Peter Khan Passes Away

Previous member of the Universal House of Justice Peter Khan has passed away today. Over the years we’ve discussed Khan’s extremist viewpoints more than a few times. He was also a key player in Alison Marshall’s expulsion as well as the UHJ member with the portfolio of Asia sent to pummel into submission the New Zealand Baha’i community when they balked at her treatment by the institutions.

Below is the message from the UHJ:

We grieve at the sudden passing of our dearly loved former colleague Peter J. Khan, whose many years of service in the Holy Land, concluded so recently, are still fresh in our memories. By any measure, his was a remarkable life, one of earnest striving, of unbending resolve, of unflinching dedication to principle, and of constancy of effort. Discovering the Faith in his early youth, he had an unbroken record of outstanding service that included membership of the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia, of the Auxiliary Board for Propagation in North America, of the Continental Board of Counsellors in Australasia, and of the International Teaching Centre and that culminated in his election to the Universal House of Justice on which body he served for twenty-three years. His considerable intellectual gifts manifested themselves in every aspect of his service to the Cause of God: in his stalwart defence of the Covenant, in the exemplary manner in which he discharged his manifold administrative duties, in his acquainting generations of youth with the transforming vision of Shoghi Effendi, in his championing the advancement of women, in his diligent attention to the stewardship of the Faith’s material resources, and in his presentations of the verities of the Cause with uncommon eloquence and endearing humour to unnumbered audiences–lifting hearts, stimulating minds, galvanizing spirits. The Faith of God has lost a distinguished servant.

Our condolences are extended to his beloved wife Janet, his collaborator and devoted companion. We shall offer ardent prayers at the Sacred Threshold that his illumined soul may be joyously received in the Abha Kingdom and immersed in the ocean of divine grace. We call upon the friends to hold befitting memorial gatherings in his honour throughout the Baha’i community, including in all the Houses of Worship.

The Universal House of Justice

Peter Khan was a member of the UHJ from 1987 to 2009 (when he retired):

  • Freeraylive

    When I first met him on an Indian Reservation in the USA – his eyes gleamed and I found him inspirational because he talked about Divine Magnetism…. but in time he proved to be a man willing to subjugate women, using the name of God to do so, by serving on the Baha’i Universal  House of Justice, an institution that upholds this disservice to social justice.   

  • Wahid Azal

    This man was a power hungry and corrupt functionary of a corrupt system who hurt an awful lot of innocent people over the years and has now been made to witness the consequences of his deeds. A great darkness finally left this world. May he burn in hell!

  • Craig Parke

    I saw him speak to 10,000 Baha’is at the Milwaukee, WI, U.S. National Baha’i Conference in early 2001.  I was absolutely astonished that a man of such astounding sneering arrogance could have been elected dog catcher anywhere on Earth let alone to the highest office in the Baha’i Faith. He lectured those assembled humble people mercilessly. It was like seeing a person beat a dog with a newspaper until it pees uncontrollably on the carpet. I was absolutely horrified to witness such a spectacle.  To my mind he absolutely disgraced himself in his high handed arrogance by what he said and yet had no personal awareness whatsoever of it.

    After 30 years in the Faith at that point it was the beginning of the end of the road for me. I could never be in something for another day led by someone like that. What had happened to this once hopeful Religion? I have tried to recover in life. But the experience of him still amazes me. I still don’t understand what exactly had happened to the Baha’i Faith. I think it was having to vote for UHJ members from a pre-selected closed list that was set up back in the early 80′s? Was it 1983? Or 1984? The latter would certainly be more fitting.

  • Fubar

    Really!? Kind of like making spiritual grapefruit juice? What Kozmik dimension do you exist in?

  • Epierce

    That is refreshingly sneering silliness/creepy shallowness, otherwise known (in integral theory) as the flatland of modernist absolutism (backward, lacking in holism, unintegrated).

    Are you an actual Ayn Rand lunatic devotee? If so, do you realize how thoroughly discredited Rand is?

    Did you see the material on Voltaire’s bastards?

    Have you ever thought about the delegitimization of authenticity in the modernist flatland?

    Did you see the material on Holons (Koestler)?

    Did you see the material on Christopher Alexander’s attempt at conveying meaning about “lifeworld” to scientists?

    Are you aware of Habermas’ statement that the modernist flatland represents a “colonization of lifeworld by systems”?

    Are you nothing more than an a$$hole (or playing games to appear as such)? If so, why are you wasting your time?

  • Fubar

    More silly blather.

    You are just as much an an ignorant, shallow hate monger as is any fundamentalist goon.

    I seriously dount that you understand science.

    The idea of apocalyptic whoresmen of flatland modernism is increasingly irrelevant in the Age of Hermes.

    Such “tier-1″ mentalities lack nuance and sophistication.

    They are only justified by hate of their “mirror” – religious ignorance and fundamentalism.

    The only reason that the whoresmen of reason have any remaining legitimacy is because they feed on the very ideas that they hate.

    If stupid religion disappeared, no one would care about the absolutist version of “reason” that you are promoting.

    some scientists and mathematicians have begun to realize that the conventional (non-integral) form of “Reason and Science” is itself absolutist and culturally limited.

    Legitimate anthropologists openly consider how evolution wired the human brain for “spiritual” meaning as part of successful adaptation by the human species to social life on planet earth.

    I’m an ex-bahai that does not “believe in” the archetypal lens that produces the “god” concept in western religion (which is based on warring, imperialist slave society, thus the refernce to “god” as “lord”, etc.).

    Sam Harris has engaged in nuanced dialogue with the Integral community.

    Sam Harris does not blather like a rabid fool.

    Many Integralists are influenced by buddhism, which does not require, or particularly encourage, worship of “god”.

    do you have any understanding of the transpersonal psychology movement? Jungian archetypes? the value of spiritual ritual in psychological healing? the role of spiritual transformation in social change?

    You win nothing except the unenlightened, shallow arrogance award so far.

  • Fubar

    Sadly, the world produces plenty of people that are so spiritually damaged that they can’t help themselves from parasitizing, colonizing, exploiting and manipulating a religious community for ego gratification. 

    May Khan’s spirit find in its return to the Great Emptiness an escape and spiritual liberation it could not in the world of suffering, bondage to self and craving of power.

  • Fubar

    Bmw’s blog handle on bahai rants links to the following blog:

    http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/

    “We need a discourse on ethics and spirituality that is every bit as unconstrained by dogma and cultural prejudice as the discourse of science is.”

    Ummm, as much as I agree with most of what is said about Harris and buddhism at the above blog, it is sheer lunacy to imagine that “discourse about science” is “unconstrained by dogma and cultural prejudice”.

    Ivan Illich explained this with great insight in the Whole Earth Catalog in the early 1980s:

    “…the ambitions of transnational pedagogues, therapists and planners knew no bounds…”

    “Development based on high per capita energy quanta and intense professional care is the most pernicious of the West’s missionary efforts – a project guided by an ecologically unfeasible conception of human control over nature, and by an anthropologically vicious attempt to replace the nests and snakepits of culture by sterile wards for professional service.”

    The above characterization reveals the ugly underbelly of western modernism, which rests on a foundation of Reason (Voltaire, etc..).

    http://www.preservenet.com/theory/Illich/Vernacular.html

    “By the late Middle Ages, the image of the alien mutated again. The Moors had been driven from Granada, Columbus had sailed across the ocean, and the Spanish Crown had assumed many functions of the Church. The image of the wild man who threatens the civilizing function of the humanist replaced the image of the infidel who threatens the faith. At this time also, the alien was first described in economy-related terms. From many studies on monsters, apes and wild men, we learn that the Europeans of this period saw the wild man as having no needs. This independence made him noble, but a threat to the designs of colonialism and mercantilism. To impute needs to the wild man, one had to make him over into the native, the fifth stage. Spanish courts, after long deliberation, decided that at least the wild man of the New World had a soul and was, therefore, human. In opposition to the wild man, the native has needs, but needs unlike those of civilized man. His needs are fixed by climate, race, religion and providence. Adam Smith still reflects on the elasticity of native needs. As Gunnar Myrdal has observed, the construct of distinctly native needs was necessary both to justify colonialism and to administer colonies. The provision of government, education and commerce for the natives was for four hundred years the white man’s assumed burden.

    Each time the West put a new mask on the alien, the old one was discarded because it was now recognized as a caricature of an abandoned self-image. The pagan with his naturally Christian soul had to give way to the stubborn infidel to allow Christendom to launch the Crusades. The wild man became necessary to justify the need for secular humanist education, The native was the crucial concept to promote self-righteous colonial rule. But by the time of the Marshall Plan, when multinational conglomerates were expanding and the ambitions of transnational pedagogues, therapists and planners knew no bounds, the natives’ limited needs for goods and services thwarted growth and progress. They had to metamorphose into underdeveloped people, the sixth and present stage of the West’s view of the outsider. ”

    To be sure, scientific dogma and absolutism is different than religious dogma, but they exist, and are rooted in specific circumstances of culture (western imperialism, colonialism and global corporatist “capitalism”).

    Fortunately, scientific dogma tends to disappear more rapidly than religious dogma, which is why strident anti-religious “scientific” rhetoric is slowly becoming discredited in favor of more nuanced, integral approaches.

    It might be useful to briefly review the Sokal Hoax (late 1990s?) to get some further perspective on the nature of the interaction between culture and science.

    http://jwalsh.net/projects/sokal/articles/gkamiya.html

    excerpt:

    Physicist’s Slick Hoax Leaves Egg on Face of ‘Progressive’ Academic Journal Transgressing the Transgressors: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Total Bullshit Gary Kamiya

    Anyone who has spent much time wading through the pious, obscurantist, jargon-filled cant that now passes for “advanced” thought in the humanities knew it was bound to happen sooner or later: some clever academic, armed with the not-so-secret passwords (“hermeneutics,” “transgressive,” “Lacanian,” “hegemony,” to name but a few) would write a completely bogus paper, submit it to an au courant journal, and have it accepted.
    Well, as that discredited icon of phallocentrism, Gomer Pyle, might have said, “Surprise, surprise, surprise.” Behind the shiny black cover of the current “Science Wars” issue of “Social Text,” a prestigious journal devoted to cultural studies, those who rush to read will find an article by NYU physicist Alan Sokal titled “Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity.”

    Sokal’s piece uses all the right terms. It cites all the best people. It whacks sinners (white men, the “real world”), applauds the virtuous (women, general metaphysical lunacy) and reaches the usual “progressive” (whatever that word is supposed to mean) conclusion. And it is complete, unadulterated bullshit — a fact that somehow escaped the attention of the high-powered editors of Social Text, who must now be experiencing that queasy sensation that afflicted the Trojans the morning after they pulled that nice big gift horse into their city.

    Oops.

