds because when push has come to shove they/you are really shills of the system playing at being “loyal opposition’ (a term Juan Cole, a CIA shill, actually once used in relation to his criticisms of the BAO).  This is why I keep my eyes on this whole bloc of individuals in cyberspace to the same degree my associates and I keep our eyes fixed on the assorted linkages, connections and networks of the BAO with the globalist corporatocracy (see the assorted articles on Sourcewatch recently connecting high profile Bahais to Goldman Sachs and the US defense contracting industry, etc). The US military-industrial complex and Goldman Sachs, to quote Max Keiser, are “pure scum,” as I am sure you would agree.

    So when you come here and say you are a BIGS (Bahai In Good Standing), when I have full knowledge with documentary evidence of the fact that you are on record saying you are not, my flags go right up! I hope you understand. We’re just trying to keep all the assorted and proverbial Bahai Bastards online honest here by aiding in a quality control process of keeping to consistent narratives.

    That said, through hard knocks I have learned to keep my women out of the political causes I am involved with, whether it be trying to keep Bahais honest, Occupy Wall Street or educating the general public about the vices of cheerleading Western governments’ genocidal policies in the Global South.

    Happy 2012 to you too! Here’s toasting to the end of the American Empire with its ZioNazi colonial outpost in the Mid East!!
     

  • Craig Parke

    Wahid,

    This is probably my last post ever on Baha’i Rants. It is time to leave the limited pettiness of the Baha’i Faith all behind. It is meaningless to stay in it and it is meaningless to resign from it. I am a BIGS that just stopped participating in it anymore eight years ago after decades of dedicated service. There are much bigger fish on this planet now in much deeper currents. I served it for decades with all my heart but It all failed miserably because it went into the hands of a cult of lifetime incumbent sociopaths who micromanaged everything into the ground. This tiny cult of lifetime incumbent professional administrators burned the field’s of good people’s hearts, and sewed the Earth of their beating hearts with salt. There is nothing that can be done now.

    They were strangely impaired souls who took something very big and made it very small. They took something that was to be bottom up and made it top down. But the World will go on.

    A new World Age is being born and a New Civilization will come born out of mind bending stupidity and calamity. But the Baha’is will never be players in any of it.

    I knew many very good souls that tried with everything they had in it but the chops just weren’t there in how it all went. The BAO is a very small club and the rank and file aren’t in it.

    It is an embarrassment to even post anymore on the dissident sites. It is time to move on in life with what gives beauty and truth in the Cosmic Journey. That is enough to bring Great Joy in life!

    You are a brilliant man! I wish you well!

    Craig

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    I hope you are right that a new civilization worthy of  the name is being born. But until and unless the Anglo-American/Zionist corporocratic stranglehold on the planet is smashed to pieces – which eventually it will be – that new civilization may be nothing other than an Orwellian National Security State where citizens around the world are all suspects in the NWO’s/America’s paranoid globalist imperial ventures where they could be indefinitely detained without charge and where the whole planet, including the USA, is a battlefield (i.e. NDAA). This is the world of GMO foods which are deliberately grown to make populations sick, where Monsanto now owns Blackwater, and where carbon taxes are paid to governments that then turn around and line the pockets of the big corporations who set up the scam to begin with. This is the world of offshore tax havens in Delaware, the City of London and the Cayman Islands where the filthy rich literally steal trillions and then bring down entire economies while getting the taxpayer to pay for bogus national bailouts that have destroyed and impoverished the middle class. This is the world where German Bahai-connected quack psychiatrists act as public lobbyists for filthy-rich sickos who are out to legalize pedophilia, etc. And on and on it goes. In short, this is the world – where in the words of one pundit – national governments are mere figureheads and Goldman Sachs rules the world – in other words, a feudalism by money, the rule of Mammon.

    Bahaism has been responsible in helping erect this world and bringing it here because they have been in bed with the criminal globalists, the international banksters and fraudsters (i.e. the Maurice Strongs, the Clubs of Rome, etc) who have brought us to this Brave New World.  This is what your adherence to this cult and support for its globalism has helped create.

  • Craig Parke

    I am just glad to finally be free of the Abrahamic religions Wahid. I tried but I just ca’t take another step in any of them. I leave them to the peoples of the Brillo pad pubic hair. It is their heritage and they can keep it. The karma upon the first nations of Mankind is just too terrible to bear. I’m done.

    Good-bye all. Good night and good luck among the suicide bombers of the Earth.

