Little Known Facts: The Supreme Institution?

universal-house-of-justice-supreme-institution

It has been a while since we cracked open a case of “Little Known Facts…” but don’t worry, this is a fresh batch.

If you are a Baha’i or have spent enough time around some recently, you may have heard the expression: “the Supreme body” or “the Supreme institution” at least a few times.

In current Baha’i vernacular, this refers to the Universal House of Justice. But where did it come from? and is it accurate? any why is it important to wonder about these questions?

During a recent discussion online at Talisman, the oldest continuous online Baha’i forum, the topic turned to the House of Justice and the quandary of how to distinguish if they are legislating or not. Within the discussion, as is now sadly becoming the norm, someone used the expression to refer to the UHJ.

Your humble scribe interjected:

pardon the digression, but where did this habit of calling the UHJ as
the “supreme body” or “supreme institution” come from?

According to Shoghi Effendi, the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar, is “the crowning institution”. Furthermore, Shoghi Effendi does on to describe the relationship between the Administrative Order and the Mashriq:

“The seat round which its (referring to the AO) spiritual, its humanitarian and administrative activities will cluster are the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar and its Dependencies.”

It was obvious to me that everyone seemed to have simply accepted this title. But what was less obvious was how legitimate it really was.

If we are speaking in generalities, from a rudimentary reading of the Writings about the Administrative Order, it would seem that the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar has a very focal place within the Baha’i community. One, around which, the administrative institutions cluster.

Unfortunately the institution of Mashriqu’l-Adhkhar is totally ignored in the current Baha’i culture. A severe oversight when you actually take the time to read about its importance in the Writings. This error will, I hope, be corrected in the future. But to stick to the topic at hand, why have Baha’is spontaneously started to give this generic title of “supreme body” to the House? and does it have any real significance?

I was delighted when Sen wrote a lengthy reply to my question. You can read it here at Sen’s own blog. Here’s an excerpt:

This usage was not found in the 1960s or 1970s to my knowledge. I think the change in terms used for the UHJ is significant. I think that the shorter terms such as “the Supreme Body” are – usually – a way of indicating that the speaker asserts the UHJ’s ideal supremacy over everything and everybody. Whether that is the intention or not, it will sound that way to hearers.

The same sort of dynamics, an “inflation” of titles and claims, exist in all religious movements that I know of, from New Religious Movements to Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and Shiah and Sunni Islam. In all religions, there are minimisers and there are exaggerators, and there is an internal dynamic that favours the exaggerators, so that in the long term the metaphysical claims a religion makes and the titles it uses inflate.

The dynamic that favours the exaggerators is that an exaggeration always appears more pious, even if technically wrong. And what is just “more pious” in this generation, is self-evident orthodoxy for the next. Those who want to seem more fervently pious then have to move up one step of hyperbole.

Another “little known fact”, brought to you by Baha’i Rants, thanks to Sen. The Universal House of Justice is not the “Supreme body” nor the “Supreme institution”.

Fine, you may say, but isn’t this nitpicking or is this really important?

The reason such a distinction is truly important is that language is important. We use words to communicate ideas and concepts. Because of this connection to values, ideas and concepts, words vicariously have tremendous power.

The Guardian, along with the other central figures of the Faith, were wordsmiths and always used precise language – after all, that was their primary tool to act upon the world. How silly do we look if we insist on using a term that wasn’t used by Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and neither used by the very institution the term refers to?

Finally, although words do have power, actions are immensely more powerful. If our intention is to show piety, we do ourselves and our communities a disservice if we merely use empty but exaggeratedly pious sounding words:

The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.
Baha’u’llah

  • There is a great deal in the Writings about the centrality of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar, and its high station. See:

    http://bahai-library.com/articles/mashriq.html

    Most of it refers to a local Mashriqu’l-Adhkar’s role in a local community. There is a special significance for the “mother temples” but this seems to be simply that they are the first. But there is nothing firm that I know of that indicates a global-level role for the Mashriq. The World Centre needs a Mashriq, of course, because all the Bahai administrative institutions are supposed to be in “close and daily communion with those spiritual agencies centering in and radiating from the central Shrine of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar.” But the Mashriq itself seems to be a ‘flat’ institution, non-hierarchical.

    In this light, there is no contradiction between the Universal House of Justice being “the supreme administrative body in the Dispensation of Bah??’u’ll??h” – at the global level – and the Mashriq being the central institution, “the crowning institution in every Baha’i community,” at the local level.

  • There is a great deal in the Writings about the centrality of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar, and its high station. See:

    http://bahai-library.com/articles/mashriq.html

    Most of it refers to a local Mashriqu’l-Adhkar’s role in a local community. There is a special significance for the “mother temples” but this seems to be simply that they are the first. But there is nothing firm that I know of that indicates a global-level role for the Mashriq. The World Centre needs a Mashriq, of course, because all the Bahai administrative institutions are supposed to be in “close and daily communion with those spiritual agencies centering in and radiating from the central Shrine of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar.” But the Mashriq itself seems to be a ‘flat’ institution, non-hierarchical.

    In this light, there is no contradiction between the Universal House of Justice being “the supreme administrative body in the Dispensation of Bah??’u’ll??h” – at the global level – and the Mashriq being the central institution, “the crowning institution in every Baha’i community,” at the local level.

  • Amanda

    “…the International House of Justice, the supreme administrative body in the Dispensation of Bah??’u’ll??h.” Directives from the Guardian, Pg 50

    “…the Universal House of Justice, the supreme legislative body of the Bah??’? world…” Messages to the Baha’i World: 1950-1957 Pg 21

    ?With these Assemblies, Local as well as National, harmoniously, vigorously and efficiently functioning throughout the Bah??’? world, the only means for the establishment of the Supreme House of Justice will have been assured. And when this Supreme Body will have been properly established, it will have to consider afresh the whole situation, and lay down the principle which shall direct, as long as it deems advisable, the affairs of the Cause.”
    Directives from the Guardian Pg 23

    ?At whatever time all the beloved of God in each country appoint their delegates, and these in turn elect their representatives, and these representatives elect a body, that body shall be regarded as the Supreme Baytu’l-’Adl (Universal House of Justice).?
    Baha’i Administration Pg 84

    Etc etc

  • Amanda

    “…the International House of Justice, the supreme administrative body in the Dispensation of Bah??’u’ll??h.” Directives from the Guardian, Pg 50

    “…the Universal House of Justice, the supreme legislative body of the Bah??’? world…” Messages to the Baha’i World: 1950-1957 Pg 21

    ?With these Assemblies, Local as well as National, harmoniously, vigorously and efficiently functioning throughout the Bah??’? world, the only means for the establishment of the Supreme House of Justice will have been assured. And when this Supreme Body will have been properly established, it will have to consider afresh the whole situation, and lay down the principle which shall direct, as long as it deems advisable, the affairs of the Cause.”
    Directives from the Guardian Pg 23

    ?At whatever time all the beloved of God in each country appoint their delegates, and these in turn elect their representatives, and these representatives elect a body, that body shall be regarded as the Supreme Baytu’l-’Adl (Universal House of Justice).?
    Baha’i Administration Pg 84

    Etc etc

  • My national newsletter arrived today:

    “Supreme Body” – 7
    “beloved Supreme Body” – 1
    “supreme institution” – 1

    The Baha’is do seem to have cornered the market in beloved Supreme Bodies.

    ka kite
    Steve

  • My national newsletter arrived today:

    “Supreme Body” – 7
    “beloved Supreme Body” – 1
    “supreme institution” – 1

    The Baha’is do seem to have cornered the market in beloved Supreme Bodies.

    ka kite
    Steve

  • Andrew

    The Beloved Supreme Body

    Merry Chrismukkah, Baha’u’llah!

  • Andrew

    The Beloved Supreme Body

    Merry Chrismukkah, Baha’u’llah!

  • Lee

    Please pay attention to Amanda’s comment above. it basically made the article have no relevance.

    why people turn their hypothetical doubts into facts without any actual facts? why don’t you read first, do your research and then ask a serious question?! I would assume that you all read Persian and Arabic too since you claim such conclusions else you have access only to 10% of the writings available in english. and even that you failed to look at the most basic writings of one of the four authors of the Faith (yes I am including the Bab. I hope you know who is He).
    I thought you guys are academics or have critical thinking! you have the critical but not the thinking which includes research process.

    Supreme Body in arabic and persian is the same word “ma’hade A’la” which you will also find it in the Guardian and Abd’l-Baha’s writings.
    hmmmm any comments? please don’t be weak in your arguments like the guy who commented in one of the articles responding to the story of Ruhi being applied in university in Magnolia by saying “it doesn’t count Magnolia is not a real county”!!!

  • Lee

    Please pay attention to Amanda’s comment above. it basically made the article have no relevance.

    why people turn their hypothetical doubts into facts without any actual facts? why don’t you read first, do your research and then ask a serious question?! I would assume that you all read Persian and Arabic too since you claim such conclusions else you have access only to 10% of the writings available in english. and even that you failed to look at the most basic writings of one of the four authors of the Faith (yes I am including the Bab. I hope you know who is He).
    I thought you guys are academics or have critical thinking! you have the critical but not the thinking which includes research process.

    Supreme Body in arabic and persian is the same word “ma’hade A’la” which you will also find it in the Guardian and Abd’l-Baha’s writings.
    hmmmm any comments? please don’t be weak in your arguments like the guy who commented in one of the articles responding to the story of Ruhi being applied in university in Magnolia by saying “it doesn’t count Magnolia is not a real county”!!!

  • Lee and Amanda, there is a difference between “Supreme institution” or “Supreme body” and “Supreme administrative body” or “Supreme legislative institution”.

    Can you see the difference? go back and read things a bit slower. See it now? No? Try again. Slow down even more. Take things letter by letter if need be. You’ll see the difference eventually.

    And what are you saying? That Mongolia is a country? I highly doubt that. Have you ever been there? It is more like a state of mind than an actual physical place. If you don’t believe me try to go there. Go ahead, set off right now and head over.

  • Lee and Amanda, there is a difference between “Supreme institution” or “Supreme body” and “Supreme administrative body” or “Supreme legislative institution”.

    Can you see the difference? go back and read things a bit slower. See it now? No? Try again. Slow down even more. Take things letter by letter if need be. You’ll see the difference eventually.

    And what are you saying? That Mongolia is a country? I highly doubt that. Have you ever been there? It is more like a state of mind than an actual physical place. If you don’t believe me try to go there. Go ahead, set off right now and head over.

  • Lee

    let see someone says that about your country. wow so much for unity of mankind!!
    and yes I’ve been there! it’s now -20c freezing cold. just talked to a friend who came back few days ago from Ulaanbaatar (the Capital). Julia Robert been there too!! she made a whole documentary about it. you can buy it from any store next to you! oh yes George Bush was there in 2005. believe it or not Mongolia sent troops to Iraq!! be careful I travelled around the world. try something else. and please be respectful to other nations and peoples of the world. unless you don’t like other people who look different than you and cause a threat to you.

    Supreme administrative institution? interesting! glad you highlighted it 🙂 Mashriqu’lAzkar is an administration oh wait the LSAs and the NSAs are also administrations, the Hands of the Cause of God are also part of the administration and they are all institutions (look into the writings). I wonder who is the Supreme one among them?!!! I guess I should look it up in the writings don’t you think? or shall just stick to what you already told me?
    politicians refer to their congress or parliament as legislative body which is also an institution. shall I explain it better or slower so you understand?

    peace! let’s keep it that way.

  • Lee

    let see someone says that about your country. wow so much for unity of mankind!!
    and yes I’ve been there! it’s now -20c freezing cold. just talked to a friend who came back few days ago from Ulaanbaatar (the Capital). Julia Robert been there too!! she made a whole documentary about it. you can buy it from any store next to you! oh yes George Bush was there in 2005. believe it or not Mongolia sent troops to Iraq!! be careful I travelled around the world. try something else. and please be respectful to other nations and peoples of the world. unless you don’t like other people who look different than you and cause a threat to you.

    Supreme administrative institution? interesting! glad you highlighted it 🙂 Mashriqu’lAzkar is an administration oh wait the LSAs and the NSAs are also administrations, the Hands of the Cause of God are also part of the administration and they are all institutions (look into the writings). I wonder who is the Supreme one among them?!!! I guess I should look it up in the writings don’t you think? or shall just stick to what you already told me?
    politicians refer to their congress or parliament as legislative body which is also an institution. shall I explain it better or slower so you understand?

    peace! let’s keep it that way.

  • Grover

    One of the counsellors once said when asked about why women weren’t allowed on the UHJ that Amatul-Baha as a hand of the cause ranked higher than the UHJ, so while women weren’t allowed on the UHJ, they occupied higher positions. So doesn’t that make the HoC the supreme institution? I don’t have any quotes for this however….

  • Grover

    One of the counsellors once said when asked about why women weren’t allowed on the UHJ that Amatul-Baha as a hand of the cause ranked higher than the UHJ, so while women weren’t allowed on the UHJ, they occupied higher positions. So doesn’t that make the HoC the supreme institution? I don’t have any quotes for this however….

  • Amanda

    Hi, Baquia.

    You wrote:
    “Lee and Amanda, there is a difference between ?Supreme institution? or ?Supreme body? and ?Supreme administrative body? or ?Supreme legislative institution?.

    Can you see the difference? go back and read things a bit slower. See it now? No? Try again. Slow down even more. Take things letter by letter if need be. You’ll see the difference eventually.”

    I do see the difference between “Supreme body” and “Supreme administrative/legislative/multiple adjective etc body.” (Thank you for generously suggesting a letter by letter reading.) But the quotations I listed above included both variations. There are more. My only point in posting them was to speak to the question you raised: “why have Baha’is spontaneously started to give this generic title of ?supreme body? to the House? and does it have any real significance?”

    I just thought it was relevent that Shoghi Effendi used the term “Supreme body” himself. Do you disagree? I don’t think that diminishes your and Sen’s point about the implications of the term itself. What do you think?

  • Amanda

    Hi, Baquia.

    You wrote:
    “Lee and Amanda, there is a difference between ?Supreme institution? or ?Supreme body? and ?Supreme administrative body? or ?Supreme legislative institution?.

    Can you see the difference? go back and read things a bit slower. See it now? No? Try again. Slow down even more. Take things letter by letter if need be. You’ll see the difference eventually.”

    I do see the difference between “Supreme body” and “Supreme administrative/legislative/multiple adjective etc body.” (Thank you for generously suggesting a letter by letter reading.) But the quotations I listed above included both variations. There are more. My only point in posting them was to speak to the question you raised: “why have Baha’is spontaneously started to give this generic title of ?supreme body? to the House? and does it have any real significance?”

    I just thought it was relevent that Shoghi Effendi used the term “Supreme body” himself. Do you disagree? I don’t think that diminishes your and Sen’s point about the implications of the term itself. What do you think?

  • Amanda,
    every single instance you provided had a “qualifier” after the word ‘Supreme’.

    When the Guardian says “this Supreme body” he is referring to the distinction made in the previous sentence, which had a qualifier.