    Sokal reveals his hoax in the current issue of the magazine “Lingua Franca.” In order to “test the prevailing intellectual standards,” he writes, “I decided to try a modest (though admittedly uncontrolled) experiment: Would a leading North American journal of cultural studies — whose editorial collective includes such luminaries as Fredric Jameson and Andrew Ross — publish an article liberally salted with nonsense if (a) it sounded good and (b) it flattered the editors’ ideological preconceptions? The answer, unfortunately, is yes.”

    It’s actually easy to see why the editors accepted the article: it parrots with deadly accuracy the style and intellectual approach of the standard mediocre progressive post-structuralist paper available cheap over every academic counter these days. In fact, one almost wishes that Sokal had made his modest proposal even more egregious. His paper, which is arrant nonsense, is quite literally indistinguishable from a thousand others — a fact which itself says volumes about the decrepit state of the humanities today.

    [end]

    Also see: http://www.physics.nyu.edu/sokal/

  • Guest 1

    What is the evidence he was a “key player” in Allison’s explusion.  
    I mean as opposed to the other 8 members at the time, how do we know who was a “key player” in the affairs of that time.  Was anyone one the UHJ at the time that expressed a less than-”extremist view” related to the events of that time? 

    The graph is quite interesting and well done.  The feedback loop of the UHJ consisting of people the UHJ previously choose is fascinating.  I had not realized it so clearly before. 

  • Wahid Azal

    If Dawkins is such a genius (actually: pseudo-intellectual simpleton and racist Anglo-American establishment propagandist) why has he refused to debate Cambridge University philosopher of science Simon Schaeffer as well as other noted philosophers of science?

  • Wahid Azal

    “Religion, not atheism is the force behind the mass murders of history.”

    Really? The leadership of the former USSR would be surprised to hear that their mass murders were “religiously motivated” as would the Nazi architects of the holocaust and Pol Pot. In the 20th century militant Marxist and Fascist atheists were behind all the mass murders. You are a brainwashed fool!

  • Fubar

    If consciousness is an illusion, then Reason and Science (which arise from human consciousness), are illusion.

    All forms of human experience are subject to corruption and suffering including Reason and Science.

    All forms of absolutism, religious or scientific, are pathology.

    A belief in a Purity Myth about Reason and Science is intellectual imperialism (incoherent absolutisms that are outside the realm of Reason and Science).

    The pathology of “rational” people being irrational underlies injustice (attachment to power and greed), and arises from suffering, and clinging to lies.

    http://www.integralworld.net/mgm2.html

    excerpt:


    As I have tried to document, the modern flatland (MOM) arose in the wake of two major evolutionary developments, one “good” and one “bad.” The good news was the Weberian differentiation of the value spheres of art, morals, and science on a widespread, cultural scale (i.e., the differentiation of the Big Three or the four quadrants). The bad news was that, for various complex reasons … that important differentiation of the value spheres went too far into dissociation of the value spheres, which eventually resulted in the Habermasian “colonization of art and morals by science”–that is, the domination of the interior realms of I and We by a scientific materialism of Its: by any other name, the mean orange meme.

    The MOM is the global disaster of modernity (as the MGM is the disaster of postmodernity and the MBM was the disaster of medieval premodernity, etc.). I have written extensively on this MOM pathology, which actually underlies all of the other pathologies being criticized (from global captialism to exploitation). As I have tried to make very clear, flatland (MOM) is the single greatest pathology on the planet right now, and has been for three centuries; the other mean memes are still present, and equally insidious in their own fun ways, but by sheer dint of its power and reach, the MOM gets the prize for nastiest of the nasty memes.

    As for the healthy and unhealthy green memes, I always start any discussion of the MGM by pointing out the HGM’s many accomplishments to date: the civil rights movement, feminism, environmental protection and ecological sensitivity, health care reform, political awareness of marginalization in all forms, etc.

    But I have focused on the damage that the MGM has caused, mostly because that is where the action is in the cultural elite. The MGM is the driving force of boomeritis, and it has dominated academia, liberal politics, and the humanities for three decades. Its damage is staggering, and only made worse by the smug self-satisfaction of these particular Inquisitors.

    Of course it is necessary to tease apart the healthy versions of orange from the unhealthy versions, and the healthy versions of green from the unhealthy. But so far, most of the work I have seen in this area still has a strong green bias. therefore, I feel it is necessary to continue to criticize these tendencies, while still encouraging more responsible approaches to this important topic, approaches that are truly all-quadrants, all-levels, all-lines, all-states, all-types.

    One of my biggest problems is that, alas, I haven’t the time to address all these issues adequately. Some critics infer that if I haven’t emphasized a particular quadrant or level, it is because I am actively devaluing it, whereas all it usually means is that I haven’t had time to address it. This is particulary true for healthy green, for unhealthy yellow (yes, there is definitely a MYM), and for economic-political factors in the social system or lower-right quadrant. I have a lot to say on those items, hopefully some of it useful, and I look forward to being able to share these thoughts soon.

    Bush’s “axis of evil” is, of course, a blue meme statement. As such, it infuriates green. But there is another sort of “good news, bad news” about Bush’s approach.

    [*] On the one had, blue always has a much better understanding of
    [*] red and of how to handle red. Blue is right next to red, has just
    [*] come out of red, and understands the drastic measures that are
    [*] required to handle red war loads and brutal terrorists.

    Green is generally helpless and hapless in the face of red: all of green’s tools and values are clueless in the face of joyous brutality and intentional aggression. Talking, sharing, caring, and dialoging do not impress red.

    [*] It takes a blue meme to smash red in the face and not blink.

    On the other hand, blue is still blue. As such, its own imperialism is much worse than that of orange or green

     [***] (because increasing development brings a lessening of
     [***] narcissism and absolutism:

    blue is worse than orange, which is worse than green, which is worse than yellow…). Bush is attempting to put blue structures in place on a global scale, whereas they are effective, in today’s world, only on a local basis (send in a blue army to crush red barbarians, etc.) — worse for bush and america, many world leaders, especially european, have a good measure of healthy green, and thus it will be impossible to build an international consensus around blue values. Bush will therefore do so unilaterally, which will be disastrous, separating America from the rest of the liberal democracies, which are frankly alarmed and embarassed at all that “axis of evil” crap.

    My own opinion is that the only way any of these problems will change is if a significant number of world leaders themselves begin to light up yellow cognition (as a prerequisite for yellow morals). Most of the world leaders who can do so are now at green, more or less, and therefore most of their problems center around their own attempts to differentiate healthy and unhealthy green. That is, most of their problems directly stem from their own MGM, which is exactly why I continue to focus on that pathology.

    All of the other mean memes can only be fixed if world leaders themselves recognize and address those issues, and that will only happen if they jettison the MGM in their own thinking and thus stand open to second-tier solutions. This is not to say that the other problems aren’t important (for they are!), only that I am focusing on what I believe is the crux of the difficulty at this time.

    14 February 2002 [Ken Wilber]

  • Fubar

    Science and reason can’t prove, or disprove, “soul”.

    Science and reason can’t prove, or disprove, “beauty”.

    Science and reason can’t prove, or disprove, “ethics or morals”.

    The mechanistic version of science, which is a cultural artifact itself, is a very limited form of science.

    More highly evolved forms of science can’t prove if something is energy or matter, or both.

    Evolution wired compassion and altruism into human experience for survival reasons (along with learning, reason, memory, creativity, language, etc.).

    Religion is one of the many complex contructs of the human culture that resulted from evolution.

    Science and Reason have authority in the sphere of material truth (individual/exterior consciousness – “IT”).

    Science does not, and can not, encompass all existence.

    Religion/spirituality does not, and can not, encompass all existence.

    Attempting to extend the truths of material existence (“science”) into the area of inner truth (beauty, contemplation) and “good” (social construction of meaning, collective ritual) is absolutist and a form of imperialism.

  • Fubar

    People usually like compassion and altruism, probably because it is based on love and acceptance, “nurturing mommy” stuff, and it helps heal pain and loss.

    Truth is more prickly.

    Sometimes truth is a “strict daddy”.

    To live with a healthy sense that everything is ultimately “emptiness” requires far deeper level of realization than most humans are capable of sustaining. We are not wired by evolution to live in a state of constant realization of emptiness. To do so usually causes more anxiety than people can live with (it is “maladaptive” in evolutionary terms).

    It may be that one of the most important things about contemplation, and the religious social rituals that usually accompany it, is that they trigger the brain to release anti-anxiety chemicals that enable an individual to contribute, via social actions and rituals, to social well being.

    So yes. religion is a complex of stuff, including social constructions meant to insulate us from the truth of unhealed pain, loss, and bewilderment at the cold truth and beauty of a universe that is ultimately empty.

    The road from suffering to emptiness does not have a “get out of jail free” side trip through “science and reason”, except as a dead end.

    Beauty is deep, but can be as cold as absolute zero at the dark edge of the universe.

    Do “science” and “reason”  help people heal from pain and loss?

    Not really as far as I can tell.

    Science and reason can provide order, but when the need for order become fetishized (such as in references to urine, horsemen, apocalypse), problems are usually not far off.

  • Fubar

    re: “More highly evolved forms of science can’t prove if something is energy or matter, or both.”
    For those that have not followed the public debate (some of which can be seen on youtube) between new age types and “scientists” that promote anti-spiritual beliefs:

    Please note that Deepak Chopra has attempted to make truth claims about spirituality on the basis of the uncertainty of wave/particle states at subatomic levels.
    While one can understand why this might have some appeal from a “spiritual” viewpoint, it probably is not “good science”.

  • Freeraylive

    I would say: ‘Separation and duality is not the true reality’ – and Humanity is beginning to pick up on this once again.

    ‘Balance’ allows for interconnected experience within one’s self as well as in the world and Kosmos.

    The conscious egotic mind – is not the focal point or real intelligence of an individual – but it often blocks the homeostasis portal that allows for the invisible to manifest in the visible.

    Science has document the wave becoming a particle of matter – so it is all a matter (pun) of electro-magnetic frequencies ‘projected’ from a Source Point.

    Quantum Science has many proofs operating – but then again where does the illusion of Being begin?

  • Wahid Azal

    “May Khan’s spirit find in its return to the Great Emptiness an
    escape and spiritual liberation it could not in the world of
    suffering, bondage to self and craving of power. ”

    A great Navajo medicine man of our times in New Mexico once said to me that certain white men have a habit of talking many high sounding euphemisms and platitudes in the name of spirit, but if you search their hearts you find nothing but fire and pure malice in it whereas a native person who truly speaks the language of spirit will speak their mind as it is, warts and all. The white man who stole, plundered and wantonly destroyed the native cultures of the Americas in the name of Christ hasn’t changed very much whether he speaks the language of the church, Bahai or that of integralism/sugar-coated Buddhism.

  • Desir0101

    Hi Fubar,

    You are right.

    Applause to you.