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    Neither the Abrahamic religions nor First Nation peoples have had anything to do with creating the Brave New World of  the NDAA national security state, endless war for profit, multinational corporatocracies raping the planet and hijacking government, genetically modified foods and Monsanto, Blackwater, Goldman Sachs, etc. etc. etc.

    Lay the blame where it should be put: elitist greed and crony capitalism that uses, abuses, twists and discards all religions and ideologies at will.

    Be that as it may, we are now living in the NWO the Bahais so tirelessly helped create. Like what you see? If not, this is where Baha’u'llah has led the world: a nasty, brutal corporate, neo-feudalist hyper-militarized and totalitarian super-state!

  • Craig Parke

    You are living in a dream Wahid! Would that the Baha’is had THAT kind of power to ever be players in the World at ANY level either for good or evil. “Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?” The Baha’is most definitely did NOT create this present world. They have no power in the World.  Absolutely zero! The Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith and everyone in it at every level would be eaten for lunch by Goldman Sachs without a thought. I just read Lisa Endlich’s 1999 book. BOTH the circumcised AND uncircumcised among them are entirely up to creating pure carnage on Earth themselves thank you very much! Very formidable people! And lots of karmic Brillo pad in action if you catch my drift and they just keep getting better at the game.

    On the other hand the Administrative Order of the Baha’i Faith could not run a shift on a drive through at McDonalds! NOBODY would get their order straight at all. Ketchup and mustard would be way too complex as concepts to handle. People of competence in life in any line of endeavor are not welcome in the current top down group think Ruhiized version of the Baha’i Faith. It may change in about 800 years but it will be far too late. Highly competent drug dealers, prostitutes, and pornographers full of love for the human experience will have done it themselves by then.

    Make no mistake. The Cosmic Powers of the World Age will go on!

    Best to you!

    Signing off!

    Craig

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zydAs5bRW1U

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    Craig, it is you who are living in la-la land — or are otherwise an apologist. If you have even an iota of fair mindedness you will go to Sourcewatch and see for yourself the confuting evidence amassed over five years from public domain material placing this cult in every circle of the globalist networks that have brought this planet to the breaking point. Yes, an organization that is allowed the kind of leverage and support and funding IsraHell and the Zionist criminals have given it has that kind of power. Take your head out and see it for yourself.

  • Craig Parke

    Wow! Thanks for the update! Jyoti Munsiff! I met her twice back in 1972! I did not know she was STILL ALIVE! She was tough as nails back then. She always wore very colorful saris. I liked her.

    Glad to see she has a paying job in the current world economic situation. I’m always glad anyone has a paying job but that could all change very fast for many especially with all those thermonuclear derivatives out there placed on European Sovereign Debt in 2012. Now if you could link Jon Corzine to some kind of UHJ World Wide Massive “Incompetence” Conspiracy you would really be onto something! 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UgwsQDOovI

    I hope you have a paying job too. I have one and I am very happy that I do.

    Wow! Thanks for this update. Much appreciated! I thought she was dead a long time ago. She just did not look so healthy back then. A little on the chubby side. But it must be good genes after all or that Ayurvedic medicine really works!

    THE TWO BEARS EXPLAIN THE COLLAPSE OF MF GLOBAL
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLt05sN7vK0&feature=youtu.be
     

  • Desir0101

    Hello Craig and Wahid,
    You both seem to be the angel of peace.

    Except than insulting the Faith of those who believe in it WHAT HAVE YOU TO PROPOSE TO THE WORLD> for it’s betterment.

  • Craig Parke

    As Cosmic Reformers both Jesus Christ and Baha’u'llah as you say “insulted” the Faith of many in the hapless degraded dumbed down cosmically clueless “religious systems” they were born into. So people who speak openly this way are in very good company.

    I propose that everyone everywhere in the the world today start to speak truth to power for starters to get the World Age on the road! Helping Truth Tellers speak truth worldwide via the Internet is what I do for a living as a software engineer. The fact that you can reply to me right here, right now, at the speed of light is because some really smart and talented people are actually doing something (gasp) useful to advance the human race with some sort of acquired skill from hard work and study rather than sitting around in endless meetings like incompetent masturbating vultures waiting for the world to commit thermonuclear suicide.

    I am also trying to get my hands on a $130 million dollar film budget to get a feature film I am writing made to help other people in this World also change their present consciousness too and become frank truth tellers where they live their lives.