    The last one is simply there to differentiate between the UHJ and national/local houses of justice. So it seems you agree with me. Or at least are presenting the same evidence.
    🙂

    ps Lee, you need to watch some Monty Python to build up your sense of humor – it seems my feeble attempts at comedy have failed miserably!
    😀

  • Amanda,
    every single instance you provided had a “qualifier” after the word ‘Supreme’.

    When the Guardian says “this Supreme body” he is referring to the distinction made in the previous sentence, which had a qualifier.

    The last one is simply there to differentiate between the UHJ and national/local houses of justice. So it seems you agree with me. Or at least are presenting the same evidence.
    🙂

    ps Lee, you need to watch some Monty Python to build up your sense of humor – it seems my feeble attempts at comedy have failed miserably!
    😀

  • Amanda

    [quote comment=””]Amanda,
    every single instance you provided had a “qualifier” after the word ‘Supreme’.

    When the Guardian says “this Supreme body” he is referring to the distinction made in the previous sentence, which had a qualifier.

    [/quote]

    Above, I cited: “And when this Supreme Body will have been properly established, it will have to consider afresh the whole situation…”

    which you assert was SE referring back to the previous sentence.

    I’m just saying that’s where people got the lingo- from SE saying it himself (verbatim, without qualifiers, word for word) first. Now ask me if I think that’s a good thing.

    I understand that you are comparing the instititions of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar and the UHJ, and speaking to how the community views them, respectively. I lived in Wilmette for quite a while (a community that focuses a bit more on the importance of the development and future role of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar than most, I’d say) and did my time guiding at the Temple.

    My Supreme institution:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T9SEY8eLyk

  • Amanda

    [quote comment=””]Amanda,
    every single instance you provided had a “qualifier” after the word ‘Supreme’.

    When the Guardian says “this Supreme body” he is referring to the distinction made in the previous sentence, which had a qualifier.

    [/quote]

    Above, I cited: “And when this Supreme Body will have been properly established, it will have to consider afresh the whole situation…”

    which you assert was SE referring back to the previous sentence.

    I’m just saying that’s where people got the lingo- from SE saying it himself (verbatim, without qualifiers, word for word) first. Now ask me if I think that’s a good thing.

    I understand that you are comparing the instititions of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar and the UHJ, and speaking to how the community views them, respectively. I lived in Wilmette for quite a while (a community that focuses a bit more on the importance of the development and future role of the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar than most, I’d say) and did my time guiding at the Temple.

    My Supreme institution:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T9SEY8eLyk

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=”60370″]Amanda,
    every single instance you provided had a “qualifier” after the word ‘Supreme’.

    When the Guardian says “this Supreme body” he is referring to the distinction made in the previous sentence, which had a qualifier.

    The last one is simply there to differentiate between the UHJ and national/local houses of justice. So it seems you agree with me. Or at least are presenting the same evidence.
    🙂

    ps Lee, you need to watch some Monty Python to build up your sense of humor – it seems my feeble attempts at comedy have failed miserably!
    :D[/quote]

    All thoughtful points, Baquia. But I think the full revelatory depth psychology importance of the UHJ in the context of the long bloody centuries of the Abrahmaic religions is primarily archetypal. That is the level where the rubber meets the road and that is where we are going to get some real (pardon the pun) fundamental answers as this all plays out.

    The great contribution to the evolution of the human race of the Abrahamic organized religions of the Middle East of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and now the Baha’i Faith is that we have 3,000 continuous years of the history of deranged groupthink brain chemistry. Throw in the brain chemistry of the deranged fundamentalist ideologues of the “secular religions” of Nazism and Communism in the 20th Century that murdered millions and we have one stop shopping on the phenomenon of vision less counter productive Johnny-One-Note fanatical groupthink and the resulting vision less counter productive Johnny-One-Note habituated response in human history. So far the Baha’i Faith is on the same psychologically dysfunctional message five by five. I, myself, in my dedication had hoped for something so much more insightful. But it is fascinating. From Jesus to Torquemada it is ALWAYS the same. The mentality of fundamentalist bomb throwers and top down psychological control freaks ALWAYS wins in EVERY human organization EVER whether one believes it is Divinely inspired or not. If there is a Divine level in all of this body of history, perhaps the sorry history of the Abrahamic religions was to understand this deranged brain chemistry from World Age to World Age when the human race would need tremendous organizational psychological insight when it would finally invent nuclear weapons. Perhaps the hope was that in that moment the 3,000 year old dramatic record would trigger a ice cold warning in us. Unfortunately it didn’t because people just aren’t terribly bright in organized religions. So now we face the day of the flying nails that carry out the crucifixion of man.

    But Merry Christmas to all the Neocon sociopaths in every land and religion. The supply is endless. On Christmas Day it is always good to read some Kurt Vonnegut and some Eric Hoffer before you sit down to say your prayer at Christmas Dinner. And maybe watch some Monty Python too on DVD.

    But, never-the-less, Merry Christmas to everyone here!

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=”60370″]Amanda,
    every single instance you provided had a “qualifier” after the word ‘Supreme’.

    When the Guardian says “this Supreme body” he is referring to the distinction made in the previous sentence, which had a qualifier.

    The last one is simply there to differentiate between the UHJ and national/local houses of justice. So it seems you agree with me. Or at least are presenting the same evidence.
    🙂

    ps Lee, you need to watch some Monty Python to build up your sense of humor – it seems my feeble attempts at comedy have failed miserably!
    :D[/quote]

    All thoughtful points, Baquia. But I think the full revelatory depth psychology importance of the UHJ in the context of the long bloody centuries of the Abrahmaic religions is primarily archetypal. That is the level where the rubber meets the road and that is where we are going to get some real (pardon the pun) fundamental answers as this all plays out.

    The great contribution to the evolution of the human race of the Abrahamic organized religions of the Middle East of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and now the Baha’i Faith is that we have 3,000 continuous years of the history of deranged groupthink brain chemistry. Throw in the brain chemistry of the deranged fundamentalist ideologues of the “secular religions” of Nazism and Communism in the 20th Century that murdered millions and we have one stop shopping on the phenomenon of vision less counter productive Johnny-One-Note fanatical groupthink and the resulting vision less counter productive Johnny-One-Note habituated response in human history. So far the Baha’i Faith is on the same psychologically dysfunctional message five by five. I, myself, in my dedication had hoped for something so much more insightful. But it is fascinating. From Jesus to Torquemada it is ALWAYS the same. The mentality of fundamentalist bomb throwers and top down psychological control freaks ALWAYS wins in EVERY human organization EVER whether one believes it is Divinely inspired or not. If there is a Divine level in all of this body of history, perhaps the sorry history of the Abrahamic religions was to understand this deranged brain chemistry from World Age to World Age when the human race would need tremendous organizational psychological insight when it would finally invent nuclear weapons. Perhaps the hope was that in that moment the 3,000 year old dramatic record would trigger a ice cold warning in us. Unfortunately it didn’t because people just aren’t terribly bright in organized religions. So now we face the day of the flying nails that carry out the crucifixion of man.

    But Merry Christmas to all the Neocon sociopaths in every land and religion. The supply is endless. On Christmas Day it is always good to read some Kurt Vonnegut and some Eric Hoffer before you sit down to say your prayer at Christmas Dinner. And maybe watch some Monty Python too on DVD.

    But, never-the-less, Merry Christmas to everyone here!

  • amishindian

    Let’s face it. All we need is the writings of Bahaullah, AbdulBaha, the Internet, good translators, a goodbye Guardianship UHJ with a whole lot of diversity, independent investigation of truth. Oh and keep the buildings and gardens and let the Spirit of the Age do its thing.

  • amishindian

    Let’s face it. All we need is the writings of Bahaullah, AbdulBaha, the Internet, good translators, a goodbye Guardianship UHJ with a whole lot of diversity, independent investigation of truth. Oh and keep the buildings and gardens and let the Spirit of the Age do its thing.

  • Yusuf

    And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.

    What does that refer to above and why is there no discussion of the “world order of Baha’u’llah”?

  • Yusuf

    And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.

    What does that refer to above and why is there no discussion of the “world order of Baha’u’llah”?

  • Kurt

    He is refering to progressive revelation and a subsequent manifestation, I think. Baha’u’llah refers to them every now and then.

  • Kurt

    He is refering to progressive revelation and a subsequent manifestation, I think. Baha’u’llah refers to them every now and then.

  • Yusuf

    [quote comment=””]He is refering to progressive revelation and a subsequent manifestation, I think. Baha’u’llah refers to them every now and then.[/quote]
    What? That is not so. He is referring to some calamity that has yet not occurred it seems. No? Nuclear war perhaps? I am not sure.
    What exactly are the “limbs of mankind”?

  • Yusuf

    [quote comment=””]He is refering to progressive revelation and a subsequent manifestation, I think. Baha’u’llah refers to them every now and then.[/quote]
    What? That is not so. He is referring to some calamity that has yet not occurred it seems. No? Nuclear war perhaps? I am not sure.
    What exactly are the “limbs of mankind”?

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=”60539″]Let’s face it. All we need is the writings of Bahaullah, AbdulBaha, the Internet, good translators, a goodbye Guardianship UHJ with a whole lot of diversity, independent investigation of truth. Oh and keep the buildings and gardens and let the Spirit of the Age do its thing.[/quote]

    Absolutely spot on post, amishindian! THAT is EXACTLY what is going to happen. In fact, it is already happening now. The existing structure of top down thought control is going to be completely left in the dust by the technology of uncontrollable independent intimate global communication. Peter Khan in his endless talks and endless “cosmic insights” on “everything Baha’i” traveling the world on Baha’u’llah’s money in his pompous self infatuated center- of-the-Known-Universe uncontrolled internal dialogue (yawn) will be reduced to just writing diet books and very, very soon. Everyone else on Earth will be thinking for themselves and corresponding with each other off line where no one can monitor ANYTHING at all. The Baha’i Faith needs less lock step sociopathic Chief Priest, Scribe, and Pharisee from the (yawn) Abrahamic religions play book and more Shirley MacLaine. (Relax Wahid, don’t go all knee jerk outrage on me for being an “American New Age vapid dupe”, that was a joke!)

    And, remember, sometime in 2009 we will complete the Ruhi Book 1929 Full-Sequence-of-Courses right here on Baquia’s Blog! Then we are going to start with Ruhi Book 1930, Ruhi Book 1931, Ruhi Book 1932, and the final Ruhi Book 1933 where the Muslim Hitler comes to power and levels everybody and everything by Economic Fractal World War III. The courses are endless and there cannot be enough preparation to have PRE-APPROVED economic theory insights when you are standing in a soup line. As I said previously, after we complete Ruhi Book 1929 we will speedily move on to the “service practice” exercise which is, as I have said, everyone on this blog lending me money in a nice Keynesian “stimulus package” for my personal economic well being. I may be desperately needing it if the ONE TRILLION DOLLARS currently bet on CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS (which are STILL entirely legal to buy!) on GM GOING UNDER topples one of the Big Nine Protected Banks (nice number!) and a worldwide domino chain reaction starts. So be sure to start setting something aside from your paychecks for me each month.

    Happy New Year to Everyone!

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=”60539″]Let’s face it. All we need is the writings of Bahaullah, AbdulBaha, the Internet, good translators, a goodbye Guardianship UHJ with a whole lot of diversity, independent investigation of truth. Oh and keep the buildings and gardens and let the Spirit of the Age do its thing.[/quote]

    Absolutely spot on post, amishindian! THAT is EXACTLY what is going to happen. In fact, it is already happening now. The existing structure of top down thought control is going to be completely left in the dust by the technology of uncontrollable independent intimate global communication. Peter Khan in his endless talks and endless “cosmic insights” on “everything Baha’i” traveling the world on Baha’u’llah’s money in his pompous self infatuated center- of-the-Known-Universe uncontrolled internal dialogue (yawn) will be reduced to just writing diet books and very, very soon. Everyone else on Earth will be thinking for themselves and corresponding with each other off line where no one can monitor ANYTHING at all. The Baha’i Faith needs less lock step sociopathic Chief Priest, Scribe, and Pharisee from the (yawn) Abrahamic religions play book and more Shirley MacLaine. (Relax Wahid, don’t go all knee jerk outrage on me for being an “American New Age vapid dupe”, that was a joke!)

    And, remember, sometime in 2009 we will complete the Ruhi Book 1929 Full-Sequence-of-Courses right here on Baquia’s Blog! Then we are going to start with Ruhi Book 1930, Ruhi Book 1931, Ruhi Book 1932, and the final Ruhi Book 1933 where the Muslim Hitler comes to power and levels everybody and everything by Economic Fractal World War III. The courses are endless and there cannot be enough preparation to have PRE-APPROVED economic theory insights when you are standing in a soup line. As I said previously, after we complete Ruhi Book 1929 we will speedily move on to the “service practice” exercise which is, as I have said, everyone on this blog lending me money in a nice Keynesian “stimulus package” for my personal economic well being. I may be desperately needing it if the ONE TRILLION DOLLARS currently bet on CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS (which are STILL entirely legal to buy!) on GM GOING UNDER topples one of the Big Nine Protected Banks (nice number!) and a worldwide domino chain reaction starts. So be sure to start setting something aside from your paychecks for me each month.

    Happy New Year to Everyone!

  • Kurt

    [quote comment=””][quote comment=”60539″]Let’s face it. All we need is the writings of Bahaullah, AbdulBaha, the Internet, good translators, a goodbye Guardianship UHJ with a whole lot of diversity, independent investigation of truth. Oh and keep the buildings and gardens and let the Spirit of the Age do its thing.[/quote]

    Absolutely spot on post, amishindian! THAT is EXACTLY what is going to happen. In fact, it is already happening now. The existing structure of top down thought control is going to be completely left in the dust by the technology of uncontrollable independent intimate global communication. Peter Khan in his endless talks and endless “cosmic insights” on “everything Baha’i” traveling the world on Baha’u’llah’s money in his pompous self infatuated center- of-the-Known-Universe uncontrolled internal dialogue (yawn) will be reduced to just writing diet books and very, very soon. Everyone else on Earth will be thinking for themselves and corresponding with each other off line where no one can monitor ANYTHING at all. The Baha’i Faith needs less lock step sociopathic Chief Priest, Scribe, and Pharisee from the (yawn) Abrahamic religions play book and more Shirley MacLaine. (Relax Wahid, don’t go all knee jerk outrage on me for being an “American New Age vapid dupe”, that was a joke!)

    And, remember, sometime in 2009 we will complete the Ruhi Book 1929 Full-Sequence-of-Courses right here on Baquia’s Blog! Then we are going to start with Ruhi Book 1930, Ruhi Book 1931, Ruhi Book 1932, and the final Ruhi Book 1933 where the Muslim Hitler comes to power and levels everybody and everything by Economic Fractal World War III. The courses are endless and there cannot be enough preparation to have PRE-APPROVED economic theory insights when you are standing in a soup line. As I said previously, after we complete Ruhi Book 1929 we will speedily move on to the “service practice” exercise which is, as I have said, everyone on this blog lending me money in a nice Keynesian “stimulus package” for my personal economic well being. I may be desperately needing it if the ONE TRILLION DOLLARS currently bet on CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS (which are STILL entirely legal to buy!) on GM GOING UNDER topples one of the Big Nine Protected Banks (nice number!) and a worldwide domino chain reaction starts. So be sure to start setting something aside from your paychecks for me each month.