  • Desir0101

    Please stop from personal attack.
    It’s not dignify.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_H2RPNGZJRZOERTXMFH4YMUAPMU Bmw

    Desir0101, please stop personally attacking Baha’i figures, and come out of the closet, you are an atheist.  Stop lying and trying to deceive the people.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_H2RPNGZJRZOERTXMFH4YMUAPMU Bmw

    Don’t make nomal every-day things into supersititions based on religious/spiritual things.  You have no justification for doing so.

    You said certain things allow “the invisible to manifest in the visible”.  You clearly do not know the meaning of invisible.  It is utterly meaningless to say that the invisible manifests itself in the visible.  You are a Deepak follower, the king of Charlatans.

    And don’t impose your supersititious illusion of a “Source Point” on the rest of us.

    You ask “where does the illusion of Being begin?”  That is  a silly question.  Dr. Daniel Dennett clearly articulates that being and consciousness are only an illusion created by your mind, nothing more.  Its time to wake up.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_H2RPNGZJRZOERTXMFH4YMUAPMU Bmw

    Fubar, Your existence revolves around discrediting the Baha’i Faith, a minority faith severly harrassed by most all Islamic nations.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_H2RPNGZJRZOERTXMFH4YMUAPMU Bmw

    Fubar, You are a master of con-artist.  And Desir0101 is your follower.  You intentionally leverage the weaknesses of the people (fear of nothingness and limitations in scientific knowledge and the “need” for “purpose”)  to drive your own personal agenda.  Science and reason can’t prove, or disprove, “soul” because a “soul” does not exist.  It is impossible to prove or disprove a negative. You cannot disprove that a pink unicorn exists. Then you use a word such as “beauty” to appeal to the senses of the uneducated people.  You are indeed a wolf in sheeps clothing.You said “More highly evolved forms of science can’t prove if something is energy or matter, or both.”  So what?  Just because it hasn’t discovered it yet doesn’t mean you have the right to take advantage of this currently unknown thing to impose your own personal world view on the rest of us.Your existence revolves around discrediting the Baha’i Faith, a minority faith severly harrassed by most all Islamic nations.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_H2RPNGZJRZOERTXMFH4YMUAPMU Bmw

    Fubar, You are a master conartist and exploit the desires of your victims.  And Desir0101 is your follower.  You intentionally leverage the weaknesses of the people (fear of nothingness and limitations in scientific knowledge and the “need” for “purpose”)  to drive your own personal agenda.  Your existence revolves around discrediting the Baha’i Faith, a minority group pf people severly harrassed and outlawed in most all Islamic nations. You are no better than a gay-basher, a homophobe, a racist, and a Nazi.

    Science and reason can’t prove, or disprove, “soul” because a “soul” does not exist. 

    In the same way it is impossible to prove or disprove any negative. Therefore you also cannot disprove that a pink unicorn exists, or that there is a spaghetti monster out there somewhere. Or a boogie man under your bed. He just disappears whenever you bend down to peak under your bed and reappears as soon as you look away, and he only comes out when you are sleeping.

    Then you use a word such as “beauty” to appeal to the senses of the uneducated people.  You are indeed a wolf in sheeps clothing.You said “More highly evolved forms of science can’t prove if something is energy or matter, or both.”  So what?  Just because it hasn’t discovered it yet doesn’t mean you have the right to take advantage of this currently unknown thing to impose your own personal world view on the rest of us.

    Your existence revolves around discrediting the Baha’i Faith, a minority faith severly harrassed by most all Islamic nations.

    Your attacks on the Universal House of Justice don’t go unnoticed. All your accusations and the accusation of this “blog” are unfounded. Now be gone.

  • Anonymous

    Just a friendly reminder: this is a space for sharing differing opinions and entering into a fruitful dialogue. At times the clash of ideas can be intense. By keeping the focus on the issues at hand we can all benefit. The commenting policy of this blog is extremely loose however there are limits. Comments that add no value, are not relevant to the discussion and/or contain personal attacks or insults will be removed.

    Thank you.

  • Craig Parke

    Yes. I hope everyone can advance. I think everyone can benefit from the record everyone leaves. It is all, after all, archetypal.  I’m with St. Paul on this one. “God is no respecter of persons.”  People who leave their heads on poles as a warning to others not to take the same path, have also contributed greatly.  Cult bubbles are not pretty to the human psyche. This is a major lesson learned from the Abrahamic religions. People should realize they should at least get out for dinner and a movie every 500,000 years. Try to get a bigger perspective on things every once in a while.

  • Freeraylive

     Agreed Craig. Cheap thrills, living on the ‘Edge of Glory’ and all that hypocrisy jazz shown by the heads on poles no longer pays off in the long run as it belongs to an old world order paradigm known as the ‘fall of man’.

    Birth of Universal Guidance:

    The Breeze of Guidance commanded the breath of life to begin

    The Universe has been illuminated, every horizon, every Being

    No more sits the clergy in the seat of hypocrisy

    No more is the place of worship a business selling holiness

    The voice of the pretentious clergy is no more

    Ending the days of their misinformation and deception

    The world set free from superstitions and vain imaginings

    Humankind set free from confusion and misconceptions

    With the Power of Equality injustice becomes evaporated

    The carpet of justice is spread everywhere

    The seeds of love and friendship scattered throughout

    The false verdicts eradicated from all horizons

    And concepts of opposition and separation changed to that of unity.

    Tahirih-Qurratu’l-Ayn, circa 1840 ->Tahirih Era

  • Fubar

    I’ll defer to your far greater wisdom and abilities on the topic of insulting people, dead or not.

    If there is such as thing as Karma, Khan’s will presumably sort itself out on its own. If there is some sort of afterlie, or rebirth, his sins and evil acts will have to be atoned for.

    I don’t think you will have to wait long for american or european cluture to be brought low. The empire will probably start crumbling fast, and turn fascist/totalitarian/balkanized as the plutocrats make their last grab for water, farm land, timber, minerals, etc.

    In a few decades, the USA will probably look something like Mexico, with “capitalist” crime organizations controlling significant areas.

    I have no doubt that shamanistic cultures are more “authentically” spiritual in certain ways, in the context of their particular cultural “lens”. They deserve a lot more respect that they have historically gotten, and american society still doesn’t do anywhere near what it should to support revival of native american culture.

    However, it isn’t apparent how that has anything to do with the movement to reintegrate spirituality into postmodern culture. You don’t actually want “white” people to imitate native american spirituality do you? How would that be authentic? Some of the ones that have done so in the recent past have really screwed things up.

    There is the messy question of the Clovis people, who appear to have been “white” europeans that navigated the margins of north atlantic ice sheets in kayaks at the end of the last ice age, to arrive in north america. Clovis points were found in a trail from the mid atlantic area where the ice sheets terminated to the Anazasi region in the southwest. DNA testing will probably show dispersed “white” DNA in most of the native americans whose families were originally located in that migration pattern.

    conquest and imperialism is not unique to europeans, persians tried it several times (against both Greece and India), and were also victimized by it when the Mongols invaded the middle east.  From what I can tell, native americans almost constantly engaged in conquest and acquisition of territory from other native americans (including central and south america). The tribes that “lost” such wars were usually pushed into less productive or advantageous ecosystems (cold/mountain areas, deserts, rainforests, etc.).

  • Fubar

    Assuming that Christopher Alexander isn’t too “spiritually polluted” of a “white man” to be acceptable, the following might be useful.

    http://www.natureoforder.com/library/commentary-for-readers-of-book2.htm

    (linked from :
    http://www.natureoforder.com/library-of-articles.htm )

    excerpt:

    A Commentary for Readers of The Nature Of Order, Book 2By Christopher Alexander

    Many millions of people – by some counts (Paul Ray, Cultural Creatives) as many as sixty million Americans – are waiting for a paradigm change, and believe themselves to be in a paradigm change. They are convinced that society must change, that radically new ways of seeing the world are necessary in order to for us to get out of our present “mess.”

    So far, so good.

    But a real paradigm change – a way of thinking which really and truly changes our ideas about war, equality, money, jobs, leisure, family… all that may be easy to say, but is nevertheless very hard to DO. It is frightening to do, because to do it, we really have to change the things we are comfortable with. We may, yes indeed, be conscious of the fact that we are screwed up, and we may wish for better things for ourselves and for our children – but we remain enmeshed in a system which makes us secure (relatively), happy (relatively), morally OK (perhaps), and protected from starvation and disease (if we belong to the privileged 10% of the world’s population who are economically OK in the world today).

    But, we ourselves are enmeshed, deeply enmeshed, in the production of ugliness, zoning, banking, transportation, corporate America, making warplanes, destroying beautiful land by permitting and encouraging construction of freeways for our cars, and by permitting and encouraging the ravages of commercial development and strip malls. No matter how much we look down on it, and criticize it as bad, evil, and harmful – still we ourselves live off the product of this kind of America we hate. It is therefore easier to keep walking as a cripple with a pair of crutches, than it is to throw the crutches away, and take the huge effort of actually learning to walk again.

    We are part of that which we criticize and part of that which we hate. Yet we are sustained by that of which we are a part.

    So talking about a paradigm shift is nice stuff for armchair reading, but very much harder to DO.

    Book 2 of The Nature Of Order comes closer to confronting this problem than Book 1. It confronts it, because it addresses the daily processes we live by — in construction, in planning, and in building the world – it sets forth an entirely new way of understanding process, and therefore sets forth an entirely new way of changing and living our lives, and living a changed life.

    If it sounds too much like religion, throw that thought away. It is about the real practical processes of house building, banking, gardening, fixing your room, acting towards people you care for, earning your paycheck, what you may usefully strive towards, and what you should usefully decide to abandon (even if that comes with your paycheck and as the price of the paycheck). It is entirely down to earth, and it invites a new way of existing, in which every act, makes some, discernible, small difference to the beauty of the world immediately around us.

    In some ways, because it is filled with this advice about process and with mathematical descriptions of life-creating processes at the root of all nature; and because the processes are truly mind-changing when applied to buildings and to our world (they are based on a set of considerations almost never thought about today, and they ignore a set of considerations which are the locks and chains that keep us in order today) this Book 2 of the four books of the Nature of Order may perhaps be the most radical, and the most far-reaching of the four books, if taken seriously. It is certainly the one which has got me, personally, into the most trouble.

  • Craig Parke

    Yep. Beautiful. At least the human race made one beautiful film about this! As I have previously posted I was so glad I lived to see that kind of tremendous artistry in the Great Planetary Art Form of the New World Age: The Motion Picture.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAaikw9JVdw

    72 is always the Sign of the Knowledge of World Ages: the Great Whale of the Great Sea of the Cosmos.

    Is this a direct translation of one of her poems? Do you have a link?

    Wonderful!

  • Freeraylive

    Great points you made Eric: ?We may, yes indeed, be
    conscious of the fact that we are screwed up, and we may wish for better things
    for ourselves and for our children…But, we ourselves are enmeshed, deeply
    enmeshed, in the production of ugliness,… We are part of that which we
    criticize and part of that which we hate. Yet we are sustained by that of which
    we are a part.?