    I also propose that people start learning how the current World Economic system works as the most immediately useful thing they can do in the present hour on this planet of incredibly poorly educated people. As Shoghi Effendi himself said, the Baha’i Writings other than general moral principles have no advanced teachings to shed on  economics. People have to figure it out for themselves. So I try to help with that. I speak with OWS people all the time where I live.

    THE SECRET OF OZ – Bill Still
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI

    THESE DAYS: Bill Still – 8 JULY 2011
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=VpSHzJROhfQ

    LIFE INC. – Douglas Rushkoff
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOBWhVe68os

    WEB OF DEBT – Ellen Brown (1 of 5)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU0XiklHPMc

    “THE LOST SCIENCE OF MONEY” by  Stephen A. Zarlenga
    http://old.monetary.org/lostscienceofmoney.html

    A SHORT HISTORY OF THE “MONEY POWER”
    http://www.monetary.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/32-page-brochure-sept2011.pdf

    HR-2990
    (Introduced into Congress 09/21/11 with MSM total coverage BLACKOUT…)
    http://www.monetary.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/HR-2990.pdf

    KEISER REPORT: MOBIUS STRIP OF FRAUD
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReAgkWw8ue8

    “LORDS OF FINANCE: THE BANKERS WHO BROKE THE WORLD” (1914-1939)
    http://www.amazon.com/Lords-Finance-Bankers-Broke-World/dp/159420182X

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    Begin by hanging all the bankers (starting with Goldman Sachs) and lynching every Wall Street/City of London corporate crook, in other words the entire 1%.

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    Craig, if you had cared to read the entry, your friend has also been accused of one of the biggest known ethics violations in the history of Dutch Shell. The fact that she was a senior attorney for them in the 1978/79 period (when this company invested heavily in destabilizing the Shah’s regime) also makes her an outright international criminal and corporate terrorist in my book. Jyotti Munsiff, however, is only a tip in a very large iceberg of big corporate thieves, terrorists and monsters who infest your beloved Haifan Bahai cult which you are sitting all smug claiming it powerless. Given this, it stands to reason that the containment policy of the Islamic Republic of Iran (and other Muslim countries) towards this cult is sound and the accusations that this cult are agents of foreign powers and their policies is absolutely correct.

  • Desir0101

    Hi Craig And WAhid,

    Thanks for your reply.

    Wish you all the best and courage.

  • Craig Parke

    I read it Wahid.  The Baha’is are small potatoes including Jyotti Munsiff’s best day on Earth times a million suns. The world is definitely run by a club and the Baha’is just ain’t in it. But best wishes to everyone here! Good luck to all of you on your life journeys one and all! I wish you all well!

    Signing off for good!

    Craig

  • Fubar

    http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

    1% of the world population =
    6,986,991,759 * .01 = 69,869,917
    that would be a lot of people to exterminate. The number of people making vast profits from  corporate bank scams is much smaller, maybe .03%.

    I personally think that it might be possible to indict the worst corporate criminals for treason, but it is still essentially a political extermination, which is usually not justified except as a product of a political revolution/civil war.

    Ultimately the problem has to be seen as a political failure, perhaps a failure that is characteristic of the form of “democracy” as it currently exists (really plutocracy).

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    You know, Craig, minimalism is one of the well-worn tactics of black propaganda. The corporate media engages in this sort of tactic quite regularly as do governments. This is where propagandists assume the role of a critic and then proceed to minimalize the importance and influence of what they’re criticizing.

  • Fubar

    Ok, so even if the corrupt corporatists/financiers/bankers are only .03%  (I saw this specific figure in a discussion of political reforms on a geopolitics blog stated by an “expert”), and assuming that the “1%” are only in industrial/postindustrial societies, such as North America and Europe (say 1 billion population), I still get a very large number:

    For 1.0%, .01*1,000,000,000=
    10,000,000

    For .03%, .0003*1,000,000,000=
    300,000

    The latter number is far smaller than the number killed in the great genocides of the last century, but still very large, perhaps similar to some approximations of the numbers of people killed in Iraq during the “occupation”.

  • Fubar

    the following items are linked at: http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/26538/

    Also see:

    Winner-Take-All Politics: How Washington Made the Rich Richer – and Turned Its Back on the Middle Class by Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson
     …

    The real beneficiaries of the
    explosion in income for top earners since the 1970s has been not the top
    1 per cent but the top 0.1 per cent of the general population.  Since
    1974, the share of national income of the top 0.1 per cent of Americans
    has grown from 2.7 to 12.3 per cent of the total, a truly mind-boggling
    level of redistribution from the have-nots to the haves.