    Happy New Year to Everyone![/quote]

    What exactly are the limbs of mankind? Does the phrase point to a calamity of sorts?

    “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

    In referring to His own revelation, Baha’u’llah says in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, pg 143-144, “This is the Announcement that hath caused the limbs of mankind to quake, except such as God, the Protector, the Helper, the Succorer, hath willed to exempt.”

    What greater calamity is there than to witness but misinterpret, both individually and collectively, the birth of a new revelation from God and to miss out on its purpose for mankind? By way of example, consider what a better place the world would be if the kings and emperors of Baha’u’llah’s time had indeed responded to His letters and exhortations and convened an assemblage to limit armaments and iron out differences among themselves?

    I have found over the years that a literal reading of Scriptures or reading future events into Scriptures instead of extracting spiritual sustenance from Scriptures does little to keep a healthy depth of field. Just my thoughts.

    Kurt

  • Kurt

    [quote comment=””][quote comment=”60539″]Let’s face it. All we need is the writings of Bahaullah, AbdulBaha, the Internet, good translators, a goodbye Guardianship UHJ with a whole lot of diversity, independent investigation of truth. Oh and keep the buildings and gardens and let the Spirit of the Age do its thing.[/quote]

    Absolutely spot on post, amishindian! THAT is EXACTLY what is going to happen. In fact, it is already happening now. The existing structure of top down thought control is going to be completely left in the dust by the technology of uncontrollable independent intimate global communication. Peter Khan in his endless talks and endless “cosmic insights” on “everything Baha’i” traveling the world on Baha’u’llah’s money in his pompous self infatuated center- of-the-Known-Universe uncontrolled internal dialogue (yawn) will be reduced to just writing diet books and very, very soon. Everyone else on Earth will be thinking for themselves and corresponding with each other off line where no one can monitor ANYTHING at all. The Baha’i Faith needs less lock step sociopathic Chief Priest, Scribe, and Pharisee from the (yawn) Abrahamic religions play book and more Shirley MacLaine. (Relax Wahid, don’t go all knee jerk outrage on me for being an “American New Age vapid dupe”, that was a joke!)

    And, remember, sometime in 2009 we will complete the Ruhi Book 1929 Full-Sequence-of-Courses right here on Baquia’s Blog! Then we are going to start with Ruhi Book 1930, Ruhi Book 1931, Ruhi Book 1932, and the final Ruhi Book 1933 where the Muslim Hitler comes to power and levels everybody and everything by Economic Fractal World War III. The courses are endless and there cannot be enough preparation to have PRE-APPROVED economic theory insights when you are standing in a soup line. As I said previously, after we complete Ruhi Book 1929 we will speedily move on to the “service practice” exercise which is, as I have said, everyone on this blog lending me money in a nice Keynesian “stimulus package” for my personal economic well being. I may be desperately needing it if the ONE TRILLION DOLLARS currently bet on CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS (which are STILL entirely legal to buy!) on GM GOING UNDER topples one of the Big Nine Protected Banks (nice number!) and a worldwide domino chain reaction starts. So be sure to start setting something aside from your paychecks for me each month.

    Happy New Year to Everyone![/quote]

    What exactly are the limbs of mankind? Does the phrase point to a calamity of sorts?

    “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

    In referring to His own revelation, Baha’u’llah says in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, pg 143-144, “This is the Announcement that hath caused the limbs of mankind to quake, except such as God, the Protector, the Helper, the Succorer, hath willed to exempt.”

    What greater calamity is there than to witness but misinterpret, both individually and collectively, the birth of a new revelation from God and to miss out on its purpose for mankind? By way of example, consider what a better place the world would be if the kings and emperors of Baha’u’llah’s time had indeed responded to His letters and exhortations and convened an assemblage to limit armaments and iron out differences among themselves?

    I have found over the years that a literal reading of Scriptures or reading future events into Scriptures instead of extracting spiritual sustenance from Scriptures does little to keep a healthy depth of field. Just my thoughts.

    Kurt

  • Kurt

    Unfortuately, I included Craig Parke’s comment (very funny) with my own. Perhaps someone could clean it up? Sorry.

    What exactly are the limbs of mankind? Does the phrase point to a calamity of sorts?

    “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

    In referring to His own revelation, Baha’u’llah says in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, pg 143-144, “This is the Announcement that hath caused the limbs of mankind to quake, except such as God, the Protector, the Helper, the Succorer, hath willed to exempt.”

    What greater calamity is there than to witness but misinterpret, both individually and collectively, the birth of a new revelation from God and to miss out on its purpose for mankind? By way of example, consider what a better place the world would be if the kings and emperors of Baha’u’llah’s time had indeed responded to His letters and exhortations and convened an assemblage to limit armaments and iron out differences among themselves?

    I have found over the years that a literal reading of Scriptures or reading future events into Scriptures instead of extracting spiritual sustenance from Scriptures does little to keep a healthy depth of field. Just my thoughts.

    Kurt[/quote]

  • Kurt

    Unfortuately, I included Craig Parke’s comment (very funny) with my own. Perhaps someone could clean it up? Sorry.

    What exactly are the limbs of mankind? Does the phrase point to a calamity of sorts?

    “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

    In referring to His own revelation, Baha’u’llah says in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, pg 143-144, “This is the Announcement that hath caused the limbs of mankind to quake, except such as God, the Protector, the Helper, the Succorer, hath willed to exempt.”

    What greater calamity is there than to witness but misinterpret, both individually and collectively, the birth of a new revelation from God and to miss out on its purpose for mankind? By way of example, consider what a better place the world would be if the kings and emperors of Baha’u’llah’s time had indeed responded to His letters and exhortations and convened an assemblage to limit armaments and iron out differences among themselves?

    I have found over the years that a literal reading of Scriptures or reading future events into Scriptures instead of extracting spiritual sustenance from Scriptures does little to keep a healthy depth of field. Just my thoughts.

    Kurt[/quote]

  • Craig Parke

    Kurt,

    I agree with you that if the Baha’is had taken the approach of addressing individual spiritual Armageddon it would have all gone much better. But, alas, the Totalitarian Admin-o-Centric the Faith took itself became a toxic spiritual Armageddon. Throwing gasoline on people and setting them on fire from the top down is not progress on this planet. That is the same old, same old. All spirituality comes from within people. It cannot be manufactured on an assembly line. I had hoped for something much better in the Baha’i Faith over 38 years. But, alas, we were no better than the other appalling organized Abrahamic religions. I do not think the fundamentalist totalitarian mindset can ever be overcome. I am sad to say that, but I see no other outcome. The character arc in the long running feature film of organized religion is from Jesus to Tom??s de Torquemada. The brain chemistry is from a free thinking Hippie Preacher teaching concealed esoteric Cosmic principles via independent investigation of truth to an establishment of a system of brutal top down codified Grand Inquisition. How fast the Baha’i Faith went this route is truly shocking. I do not see any way back now. It is now a shockingly psychologically brutal religion of shameless coercion and intimidation. What Baha’u’llah actually taught is no longer any part of it. They made Shoghi Effendi the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. When that did not work they made the Administrative Order itself the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. And when that did not work they just cut to the chase and made the International Teaching Center/UHJ and the nine lifetime incumbents guaranteed in the closed elective loop the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. It is now a system where no one is held accountable for anything by anyone. I see no other outcome but further and further irrelevance to the real and vital issues facing the planet and eventual total catastrophic collapse. The Baha’is are now the Jehovah’s Witnesses of Shia Islam going door to door in a system of brutal coercion when every other spiritual movement on Earth is communicating the vital ideas and concepts that can save the world via the Internet. But the Administrative order does not want people who can read and think for themselves in it’s system of spiritual communism. It wants desperate, uneducated, poor people who will turn their souls over to nine men in Haifa to do their thinking for them. It wants automatons who can be controlled. This is not the work of the Spirit of the World Age and it is going to fail miserably worldwide no matter how much Groupthink spin they put on it. After 38 years in the Faith I fully believe in the doctrine of the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice of the Baha’i Faith. It was very hard for me to accept it after so many long years of dedicated effort, but by mandating these brutal coercive methods, substituting the Ruhi Courses as the Sacred Holy Scripture of the Faith, and shutting down all consultation in the Baha’i Faith world wide at every level, they have essentially infallibly declared that THE FAITH MUST FAIL EVERYWHERE ON EARTH. My understanding is that the Persian word for “infallibility” is really in a framework of the psychological history of Shia Islam. In no way does “infallibility” mean success in the Western concept of logic since the Renaissance. Infallibility does not in any way mean you will ever be successful in anything. It just means you are “infallible”. It really is a zero sum concept. It was very hard for me to accept their order for infallible destruction, but as a rank and file Baha’i I had to accept it. We all have to accept it. The Faith must be totally destroyed because it is the Will of God and the UHJ has ordered it by lock step mandating these methods worldwide. We must all accept it as part of the Covenant. So it goes.

    As to the “limbs of mankind quaking” I always interpreted that as the invention of nuclear weapons in July 1944 in the desert of New Mexico. But I served in the chain of command of nuclear weapons once and it had a resonance with that experience which scared the living s**t out of me. But few Baha’is these days would ever see it in military weaponry terms now because few Baha’is – if any at all – have ever served in the Armed Forces of any nation as they are exempt as conscientious objectors. Serving and dying in battle is for the little people. The Baha’is are far above them. As former UHJ member Glenford Mitchell said, when they are sent to their death we are “to be quiet and let God do His work.”

    If you weren’t alive or of age in 1962, I suggest you rent the film “Thirteen days” to maybe try to see it from this viewpoint.

    Thanks for you post.

  • Craig Parke

    Kurt,

    I agree with you that if the Baha’is had taken the approach of addressing individual spiritual Armageddon it would have all gone much better. But, alas, the Totalitarian Admin-o-Centric the Faith took itself became a toxic spiritual Armageddon. Throwing gasoline on people and setting them on fire from the top down is not progress on this planet. That is the same old, same old. All spirituality comes from within people. It cannot be manufactured on an assembly line. I had hoped for something much better in the Baha’i Faith over 38 years. But, alas, we were no better than the other appalling organized Abrahamic religions. I do not think the fundamentalist totalitarian mindset can ever be overcome. I am sad to say that, but I see no other outcome. The character arc in the long running feature film of organized religion is from Jesus to Tom??s de Torquemada. The brain chemistry is from a free thinking Hippie Preacher teaching concealed esoteric Cosmic principles via independent investigation of truth to an establishment of a system of brutal top down codified Grand Inquisition. How fast the Baha’i Faith went this route is truly shocking. I do not see any way back now. It is now a shockingly psychologically brutal religion of shameless coercion and intimidation. What Baha’u’llah actually taught is no longer any part of it. They made Shoghi Effendi the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. When that did not work they made the Administrative Order itself the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. And when that did not work they just cut to the chase and made the International Teaching Center/UHJ and the nine lifetime incumbents guaranteed in the closed elective loop the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. It is now a system where no one is held accountable for anything by anyone. I see no other outcome but further and further irrelevance to the real and vital issues facing the planet and eventual total catastrophic collapse. The Baha’is are now the Jehovah’s Witnesses of Shia Islam going door to door in a system of brutal coercion when every other spiritual movement on Earth is communicating the vital ideas and concepts that can save the world via the Internet. But the Administrative order does not want people who can read and think for themselves in it’s system of spiritual communism. It wants desperate, uneducated, poor people who will turn their souls over to nine men in Haifa to do their thinking for them. It wants automatons who can be controlled. This is not the work of the Spirit of the World Age and it is going to fail miserably worldwide no matter how much Groupthink spin they put on it. After 38 years in the Faith I fully believe in the doctrine of the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice of the Baha’i Faith. It was very hard for me to accept it after so many long years of dedicated effort, but by mandating these brutal coercive methods, substituting the Ruhi Courses as the Sacred Holy Scripture of the Faith, and shutting down all consultation in the Baha’i Faith world wide at every level, they have essentially infallibly declared that THE FAITH MUST FAIL EVERYWHERE ON EARTH. My understanding is that the Persian word for “infallibility” is really in a framework of the psychological history of Shia Islam. In no way does “infallibility” mean success in the Western concept of logic since the Renaissance. Infallibility does not in any way mean you will ever be successful in anything. It just means you are “infallible”. It really is a zero sum concept. It was very hard for me to accept their order for infallible destruction, but as a rank and file Baha’i I had to accept it. We all have to accept it. The Faith must be totally destroyed because it is the Will of God and the UHJ has ordered it by lock step mandating these methods worldwide. We must all accept it as part of the Covenant. So it goes.

    As to the “limbs of mankind quaking” I always interpreted that as the invention of nuclear weapons in July 1944 in the desert of New Mexico. But I served in the chain of command of nuclear weapons once and it had a resonance with that experience which scared the living s**t out of me. But few Baha’is these days would ever see it in military weaponry terms now because few Baha’is – if any at all – have ever served in the Armed Forces of any nation as they are exempt as conscientious objectors. Serving and dying in battle is for the little people. The Baha’is are far above them. As former UHJ member Glenford Mitchell said, when they are sent to their death we are “to be quiet and let God do His work.”

    If you weren’t alive or of age in 1962, I suggest you rent the film “Thirteen days” to maybe try to see it from this viewpoint.

    Thanks for you post.

  • farhan

    Baquia wrote:
    This error will, I hope, be corrected in the future. But to stick to the topic at hand, why have Baha’is spontaneously started to give this generic title of ?supreme body? to the House? and does it have any real significance?

    Baquia, our wildest hopes, and those we would never dare imagine will be satisfied in the future Golden Age. At the time being, we are contemplating a small shoot just emerging from the soil and trying to be smart by extrapolating what the leaves, branches, flowers and fruits will look like.

    To start with, we know that that the LSAs and NSAs will disappear and be replaced by the Local and Secondary Houses of Justice. The “house” will refer to local houses of justice, the nacent institutions such as Mashriqu’l-Adhkar and its Dependencies being under its control.

    Why not imagine the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar and its Dependencies, linked with the Institute Process, as the spiritual institutions and the AO as the legal institutions of the coming world Order?? All this will cause the existing institutions to quake, as Baha’u’llah foresees:

    The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed. (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings LXX)

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Baquia wrote:
    This error will, I hope, be corrected in the future. But to stick to the topic at hand, why have Baha’is spontaneously started to give this generic title of ?supreme body? to the House? and does it have any real significance?

    Baquia, our wildest hopes, and those we would never dare imagine will be satisfied in the future Golden Age. At the time being, we are contemplating a small shoot just emerging from the soil and trying to be smart by extrapolating what the leaves, branches, flowers and fruits will look like.

    To start with, we know that that the LSAs and NSAs will disappear and be replaced by the Local and Secondary Houses of Justice. The “house” will refer to local houses of justice, the nacent institutions such as Mashriqu’l-Adhkar and its Dependencies being under its control.