    This is why the Baha’I teaching say to ?pray for your
    enemies? – especially when it is yourself and relations. J

    Anything that comes to our awareness, that isn’t part of the
    progressive step up, we need to take 100% responsibility for as part of the
    Whole because we are part of what created it. If so, it makes sense to forgive
    ourselves and whatever developed it, while at the same time plugging into the
    healing energy that transforms and uplifts.  This kind of conscious awareness is positive
    paradigm shifting action which works on the causative factors metaphysically,
    and as a result in the physical worlds.

  • Freeraylive

     Hi Craig – You asked about the translation of Tahirih’s Writing. It comes from the Book of Poems of Fatemeh Zarin Taj – Published by the Iranian Burnt Books Foundation. Her Writing is Soul stirring and lays out the foundational processes closing the old order and the birth of the new Cycle.

    I know that those who wish to appropriate Her work and grandstand may take this discussion as an opportunity to jump all over it with their ‘superior ability’ in service of the Baha’i organization; but already there have been attempts to bastardize the original for various social constructing agendas. 

    Some scholars, attached to ‘patriarchal’ Baha’i misinformation, made some efforts to translate it previously by leaving out a most ‘central’ phrase:

    “With the Power of Equality injustice will be no more”

    In Tahirih’s Writing from the Iranian Burnt Book Foundation in Farsi the phrase that says:

    ‘The voice of the pretentious clergy is no more’

    reads in Farsi more descriptively in the sense that it says their epiglottis (voice making box) will be ripped out.

    Her original Glorious view to the future is pretty much accurately captured in the presented translation  – although it is even more Soul stirring read and understood in Farsi.

    “And concepts of opposition and separation changed to that of unity.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9CbsFNaBaA

  • Wahid Azal

    Qurra’tul-’Ayn (my ancestor) was a Shi’ite woman deemed to be the return of Fatima Zahra’, the Prophet Muhammad’s daughter. Fluffy New Age gobbledegook – that only plays into the hands of those who have obscured and whitewashed her true narrative and situs and who seek to misrepresent her biography further – needs to be read in the original as to what it actually says.

  • Freeraylive

     *Following the life of Tahirih-Qurratu’l-Ayn, it becomes evident that She left her husband and children to carry on with Her World Transformational Leadership of beginning new Religions, and to distance Herself from the fanatical Shi’ite ideology steeped upon Her two boys by the husband Her father forced Her to marry when She was fourteen years of age. Her daughter died young. Plots and abuse was heaped upon the Point of Divine Knowledge (Tahirih, the Purifier) by Her husband after She left him…and one can only speculate that Her sons would have been ashamed to think their Mother was a radical revolutionary in regards to Shi’ite Islam  – the very religion She relegated to the past at the Conference of Badasht.  She was followed as the return of the 12th Imam by many. In this day it has been brought forth that She is the Living Light throughout the Universe, if only ye did but know it.

  • Wahid Azal

    It seems New Age revisionisms of the life of a great Iranian woman and a personal ancestor of mine are considered no problem on this place. Yet attempting to set the record straight and disentangle the erroneous narratives of such totally offensive revisionisms is ok. It appears that the spiritual and intellectual dishonesty that animates Haifan Bahaism at its very core also informs and animates its assorted New Age American hippy spin-offs as well. Starr Saffa stated:

    “Following the life of Tahirih-Qurratu’l-Ayn, it becomes evident that She
    left her husband and children to carry on with Her World
    Transformational Leadership of beginning new Religions, and to distance
    Herself from the fanatical Shi’ite ideology”

    Qurrat’ul-’Ayn left her husband, yes. She did not leave the cultural matrix from which she emerged because such a thing would be meaningless to her. Qurrat’ul-’Ayn was considered in the Babi hierarchy to be a Letter of the Living and the Return of Fatima Zahra’, the wife of the first Shi’ite Imam and daughter of the Prophet and founder of Islam. It would help if certain people like Starr Saffa, instead of propagating Western colonialist “hate narratives” of Islamophobia, instead actually studied the life and writings of this woman for themselves like Soraya Adambakan has who so far has penned the definitive study of the life of Qurra’tu-’Ayn.

    ” Shi’ite Islam  – the very religion She relegated to the past at the
    Conference of Badasht.”

    As I and countless others have argued again and again, Babism is post-Islamic Shi’ism and even in the break with exoteric Islam at Badasht it was enacting a consummately Islamic Shi’ite event where it was acting out the dramaturgy of the Shi’ite apocalypse and Day of Resurrection (as had the Nizari Isma’ilis similarly at Alamut in 1162-8 CE and then later by the Hurufis). All of the major actors in it – primarily Quddus and Qurr’atu’l-’Ayn – played their parts believing themselves to be the archetypal ‘return’ of the founders of Islam: Quddus as the Prophet Muhammad (per nuqtat’ul-kaf) and Qurra’tul-’Ayn as Fatima Zahra’. This is how the core Babis understood this ‘Event’ as did the Bab himself. Westerners, and Anglo North Americans in particular, who have a bee in their bonnet about various things, who have bought into the racist Islamophobic narratives of hate (and attempt to marshal holy figures of the Babi pantheon in their Islamophobic campaign), seem to find this hard to believe. Nevertheless this is how it is.

    ”  She was followed as the return of the 12th Imam
    by many.”

    This is pure nonsense!

  • Freeraylive

    We must ask ourselves why would Nima Hazini-Wahid Azal wish to discredit and spin his own writings and words regarding Tahirih in  this public space? Yes, he has moved away from being known as a Baha’i; but why attempt to limit the great Zeitgeist Tahirih breathed into the world and Her opening a “New Era” for humanity that he mentions below?

    Here’s a
    discussion from Berekia (Nima Hazini, Wahid Azal) in 1999 where he sees Tahirih
    as a Manifestation and the Maid of Heaven who animates the Bab and Baha’u’llah,
    as well as being the one who broke with Islam at Badasht. He points out how the
    Bab deferred to Tahirih and told the believers to do the same.

    Newsgroups:
    talk.religion.bahai
    From: bereki…@my-deja.com
    Date: 1999/08/21
    Subject: Babi Theophanology

    Dear Mark & Pat:

    Pat said:

    >Prior to the conference
    at Badesht Tahirih was known as Qurratul Ayn, a
    > name used in the writings of the Bab in what appears to be a reference to
    the Manifestation of Allah.

    Ditto! Who do you think the Maid of Heaven/the Divine
    Feminine in the
    writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah is?

    Also remember that in so many key important aspects the prime mover of the events in Badasht – i.e. such as the abrupt and public break with
    the past – was initiated by none other than Hazrateh Tahirih. Even in Nabil the sense one gets is that Tahirih got the better of everyone in
    argument, eloquence and vision and thus pulled several of the recalcitrant prominent Babis in attendance, chief among them being
    Quddus, kicking and screaming into the Millenarian new age.

    Badasht was none other than the Hashr/the Gathering/the spiritual apokatastasis
    (for lack of a better word) promised in the Quran.

    What is conspicuous about her role is that Tahirih had
    been the primary theoretician of this break with dispensational Islam and the
    inauguration of the New Era from the very beginning of her career as a Babi while she was still in Iraq (see Mazandarani & Amanat).

    And notice how soon after these events the Bab
    completely deferred to Tahirih and dismissed all the complaints emanating against her as irrelevant (and it wasn’t the first time he’d done this either) given this momentous decision/proclamation.
       

    Looked at from one angle one can say that this
    event is unique in that it was the first time in religious history that a prominent disciple had been instrumental in defining, in almost denoument fashion, the doctrinal raison d’etre for the movement/religion and what it was at core the movement really stood for – something that was so obvious but had been missed on so many Babi adherents all along. But imv there was something else even more important and momentous going on behind the spiritual scenes, as it were. Pat has implicitly layed his finger on the very nerve of the issue imo. Tahirih was a Manifestation of Allah
    simultaneously co-participant with the Bab, Quddus and finally Baha’u’llah in the principal of Manifestationhood, which by metaphysical definition must transcend historical individualities and persons -
    this is a somewhat Docetist reflection, I know!

    Her human temple/haykal was nothing more than a Mirror and reflection of the transcendent Primal Point
    which was equally present in full splendor within the Bab.

    So my response to Mesbah’s original question is the
    following: yes, Baha’u’llah is ‘man yuzhiru’llah/Him whom God will make Manifest’ promised by the Bab. But so are Tahirih and Quddus in their own
    fashion. Or, to rephrase the issue in a batini Corbanian fashion by appealing to the principle of connaissance, say that Tahirih was the Maiden of
    Baha’u’llah’s being and the Youth was the Quddus of Baha’u’llah’s being.
         

    Thus speaketh this lowly, undeserving wretch and
    Quddusi/Qurrati/ radical antinomian Baha’i Babi :)

    Ya
    Sahib’ul-Zaman!Berekiah

    Sent via
    Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
    Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

     

  • Wahid Azal

    “We must ask ourselves why would Nima Hazini-Wahid Azal wish to discredit
    and spin his own writings and words regarding Tahirih in  this public
    space?”

    Because you, Starr Saffa, are the one doing all the spinning and have shamelessly manufactured an Islamophobic/fluffy New Age ultra-feminist narrative about Qurrat’ul-’Ayn that has nothing to do with her life or what she believed in or truly represented. This book is the definitive study on Qurrat’ul-’Ayn and one not to be surpassed for a very long time to come:
    Qurrat al-’Ayn. Eine Studie der religi?sen und gesellschaftlichen Folgen ihres Wirkens.
    http://www.klaus-schwarz-verlag.com/index.php?title=Soraya+Adambakan+Qurrat+al-+Ayn+Eine+Studie+der+religi%C3%B6sen+und+gesellschaftlichen+Folgen+ihres+Wirkens&art_no=IU278

    Neither Banani or Amanat can surpass this monograph, popular Bahai literature on her being drivel in any case not worthy of serious consideration. This thing was written by an Iranian woman with access to primary sources: a woman who is a genuine Iranian feminist. Your propositions about Qurrat’ul-’Ayn make her even shudder (mostly in laughter) as they have the entire Iranian Bayani community as well who, like I, have denounced you as a fraud – and who universally, like I, believe you to be on the payroll of the Haifan Bahai organization intentionally wheeled out to obscure the figure of Qurrat’ul-’Ayn!