    Who are these people?  As Hacker and Pierson note, they are ‘not, for
    the most part, superstars and celebrities in the arts, entertainment
    and sports.  Nor are they rentiers, living off their accumulated wealth,
    as was true in the early part of the last century.  A
    substantial majority are company executives and managers, and a growing
    share of these are financial company executives and managers.’

    What took place in the 1980s was therefore an extension of the Carter
    years, not a reversal of them.  The process of deregulation and
    redistribution up the chain accelerated under Reagan, who was broadly
    sympathetic to these goals.  Yet it happened not because he was
    sympathetic to them, but because his sympathies were allowed free rein
    in a political environment where the opposition was muted and the
    expected coalition of interests opposed to the changes never
    materialised.  After all, as Hacker and Pierson point out, Richard
    Nixon, who might have been expected to share some of Reagan’s
    sympathies, had gone the other way in his actual policies a decade
    earlier, shoring up the legislative framework of the welfare state and
    maintaining a broadly progressive tax system.  (Something similar
    happened in Britain under Edward Heath.)  He acted like this because he
    felt he had little choice: the organised pressure ready to resist change
    appeared much too strong.

    It was only during the Carter years – and to some extent the
    Callaghan years in Britain – that this pressure turned out to be weaker
    than anyone thought.  The politicians of the Reagan/ Thatcher revolution
    did what they did not because they were committed ideologues,
    determined to stick to their principles.  They did it because they found
    they could get away with it.

    So where did the resistance go?  This is the real puzzle … Hacker and
    Pierson’s argument is really a return to a much longer-standing
    critique of democracy, one that flourished during the 1920s and 1930s
    but was supplanted in the postwar period by expectations of rational
    behaviour on the part of voters.  This traditional critique does not see
    the weakness of democracy as a matter of the voters wanting the wrong
    things, or not really knowing what they want.  They know what they want
    but they don’t know how to get it. It’s because they don’t understand
    the world they live in that democracy isn’t working.  People aren’t
    stupid, but when it comes to politics they are ignorant, lazy and easily
    satisfied with pat answers to difficult questions.

  • Fubar

    re: http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2011/04/08/26538/

    So, assuming that the social scientists quoted at the above blog are correct that .01% of corporate, bank and finance managers are mainly responsible for the intense concentration of wealth since the 1970s, and that the Left’s tradition resistance to such concentration of wealth was discredited, and that middle class and working people became complacent,  lazy and stupid, one must wonder what the possibilities are for reforms or other processes of social change oriented toward economic justice?

    For instance, is it possible to revive something like the Left’s opposition to Plutocracy? If so, then it would be necessary to conduct an analysis of why the Left became discredited. What was the problem with the paradigm, or tactics, of the left? How did postmodern culture, or other social forces contribute to the problem?

    If the slide toward Plutocracy can’t reasonably be seen to be reversible, what role will religion and spirituality play in a world ruled by Plutocrats?

    How is it possible for a religion premised on infallibility to make a significant contribution toward social justice movements?

  • Fubar

    Nima said: “Be that as it may, we are now living in the NWO the Bahais so tirelessly helped create.  ”

    Bahais advanced the idea of some kind of NWO (for purposes of world peace and economic equality!), but at least in the openly available written records of the religion, there was no EXPLICIT intent to create a corrupt global system of state-capitalism (plutocracy) as far as I can tell.

    In my opinion, bahai scripture and “official” guidance is maddeningly vague on the real issues of economic justice and politics.

    Late in his life, shoghi effendi made some unfortunate statements that seemed to indicate that the goal of bahaism was to create a scaled up global imperialist system, a hybrid of Christendom and Islam, but this was only in response to radical national liberation movements and rebellions against european colonialism. Even so, I am not aware that the principle of opposition to “concentration of wealth” was ever suspended.

    No question that some bahais from the upper echelons have attempted to “cozy up” to the corporatists and plutocrats, but other than some relatively indirect influence, it seem very unlikely that bahais steered the process in any significant manner.

    There were large scale global mercantile organizations that operated in previous centuries, such as the Hudson’s Bay Company, and other similar enterprises in Asia, India, Africa, etc.

    If bahaism had never become as widespread as it is, would all the  problems of state-capitalism and global economics still exist? I think so.