    Why not imagine the Mashriqu’l-Adhkar and its Dependencies, linked with the Institute Process, as the spiritual institutions and the AO as the legal institutions of the coming world Order?? All this will cause the existing institutions to quake, as Baha’u’llah foresees:

    The world’s equilibrium hath been upset through the vibrating influence of this most great, this new World Order. Mankind’s ordered life hath been revolutionized through the agency of this unique, this wondrous System—the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed. (Baha’u’llah, Gleanings LXX)

  • It would help if most of you knew languages. I am disappointed with McGlinn who insists no appelation for the uhj as “supreme body” exists when it is referred to in the Persian writings of Abbas Effendi and his grandson as “maq’ad-i-a’la” (meaning, the supreme/most high place or the supreme seat/most high seat). Shoghi is also referred to by that appleation in his Persian encyclicals. It is bizarre to see some of the theories Sen McGlinn propounds and churns out in his quest to sanitize hos own version of Haifan Bahaism into a palatable Western Liberal project. I recently obtained his book and had to laugh through some of his discussions. He could never get away with a few things he says – especially in his totally bizarre discussion of the writings of the Bab.

    That aside, I am curious as heck as to what you “liberal” Bahaim make of the following pronouncement of Husayn ‘Ali Nuri Baha’ which I have yaken the liberty of translation. The link of the original text is from an official Bahai site uploading officially sanctioned texts published in Iran between the 1950s-1970s. To wit,

    In
    Ma’idih-i-Asmani, vol. 4, page 355

    Translation by Wahid Azal (Jan. 7, 2009)

    Chapter 11
    The Critics of the Cause of God (munkirin-i-amru’llah)

    The Ancient Beauty in the Tablet of Habib from Maragha, which begins with “H B hear the call of God from the direction of the throne by the protective signs/verses (bi-ayati muhayyimin)..etc.” they [i.e. Husayn ‘Ali Nuri] enunciate the command (mi-farmayand) [i.e. state],

    By God, the Truth, whomsoever criticizes it [i.e. Baha’ism], [which is] possessed of the manifest, the brilliant, the high and the perspicuous excellence, it behoveth him to ask his mother [yanbaghi lahu bi-an yas’al min ummihi] about his origins [or ‘state’, i.e.’hal’, meaning he should inquire his mother about his legitimate conception – trans.], for he shall return to the nethermost hell [asfal al-jahim]”…

  • It would help if most of you knew languages. I am disappointed with McGlinn who insists no appelation for the uhj as “supreme body” exists when it is referred to in the Persian writings of Abbas Effendi and his grandson as “maq’ad-i-a’la” (meaning, the supreme/most high place or the supreme seat/most high seat). Shoghi is also referred to by that appleation in his Persian encyclicals. It is bizarre to see some of the theories Sen McGlinn propounds and churns out in his quest to sanitize hos own version of Haifan Bahaism into a palatable Western Liberal project. I recently obtained his book and had to laugh through some of his discussions. He could never get away with a few things he says – especially in his totally bizarre discussion of the writings of the Bab.

    That aside, I am curious as heck as to what you “liberal” Bahaim make of the following pronouncement of Husayn ‘Ali Nuri Baha’ which I have yaken the liberty of translation. The link of the original text is from an official Bahai site uploading officially sanctioned texts published in Iran between the 1950s-1970s. To wit,

    In
    Ma’idih-i-Asmani, vol. 4, page 355

    Translation by Wahid Azal (Jan. 7, 2009)

    Chapter 11
    The Critics of the Cause of God (munkirin-i-amru’llah)

    The Ancient Beauty in the Tablet of Habib from Maragha, which begins with “H B hear the call of God from the direction of the throne by the protective signs/verses (bi-ayati muhayyimin)..etc.” they [i.e. Husayn ‘Ali Nuri] enunciate the command (mi-farmayand) [i.e. state],

    By God, the Truth, whomsoever criticizes it [i.e. Baha’ism], [which is] possessed of the manifest, the brilliant, the high and the perspicuous excellence, it behoveth him to ask his mother [yanbaghi lahu bi-an yas’al min ummihi] about his origins [or ‘state’, i.e.’hal’, meaning he should inquire his mother about his legitimate conception – trans.], for he shall return to the nethermost hell [asfal al-jahim]”…

  • Kurt

    What a strange way of telling someone to go to hell! Hm.

  • Kurt

    What a strange way of telling someone to go to hell! Hm.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=””]What a strange way of telling someone to go to hell! Hm.[/quote]

    I agree. But I certainly marvel at Baha’u’llah’s raw creativity on coming up with this one. I think I will start using it myself!

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=””]What a strange way of telling someone to go to hell! Hm.[/quote]

    I agree. But I certainly marvel at Baha’u’llah’s raw creativity on coming up with this one. I think I will start using it myself!

  • [quote comment=””][quote comment=””]What a strange way of telling someone to go to hell! Hm.[/quote]

    I agree. But I certainly marvel at Baha’u’llah’s raw creativity on coming up with this one. I think I will start using it myself![/quote]

    P-l-e-a-s-e! Raw creativity?! To add insult to enormous injury, his Arabic is simply atrocious and totally unimaginative — and he is writing to a guy in Maragha, i.e. Azari speaking Turks. At least when a Manifestation told off somebody in Arabic They could do it with *real* style, power and sublime literary impact as the Bab did with Hajji Mirza Aqasi three times. Husayn ‘Ali’s is the caniption of common adolescent rabble and couldn’t write like the Bab did if his life depended on it.

    But, then again, he’s your notion of Divinity….

  • [quote comment=””][quote comment=””]What a strange way of telling someone to go to hell! Hm.[/quote]

    I agree. But I certainly marvel at Baha’u’llah’s raw creativity on coming up with this one. I think I will start using it myself![/quote]

    P-l-e-a-s-e! Raw creativity?! To add insult to enormous injury, his Arabic is simply atrocious and totally unimaginative — and he is writing to a guy in Maragha, i.e. Azari speaking Turks. At least when a Manifestation told off somebody in Arabic They could do it with *real* style, power and sublime literary impact as the Bab did with Hajji Mirza Aqasi three times. Husayn ‘Ali’s is the caniption of common adolescent rabble and couldn’t write like the Bab did if his life depended on it.

    But, then again, he’s your notion of Divinity….

  • That text in Ma’idih-ye Asmani, vol. 4, page 355

    has been discussed before, but so far as I know no-one has resolved the problems it poses, and I doubt they can be resolved except by examining the manuscript versions of the tablet.

    Ignoring the problems for now, it says:

    “By God, the True One! Whoever repudiates this manifest, resplendent, exalted, luminous grace; it is incumbent on him to ask his mother [about] his condition, and the day is approaching when he will return to the nethermost fire.”

    Some have understood this as a response to some accusation that Baha’u’llah was not legitimate, or not high-born. They read it as saying
    [it is incumbent on the repudiator to ask Baha’u’llah’s mother about Baha’u’llah’s condition].

    Given that Baha’u’llah’s mother died quite early, and that “he will return to the nethermost fire” refers to the repudiator, not Baha’u’llah, I understand it as meaning

    [it is incumbent on the repudiator to ask his own mother about his own condition].

    But then while we are looking at it that closely, notice that the repudiator is to ask about haallihi, with a double L; whereas my translation above reads it with a single L, i.e., he is to ask about “his condition.” So is this word from the verb HLL, making it a cognate of halaal (as in halal food etc.) and meaning something like “his descent”, or is the double L shown in the text a mistake, in which case the word comes from HWL and means “his condition.” The latter is what one expects to find: haal/condition is a very common word, while haall/descent is not.

    But if we are prepared to ignore that doubling of the L, we are saying in effect that we don’t trust Ishraq-Khavari’s text in every detail. And there are other words in it that with just as small a “jot or tittle” of mistake in the copying could be something else. Ummihi (his mother) is only a punctuation mark different from a’immah, the Imams, and from ummata, the people. So is the doubter to ask his own mother about his own condition/descent, or is he to ask the people about Baha’u’llah’s condition/descent ? Or is he to pray to the imams for guidance?

    Until one or more reliable manuscript can be found, underlying Ishraq-Khavari’s printed version, all I can say is “and God knows best.”

    Sen

  • That text in Ma’idih-ye Asmani, vol. 4, page 355

    has been discussed before, but so far as I know no-one has resolved the problems it poses, and I doubt they can be resolved except by examining the manuscript versions of the tablet.

    Ignoring the problems for now, it says:

    “By God, the True One! Whoever repudiates this manifest, resplendent, exalted, luminous grace; it is incumbent on him to ask his mother [about] his condition, and the day is approaching when he will return to the nethermost fire.”

    Some have understood this as a response to some accusation that Baha’u’llah was not legitimate, or not high-born. They read it as saying
    [it is incumbent on the repudiator to ask Baha’u’llah’s mother about Baha’u’llah’s condition].

    Given that Baha’u’llah’s mother died quite early, and that “he will return to the nethermost fire” refers to the repudiator, not Baha’u’llah, I understand it as meaning

    [it is incumbent on the repudiator to ask his own mother about his own condition].

    But then while we are looking at it that closely, notice that the repudiator is to ask about haallihi, with a double L; whereas my translation above reads it with a single L, i.e., he is to ask about “his condition.” So is this word from the verb HLL, making it a cognate of halaal (as in halal food etc.) and meaning something like “his descent”, or is the double L shown in the text a mistake, in which case the word comes from HWL and means “his condition.” The latter is what one expects to find: haal/condition is a very common word, while haall/descent is not.

    But if we are prepared to ignore that doubling of the L, we are saying in effect that we don’t trust Ishraq-Khavari’s text in every detail. And there are other words in it that with just as small a “jot or tittle” of mistake in the copying could be something else. Ummihi (his mother) is only a punctuation mark different from a’immah, the Imams, and from ummata, the people. So is the doubter to ask his own mother about his own condition/descent, or is he to ask the people about Baha’u’llah’s condition/descent ? Or is he to pray to the imams for guidance?

    Until one or more reliable manuscript can be found, underlying Ishraq-Khavari’s printed version, all I can say is “and God knows best.”

    Sen

  • I am saddened to say that, despite his pretensions to scholarship and Arabic philology, and the fact that he had a brief affiliation with an establishment such as Leiden University, that Sen Mcglinn is far from those epityets. This fact was also demonstrated in his book, esp. where he here and there pontificates on the writings of the Bab and posits some mind-boggling bizarre and untenable interpretations that are not remotely plausible.

    Firstly, as to the translation I made from Ishraq-Khavari’s Ma’idih-i-Asmani, which McGlinn has sought fit to amend here: There is no tashdid/shadda over the word *haal* (i.e. state, origin). I have the original hardcopy publication and there is an ink spot above the laam but it is no identifiable shadda/tashdid, and we are not talking about a mere typographical error but an out and out tiny ink scratch just above the laam. Be that as it may, even with the shadda/tashdid this merely intensifies the meaning. The masdar/root of the word haal here is not derived from the cognate halaal (which is itself a participle of h-l) but from h-w-l. It appears that McGlinn has looked up the root in his copy of Hans Wehr – and glansing over the first entry on the root h-l which means to ‘untie, unbind, unravel, undo – has then concluded the meaning of the root and its derived form here from its cognate “halaal — which incidentally (i.e. halaal), had McGlinn kept looking down the entry in his copy of Hans Weher, also explicitly denotes “legitimacy.”

    Be that as it may, that is not the specific tense of the word here. ‘Haal’ here is in the verbal noun construct form of h-w-l. ‘Haalahu’, or ‘Haalihi’ (in the genitive case, with the masculine pronominal enclictic, following the preposition “min” as it occurs here) merely means “his state” or “his origin” but with the clear and umistakable implication of “his legitimacy” in regard to “his birth” and “parentage”. This is how people understand this word and its sense in the Arab world and it is how people who read, write and speak Arabic amongst educated Persians understand the word and its sense. I am sure any reputable Arabic linguist worth their salt – whether with the shadda marker or without it – will point out that McGlinn’s assertion then that “The latter is what one expects to find: haal/condition is a very common word, while haall/descent is not,” seriously begs questions in regard to what is actually being said and the tense in which it is being said.

    On his point regarding ummihi/his mother and a’immah, there is not merely a ‘punctuation’ mark of difference (and what in the world is the word _punctuation_ doing here vis-a-vis letters of the Arabic alphabet?). Umm/mother is spelled alif mim and a’immah (being the plural of Imam) is spelled alif, the seat of hamza’, mim and ta marbuta. These words on their own mean completely different things and their singular and plurals are formed differently, nor is there a single “punctuation mark” in difference! BTW the points of the Arabic-Persian letters or seats of hamza’ are NOT punctuation marks. So it is a glaring and embarrasing error on McGlinn’s part to state that there is only a difference of a “single punctuation mark.” No there isn’t a single difference. There is a lot more than that. Besides the -hi here is the pronominal enclitic attached to the word, i.e. the “his”. -hi is attached to the word as the pronominal qualifier; it is not the word itself.

    Besides what in the world would it even mean for someone to state to someone living in a Shi’ite society of Azeri Turks in Maragha in the nineteenth century ‘to go ask your Imam about your condition/state of legitimacy’, which is what McGlinn is implying? The sense here is pretty clear and unequivocal, whatever intellectual contortions certain Bahai intellectuals deign to perform. Husayn ‘Ali Nuri is blankly stating unequivocally that whosoever criticizes his creed is a “son of a whore.” It is as simple and straightforward as that. If McGlinn believes otherwise, even with Husayn ‘Ali’s shoddy Arabic, I invite him to submit this piece both to a native Arab as well as an expert in the language and let us get results from them.

    Also, regarding the translation McGlinn posits of the final passage “…and the day is approaching when he will return to the nethermost fire.? There is no word ‘day’ here (yawm, ayyam) and the word “jahim” explicitly denotes the word “hell” (it is also a contraction of “jahanam” which means _hell_) and not just fire (nar, nayyran). Why the desire to sanitize “hell” into “fire” is beyond me!
    The passages states in the original “fa-sawfa yarji’ ila asfal al-jahim” which is how I have rendered it as “for [or ‘and’] he shall return to the nethermost [or ‘lowest’] hell.”

    Indeed Allahu A’lam! Yet this isn’t the only instance of embarrassing gaffs on the part of Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri Baha’. In the Kitab-i-Badi’ (which no one wishes amongst Bahais to translate in full lest the Beast be truly revealed for what he was) he explicitly calls the temporary wife (sigheh/muta’) of the Bab (whose circumstances he elsewhere laments and sheds crocodile tears regarding) a “slut”! Does McGlinn wish to leave that question open ended as well and attempt to pull philological implications where none exist? Elsewhere in that same book he characterizes the Bayani detractors of his claim to being man yuzhiruhu’Llah/He whom the Godhead shall make Manifest in the most vile and ugly terms. In fact it was the language of this very book and the subsequent “tablets” of Husayn ‘Ali Nuri which initiated the Baha’i blood-bath against Bayanis in Baghdad, Edirne and finally in Acre.