    Link to my review of your book (whose charges you have yet to answer):
    https://groups.google.com/group/talk.religion.bahai/browse_thread/thread/80f60549f11852c7/030222d996f02ae1?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Broken+Silence%3A+Review+of+Tahirih+Thealogy#030222d996f02ae1

    And p.255 n68 from my LDM
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/46625547/LIBER-DECATRIARCHIA-MYSTICA

    As for Starr Saffa’s Tahirih TheAlogy:
    Female Cosmic Christ Spirit of the Age (Scarborough & Gold Coast:
    2005): this is an all around bad work deserving severe criticism, representing as
    it does the more ridiculous aspects of New Age fluff lumped together with
    Tahirih Qurrat’ul-?Ayn, but a Tahirih completely of the author’s own shallow
    and idiosyncratic manufacturing. Serious or informed content is totally absent.
    In fact, there is virtually nothing of content whatsoever other than the
    author’s reminisces about her personal life. The book is merely a badly written
    autobiography with Qurrat’ul-?Ayn as an afterthought with some of my own ideas over
    the years (badly formulated and misunderstood by the author, I might add) as
    the centrepiece. Even worse, when the author hazards pontifications upon
    esoterica, she embarrassingly trips over herself and gets facts and details
    completely wrong, as she does with something as simple as the numerical value
    of Tau (which is 400 and not 9. Tet is 9). While the author claims not to be a Bah??’? any longer, her
    former Bah??’? biases are very much glaringly apparent throughout the work. Even
    worse, her racist anti-Iranian sentiments articulated in the book are rather
    alarming, to say the least. The front page of the first edition of the book,
    for instance, has Ms Saffa seated atop a camel at the Perth Zoo! The second
    edition, published by Zeus Press shortly thereafter, has a picture of the front
    profile of Ms Saffa dressed in belly dancer regalia with her holding the front
    veil of the head-dress half way showing her eyes only. This is indeed like the
    ultimate caricature of everything expounded in Edward Sa’?d’s Orientalism
    (New York: 1979) regarding the exotic (whilst
    simultaneously racist) representations of the cultural icons of
    the East by certain Westerners with tacit political agendas (agendas usually
    not in the remotest best interest of those whom they are claiming to ?represent’).
    As a single white woman and expatriate American living in Australia, and in a
    time when racism is at such fever pitch in the community, is she deliberately
    poking fun at Iranians and Mid East cultures tout court with such
    cheap, jingoistic displays of blatant cultural insensitivity as this, i.e. the
    camel and belly-dancer regalia!? As such, Tahirih TheAlogy is a
    work to be treated with meticulous caution and so ought be relegated to the
    hall of shame in any serious bibliography on the subject worthy of the name.
    See my online review of this rather silly work on Bayan19@yahoogroups.com and in the
    logs of USENET under Broken Silence (see message logs for
    July-August 2005.) A further note of caution regarding this work: the author
    has been soliciting glowing reviews from individuals categorically unqualified,
    not to mention of rather suspect credentials and personal motivations, to be
    reviewing such a work, making it look to the unsuspecting that this actually is
    a serious work and its author worthy of serious scholarly consideration
    regarding the subject. Nothing could be further from the truth. This bespeaks rank
    dishonesty and a complete lack of either scholarly or spiritual integrity on
    the part of both author and the reviewers. Moreover, all attempts to draw the
    author into an informed, critical and public dialogue regarding her largely
    Anglocentric and idiosyncratic representation of Qurrat’ul-?Ayn
    by myself as well as others has thus far failed. Any public criticism of her
    positions is met by a disdainful disregard and then an inane repetition of the
    positions she is being criticized upon, with absolutely no regard or
    acknowledgement of the validity of such criticisms and that her positions are tout
    court untenable. Withal, Tahirih TheAlogy is a perfect
    example of the sort of butchery an important cultural and religious icon of
    Iran has been repeatedly subjected to by the predominantly Anglocentric (and
    very much neo-colonialist motivated) mentality prevalent inside one of the foremost
    sub-cultures of modern Baha’ism: a trajectory in Bah??’? literature beginning
    with that Western Bah??’? missionary to Iran of the 1930s, Martha Root. In that
    respect, Saffa is merely perpetuating the whitewashing legacy and
    Anglocentrization (very much anti-Islamicate and anti-Iranian) of Root’s
    writings on Qurrat’ul-?Ayn, but in a new guise. Recently, and never with any source
    documentation to back such outrageous claims, Saffa has stated that
    Qurrat’ul-?Ayn sanctioned the use of cosmetics (talisman9@yahoogroups.com,
    October-November, 2005)! The ludicrous nature of this claim, especially when
    historically and ethnographically (let alone religiously) contextualized,
    reveals one example of the true motivations underlying the appropriation of
    Qurrat’ul-?Ayn by the author, and it is certainly neither in the interests of the
    Qurrat’ul-?Ayn of history nor my Qurrat’ul-?Ayn, the Eternal F??tima, of high
    gnosis. Her re-Imagined T??hirih is purely in the interests of those
    very Calvinist minded Anglocentric ?white? Bah??’? elites whose idea of
    spirituality and religion is an Amway cult with prayer and committees, or their
    mirror image (and predominantly white) liberal counterparts who have no
    sensitivity to, or sympathy for, gnosis in the first place, especially of an
    Iranian sort and one being represented by an Iranian Shi’ite woman, no less,
    who is deemed the Return of a Shi’ite Islamic holy figure.

    .

  • Freeraylive

    Re: Wahid Azal (unregistered) wrote, in response to Wahid Azal (unregistered):Link to comment: http://disq.us/2pjndj  -

     

    Freeray: Wow – Great balls of fire!  Folks must be very upset if they produced
    this much vehement smoke-screen*. The Light of Tahirih IS brilliant, a necessity
    in mighty Paradigm Shifting. Her Message is inscribed on the Living hearts of those chosen to manifest the Great Shift. 

    * (Enantiodromia is
    a principle introduced by psychiatrist Carl Jung, that the superabundance of
    any force inevitably produces its opposite).

     

    The writer of this vicious screed (who claims relation to Mulla Taqi and Mulla Muhammad) must think his
    reward is ten little cherubs.

     

    “O QURRATU’L-`AYN!
    Stretch not
    Thy hands wide open in the Cause, inasmuch as the people would find themselves
    in a state of stupor by reason of the Mystery, and I swear by the true ,Almighty
    God that there is yet for Thee another turn after this Dispensation.

     
    And when the appointed hour hath struck, do Thou, by the leave of God, the All-Wise, reveal from the heights of the Most Lofty and Mystic Mount a faint, and infinitesimal glimmer of The impenetrable Mystery, that they who have recognized the radiance of the Sinaic Splendour may faint away and die as they catch a lightening glimpse of the fierce and crimson Light that envelops Thy Revelation. And God is, in very truth, Thine unfailing Protector.”
    ~Selections from the Writings of
    the B??b, pp. 53-54

  • Wahid Azal

    “O QURRATU’L-`AYN!
    Stretch not Thy hands wide open in the Cause, inasmuch as the people would find themselves in a state of stupor by reason of the Mystery, and I swear by the true ,Almighty God that there is yet for Thee another turn after this Dispensation.”

    This quote from Taherzadeh is a deceptively translated refrain from a surah of the Qayyum’ul-Asma’ wherein the Hidden Imam as the Bab’s alter ego (qua Muhammad vis-a-vis Gabriel) is addressing the Bab himself as Qurra’tul-’Ayn (the Solace of the Eyes) and not Fatima Zarin Taj Baraghani (my ancestor) who at this point had not even been appointed as Letter of the Living. I especially ask anyone who reads Arabic and knows this Tafsir by the Bab to find this specific passage in it with this specific wording: “there is yet for Thee another turn after this Dispensation.” Baha’i Taherzadeh has fabricated this last line and attributed to the Bab. Here is an original manuscript of the QA in the hand of the Babi scribe Mulla Mustafa Katib (which is identical to one of the ms. among the Browne collection at Cambridge University): http://bayanic.com/showPict.php?id=ahsan&ref=0&err=0&curr=0

    “And
    when the appointed hour hath struck, do Thou, by the leave of God, the
    All-Wise, reveal from the heights of the Most Lofty and Mystic Mount a
    faint, and infinitesimal glimmer of The impenetrable Mystery, that they
    who have recognized the radiance of the Sinaic Splendour may faint away
    and die as they catch a lightening glimpse of the fierce and crimson
    Light that envelops Thy Revelation. And God is, in very truth, Thine
    unfailing Protector.”

    This is also from the QA and is part of the internal dialogue of the text wherein the Hidden Imam acts as the Bab’s alter ego. This is not a reference to my ancestor Fatima Zarin Taj Baraghani.

  • Fubar

    Yes, first is awareness of the real orgins of the problem. Then awareness of  ways of being that create “life”. Transformation can be good or bad. When there is awareness of good alternatives, choices can be made to accept those alternatives.

  • Fubar

    Don’t know what this has to do with PK, but anyway ….

    re: ” liberal counterparts who have nosensitivity to, or sympathy for, gnosis in the first place, especially of anIranian sort and one being represented by an Iranian Shi’ite woman, no less,who is deemed the Return of a Shi’ite Islamic holy figure. ”

    My guess, as an uninformed bystander, is that you are both correct about different parts of the issue.

    There is no reason that most western anglo-liberal/progressive/feminists would have access to the deep meaning of iranian gnosis, or the deep islamic background that gave rise to the babi movement.

    Is it tragic that they are more uninformed? Yes. Will people care? ummm…

    They also aren’t constrained by that culture, which probably means (to state the obvious) that they are going to interpret it in their own context, not the original. It is a train wreck waiting to happen.

    I understand why you would get frustrated, and/or take offense.

    However, the idea that there were a whole buncha “manifestations” of Spirit, inluding one that was a woman, is intriguing, and seems to resonate with the idea in the dharma traditions that direct access to Spirit is possible, without the baggage of an intervening Authority Figure (Old Patriarch). What is also appealing is the idea that the definition of who was a “manifestation” were less static, formally rigid and orthodox than was the case in later bahai conceptions.

    The dynamism of those circumstances is appealing to progressive western readers, especially in terms of an image (romanticist?) of a revolutionary youth movement engaged in a Kosmic struggle against medieval order (premodern social organization).

    To state the obvious (again), that kind of narrative is basic to western modernism.

    I dont think it is your style to do so, but it could be that framing your knowedge of iranian gnosis and deep islamic culture history in terms that are slightly less uncompromising to western readers might actually help them to understand the real history more clearly.

    Also, as you are probably far more aware than I am, the dark side of feminism consists of more than “new age fluff”.