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    The 1% as defined by OWS.

  • http://wahidazal.blogspot.com/ wahidazal66

    It is interesting when Anglo-Europeans march their war-machines and exterminate millions of innocent people in assorted parts of the world we are later led to believe such actions to be “humanitarian interventions” and other such Newspeak nonsense. But when the shoe is turned on the other foot, and calls are made for the collective lynching of the plutocracy, certain people begin citing ridiculous statistics and making moronic arguments. The plutocracy and corporatocratic criminals in the West are no less (actually more so) criminals than the assorted Taliban and al-CIA-duh leaders Anglo-American establishments love to kill. Absolutely, these criminals should be lynched en masse and those who have aided and abetted them in any way should likewise be brought to book en masse to face the music.

  • Fubar

    Hey Nima, great hearing from you as always. 
    As far as I can tell, human beings have been capable of mass exterminations, imperial schemes, enslavement, and so forth since ancient times, regardless of nationality, ethnicity, religion, etc.

    It is unfortunate that the latest version is enhanced by the economic and technical superiority of the West.

    Anyways, I was just wondering about the practical problems of how to  exterminate what could be millions of people, and if you have any suggestions about how it would be done, and the effects on culture. For instance, when the Left exterminated even small numbers (perhaps a few 1,000s) of ultra-rich in Spain during the Civil War (1930s), the result was 50+ years of reactionary right-wing dictatorship (supported by most of the people in the “majority”). My guess is that the US National Security Apparatus and various Police Powers would easily defeat any such attempted attacks (based on previous worker/protest uprising in the USA). Any such  reactionary response would mean that the USA had taken the final step to fascism/totalitarianism, but it is a much smaller step now than in the past.

    Thomas Drake: bogus espionage charges used in attempt to cover up corruption in the military-industrial-complex:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20122207-503544.html

    “Ellsberg: All the crimes Nixon committed against me are now legal”

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/06/09/ellsberg-all-the-crimes-nixon-committed-against-me-are-now-legal/

  • Fubar

    Unfortunately I’ve never seen a specific definition of the 1% from OWS. I generally support OWS (to the extent that its goal are consistent with anarcho-libertarian integralism), and have tried to read up on the movement. If you know of a specific OWS definition for the “1%”, please let me know.

    I would suggest the following general categories as a start:

    1. Big banks and finance operations, specifically the “0.01 %” identified by the previously mentioned social scientists. Lobbyists/politicians working for the above. This would include ‘Wall St.”, London, Amsterdam, Dubai, and perhaps Hong Kong or other Chinese banks and finance schemes and other elements of the “electronic herd” of global investors.

    2. Top levels of corporate elements of the military-industrial-complex and related national security apparatus. Lobbyists/politicians working for the above.

    3. Big oil (e.g. Koch Bros). Lobbyists/politicians working for the above.

    Google is of course owned by some “1%” types (as are the computer companies that made your PC and mine), but anyways, here is what appars to to be the first relevant “page one” entry on google:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/10/brad-pitt-talks-occupy-wall-street-moneyball_n_1086423.html

    hmmm. not so useful.

    Somewhat better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#We_are_the_99.25

    “In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country’s total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country’s wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%. ”

    So, in reality, the top 1% are the biggest problem (35% of wealth), but there is another 19% that contribute significantly to the problem (and additional 15% of wealth).

    Averaging it out, the extermination of corrupt/ultra-wealthy and their supporters that you have suggested would probably have to reach at least a 10% level, or several 10s of millions of people. This would present signifcant logistical problems, including negative environmental impacts (disposal of millions of bodies) and disruption of businesses providing goods/services to the mass of consumers.

    It also might be worth mentioning that in Spain, the “Indignados” protest movement that OWs took some of its inspiration from took place at the same time that what was commonly seen as a failed socialist (Zapatero) coalition that had been in power for several years through the economic downturn was recently voted out in favor of the right wing pro-globalist/corporatist PP (Partido Popular “Popular Party”).

    And, it does not look like the Arab Spring is going to result in a flourishing “liberal” political culture in places like Eqypt.

    In the USA, the main feature of the original failure of the opposition to the uber-concentration of wealth was the manner in which the Left, and its Labor allies, became discredited in the 70s, *initially* most noticeably during the Carter administration (not Reagan).