    And, while we’re here, let us not forget McGlinn’s conspicuous silence regarding Husayn ‘Ali Nuri’s end-of-life “Tablet of O Creator of all Creation” (lawh mubdi’ kulli badi’) whose translation I made submitted back in 2005 wherein Husayn ‘Ali Nuri trips over himself and all but says that he is not the man yuzhiruhu’Llah/He whom the Godhead shall make Manifest of the Bayan. And we have not even ventured into the terrain of his Baghdad era letters and epistles wherein he proclaims total subservience to Subh-i-Azal as the Mirror of the Primal Point and states matter of factly that the Parousia or Manifestation of the Point qua He whom the Godhead shall make Manifest will not occur until Mustaghath (2001). If Mr McGlinn wishes I am quite happy to furnish him once again with facsimiles of all the originals of these epistles and letters by Husayn ‘Ali Nuri and allow him to contextualize those to his heart’s content.

    To conclude, it is understandable that such material is shocking and unsettling to some Bahais. But it is material that the founder of Bahaism did state and utter despite the contortions to explain them away by his modern followers. Contrary to the sanitized image of a “Baha’u’llah” as a (post)modern archetypal Jesus-figure in Persian garb, which the liberal Bahai sect is determined to pursue, the true facts of the matter are that Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri was a profoundly closed minded, bigotted and violent figure, who did not mince his words or halt his pen, and whose own vision of his creed is not too indifferent or dissimilar to the sort of religious Stalinist cult erected by the official Haifan creed standing today. That said, to quote the eternal words of Shaykh Ahmad Ruhi,

    agar Husayn ‘Ali mazhar-i-Husayn-i-‘Alist
    hezar rahmat-i-haqq bar ravaan-i-paak-i-Yazid.

    If Husayn Ali be the manifestation of the Husayn of ‘Ali
    A thousand mercies of God be upon the pure soul of Yazid!

    Wahid Azal

  • I am saddened to say that, despite his pretensions to scholarship and Arabic philology, and the fact that he had a brief affiliation with an establishment such as Leiden University, that Sen Mcglinn is far from those epityets. This fact was also demonstrated in his book, esp. where he here and there pontificates on the writings of the Bab and posits some mind-boggling bizarre and untenable interpretations that are not remotely plausible.

    Firstly, as to the translation I made from Ishraq-Khavari’s Ma’idih-i-Asmani, which McGlinn has sought fit to amend here: There is no tashdid/shadda over the word *haal* (i.e. state, origin). I have the original hardcopy publication and there is an ink spot above the laam but it is no identifiable shadda/tashdid, and we are not talking about a mere typographical error but an out and out tiny ink scratch just above the laam. Be that as it may, even with the shadda/tashdid this merely intensifies the meaning. The masdar/root of the word haal here is not derived from the cognate halaal (which is itself a participle of h-l) but from h-w-l. It appears that McGlinn has looked up the root in his copy of Hans Wehr – and glansing over the first entry on the root h-l which means to ‘untie, unbind, unravel, undo – has then concluded the meaning of the root and its derived form here from its cognate “halaal — which incidentally (i.e. halaal), had McGlinn kept looking down the entry in his copy of Hans Weher, also explicitly denotes “legitimacy.”

    Be that as it may, that is not the specific tense of the word here. ‘Haal’ here is in the verbal noun construct form of h-w-l. ‘Haalahu’, or ‘Haalihi’ (in the genitive case, with the masculine pronominal enclictic, following the preposition “min” as it occurs here) merely means “his state” or “his origin” but with the clear and umistakable implication of “his legitimacy” in regard to “his birth” and “parentage”. This is how people understand this word and its sense in the Arab world and it is how people who read, write and speak Arabic amongst educated Persians understand the word and its sense. I am sure any reputable Arabic linguist worth their salt – whether with the shadda marker or without it – will point out that McGlinn’s assertion then that “The latter is what one expects to find: haal/condition is a very common word, while haall/descent is not,” seriously begs questions in regard to what is actually being said and the tense in which it is being said.

    On his point regarding ummihi/his mother and a’immah, there is not merely a ‘punctuation’ mark of difference (and what in the world is the word _punctuation_ doing here vis-a-vis letters of the Arabic alphabet?). Umm/mother is spelled alif mim and a’immah (being the plural of Imam) is spelled alif, the seat of hamza’, mim and ta marbuta. These words on their own mean completely different things and their singular and plurals are formed differently, nor is there a single “punctuation mark” in difference! BTW the points of the Arabic-Persian letters or seats of hamza’ are NOT punctuation marks. So it is a glaring and embarrasing error on McGlinn’s part to state that there is only a difference of a “single punctuation mark.” No there isn’t a single difference. There is a lot more than that. Besides the -hi here is the pronominal enclitic attached to the word, i.e. the “his”. -hi is attached to the word as the pronominal qualifier; it is not the word itself.

    Besides what in the world would it even mean for someone to state to someone living in a Shi’ite society of Azeri Turks in Maragha in the nineteenth century ‘to go ask your Imam about your condition/state of legitimacy’, which is what McGlinn is implying? The sense here is pretty clear and unequivocal, whatever intellectual contortions certain Bahai intellectuals deign to perform. Husayn ‘Ali Nuri is blankly stating unequivocally that whosoever criticizes his creed is a “son of a whore.” It is as simple and straightforward as that. If McGlinn believes otherwise, even with Husayn ‘Ali’s shoddy Arabic, I invite him to submit this piece both to a native Arab as well as an expert in the language and let us get results from them.

    Also, regarding the translation McGlinn posits of the final passage “…and the day is approaching when he will return to the nethermost fire.? There is no word ‘day’ here (yawm, ayyam) and the word “jahim” explicitly denotes the word “hell” (it is also a contraction of “jahanam” which means _hell_) and not just fire (nar, nayyran). Why the desire to sanitize “hell” into “fire” is beyond me!
    The passages states in the original “fa-sawfa yarji’ ila asfal al-jahim” which is how I have rendered it as “for [or ‘and’] he shall return to the nethermost [or ‘lowest’] hell.”

    Indeed Allahu A’lam! Yet this isn’t the only instance of embarrassing gaffs on the part of Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri Baha’. In the Kitab-i-Badi’ (which no one wishes amongst Bahais to translate in full lest the Beast be truly revealed for what he was) he explicitly calls the temporary wife (sigheh/muta’) of the Bab (whose circumstances he elsewhere laments and sheds crocodile tears regarding) a “slut”! Does McGlinn wish to leave that question open ended as well and attempt to pull philological implications where none exist? Elsewhere in that same book he characterizes the Bayani detractors of his claim to being man yuzhiruhu’Llah/He whom the Godhead shall make Manifest in the most vile and ugly terms. In fact it was the language of this very book and the subsequent “tablets” of Husayn ‘Ali Nuri which initiated the Baha’i blood-bath against Bayanis in Baghdad, Edirne and finally in Acre.

    And, while we’re here, let us not forget McGlinn’s conspicuous silence regarding Husayn ‘Ali Nuri’s end-of-life “Tablet of O Creator of all Creation” (lawh mubdi’ kulli badi’) whose translation I made submitted back in 2005 wherein Husayn ‘Ali Nuri trips over himself and all but says that he is not the man yuzhiruhu’Llah/He whom the Godhead shall make Manifest of the Bayan. And we have not even ventured into the terrain of his Baghdad era letters and epistles wherein he proclaims total subservience to Subh-i-Azal as the Mirror of the Primal Point and states matter of factly that the Parousia or Manifestation of the Point qua He whom the Godhead shall make Manifest will not occur until Mustaghath (2001). If Mr McGlinn wishes I am quite happy to furnish him once again with facsimiles of all the originals of these epistles and letters by Husayn ‘Ali Nuri and allow him to contextualize those to his heart’s content.

    To conclude, it is understandable that such material is shocking and unsettling to some Bahais. But it is material that the founder of Bahaism did state and utter despite the contortions to explain them away by his modern followers. Contrary to the sanitized image of a “Baha’u’llah” as a (post)modern archetypal Jesus-figure in Persian garb, which the liberal Bahai sect is determined to pursue, the true facts of the matter are that Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri was a profoundly closed minded, bigotted and violent figure, who did not mince his words or halt his pen, and whose own vision of his creed is not too indifferent or dissimilar to the sort of religious Stalinist cult erected by the official Haifan creed standing today. That said, to quote the eternal words of Shaykh Ahmad Ruhi,

    agar Husayn ‘Ali mazhar-i-Husayn-i-‘Alist
    hezar rahmat-i-haqq bar ravaan-i-paak-i-Yazid.

    If Husayn Ali be the manifestation of the Husayn of ‘Ali
    A thousand mercies of God be upon the pure soul of Yazid!

    Wahid Azal

  • farhan

    Sen wrote:
    Ummihi (his mother) is only a punctuation mark different from a’immah, the Imams, and from ummata, the people.

    Sen, you remind me of the pharmacist reading my prescriptions.

    If he wants to help the patient, he understands that in the context of my prescription, only certain products are relevant, and he manages to read my hand writing, and occasionally gives me a ring to clarify an eventual detail.

    If he wants to make the patient understand that I am a bad doctor, he starts a hair-splitting analysis of my punctuation, and then refuses the prescription as unreadable.

    This is what I call sophism (the term is perhaps less pejorative in French than in English) as opposed to the simple, practical philosophy or theology I need for a good medical practice and which I tried to explain to Steve.

  • Farhan Yazdani

    Sen wrote:
    Ummihi (his mother) is only a punctuation mark different from a’immah, the Imams, and from ummata, the people.

    Sen, you remind me of the pharmacist reading my prescriptions.

    If he wants to help the patient, he understands that in the context of my prescription, only certain products are relevant, and he manages to read my hand writing, and occasionally gives me a ring to clarify an eventual detail.

    If he wants to make the patient understand that I am a bad doctor, he starts a hair-splitting analysis of my punctuation, and then refuses the prescription as unreadable.

    This is what I call sophism (the term is perhaps less pejorative in French than in English) as opposed to the simple, practical philosophy or theology I need for a good medical practice and which I tried to explain to Steve.

  • Andrew

    [quote]O Creator of all that hath been created!

    This is that which hath been sent down from the primeval heaven and in it is established the station of excellence wherein is made apparent the beauty of God on the throne of the name of might. And verily he is the Promised One mentioned by every name in all the tablets, if ye be of those who know. In the Bayan he was named He who shall appear and he shall [indeed] be manifested in mustaghath with sovereign distinction. Say, by God, this is the day the like of which hath not been witnessed by the eyes of the unseen, let alone those who are of the veiled. So praised be to the one who is present on that day between my divine hands with an invulnerable submissiveness and recites this tablet in front of that throne so that God may hear his melodies which were revealed from before between the heavens and the earths; and, by this, the name hath been mentioned in the place wherein God hath made holy in all that is mentioned in the worlds. Verily in this tablet we have not desired to mention this but that it is my own self, the protector of the worlds. [And] whosoever anticipates another revelation after me, verily he is of those who have gone astray, for verily he who shall appear after one-thousand [years], indeed he will speak in my name; and he shall come in mustaghath, testifying in my name in that I am God, the lord of the heavens and the earths. None hath understood this revelation other than a few, for he is cognizant of all things. Hold fast after me, O people, to the branches which have branched from the ancient root. By them the fragrant scents of my garment are wafted among the worlds, and [none] shall find it except [those who] turn to the straight [path]. It behoveth thee, O people of Baha’, to hold steadfast in the cause of God in your days in every state and [thereby safeguard yourselves] from following every ignorant sinner. And after the branches, for the pious servant present in front of this throne, [we have made] an elevated station. It behoveth thee to account the family from amongst who the beloved of the worlds appeared with the highest respect: Of those who have believed in God, the dearly precious, the praised. Likewise was it revealed in the Bayan and in this luminous tablet. Whoever turns away from them, verily he is among the infidels and those who associated partners with God and among those who have lost, unless he turn and repent, for verily he is the forgiver, the merciful.[/quote]

    Ghormeh Sabzi

    1 large yellow onion, finely chopped
    1 tsp. turmeric
    1 boneless chuck roast or 1.5 lbs of lamb stew
    1 c. green onions, green parts only, finely chopped
    1.5 c. spinach, finely chopped
    1/2 c. Italian flat-leaf parsley, finely chopped
    1/4 c. cilantro leaves, finely chopped
    1/4 c. chives or scallion tops, finely chopped
    1/4 c. fenugreek leaves, finely chopped
    juice from one lemon
    4-5 dried persian limes, leemoo-amonee
    1 can red kidney beans

    Saute the onion over medium-high heat in a couple of tablespoons of canola oil until it is a deep golden brown. This is called piaz-daagh. Add the turmeric, frying another minute or two, then add the stew meat. Toss well to coat in turmeric, and cook until the meat is browned well on all sides.

    Meanwhile, fry the herbs in a splash of canola oil until they are fragrant and deepening in color. Watch them carefully as they will go bitter if burned. You want them to be a deep, dark green without blackening.

    Add the fried greens to the meat and onion mixture, stirring well. Add 1.5 – 2 cups of water (you want a “slurry”, but not “soupy” mixture). Season with salt and pepper to taste (easy on the pepper). Add the lemon juice, turn the heat down, and let the whole thing simmer, covered, for 1.5-2 hours, or until the greens are mostly softened. (Note: if you are using dried beans, you will want to add them at this point)

    About an hour into the simmer, add the leemoo-amonee (any sooner and they will turn the stew bitter), pushing them down into the liquid. They will want to pop back up, so try to cover them with a few pieces of meat to keep them submerged.

    Finally, add the drained kidney beans, and cook another 30 minutes. Check your seasoning level, adding more lemon juice if needed (before you do, though, press down on the dried limes to get them to release the liquid they’ve absorbed)

    Serve with Polow or lavash bread.

    Bon app?tit!

  • Andrew

    [quote]O Creator of all that hath been created!