    Example:

    http://libertarianalliance.wordpress.com/2010/11/18/chris-r-tame-memorial-prize-2010/#comments

    ( http://libertarianalliance.wordpress.com/
     2010/
      11/
       18/
     chris-r-tame-memorial-prize-2010/#comments )

    Claire Khaw | 19 November, 2010 at 10:35 pm |

    excerpt:

    Widespread illegitimacy, working mothers and family breakdown is the reason why cultural traditions are now no longer transmitted. In other words, feminism. What the essay did not mention is that unmarried mothers are a burden on the state and tend to have offspring who also become a burden on the state.Worse, their unsocialised offspring who go into state schools spoil it for those who want to learn, and the female-dominated teaching establishment refuse, for ideological reasons, to discipline them.So it has been that for quite a few generations now educational and moral standards have deteriorated and this deterioration has accelerated as inexorably as a snowball rolling down a mountain. Our descent to hell in a handcart is analogous to this unstoppable snowball that started with universal child benefit and the Sex Discrimination Act.This also rather explains why the working classes are unfit for purpose. It is all down to bad parenting by single mothers, bad teaching by the female-dominated teaching profession, who now spend most of their time trying to disguise the failure of state education. These factors necessitate the import of cheap and better foreign labour. The foreigners who settle here clearly don’t want to end up being white trash, and that is why they prefer not to assimilate and stick to their own culture. It is a vicious and ever decreasing circle which no political party – not even the Libertarian Party – dares address because it would entail the dismantlement of the welfare state to which all Britons are now fatally addicted together with the cheap sex and easy women that feminism uses to bribe men into supporting feminism, an ideology that supports the right of women to be as promiscuous as men. The Muslims – which Libertarians and Nationalists fear – are just waiting in the wings to take over when the muck that passes for brains in this country’s political establishment finally explodes and oozes out of the putrefying orifices of the degenerate and stinking corpse of PC liberalism.[end]
    —Note: I don’t condone everything said in the above comment. I posted it as an example of one type of criticism of feminism that is willing to bring up issues that are frequently “taboo”.

  • Craig Parke

    Well, this latest exchange has all given me an idea for a movie script:

    (1) The Earth has been hit by a comet and everyone has apparently been killed worldwide.
    (2) But there are two survivors:  a younger Nima and Starr.
    (3) The survival of the entire human race, therefore, comes down to whatever happens in a motel room in Brisbane, Australia.
    (4) Somehow I don’t think we are going to make it and it is the end of the road for the experiment of Mankind.
    (5) Countless Beings in many other life forms in countless Galaxies would probably breathe  a collective sigh of relief as it all twinkles out on this forsaken little water bearing planet. Millions of years of Abdu’l-Baha defined evolution (Tm) and things just did not work out.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world of 2011 with thoroughly dead former UHJ members being called home to profound Cosmic Divine Judgment upon their theories and endless speeches and pontifications with many more to come, things have moved on mightily in the world since the days of  QURRATU’L-`AYN. She was murdered by her husband and her body thrown down a well for speaking up. It is a compelling narrative indeed.

    But the new “gnosis” may be much better than the old “gnosis” if you catch what I am saying! Everyone have a happy and wonderful weekend!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-EakzxmO-o

  • Wahid Azal

    “She was murdered by her husband and her body thrown down a well for speaking up. It is a compelling narrative indeed.”

    ???

    The problem with North American (liberal/ex-) Baha’is is that, with very rare exceptions, most of you people dogmatically cling to ignorant (read: totally re-Imagined) narratives about what you claim to identify with in terms of your claimed collective history but in so doing you generally project your own cultural Islamophobias (read: 21st century Antisemitism) into your narratives of angst about the Islamic ‘Other’, who you believe you are superior to, then propagating these re-imaginations as narratives of fact.

    Point of correction, Craig: Qurra’tu’l-’Ayn was not murdered by her husband. She was strangled to death on the orders of Nasiruddin Shah Qajar (the reigning monarch of Iran at the time). The murder was carried out by a servant of Mahmud Khan Kalantar, i.e. the sherrif and mayor of Tehran in the summer of 1852 whose house Qurra’tul-’Ayn had been under incarceration since she was brought to Tehran from Takur, Mazandaran in 1848/1849. None of these people were related to her. In fact, eversince her unilateral divorce of her husband and the events surrounding the assassination of her uncle Mullah Muhammad-Taqi Baraghani in 1847 (a rabid anti-Shaykhi, the man who issued the first takfir against Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa’i, and then a firey anti-Babi), the Baraghani family were all in Qazvin. Since these people are my maternal ancestors, I should be in a position to know where they were at the time of Qurra’tul-’Ayn’s martyrdom in the summer of 1852 following the botched assassination attempt on Nasiruddin Shah. So kindly revise your view that a misogynist Iranian Muslim man was responsible for the murder of his own wife! I am sure you believe most Iranian Muslim men are by definition misogynists who fantasize about (and worst cases carry out) the murder of their wives. However in this case a misogynist Iranian Muslim man did not murder his wife. It was the *state* under royal edict who murdered Qurrat’ul-’Ayn.

  • Craig Parke

    Wahid Azal,

    I stand corrected then and I sincerely apologize for my apparent previous ignorance on this matter then. I have always admired your scholarship. I also like Starr’s writings very much! The Divine Teacher for this World Age being a woman pushes my button indeed. It makes sense.

    Like Rodney King said “Why can’t we all just get along?” I like you both but both you and Starr have accused me at various times over the years of being a “planted agent” from Haifa! Would that THAT were true! If the AO was really THAT gifted to organize a vast world wide conspiracy to top down control cyber space maybe there would be an ACTUAL CHANCE to get REAL POWER in the world and actually do something, ANYTHING,  in the world to better the lot of common people everywhere! Ain’t. Gonna. Happen.  The pie in the sky will always be several hundred or several thousand years over the horizon. Nine lifetime incumbent top level high school teachers who think they are God just have not been able to get to a strategy level above coaching a girl’s junior high school soccer team so far. But everyone can hope! I could use a paid troll pay check!

    Meanwhile, the world moves on. Right now software engineers are building the technological planetary thought atom where anyone on Earth can INTIMATELY communicate with anyone else on Earth.  THAT is a game changer! I am very glad to be one of those true radicals. I can’t wait to get back to work Monday!

    Everyone have a pleasant weekend! It is now 40 years from this clip, but Johnny Winter plays here in Pittsburgh tomorrow at the Pittsburgh Blues Festival!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tyg5SJDpiQ

    PS
    I work with a new programmer born ten miles from Jerusalem who is a Palestinian.  As soon as he came of age he said to himself “I have to GTF out of the Middle East because EVERYONE HERE IS NUTS! And so he has! He did it. He became an American citizen last year. He came here with just $1,000 in his pocket ten years ago and eventually put himself through school. He became such a good software engineer that his previous employer eventually sponsored his citizenship. We walk along the Allegheny River here all the time in our wonderful talks. He says the people of the Middle East can keep their fierce BS Abrahamic gods on all sides. He is content to follow the religion of everybody else here as a simple Pittsburgh Steelers fan! There is more unity in section 1C at Heinz Field then ALL of the jackass religions of the Middle East combined. Life is good.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUb3JRyT-H0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUKylA1k3g4

  • Freeraylive

     Hi Fubar - 

    Re: the concept of taking responsibility and utilizing ?prayers’
    for all people concerned in an issue that comes into your awareness.

    My intent in addressing your suggestions is to present a
    simple formula that challenges all of us to suspend what we know and take a
    more direct methodology for solving the worlds present conditions.

    Let me first state that my comments are with an
    understanding of the following.

    1. A Divine Source from which we all emanate.  Where ?Divine’, in Qu’ranic terms (Hidden
    Treasure), would encompass a pre-existent Primal Will Essence (Love-Light) that
    came into Being at a Primal Point where we are in Oneness (I Am Self).

    2.  Therefore, Our
    consciousness in this plane of existence (world) is a constructed illusion

    3. In the nineteenth century Tahirih with the Pen of
    Authority wrote ?All the world is Illumined, every horizon? and went on to say at the Conference of Badasht
    how the Kings and Rulers of the world would be set aflight by such illumination.
     As such an increased Light Energy was
    injected into this world which paved the way for all people to choose to get
    off the old wheel of separation and duality (closing the past memories/religions
    born during the Fall of humankind*,  where
    folks, for the most part, were willingly cut off from the Soul and Spirit). At
    the same time the injection of Light began to open doors for creating a more
    balanced and harmonious civilization. In order to understand ?Balance? thinking
    in terms of Wholeness and Oneness are necessary. Since this time there has been
    a continuous flow of Light from Source into the constructed consciousness so as
    to enable the people to go with the unfolding Shift. However, the pure kindly
    heart creates a balance opening the channels for this Knowledge/Light to flow
    through the individual so as to manifest in the world.

    4. This means that there are seven billion heads (all with
    different ancestry, experiences, beliefs, constructs, and understanding) that
    need to get along to have a harmonious civilization.

    Fubar: ?Yes, first is awareness of the real orgins of the
    problem.?

    FreeRay:  Although I
    was born and educated into applying critical analysis based on deeply
    researched information, I have arrived at a knowing that I can choose to apply
    to cut across this limitation in the context of healing a problem (This is where
    I ask you to put aside, for the purpose of this exercise, all our training of
    needing to ?know’ the origins of every problem – especially since it is
    impossible to reach into the psyche of seven billion people with all their
    millions of different combinations of neuron memories stuck in their DNA, some who
    are still living in duality awareness).

     Say we have a string
    for each one of these ?unique mind constructed people’ and brought them
    together they soon would become a tangled knotted web of mass confusion and
    conflict. 

    Fubar: ?Then awareness of  ways of being that create
    “life”.

    Freeray:  Agreed, and
    if we were able to take an end of the string and unite or tie it together at a
    central place, it would be at a place of Oneness where an awareness of
    Soul/Spirit would be visible. It is from this awareness of Oneness or Wholeness
    that True Knowledge permeates and harmony exists.  It is from this Oneness that the individuals can
    become balanced and all the convoluted knots (constructed blocks) be
    straightened for living together.  

    When My Eyes see a problem then I become responsible for
    clearing it, whether it be in myself, others, or the world. A very easy way of
    doing that is to send the Energy of Forgiveness, Love-Light, and Gratitude into
    it through conscious thought and intent. This is how to neutralize thousands of
    years of constructed illusion, which has blocked people from knowing their true
    Self. When these blocks are removed then the problem no longer presents to the
    individual – of course unless, through free will they choose to reinstate it.

    Fubar: Transformation can be good or bad. When there is
    awareness of good alternatives, choices can be made to accept those
    alternatives.

    FreeRay: Several months ago I wrote a song that I think
    speaks to choices entitled ?What Free-Will Can Do for Me and You? that I’ll
    share here for the sake of the discussion.

    WHAT
    FREEWILL CAN DO

    Free Will,
    Free Will

    What can
    Free Will do for me and you

     

    It can get
    us in trouble, make us blue

    But, It can
    also set us free from what’s not true

    And

    We can use
    our free will to align

    with the
    Will of the Divine

    Doing so
    makes us feel fine

    giving us
    Peace of Mind

    When we
    align with the Will of the Divine

     

    It is
    powered by Love Energy

    It’s the
    Plan for all humanity

    Gives us
    Peace and Harmony

    All the
    rest is just an unreal dream

    That
    evaporates in time

    Like a
    smokescreen

     

    But when we
    align

    with the
    Will of the Divine

    We connect
    with Creation’s Intelligent Mind

    It gives us
    Peace in our Sacred Heart and Soul

    Which is
    our real Free Will Goal !!!