    With no legitimate, significant opposition at that time, the “vast right wing” conspiracy was able to put in position an array of initiatives to effect the concentration of wealth and, via the establishment of various right wing and pro-corporatist think thanks, public opinion was manipulated in such a way as to make it seem that the program of the corporatists/plutocrats was “patriotic”, rather than destructive of democracy and the US Constitution.

    A ”globalized” world economy combined with the toxic economic scheme hatched during the Carter/Reagan years was the deadly combo resulting in the rapid slide toward Plutocracy.

    Police forces in large urban areas in the USA have a long history of excelling at brutally suppressing anti-establishment protest movements.

    http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-law

  • Fubar

    Unfortunately I’ve never seen a specific definition of the 1% from OWS. I generally support OWS (to the extent that its goal are consistent with anarcho-libertarian integralism), and have tried to read up on the movement. If you know of a specific OWS definition for the “1%”, please let me know.

    I would suggest the following general categories as a start:

    1. Big banks and finance operations, specifically the “0.01 %” identified by the previously mentioned social scientists. Lobbyists/politicians working for the above. This would include ‘Wall St.”, London, Amsterdam, Dubai, and perhaps Hong Kong or other Chinese banks and finance schemes and other elements of the “electronic herd” of global investors.

    2. Top levels of corporate elements of the military-industrial-complex and related national security apparatus. Lobbyists/politicians working for the above.

    3. Big oil (e.g. Koch Bros). Lobbyists/politicians working for the above.

    Google is of course owned by some “1%” types (as are the computer companies that made your PC and mine), but anyways, here is what appars to to be the first relevant “page one” entry on google:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/10/brad-pitt-talks-occupy-wall-street-moneyball_n_1086423.html

    hmmm. not so useful.

    Somewhat better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#We_are_the_99.25

    “In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 34.6% of the country’s total wealth, and the next 19% owned 50.5%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 85% of the country’s wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 15%. ”

    So, in reality, the top 1% are the biggest problem (35% of wealth), but there is another 19% that contribute significantly to the problem (and additional 15% of wealth).

    Averaging it out, the extermination of corrupt/ultra-wealthy and their supporters that you have suggested would probably have to reach at least a 10% level, or several 10s of millions of people. This would present signifcant logistical problems, including negative environmental impacts (disposal of millions of bodies) and disruption of businesses providing goods/services to the mass of consumers.

    It also might be worth mentioning that in Spain, the “Indignados” protest movement that OWs took some of its inspiration from took place at the same time that what was commonly seen as a failed socialist (Zapatero) coalition that had been in power for several years through the economic downturn was recently voted out in favor of the right wing pro-globalist/corporatist PP (Partido Popular “Popular Party”).

    And, it does not look like the Arab Spring is going to result in a flourishing “liberal” political culture in places like Eqypt.

    In the USA, the main feature of the original failure of the opposition to the uber-concentration of wealth was the manner in which the Left, and its Labor allies, became discredited in the 70s, *initially* most noticeably during the Carter administration (not Reagan).

    With no legitimate, significant opposition at that time, the “vast right wing” conspiracy was able to put in position an array of initiatives to effect the concentration of wealth and, via the establishment of various right wing and pro-corporatist think thanks, public opinion was manipulated in such a way as to make it seem that the program of the corporatists/plutocrats was “patriotic”, rather than destructive of democracy and the US Constitution.

    A ”globalized” world economy combined with the toxic economic scheme hatched during the Carter/Reagan years was the deadly combo resulting in the rapid slide toward Plutocracy.

    Police forces in large urban areas in the USA have a long history of excelling at brutally suppressing anti-establishment protest movements.

    http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/president-obama-signs-indefinite-detention-law

  • Fubar

    In case you haen’t already seen it, more interesting background on Wall St. scandals:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-wall-street-in-one-brief-tale-20120113

  • Fubar

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/everything-you-need-to-know-about-wall-street-in-one-brief-tale-20120113

    Excerpt:
    [from blog comments]
    Shelley Erickson | January 14, 5:36 PM ET

    Professor William Black states the crime is aroung a hundred times worse, than when he helped put over 800 in jail in the 1980′s so I exspect there should have been around eight thousand in jail long ago. These criminal institutions have enbedded judges attoreys and represenatives into the system to undo laws and deregulate the banks so they could steal and get a way with it, I believe most of the local court judges to be corrupt, with a minority that are not. Just my belief and a lot of parties on the web and Pro Se case law supporting my belief.

    —end excerpts—

    Professor William Black:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-k-black/how-the-servant-became-a_b_318010.html