    This is that which hath been sent down from the primeval heaven and in it is established the station of excellence wherein is made apparent the beauty of God on the throne of the name of might. And verily he is the Promised One mentioned by every name in all the tablets, if ye be of those who know. In the Bayan he was named He who shall appear and he shall [indeed] be manifested in mustaghath with sovereign distinction. Say, by God, this is the day the like of which hath not been witnessed by the eyes of the unseen, let alone those who are of the veiled. So praised be to the one who is present on that day between my divine hands with an invulnerable submissiveness and recites this tablet in front of that throne so that God may hear his melodies which were revealed from before between the heavens and the earths; and, by this, the name hath been mentioned in the place wherein God hath made holy in all that is mentioned in the worlds. Verily in this tablet we have not desired to mention this but that it is my own self, the protector of the worlds. [And] whosoever anticipates another revelation after me, verily he is of those who have gone astray, for verily he who shall appear after one-thousand [years], indeed he will speak in my name; and he shall come in mustaghath, testifying in my name in that I am God, the lord of the heavens and the earths. None hath understood this revelation other than a few, for he is cognizant of all things. Hold fast after me, O people, to the branches which have branched from the ancient root. By them the fragrant scents of my garment are wafted among the worlds, and [none] shall find it except [those who] turn to the straight [path]. It behoveth thee, O people of Baha’, to hold steadfast in the cause of God in your days in every state and [thereby safeguard yourselves] from following every ignorant sinner. And after the branches, for the pious servant present in front of this throne, [we have made] an elevated station. It behoveth thee to account the family from amongst who the beloved of the worlds appeared with the highest respect: Of those who have believed in God, the dearly precious, the praised. Likewise was it revealed in the Bayan and in this luminous tablet. Whoever turns away from them, verily he is among the infidels and those who associated partners with God and among those who have lost, unless he turn and repent, for verily he is the forgiver, the merciful.[/quote]

    Ghormeh Sabzi

    1 large yellow onion, finely chopped
    1 tsp. turmeric
    1 boneless chuck roast or 1.5 lbs of lamb stew
    1 c. green onions, green parts only, finely chopped
    1.5 c. spinach, finely chopped
    1/2 c. Italian flat-leaf parsley, finely chopped
    1/4 c. cilantro leaves, finely chopped
    1/4 c. chives or scallion tops, finely chopped
    1/4 c. fenugreek leaves, finely chopped
    juice from one lemon
    4-5 dried persian limes, leemoo-amonee
    1 can red kidney beans

    Saute the onion over medium-high heat in a couple of tablespoons of canola oil until it is a deep golden brown. This is called piaz-daagh. Add the turmeric, frying another minute or two, then add the stew meat. Toss well to coat in turmeric, and cook until the meat is browned well on all sides.

    Meanwhile, fry the herbs in a splash of canola oil until they are fragrant and deepening in color. Watch them carefully as they will go bitter if burned. You want them to be a deep, dark green without blackening.

    Add the fried greens to the meat and onion mixture, stirring well. Add 1.5 – 2 cups of water (you want a “slurry”, but not “soupy” mixture). Season with salt and pepper to taste (easy on the pepper). Add the lemon juice, turn the heat down, and let the whole thing simmer, covered, for 1.5-2 hours, or until the greens are mostly softened. (Note: if you are using dried beans, you will want to add them at this point)

    About an hour into the simmer, add the leemoo-amonee (any sooner and they will turn the stew bitter), pushing them down into the liquid. They will want to pop back up, so try to cover them with a few pieces of meat to keep them submerged.

    Finally, add the drained kidney beans, and cook another 30 minutes. Check your seasoning level, adding more lemon juice if needed (before you do, though, press down on the dried limes to get them to release the liquid they’ve absorbed)

    Serve with Polow or lavash bread.

    Bon app?tit!

  • The Tablet of O Creator of O Creation posted by Mr “Carter” was lifted by Badi Villar Cardenas from a translation I made, presumably from the translation he claims was made by Moshe Sharon (the voice appearing in the movie BAHAIS IN MY BACKYARD denying the existence of the relatives of Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri]. Here is my translation which is more accurate than the sanitized translation of Sharon-qua-Cardenas:

    O Creator of all that hath been created!

    This is that which hath been sent down from the primeval heaven and in it is established the station of excellence wherein is made apparent the beauty of God on the throne of the name of might. And verily he is the Promised One mentioned by every name in all the tablets, if ye be of those who know. In the Bayan he was named He who shall appear9 and he shall [indeed] be manifested in mustaghath with sovereign distinction. Say, by God, this is the day the like of which hath not been witnessed by the eyes of the unseen, let alone those who are of the veiled. So praised be to the one who is present on that day between my divine hands with an invulnerable submissiveness and recites this tablet in front of that throne so that God may hear his melodies which were revealed from before between the heavens and the earths; and, by this, the name hath been mentioned in the place wherein God hath made holy in all that is mentioned in the worlds. Verily in this tablet we have not desired to mention this but that it is my own self, the protector of the worlds. [And] whosoever anticipates another revelation after me, verily he is of those who have gone astray, for verily he who
    shall appear after one-thousand [years], indeed he will speak in my
    name; and he shall come in mustaghath, testifying in my name in that I am God, the lord of the heavens and the earths. None hath understood this revelation other than a few, for he is cognizant of all things.

    Hold fast after me, O people, to the branches which have branched from the ancient root. By them the fragrant scents of my garment are wafted among the worlds, and [none] shall find it except [those who] turn to the straight [path]. It behoveth thee, O people of Baha’, to hold steadfast in the cause of God in your days in every state and [thereby safeguard yourselves] from following every ignorant sinner. And after the branches, for the pious servant present in front of this throne, [we have made] an elevated station. It behoveth thee to account the family from amongst who the beloved of the worlds appeared with the highest respect: Of those who have believed in God, the dearly precious, the praised. Likewise was it revealed in the Bayan and in this luminous tablet. Whoever turns away from them, verily he is among the infidels and those who associated partners with God and among those who have lost, unless he turn and repent, for verily he is the forgiver, the merciful.

    Also thank you for the ghormeh sabzi recipe. Here is an implement you can use for your personal consumption of the final product, Mr “Carter”, or shall I say Mr Siete Truenos:
    http://www.incarolscare.com/photos/colonic%20room.jpg

    W

  • The Tablet of O Creator of O Creation posted by Mr “Carter” was lifted by Badi Villar Cardenas from a translation I made, presumably from the translation he claims was made by Moshe Sharon (the voice appearing in the movie BAHAIS IN MY BACKYARD denying the existence of the relatives of Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri]. Here is my translation which is more accurate than the sanitized translation of Sharon-qua-Cardenas:

    O Creator of all that hath been created!

    This is that which hath been sent down from the primeval heaven and in it is established the station of excellence wherein is made apparent the beauty of God on the throne of the name of might. And verily he is the Promised One mentioned by every name in all the tablets, if ye be of those who know. In the Bayan he was named He who shall appear9 and he shall [indeed] be manifested in mustaghath with sovereign distinction. Say, by God, this is the day the like of which hath not been witnessed by the eyes of the unseen, let alone those who are of the veiled. So praised be to the one who is present on that day between my divine hands with an invulnerable submissiveness and recites this tablet in front of that throne so that God may hear his melodies which were revealed from before between the heavens and the earths; and, by this, the name hath been mentioned in the place wherein God hath made holy in all that is mentioned in the worlds. Verily in this tablet we have not desired to mention this but that it is my own self, the protector of the worlds. [And] whosoever anticipates another revelation after me, verily he is of those who have gone astray, for verily he who
    shall appear after one-thousand [years], indeed he will speak in my
    name; and he shall come in mustaghath, testifying in my name in that I am God, the lord of the heavens and the earths. None hath understood this revelation other than a few, for he is cognizant of all things.

    Hold fast after me, O people, to the branches which have branched from the ancient root. By them the fragrant scents of my garment are wafted among the worlds, and [none] shall find it except [those who] turn to the straight [path]. It behoveth thee, O people of Baha’, to hold steadfast in the cause of God in your days in every state and [thereby safeguard yourselves] from following every ignorant sinner. And after the branches, for the pious servant present in front of this throne, [we have made] an elevated station. It behoveth thee to account the family from amongst who the beloved of the worlds appeared with the highest respect: Of those who have believed in God, the dearly precious, the praised. Likewise was it revealed in the Bayan and in this luminous tablet. Whoever turns away from them, verily he is among the infidels and those who associated partners with God and among those who have lost, unless he turn and repent, for verily he is the forgiver, the merciful.

    Also thank you for the ghormeh sabzi recipe. Here is an implement you can use for your personal consumption of the final product, Mr “Carter”, or shall I say Mr Siete Truenos:
    http://www.incarolscare.com/photos/colonic%20room.jpg

    W

  • Andrew

    [quote]The Tablet of O Creator of O Creation posted by Mr ?Carter? was lifted by Badi Villar Cardenas from a translation I made, presumably from the translation he claims was made by Moshe Sharon (the voice appearing in the movie BAHAIS IN MY BACKYARD denying the existence of the relatives of Mirza Husayn ?Ali Nuri]. Here is my translation which is more accurate than the sanitized translation of Sharon-qua-Cardenas:[/quote]

    Hello there Cracker!

    Actually, the translation I posted above *is* your translation, which can be found here:

    http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Talk/talk.religion.bahai/2007-04/msg00096.html

    Yes, of course I’m Siete Truenos, and you’re the cosmic flatulence of the celestial beans in the ghormeh sabzi: thus the recipe, in honor of your odiferous emanations; for verily art Thou the Emanation of God for this Age!

  • Andrew

    [quote]The Tablet of O Creator of O Creation posted by Mr ?Carter? was lifted by Badi Villar Cardenas from a translation I made, presumably from the translation he claims was made by Moshe Sharon (the voice appearing in the movie BAHAIS IN MY BACKYARD denying the existence of the relatives of Mirza Husayn ?Ali Nuri]. Here is my translation which is more accurate than the sanitized translation of Sharon-qua-Cardenas:[/quote]

    Hello there Cracker!

    Actually, the translation I posted above *is* your translation, which can be found here:

    http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Talk/talk.religion.bahai/2007-04/msg00096.html

    Yes, of course I’m Siete Truenos, and you’re the cosmic flatulence of the celestial beans in the ghormeh sabzi: thus the recipe, in honor of your odiferous emanations; for verily art Thou the Emanation of God for this Age!

  • “You have arisen to do the bidding of God’s Sign on earth, the Universal House of Justice…”
    Post-London Regional Baha’i conference blog

    I’ve heard of Shoghi Effendi as the Sign of God and there are places in the Baha’i writings where the Sign of God is equated with the revelation. But the House as God’s Sign on earth?

    That’s new.

  • “You have arisen to do the bidding of God’s Sign on earth, the Universal House of Justice…”
    Post-London Regional Baha’i conference blog

    I’ve heard of Shoghi Effendi as the Sign of God and there are places in the Baha’i writings where the Sign of God is equated with the revelation. But the House as God’s Sign on earth?

    That’s new.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=””]”You have arisen to do the bidding of God’s Sign on earth, the Universal House of Justice…”
    Post-London Regional Baha’i conference blog

    I’ve heard of Shoghi Effendi as the Sign of God and there are places in the Baha’i writings where the Sign of God is equated with the revelation. But the House as God’s Sign on earth?

    That’s new.[/quote]

    That exact phrase was used by an ABM in a discussion with me five years ago. This is the NEWTHINK. The Universal House of Justice IS the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. Anything Baha’u’llah had to say about balance and perspective is no longer in favor. All quotes used will be fanatical and lock step totalitarian. And since all UHJ members will henceforth and forever ALWAYS come from the International Teaching Center in an ENDLESS TOP DOWN COMPLETELY CLOSED “electoral” loop for all eternity, the theorist class of the International Teaching Center IS essentially the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age for all practical purposes. What they create as their theoretical paper plans is Holy Writ. What they discuss at lunch is Holy Writ. What they say goes. So everybody had better get used to it. It is the top down, iron fisted, COMINTERN FAITH. It is the NEWTHINK and NEWTHINK rules. Anyone still in OLDTHINK will be sent to the reeducation camps.

    But don’t worry, Counselor Member of the International Teaching Centre Ms. Uransaikhan Baatar does not have the right chromosomes to ever be a member of the Universal House of Justice. With these kinds of Brooks Brothers corporate skills maybe she can get a job at Citibank.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=””]”You have arisen to do the bidding of God’s Sign on earth, the Universal House of Justice…”
    Post-London Regional Baha’i conference blog

    I’ve heard of Shoghi Effendi as the Sign of God and there are places in the Baha’i writings where the Sign of God is equated with the revelation. But the House as God’s Sign on earth?

    That’s new.[/quote]

    That exact phrase was used by an ABM in a discussion with me five years ago. This is the NEWTHINK. The Universal House of Justice IS the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age. Anything Baha’u’llah had to say about balance and perspective is no longer in favor. All quotes used will be fanatical and lock step totalitarian. And since all UHJ members will henceforth and forever ALWAYS come from the International Teaching Center in an ENDLESS TOP DOWN COMPLETELY CLOSED “electoral” loop for all eternity, the theorist class of the International Teaching Center IS essentially the Supreme Manifestation of God for this World Age for all practical purposes. What they create as their theoretical paper plans is Holy Writ. What they discuss at lunch is Holy Writ. What they say goes. So everybody had better get used to it. It is the top down, iron fisted, COMINTERN FAITH. It is the NEWTHINK and NEWTHINK rules. Anyone still in OLDTHINK will be sent to the reeducation camps.

    But don’t worry, Counselor Member of the International Teaching Centre Ms. Uransaikhan Baatar does not have the right chromosomes to ever be a member of the Universal House of Justice. With these kinds of Brooks Brothers corporate skills maybe she can get a job at Citibank.

  • Grover

    Hmmmm, Baha’is aren’t terribly original. They’re very good at parroting institutional rhetoric. I suspect he has regurgitated phrases used by the counsellors at the London conference. A case of institutional divine inflation?

  • Grover

    Hmmmm, Baha’is aren’t terribly original. They’re very good at parroting institutional rhetoric. I suspect he has regurgitated phrases used by the counsellors at the London conference. A case of institutional divine inflation?

  • Hello Lobo/Mamdouh! It appears that my uncovering of your many masks of deceit and play acting has gotten you and your Damkaric friends in Vancouver in a real knot or three. Speaking of flatulence, old man, let’s take a look at the following.

    You have claimed to have once been a Bahai and to presently head a Bahaim Sufi Tariqa called the Baha’iyya. But in 2006, in an article that could’ve been written by the Neo-Con think-tank Project for the New American Century (on a site actually accused of being funded by a Washington based conservative anti-Islamic propaganda foundation masquerading as something else), you identify yourself as a universalist Sufi,
    http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/reflections/

    Inquiries made in Vancouver, Canada, amongst people who get around in the alternative spiritual communities and know people, show that no such outfit as the Tariqa Baha’iyya formally exists outside of the interview you gave to Steve Marshall claiming it. And while an artist known as Andrew Carter exists in the greater Vancouver metro area, no Andrew Carter exists who is a former Bahai, universalist Sufi heading a Tariqa Baha’iyya with Iranian Sufi friends who have deep knowledge of Zarathushtrian scriptures and who is a descendent of the astrologer CEO Carter.

    However there is someone along those lines that is connected through the greater BC Golden Dawn community, and specifically, one of its offshoots formerly calling itself the Angelic College of Damkar, but their name is not Andrew Carter. One of the co-founders of the aforementioned Angelic College is a Baha’i, and former members who have since left that outfit have claimed that a heavy Baha’i bias abides in the material being sanitized and tought over there.

    Your heated and unexplainable animosity towards me, beginning with your unsolited email, proves that you are a hack tied to the very foundation(s) in league with the devil which I am determied to efface from terra firma. I will find you out together with what your agenda is about and I will crucify you when I do, however long it takes me to do it, “Andrew Carter.” Take that to the bank with you. That is a promise from Mirat’ullah! And say hello to Nineveh/Mamdouh for me 😉

    And speaking of flatulence: I have one name for that, Starr Saffa!

    W

  • Hello Lobo/Mamdouh! It appears that my uncovering of your many masks of deceit and play acting has gotten you and your Damkaric friends in Vancouver in a real knot or three. Speaking of flatulence, old man, let’s take a look at the following.