    Peace of
    Mind

     Day and night, all the time 

    So meditate
    and get in line

    With the Supreme
    Divine

     

    Free Will
    Free Will this is what it can do

    for me and
    you. Align with the Will of the Divine!

    ©

    *Footnote: Shoghi Effendi speaking about Tahirih ending the
    old world order and beginning the New One, Taken from God Passes By, pages
    74-75

     “It was this
    remarkably gifted woman who undertook the translation of the B??b’s lengthy
    commentary on the S??rih of Joseph (the Qayy??mu’l-Asm??) for the benefit of her
    Persian co-religionists, and exerted her utmost to spread the knowledge and
    elucidate the contents of that mighty Book.”

    17 – “It was from her pen that odes had flowed attesting, in
    unmistakable language, not only her faith in the Revelation of the B??b, but
    also her recognition of the exalted and as yet undisclosed mission of
    Bah??’u’ll??h . And last but not least
    it was owing to her initiative, while participating in the Conference of Badasht,
    that the most challenging implications of a revolutionary and as yet but dimly
    grasped Dispensation were laid bare before her fellow-disciples and the new Order
    permanently divorced from the laws and institutions of Isl??m. Such marvelous
    achievements were now to be crowned by, and attain their final consummation in,
    her martyrdom in the midst of the storm that was raging throughout the capital.”

    Please note: That there are many accounts from various
    scholars, and oral testimonies re the martyrdom of Tahirih and by whose hands.  However, Tahirih was never limited and Her
    Voice still rings out world-wide in living Beings today.

  • Fubar

    Congratulations on the SOAS presentation and all your impressive accomplishments that led to it. Corbin is great stuff. Iranians rediscovering authentic sources of their culture, which produced one of the highest civilizations in the world, is great. My guess is that the study of the historical moment in which middle eastern cultures came into contact with an expanding west and were thrown into a crisis of legitimization requiring adoption of new paradigms, will be of great value. Historically, the attempt to integrate “pantheism” into a monotheistic culture (Ibn-al-arabi) should be something worthy of careful study (and the larger question of hindu/buddhist influence on muslim culture). There are questions about whether muslim scholars were on the verge of developing something like evolutionary theory. re: “liberal/ex- Bahai subculture itself has become progressively more Islamophobic and culturally xenophobic …” I’m not aware of Stetson being xenophobic, but I may have missed something. Many of the vocal people on the UBA/UU bahai list are pursuing a blend of Sufism and bahaism. There has been universal scorn for many of McGlinns’ ideas there.  Many new age UU-bahais do Buddhist/Dharma practice. How is that xenophobic? Does Juan Cole still count as being ex-bahai/liberal? Isn’t he a major critic of the US misadventure in Iraq on the basis that it is unaware of local culture? re: “same old, same old confused Anglo-European sub-cultures who haven’t decided whether they want to belong to a social reform movement or a religion.” Lol. isn’t the usual alternative worse: old school anglo-european colonialism/imperialism of the military sort?  the empire seems to be crumbling and america is in permanent decline. those realities (how to adapt) are what is going to absorb people’s attention. I’m personally of the opinion that leaving Iran alone as much as possible is probably the best idea (if not working toward mutual respect and trying to find common good). It is certainly cheaper than the bad meddling that US national security agencies have been doing for 60+ years. Rather than characterize the situation as a confused sub-culture, it might be better to say that the counterculture is trying to make sense of, and make money from, a globalized, postmodern world.  Steward Brand’s “Four Environmental Heresies” states an interesting fact: 400 years of european domination is a historical anomaly. For most of the last 5,000+ years, Asia was the center of civilization. A return to a world were the center is shifting eastward seems inevitable. In a globalized/postmodern world, the old paradigms of Reason and Industry are being replaced by an Information paradigm (Hermes), of transformation, interdependence, dissolution of boundaries, etc. (Bernie Neville, Latrobe U.)  Do you see modernism and postmodernism in evolutionary terms? Was it inevitable that some culture on planet earth was going to become modern/postmodern? Are those evolutionary forces (if they exist) more or less univeral in nature? How are the plate tectonics of culture influenced by the rise of modernism/postmodernism? What is it, if anything, that humanity has in common that would lead to a better world? Western culture’s reaction to the evils of its colonial past (and again, Iran, and muslim culture, has as much an imperialist past as the west, just more ancient) is pluralism and relativism (and beyond that, integralism). Given the tendency toward dissolution of boundaries in the Information Age, why would postmoderns need to distinguish between social reform and religion? New age culture (e.g., the human potential movement, transpersonal psychology, etc.) are, as Kripal says of Esalen an american “Religion of No Religion”. New age culture celebrates transformation. New age religion celebrates transformation. Both forms of transformation contain an awareness of the absence of meaning that instrumentalized Reason created in the world. There is also awareness that a form of spiritual capitalism is necessary. The Achiever meme has to be returned to balance. The integral form of new age culture is aware of the problem of cultural narcissism. The challenge is to create forms of transformational spiritual practice that are authentic, healing, and turn self-absorbsion in a contemplative direction. Industrialism is water under the bridge, it can’t be completely turned back. It resulted in social conditions in which slavery was outlawed, etc.  The world was turned into a smaller, more interdependent, place. It seems that all these questions ultimately point toward holistic forms of culture as the next step beyond modernism and postmodernism. In a holistic culture, paradigms are not at war with each other, they coexist. Again, Wilber’s statement on the “Mean Green Meme”: As I have tried to document, the modern flatland (MOM) ["mean orange meme"] arose in the wake of two major evolutionary developments, one “good” and one “bad.” The good news was the Weberian differentiation of the value spheres of art, morals, and science on a widespread, cultural scale (i.e., the differentiation of the Big Three or the four quadrants). The bad news was that, for various complex reasons I analyzed in Sex, Ecology, Spirituality and A Brief History of Everything, that important differentiation of the value spheres went too far into dissociation of the value spheres, which eventually resulted in the Habermasian “colonization of art and morals by science”–that is, the domination of the interior realms of I and We by a scientific materialism of Its: by any other name, the mean orange meme.   The MOM is the global disaster of modernity (as the MGM is the disaster of postmodernity and the MBM was the disaster of medieval premodernity, etc.). I have written extensively on this MOM pathology, which actually underlies all of the other pathologies being criticized (from global captialism to exploitation). As I have tried to make very clear, flatland (MOM) is the single greatest pathology on the planet right now, and has been for three centuries; the other mean memes are still present, and equally insidious in their own fun ways, but by sheer dint of its power and reach, the MOM gets the prize for nastiest of the nasty memes.   As for the healthy and unhealthy green memes, I always start any discussion of the MGM by pointing out the HGM’s many accomplishments to date: the civil rights movement, feminism, environmental protection and ecological sensitivity, health care reform, political awareness of marginalization in all forms, etc. But I have focused on the damage that the MGM has caused, mostly because that is where the action is in the cultural elite. The MGM is the driving force of boomeritis, and it has dominated academia, liberal politics, and the humanities for three decades. Its damage is staggering, and only made worse by the smug self-satisfaction of these particular Inquisitors.   Of course it is necessary to tease apart the healthy versions of orange from the unhealthy versions, and the healthy versions of green from the unhealthy. But so far, most of the work I have seen in this area still has a strong green bias. therefore, I feel it is necessary to continue to criticize these tendencies, while still encouraging more responsible approaches to this important topic, approaches that are truly all-quadrants, all-levels, all-lines, all-states, all-types. … — http://www.clarewgraves.com/theory_content/quotes.html “I am not saying in this conception of adult behavior that one style of being, one form of human existence is inevitably and in all circumstances superior to or better than another form of human existence, another style of being. What I am saying is that when one form of being is more congruent with the realities of existence, then it is the better form of living for those realities. And what I am saying is that when one form of existence ceases to be functional for the realities of existence then some other form, either higher or lower in the hierarchy, is the better form of living. I do suggest, however, and this I deeply believe is so, that for the overall welfare of total man’s existence in this world, over the long run of time, higher levels are better than lower levels and that the prime good of any society’s governing figures should be to promote human movement up the levels of human existence.” 
     “At each stage of human existence the adult man is off on his quest of his holy grail, the way of life he seeks by which to live. At his first level he is on a quest for automatic physiological satisfaction. At the second level he seeks a safe mode of living, and this is followed in turn, by a search for heroic status, for power and glory, by a search for ultimate peace; a search for material pleasure, a search for affectionate relations, a search for respect of self, and a search for peace in an incomprehensible world. And, when he finds he will not find that peace, he will be off on his ninth level quest. As he sets off on each quest, he believes he will find the answer to his existence. Yet, much to his surprise and much to his dismay, he finds at every stage that the solution to existence is not the solution he has come to find. Every stage he reaches leaves him disconcerted and perplexed. It is simply that as he solves one set of human problems he finds a new set in their place. The quest he finds is never ending.”
    – Dr. Clare W. Graves    guides to meme color codes:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics http://www.formlessmountain.com/aqal.htm  

  • Fubar

    argh. the blog software stripped out all formatting, including line feed/carriage returns. sorry.

  • Wahid Azal

    “There is no reason that most western anglo-liberal/progressive/feminists
    would have access to the deep meaning of iranian gnosis, or the deep
    islamic background that gave rise to the babi movement.”

    Then they should tout court stay away from it completely and return to their own. The Babi movement and the religion it gave rise to is a thoroughly Iranian Twelver Shi’ite Islamic phenomenon. It has nothing to do with the cultural, ethnic or sociological assumptions and experiences of Western non-Iranian Anglo-Liberals/feminists. There is a reason why in the Bab’s perception much of the injunctions in the Persian Bayan (in the event of the rise of a Babi state) specifically refer to Iran and not to Europe or elsewhere. This also explains why the Bayanis have all predominantly been Iranian Nationalists and never bought into this kumbaya globalist/universalist nonsense of Bahaism! Like in Zoroastrianism *autochthony* and the sacrality of the Iranian soil and the Iranian soul has been pivotal to everything the Babism of the Bayan has been about. This mentality is an Iranian one and one Iranians of all hues can appreciate.