    You have claimed to have once been a Bahai and to presently head a Bahaim Sufi Tariqa called the Baha’iyya. But in 2006, in an article that could’ve been written by the Neo-Con think-tank Project for the New American Century (on a site actually accused of being funded by a Washington based conservative anti-Islamic propaganda foundation masquerading as something else), you identify yourself as a universalist Sufi,
    http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/reflections/

    Inquiries made in Vancouver, Canada, amongst people who get around in the alternative spiritual communities and know people, show that no such outfit as the Tariqa Baha’iyya formally exists outside of the interview you gave to Steve Marshall claiming it. And while an artist known as Andrew Carter exists in the greater Vancouver metro area, no Andrew Carter exists who is a former Bahai, universalist Sufi heading a Tariqa Baha’iyya with Iranian Sufi friends who have deep knowledge of Zarathushtrian scriptures and who is a descendent of the astrologer CEO Carter.

    However there is someone along those lines that is connected through the greater BC Golden Dawn community, and specifically, one of its offshoots formerly calling itself the Angelic College of Damkar, but their name is not Andrew Carter. One of the co-founders of the aforementioned Angelic College is a Baha’i, and former members who have since left that outfit have claimed that a heavy Baha’i bias abides in the material being sanitized and tought over there.

    Your heated and unexplainable animosity towards me, beginning with your unsolited email, proves that you are a hack tied to the very foundation(s) in league with the devil which I am determied to efface from terra firma. I will find you out together with what your agenda is about and I will crucify you when I do, however long it takes me to do it, “Andrew Carter.” Take that to the bank with you. That is a promise from Mirat’ullah! And say hello to Nineveh/Mamdouh for me 😉

    And speaking of flatulence: I have one name for that, Starr Saffa!

    W

  • Andrew

    Nice try! No score!

    [quote]You have claimed to have once been a Bahai and to presently head a Bahaim Sufi Tariqa called the Baha’iyya.[/quote]

    Where, precisely, did I claim to “have once been a Bahai”?

    Where, precisely, have I ever claimed to “head” (presently or otherwise) a Sufi Tariqa?

    Please cite specific references.

    [quote]Inquiries made in Vancouver, Canada, amongst people who get around in the alternative spiritual communities and know people, show that no such outfit as the Tariqa Baha’iyya formally exists outside of the interview you gave to Steve Marshall claiming it.[/quote]

    In the first place, Dumbledore, since the “outfit” you refer to has always been a strictly private affair (of which, by the way, there are, and have always been, countless such in existence), how, pray tell, would the “people who get around” who “know people” possibly be aware of its existence? Mental telepathy? Advertisements on the astral plane? Oh no, wait — if an “outfit” of any kind exists, they must know about it, or it simply doesn’t exist!

    In the second place, the interview I gave was to Alison Marshall, not to Steve Marshall. If this is any indication of your detective work, no wonder you’re confused.

    In the third place, who says I’m in Vancouver? I could be in, oh, say, an American city in a Southwestern state … Just a suggestion, to help you hone your unbelievably amazing powers of detection.

    [quote]No Andrew Carter exists who is a former Bahai, universalist Sufi heading a Tariqa Baha’iyya with Iranian Sufi friends who have deep knowledge of Zarathushtrian scriptures and who is a descendent of the astrologer CEO Carter.[/quote]

    All you’ve demonstrated here is that you know how to use “the Google.” Again, nice try, but no score; otherwise, you’d be able to provide [1] the name of the Sufi order to which my friend belongs and [2] the name of the organizations with which I am presently affiliated. Oh, but you can’t, can you? I’ve never publicized any of these, nor have I ever made reference to them anywhere on the internet. Oops! The Google don’t work so well no more!

    [quote]However there is someone along those lines that is connected through the greater BC Golden Dawn community, and specifically, one of its offshoots formerly calling itself the Angelic College of Damkar, but their name is not Andrew Carter. One of the co-founders of the aforementioned Angelic College is a Baha’i, and former members who have since left that outfit have claimed that a heavy Baha’i bias abides in the material being sanitized and tought over there.[/quote]

    This is becoming ever more baroque. Interesting, though.

    [quote]Your heated and unexplainable animosity towards me, beginning with your unsolited email[/quote]

    Unsolicited e-mail? Well, I do have a couple of unsolicited love letters from you in one of my many nefarious in-boxes, but I don’t recall ever having contacted you without your first having contacted me. But perhaps you’re confusing me with Andrew Carter, or with Siete Truenos, or with whomever you’ve confused yourself with.

    Heated and unexplainable animosity? Goodness knows, you’ve never exemplified such qualities yourself! It’s always everyone else! And they’re always stealing your brilliant ideas! Without accreditation!

    [quote]I will find you out together with what your agenda is about and I will crucify you when I do, however long it takes me to do it, ?Andrew Carter.? Take that to the bank with you. That is a promise from Mirat’ullah! And say hello to Nineveh/Mamdouh for me[/quote]

    Uh-huh. Sure. Clearly, you’re as crazy as a bag of hammers; maybe you should check yourself back into that “rest home.”

    And yes, I’ll certainly say hello to Nineveh/Mamdouh for you, along with Zeus, Jesus, Colonel Sanders, Mickey Mouse, and whoever else you wish to send along greetings to.

    Ta-ta!

  • Andrew

    Nice try! No score!

    [quote]You have claimed to have once been a Bahai and to presently head a Bahaim Sufi Tariqa called the Baha’iyya.[/quote]

    Where, precisely, did I claim to “have once been a Bahai”?

    Where, precisely, have I ever claimed to “head” (presently or otherwise) a Sufi Tariqa?

    Please cite specific references.

    [quote]Inquiries made in Vancouver, Canada, amongst people who get around in the alternative spiritual communities and know people, show that no such outfit as the Tariqa Baha’iyya formally exists outside of the interview you gave to Steve Marshall claiming it.[/quote]

    In the first place, Dumbledore, since the “outfit” you refer to has always been a strictly private affair (of which, by the way, there are, and have always been, countless such in existence), how, pray tell, would the “people who get around” who “know people” possibly be aware of its existence? Mental telepathy? Advertisements on the astral plane? Oh no, wait — if an “outfit” of any kind exists, they must know about it, or it simply doesn’t exist!

    In the second place, the interview I gave was to Alison Marshall, not to Steve Marshall. If this is any indication of your detective work, no wonder you’re confused.

    In the third place, who says I’m in Vancouver? I could be in, oh, say, an American city in a Southwestern state … Just a suggestion, to help you hone your unbelievably amazing powers of detection.

    [quote]No Andrew Carter exists who is a former Bahai, universalist Sufi heading a Tariqa Baha’iyya with Iranian Sufi friends who have deep knowledge of Zarathushtrian scriptures and who is a descendent of the astrologer CEO Carter.[/quote]

    All you’ve demonstrated here is that you know how to use “the Google.” Again, nice try, but no score; otherwise, you’d be able to provide [1] the name of the Sufi order to which my friend belongs and [2] the name of the organizations with which I am presently affiliated. Oh, but you can’t, can you? I’ve never publicized any of these, nor have I ever made reference to them anywhere on the internet. Oops! The Google don’t work so well no more!

    [quote]However there is someone along those lines that is connected through the greater BC Golden Dawn community, and specifically, one of its offshoots formerly calling itself the Angelic College of Damkar, but their name is not Andrew Carter. One of the co-founders of the aforementioned Angelic College is a Baha’i, and former members who have since left that outfit have claimed that a heavy Baha’i bias abides in the material being sanitized and tought over there.[/quote]

    This is becoming ever more baroque. Interesting, though.

    [quote]Your heated and unexplainable animosity towards me, beginning with your unsolited email[/quote]

    Unsolicited e-mail? Well, I do have a couple of unsolicited love letters from you in one of my many nefarious in-boxes, but I don’t recall ever having contacted you without your first having contacted me. But perhaps you’re confusing me with Andrew Carter, or with Siete Truenos, or with whomever you’ve confused yourself with.

    Heated and unexplainable animosity? Goodness knows, you’ve never exemplified such qualities yourself! It’s always everyone else! And they’re always stealing your brilliant ideas! Without accreditation!

    [quote]I will find you out together with what your agenda is about and I will crucify you when I do, however long it takes me to do it, ?Andrew Carter.? Take that to the bank with you. That is a promise from Mirat’ullah! And say hello to Nineveh/Mamdouh for me[/quote]

    Uh-huh. Sure. Clearly, you’re as crazy as a bag of hammers; maybe you should check yourself back into that “rest home.”

    And yes, I’ll certainly say hello to Nineveh/Mamdouh for you, along with Zeus, Jesus, Colonel Sanders, Mickey Mouse, and whoever else you wish to send along greetings to.

    Ta-ta!

  • Off-topic, Wahid.

  • Off-topic, Wahid.

  • Amanda

    It’s amazing how threats of crucifixion are so often off-topic.

  • Amanda

    It’s amazing how threats of crucifixion are so often off-topic.

  • [quote comment=””]Well, I do have a couple of unsolicited love letters from you in one of my many nefarious in-boxes, but I don’t recall ever having contacted you without your first having contacted me.[quote]

    Here is the proof you are an absolute liar.

    From: Andrew Carter
    Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 5:50 AM
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Bayan19 Moderator

    Thank you! I read this with considerable interest and marveled at how much misinformation and propaganda can be spread like wildfire. Incredible …

    Andrew

    I had never contacted you before in priavte email (that is under your Andrew Carter alias) nor have I remotely been interested in contacting hacks such as you. Why don’t you post my alleged “love letters” here, since this is the only response I have given you in private email under your Andrew Carter alias (i.e. to the unsolicited email):

    From: Wahid Azal
    Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 11:22 AM
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Andrew Carter

    Glad you liked it, although I am not the author.

    Speaking of misinformation and propaganda: how is claiming a pseudo-Sufi Tariqa with the name Baha’iyya in the name of a complete fraud such as Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri while bogusly claiming a Naqshbandi lineage that on principle avers your kind of blatant New Age Western approach to Sufism anything but misinformation and propaganda.

    W

    As for google, don’t worry there are far more advanced and effective methods to locate hacks such as your ugly self. And your transparent sarcasm in no way, shape or manner dimishes from the fact that you are not what you have represented yourself as.

    To Steve Marshall, while I am off-topic it appears your buddy who began attacking me first here is not. No surprise there since this is the double-standards of liberal bahaim hackery known quite well from your lot of no-good hacksters.

    W

  • [quote comment=””]Well, I do have a couple of unsolicited love letters from you in one of my many nefarious in-boxes, but I don’t recall ever having contacted you without your first having contacted me.[quote]

    Here is the proof you are an absolute liar.

    From: Andrew Carter
    Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 5:50 AM
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Bayan19 Moderator

    Thank you! I read this with considerable interest and marveled at how much misinformation and propaganda can be spread like wildfire. Incredible …

    Andrew

    I had never contacted you before in priavte email (that is under your Andrew Carter alias) nor have I remotely been interested in contacting hacks such as you. Why don’t you post my alleged “love letters” here, since this is the only response I have given you in private email under your Andrew Carter alias (i.e. to the unsolicited email):

    From: Wahid Azal
    Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 11:22 AM
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Andrew Carter

    Glad you liked it, although I am not the author.

    Speaking of misinformation and propaganda: how is claiming a pseudo-Sufi Tariqa with the name Baha’iyya in the name of a complete fraud such as Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri while bogusly claiming a Naqshbandi lineage that on principle avers your kind of blatant New Age Western approach to Sufism anything but misinformation and propaganda.

    W

    As for google, don’t worry there are far more advanced and effective methods to locate hacks such as your ugly self. And your transparent sarcasm in no way, shape or manner dimishes from the fact that you are not what you have represented yourself as.

    To Steve Marshall, while I am off-topic it appears your buddy who began attacking me first here is not. No surprise there since this is the double-standards of liberal bahaim hackery known quite well from your lot of no-good hacksters.

    W

  • The email from which “Andrew Carter’s” unsolicited email came from,
    kyuseiki@yahoo.com

    and the headers,

    Delivered-To: wahidazal66@gmail.com
    Received: by 10.78.18.7 with SMTP id 7cs495757hur;
    Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:50:07 -0800 (PST)
    Received: by 10.141.96.21 with SMTP id y21mr10127458rvl.132.1202673005340;
    Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:50:05 -0800 (PST)
    Return-Path:
    Received: from n24c.bullet.scd.yahoo.com (n24c.bullet.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.67.214])
    by mx.google.com with SMTP id c36si20389536rvf.28.2008.02.10.11.50.04;
    Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:50:05 -0800 (PST)
    Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of notify-return-wahidazal66=gmail.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com designates 66.218.67.214 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.218.67.214;
    DomainKey-Status: good
    Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of notify-return-wahidazal66=gmail.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com designates 66.218.67.214 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=notify-return-wahidazal66=gmail.com@returns.groups.yahoo.com; domainkeys=pass header.From=Bayan19-owner@yahoogroups.com
    Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
    DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=lima; d=yahoogroups.com;
    b=EIgM28l0enPjejV7tkZXbrahyQUw2N0mOabTna9S9K3CdzzuThD8SOXO4etkeCL+OH/4lN0nJy/h9J5uARASN/qZYS6X/9gAITBx61qaKEQU4175fH6NJ7NMgfV90ulc;
    Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n24.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Feb 2008 19:50:04 -0000
    Received: from [66.218.67.85] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Feb 2008 19:50:04 -0000
    X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-mod
    X-Originating-IP: 209.191.85.22
    X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0
    X-Sender: kyuseiki@yahoo.com
    X-Apparently-To: Bayan19-owner@yahoogroups.com
    Received: (qmail 18751 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2008 19:50:03 -0000
    Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96)
    by m49.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2008 19:50:03 -0000
    Received: from unknown (HELO web36605.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (209.191.85.22)
    by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 2008 19:50:03 -0000
    Received: (qmail 35795 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Feb 2008 19:50:03 -0000
    X-YMail-OSG: Tss_VlsVM1m98vgJbwBb63Nz8baK25G77sTlnVFr7BoxW1mk7s7HdjAQKghmbwy8vuAS2oQjD6x3lV.QDVsaf_TZC0_di8dZrrmzoLiM.JDex1ODvOXRKM1ML8mBJw–
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    Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:50:02 -0800 (PST)
    From: Andrew Carter
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Bayan19 Moderator
    In-Reply-To:
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  • The email from which “Andrew Carter’s” unsolicited email came from,
    kyuseiki@yahoo.com

    and the headers,

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    Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:50:02 -0800 (PST)
    From: Andrew Carter
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Bayan19 Moderator
    In-Reply-To:
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  • Andrew

    [quote]Here is the proof you are an absolute liar.

    From: Andrew Carter
    Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 5:50 AM
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Bayan19 Moderator

    Thank you! I read this with considerable interest and marveled at how much misinformation and propaganda can be spread like wildfire. Incredible …

    Andrew[/quote]

    The proof that I am an absolute liar? Ah yes: a response sent to you in response to a file you first sent to me, completely unsolicited, I might add. Cuckoo! Cuckoo!

    [quote]To Steve Marshall, while I am off-topic it appears your buddy who began attacking me first here is not.[/quote]

    And how, precisely, did I begin attacking you first? On the contrary, I never mentioned your name at all until …

    [quote]Here is an implement you can use for your personal consumption of the final product, Mr ?Carter?, or shall I say Mr Siete Truenos:[/quote]

    But let’s not let the facts get in the way of the meds.

    [quote]As for google, don’t worry there are far more advanced and effective methods to locate hacks such as your ugly self.[/quote]

    Yes, like “magic.” You could always draw some more invisible stars in the air, flap your arms, recite some baroque verbiage, make some whooshing noises, fly to Cyprus in your astral body to visit the disembodied essence of Azal …

    Ciao!

  • Andrew

    [quote]Here is the proof you are an absolute liar.

    From: Andrew Carter
    Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 5:50 AM
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Bayan19 Moderator

    Thank you! I read this with considerable interest and marveled at how much misinformation and propaganda can be spread like wildfire. Incredible …

    Andrew[/quote]

    The proof that I am an absolute liar? Ah yes: a response sent to you in response to a file you first sent to me, completely unsolicited, I might add. Cuckoo! Cuckoo!

    [quote]To Steve Marshall, while I am off-topic it appears your buddy who began attacking me first here is not.[/quote]

    And how, precisely, did I begin attacking you first? On the contrary, I never mentioned your name at all until …

    [quote]Here is an implement you can use for your personal consumption of the final product, Mr ?Carter?, or shall I say Mr Siete Truenos:[/quote]

    But let’s not let the facts get in the way of the meds.

    [quote]As for google, don’t worry there are far more advanced and effective methods to locate hacks such as your ugly self.[/quote]

    Yes, like “magic.” You could always draw some more invisible stars in the air, flap your arms, recite some baroque verbiage, make some whooshing noises, fly to Cyprus in your astral body to visit the disembodied essence of Azal …

    Ciao!

  • More proof that you are an utter liar and a total charlatan, or the very lunatic you claim I am. I never sent you anything solicited or unsolicited. You had subscribed yourself to my yahoogroups Bayan19 list and responded to a notice that went to the list as a whole of a file uploaded to the files section of that list in 2004 (four years after the file first went up, I might add). Even the headers of your email prove who you are addressing (the “Bayan19 Moderator”) and for what reason. To wit,

    From: Andrew Carter
    Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 5:50 AM
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Bayan19 Moderator

    Hacksville is as hacksville does and you are a hack!

    W

  • More proof that you are an utter liar and a total charlatan, or the very lunatic you claim I am. I never sent you anything solicited or unsolicited. You had subscribed yourself to my yahoogroups Bayan19 list and responded to a notice that went to the list as a whole of a file uploaded to the files section of that list in 2004 (four years after the file first went up, I might add). Even the headers of your email prove who you are addressing (the “Bayan19 Moderator”) and for what reason. To wit,

    From: Andrew Carter
    Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 5:50 AM
    Subject: Re: File – McCants and Milani – Nuqtat al-kaf[1].pdf
    To: Bayan19 Moderator

    Hacksville is as hacksville does and you are a hack!

    W

  • maybeIam

    I’ve been following the discussion here, as well as that which has taken place between Wahid and Andrew Carter since the beginning of last year. The tone and content of Andrew’s replies to Wahid are strikingly similar to many others made by various Baha’is/Baha’i AO members directed at discrediting and marginalizing Wahid and his positions. There is a VERY consistent and fishy pattern here.

  • maybeIam

    I’ve been following the discussion here, as well as that which has taken place between Wahid and Andrew Carter since the beginning of last year. The tone and content of Andrew’s replies to Wahid are strikingly similar to many others made by various Baha’is/Baha’i AO members directed at discrediting and marginalizing Wahid and his positions. There is a VERY consistent and fishy pattern here.

  • Craig Parke

    Good night everyone. Pleasant dreams!

  • Craig Parke

    Good night everyone. Pleasant dreams!

  • farhan

    Steve wrote:

    I’ve heard of Shoghi Effendi as the Sign of God and there are places in the Baha’i writings where the Sign of God is equated with the revelation. But the House as God’s Sign on earth?

    Steve I don’t remember having read those exact words “sign of God” but in substance this expression seems valid, as Youness Afroukhteh, Abdu’l-Baha’s secretary records it:

    “Now, regarding the future of the Faith, ‘Abdu’l-Baha suddenly began to continually emphasize the need for the Universal House of justice and the significance of its establishment. In clearly defined statements,

    He made us understand that the friends should not assume that after the setting of the Sun of the Covenant, the Cause of God would fall into the hands of the wicked and the corrupt. He emphasized this point repeatedly; one night He instructed us thus: “Write down My words, and communicate them to all parts of the world. Commit them to memory and mention them to anyone with whom you come into contact, so that no doubt may remain that after Me the Faith will be in the hands of the Universal House of Justice.”

    Since He had instructed that we should record His words, that night in the pilgrim house everyone wrote down whatever they could remember of His utterances. My notes are as follows:

    The night of Monday, the 16th day of Jamadi’u’llah, A. H. 1319 [31 August 1903] we were in the presence of ‘Abdu’l-Baha He made certain remarks regarding the Universal House of justice, which in accordance with His instructions are recorded as follows:

    He stated: “Nothing causes me more unhappiness than disunity, and this can only be remedied by obedience to the command of the Universal House of justice. Even before the establishment of the House of Justice, the friends must be obedient to the existing Spiritual Assemblies even if they know of a certainty that their judgment is flawed. If this were not complied with, the mighty citadel of the Faith of God would not be safeguarded. All must obey the Universal House of justice. Obedience to it is obedience to the Cause. Opposition to it is opposition to the Blessed Beauty. Denial of it is denial of God, the True One. Renouncing any word of the House of Justice is like unto the renunciation of a word from the Kitab-i-Aqdas. Observe, how important this matter is! The Blessed Beauty has ordained the House of justice as the law-maker. If the votes of the members are not unanimous and there are differences of views, then the vote of the majority is the vote of the Blessed Beauty.”

    He then added: “Take this very moment. Should the Universal House of justice be operating, by the one True God, beside Whom there is no God, I would have been the first to obey its decree, even if it should be against me. It is true that that Body does not possess inherent infallibility, but it is under the shadow of the protection and shelter of the Blessed Beauty.Its command is the Blessed Command. Discuss this matter amongst yourselves, so that it may not be forgotten. Speak of it to one another; even, make a written note of it.”

    (snip) ‘Abdu’l-Baha used to talk mostly (in those days) about the importance of the House of justice. One night, when He spoke on this subject again He said, “If the House of justice had been operating in this day and pronounced my death sentence, all would have to obey.”

    The late Muhammad Riday-i-Qannad was disturbed at this statement by the Master, and he asked, “Is the House of Justice of God, or is it not?” “Of course it is,” replied the Master. “How then is it possible for that which is of God to condemn He Who is of God?” asked he. “My object”, ‘Abdu’l-Baha replied, “is that you may know that on that day the House of justice is the true one of God, for the Blessed Beauty has ordained it to be the law-maker.? (Khaterat pp170-172)

  • Farhan YAZDANI

    Steve wrote:

    I’ve heard of Shoghi Effendi as the Sign of God and there are places in the Baha’i writings where the Sign of God is equated with the revelation. But the House as God’s Sign on earth?

    Steve I don’t remember having read those exact words “sign of God” but in substance this expression seems valid, as Youness Afroukhteh, Abdu’l-Baha’s secretary records it:

    “Now, regarding the future of the Faith, ‘Abdu’l-Baha suddenly began to continually emphasize the need for the Universal House of justice and the significance of its establishment. In clearly defined statements,

    He made us understand that the friends should not assume that after the setting of the Sun of the Covenant, the Cause of God would fall into the hands of the wicked and the corrupt. He emphasized this point repeatedly; one night He instructed us thus: “Write down My words, and communicate them to all parts of the world. Commit them to memory and mention them to anyone with whom you come into contact, so that no doubt may remain that after Me the Faith will be in the hands of the Universal House of Justice.”

    Since He had instructed that we should record His words, that night in the pilgrim house everyone wrote down whatever they could remember of His utterances. My notes are as follows:

    The night of Monday, the 16th day of Jamadi’u’llah, A. H. 1319 [31 August 1903] we were in the presence of ‘Abdu’l-Baha He made certain remarks regarding the Universal House of justice, which in accordance with His instructions are recorded as follows:

    He stated: “Nothing causes me more unhappiness than disunity, and this can only be remedied by obedience to the command of the Universal House of justice. Even before the establishment of the House of Justice, the friends must be obedient to the existing Spiritual Assemblies even if they know of a certainty that their judgment is flawed. If this were not complied with, the mighty citadel of the Faith of God would not be safeguarded. All must obey the Universal House of justice. Obedience to it is obedience to the Cause. Opposition to it is opposition to the Blessed Beauty. Denial of it is denial of God, the True One. Renouncing any word of the House of Justice is like unto the renunciation of a word from the Kitab-i-Aqdas. Observe, how important this matter is! The Blessed Beauty has ordained the House of justice as the law-maker. If the votes of the members are not unanimous and there are differences of views, then the vote of the majority is the vote of the Blessed Beauty.”

    He then added: “Take this very moment. Should the Universal House of justice be operating, by the one True God, beside Whom there is no God, I would have been the first to obey its decree, even if it should be against me. It is true that that Body does not possess inherent infallibility, but it is under the shadow of the protection and shelter of the Blessed Beauty.Its command is the Blessed Command. Discuss this matter amongst yourselves, so that it may not be forgotten. Speak of it to one another; even, make a written note of it.”

    (snip) ‘Abdu’l-Baha used to talk mostly (in those days) about the importance of the House of justice. One night, when He spoke on this subject again He said, “If the House of justice had been operating in this day and pronounced my death sentence, all would have to obey.”

    The late Muhammad Riday-i-Qannad was disturbed at this statement by the Master, and he asked, “Is the House of Justice of God, or is it not?” “Of course it is,” replied the Master. “How then is it possible for that which is of God to condemn He Who is of God?” asked he. “My object”, ‘Abdu’l-Baha replied, “is that you may know that on that day the House of justice is the true one of God, for the Blessed Beauty has ordained it to be the law-maker.? (Khaterat pp170-172)

  • Francis

    maybeIam wrote:

    [quote]There is a VERY consistent and fishy pattern here.[/quote]

    Uh-huh. And here it is:

    http://hazinsad.blogspot.com/2007/12/message-from-old-friend-of-wahid-azal.html

    That picture is 6-7 years old.

    Since his gender reassignment surgery, this is what he looks like now:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3K_MH2p5g

  • Francis

    maybeIam wrote:

    [quote]There is a VERY consistent and fishy pattern here.[/quote]

    Uh-huh. And here it is:

    http://hazinsad.blogspot.com/2007/12/message-from-old-friend-of-wahid-azal.html

    That picture is 6-7 years old.

    Since his gender reassignment surgery, this is what he looks like now:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak3K_MH2p5g

  • Craig Parke

    Wow. The Philadelphia Eagles are playing very well against the New York Giants. Looks like a possible upset in the making. Does anyone know if any members of the Universal House of Justice/International Teaching Center have ever played on an athletic team of any kind at any level? Sometimes you learn things about how an organization works at the psychological level in human beings by playing on an athletic team. One of these things is knowledge of human limits in strength and endurance. There actually ARE limits believe it or not. Human beings actually have limits. I wonder if any of them know this? The AO never seems to understand the existence of limits or personal boundaries in an organization. It is very strange. Have any of them ever had to run an organization where you had to make a payroll from operations? Or are they all high school teachers? Does anyone know? Wow. The Giants just blew picking up a First Down. Back to the game.

  • Craig Parke

    Wow. The Philadelphia Eagles are playing very well against the New York Giants. Looks like a possible upset in the making. Does anyone know if any members of the Universal House of Justice/International Teaching Center have ever played on an athletic team of any kind at any level? Sometimes you learn things about how an organization works at the psychological level in human beings by playing on an athletic team. One of these things is knowledge of human limits in strength and endurance. There actually ARE limits believe it or not. Human beings actually have limits. I wonder if any of them know this? The AO never seems to understand the existence of limits or personal boundaries in an organization. It is very strange. Have any of them ever had to run an organization where you had to make a payroll from operations? Or are they all high school teachers? Does anyone know? Wow. The Giants just blew picking up a First Down. Back to the game.

  • maybeIam

    [quote comment=””] maybeIam wrote:

    There is a VERY consistent and fishy pattern here.

    Francis wrote: “Uh-huh. And here it is”:

    http://hazinsad.blogspot.com/2007/12/message-from-old-friend-of-wahid-azal.html [/quote]

    Oh, you mean the blog created by this man:

    http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Culhane.htm

    “Terry Culhane’s attempt at defense of the tyrannical and oppressive system of interrogation discloses the appalling lack of liberty and freedom of conscience within the baha’i faith and its betrayal of Abdu’l-Baha’s Teachings”

    Boy, that sure does make my point seem less valid!

  • maybeIam

    [quote comment=””] maybeIam wrote:

    There is a VERY consistent and fishy pattern here.

    Francis wrote: “Uh-huh. And here it is”:

    http://hazinsad.blogspot.com/2007/12/message-from-old-friend-of-wahid-azal.html [/quote]

    Oh, you mean the blog created by this man:

    http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Culhane.htm

    “Terry Culhane’s attempt at defense of the tyrannical and oppressive system of interrogation discloses the appalling lack of liberty and freedom of conscience within the baha’i faith and its betrayal of Abdu’l-Baha’s Teachings”

    Boy, that sure does make my point seem less valid!

  • Re: Francis

    The Bahai Technique – Ad Hominem, Libel, Slander, Demonize, Scapegoat, Ostracize, Shun, Banish, Backbite, Defame, Vilify, Discredit, Smear, Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Blackball, Coerce, Silence, Harass… etc., etc…. CAUTION NON-BAHAIS

    Re: context on the rant by Terry Culhane in 2002 made into a blog by Badi Vilar Cardenas:
    http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Culhane.htm

    Re: Badi Villar Cardenas,
    http://badivillarcardenas.blogspot.com/

    Finally, since an occult war “Andrew Carter” and his/her/its associates wish, an occult war they will get.

    W

  • Re: Francis

    The Bahai Technique – Ad Hominem, Libel, Slander, Demonize, Scapegoat, Ostracize, Shun, Banish, Backbite, Defame, Vilify, Discredit, Smear, Revile, Suppress, Attack, Bully, Intimidate, Threaten, Malign, Blackball, Coerce, Silence, Harass… etc., etc…. CAUTION NON-BAHAIS

    Re: context on the rant by Terry Culhane in 2002 made into a blog by Badi Vilar Cardenas:
    http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Culhane.htm

    Re: Badi Villar Cardenas,
    http://badivillarcardenas.blogspot.com/

    Finally, since an occult war “Andrew Carter” and his/her/its associates wish, an occult war they will get.

    W

  • Recent picture of WAHID AZAL:
    http://wahidatjabarin.blogspot.com/

  • Recent picture of WAHID AZAL:
    http://wahidatjabarin.blogspot.com/

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