    “Is it tragic that they are more uninformed? Yes. Will people care? ummm…”

    It is ultimately irrelevant what non-Muslim, non-Iranian Anglo-Europeans think about any of this because, where it counts, none of this is any of your immediate concern. But, yes, people do care. Most of the correspondence I have had with folks about the religion of the Bayan since 2004 has been coming predominantly from Muslims – Iranian and non-Iranian Muslims alike (mostly of a Sufi or otherwise Shi’a anti-establishmentarian sensibility). In fact it was a member of the British Isma’ili community who invited me to give the presentation I gave about Babism at SOAS (School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London) almost two weeks ago now

    Since I have gone out of my way over the past six and a half years to publicly distinguish Babism and the gnostic religion of the Bayan from Bahaism, Muslims (liberal and open minded ‘traditional’) have been listening and taking note, and they are especially impressed with the Bab and Subh-i-Azal’s esoteric spirituality. Bahaism and Husayn ‘Ali Nuri Baha’, for good reason, maintain a thoroughly tarnished reputation everywhere in the Muslim world as a tool and mouthpiece for Anglo-American (and Zionist) 5th columnist interests, and so the universalist globalism of the kind advocated by Bahaism is generally meaningless and held with scorn and contempt by most nativist intellectuals – religious and secular alike – let alone the masses. Even Iranian Zoroastrians look at Bahaism and Baha’is with a great deal of suspicion (so I would take the hype and ego stroking dished out by emigre armchair regime opponents on sites like Iranian.com or VOA’s Parazit with modest grains of salt). Where it counts, for all attempts at manufacturing consent via corporate lobbyists and the like, Baha’ism is held at arms length (if not outright scorn) universally while the Bayanis (at least in principle) are being more and more taken seriously and so becoming increasingly relevent. The behaviour of online cultist Haifan Baha’is on iranian.com has been instrumental in disgracing Bahaism evern further, and the fact that the liberal/ex- Bahai subculture itself has become progressively more Islamophobic and culturally xenophobic vis-a-vis Muslims and Iranians as time has gone by (especially as represented by demonstrated ethnocentricists – if not outright racists – like Steve Marshall, Sen McGlinn, Starr Saffa and even Eric Stetson)  hasn’t helped your cause at all. So what remains as your potential constituency are the same old, same old confused Anglo-European sub-cultures who haven’t decided whether they want to belong to a social reform movement or a religion.

    “The dynamism of those circumstances is appealing to progressive western
    readers, especially in terms of an image (romanticist?) of a
    revolutionary youth movement engaged in a Kosmic struggle
    against medieval order (premodern social organization).”

    Progressive Western readers, however, need to understand when they are entertaining fantasies and not facts about certain narratives and events they have been peddled, and they especially need to stop from lumping and conflating their own cultural/ethnic/cultural/sociological assumptions on to such facts and events, because when they do such dynamism then becomes one of cultural hegemony (always a Western one) and then re-imagination over the narrative in question. This is what has happened with Western Bahaism where it is really a form of post-Christianity and Western instrumentalist rationalism cloaked with the packaging of Iranian Islamic origins. In other words, since even before Shoghi Effendi, Bahaism in the West has had virtually nothing to do with its cultural origins on any level other than the most superficially banal.

    “To state the obvious (again), that kind of narrative is basic to western modernism.”

    Which from my point of view is the core of the problem to begin with, at least where metanarratives are concerned anyway.

    Anyway, that said, there have been a few Westerners who have been able to transcend such barriers, and at least where narratives are concerned have been able to go to the source of things. One of these is Henry Corbin, who for a 20th century Frenchman, was able to penetrate the spiritual core or Iranianity like no one before him or since.

  • Fubar

    Starr,

    Thanks for the further comments, I read them all.

    I partly grew in japan, so I appreciate contemplation. I partly grew up in the usa, so I appreciate science. I see them as two parts of a whole life. To me, science is one way of discovering the wonder of the universe and life, contemplation and spiritual practice another. My guess is that most of the benefit of contemplation can be removed from its cultural trappings without doing violence to the basic reason for contemplation. If done carefully. Of course that process is also one situated in (postmodern) culture.

    I do not personally see a need for a Divine origin (which is a cultural construct that I understand is valid for some people), but I do think in terms of buddhist emptiness, which is probably very similar.

    Similarly, I do not personally feel a need to place the idea of the Point of unity in the center of understanding spirituality, but I see how it is a valid way that some people and cultures create meaning around spirit.

    (I like the idea of a big messy, kinky drama in a pantheon of greek gods or shanistic spirits better than a god that is always trying to get into people’s heads to control thoughts and keep track of what their are doing with the stuff in their underwear. lol.)

    If there were an advanced species living in a solar system that had two suns, their cultures would probably have an esoteric theory of two points of unity (?).

    I view the “manifestation stuff” from the outside. I attempt to understand how to respect how it is important in other people’s cultures. (“three faces of God/Spirit” seems like a good start.)

    I have no problem admitting honestly at being somewhat repulsed by “second-person” spirituality in western religions, and not understanding it in any deoth. (sorry!) At some point maybe I’ll have time to work though that and heal around it.

    I’m happy that people see Tahirih as one of many people of her time (a revolutionary/dynamic period) who were spiritual geniuses so exalted in their experience of spirit that they were considered to fulfill their culture’s highest status as spiritual people.

    (the alternative being a static, rigidly orthodox Paternal image.)

    My limited experience is that “real” history, when done well, is far more exciting, interesting and inspiring (in the case of revolutionary religious movements) than bad/inaccurate history.

    Light as a metaphor for Beauty, Good, Truth seems universal. I guess it was wired into human consciousness as an archetypes by evolution.

    Druids and many early cultures were centered on harmony of Divine Feminine and Masculine. Great stuff.

    Systems stuff and analysis are part of the whole of human consciousness.  The issue is fragmentation, and parts attempting to dominate.  I think that most metaphysics are dangerous in that they easily slide into superstition. Such a slide can be checked by reason.

    Contemplative practice around healing of “Shadow” seems good.

    We have previously disagreed about some aspects of feminism, but I don’t think that is fatal.

    I would probably greatly enjoy learning more in person about your work as a healer and guide if the opportunity presented itself.

  • Fubar

    OMG. “Adam and Eve, in the parallel universe that made no sense.” lol.

    There might be another script in which there is a parallel universe in which gnosis gets confused with gnocci. Even Bmw would be happy with the flying spaghetti monsters.

    http://www.ntscblog.com/images/fullsize/gnocchi.jpg

  • Freeraylive

     

    Fubar (unregistered) wrote: Thanks for the further comments,
    I read them all.

    FreeRay: Thank you for reading and sharing your thoughtful
    perspectives. Some of what I wrote regarding a solution to world problems may
    have sounded simplistic, when indeed it has a complexity of its own underlying
    the process. J  I’ll take this opportunity to discuss several
    issues that have recently come to the fore as well as addressing your
    interesting points.
    Fubar: I partly grew in japan, so I appreciate contemplation.
    I partly grew up in the usa, so I appreciate science. I see them as two parts
    of a whole life.
    FreeRay: Yes, I’ve lived in many cultures myself and they are
    all part of how I operate in the world today. I will admit that a good part of
    that experience was simultaneously living in the Persian sub-cultures found in
    those countries/Islands/Reserves – with a few Anglo’s and Locals thrown in the
    mix. Of course, that long time experience of closely rubbing shoulders so to
    speak gave me great insight into the Iranian mind-set and culture underlying
    the liberal appearing smile – certainly there was more depth of belief and
    feeling.

    On the other hand a child living in an Iranian family that
    took the child out of Iran at the age of five to live in places like Germany,
    USA, and Australia would not necessarily provide that child/person
    with an authentic firsthand experienced knowledge of the nuances of the history
    of the country to which that child/person was born, nor the feelings and mores
    operating in that society today. But seeing through the lens of the subculture and
    family unit living outside of Iran might conceivably construct a romanticized
    notion of his or her mother-land that may not be real, or could never be
    reinvented.  This kind of inner conflict
    could be a cause of producing intellectual demonology that causes hatred of the
    conceived ?Other’ while living in the host countries.  Let’s move on past this cultural impact
    discussion, while recognizing that it plays a part in a person’s world understanding,
    and there must be a formula for transcending its limiting factors.

    Fubar: To me, science is one way of discovering the wonder of
    the universe and life, contemplation and spiritual practice another. My
    guess is that most of the benefit of contemplation can be removed from its
    cultural trappings without doing violence to the basic reason for contemplation.
    If done carefully. Of course that process is also one situated
    in (postmodern) culture.

    FreeRay: Exactly! When the controlling mind is quieted down
    the sub and/or ?super- conscious’ Intelligent Mind or Intuition informs the
    conscious mind where rational thought completes the contemplation.
    Fubar: I do not personally see a need for a Divine origin
    (which is a cultural construct that I understand is valid for some people), but
    I do think in terms of buddhist emptiness, which is probably very similar.

    FreeRay: Fair enough, but according to Arabi there are
    several levels of existence and a First Cause on the other side of the Void.
    Some people call it ?God’; but then too, some people call God the ET from
    another planet and forget the First Cause within. Your personal gnsois/gnocichi
    certainly is what is real for you.
    Fubar: Similarly, I do not personally feel a need to place the idea of the
    Point of unity in the center of understanding spirituality, but I see how
    it is a valid way that some people and cultures create meaning around spirit.

    FreeRay: The continual nesting motion you see in a torus configuration
    suggests a point or beginning (holographically speaking)….but that is not as
    conclusive to an individual as experiencing being connected to all that is on
    grid of Wholeness.  Here again, we are
    speaking of different Levels of Existence.

    Fubar: (I like the idea of a big messy, kinky drama in a pantheon of greek
    gods or shanistic spirits better than a god that is always trying to get into
    people’s heads to control thoughts and keep track of what their are doing with
    the stuff in their underwear. lol.)

    FreeRay:  Yes, the
    drama can be episodes of endless joy and delight, where we take responsibility
    for our own Being.

    Fubar: If there were an advanced species living in a solar system that had two
    suns, their cultures would probably have an esoteric theory of two points of
    unity (?).

    FreeRay: Certainly, on one level that would be so from my
    understanding. However, I do think the Pyramid configuration beyond a Central
    Sun of First Cause Design would still be in operation (so as above so below ie…First
    Cause Essence, Central Sun, Galaxies, Solar Systems, Suns, Planets, Humans,
    Cells, etc). Recently Russian Scientists discovered that an increased Glowing
    Plasma (1000% more than has ever been) came into our Galaxy which then came to
    the Solar System and is affecting life on earth in the now. http://www.2012.com.au/Planets_changing.html

    Fubar: I view the “manifestation stuff” from the
    outside. I attempt to understand how to respect how it is important in other
    people’s cultures. (“three faces of God/Spirit” seems like a good
    start.)

    FreeRay: Humanity has matured to a point where we must be our
    own Manifestations – and that entails tapping into All Knowledge which is even
    encoded in our cells. Light actives. However, the Eternal Creating Spirit
    incarnating through Tahirih was a special event of Light to move Humanity
    forward, but Her Message was the Secret Key (Intuitive Knowledge balanced with
    rational proofs).  

    Fubar: I have no problem admitting honestly at being somewhat
    repulsed by “second-person” spirituality in western religions, and
    not understanding it in any depth. (sorry!) At some point maybe I’ll have time
    to work though that and heal around it.

    FreeRay: I agree, it is personal gnsosis that is real. But of
    course in the hagiography of the Baha’i format and all Eastern born Abrahamic religions
    no one can experience beyond their Prophets. This is the Lie. As mentioned
    previously we are being called to be our own Prophets because the connection to
    the top of the Pyramidical Design has now been re-opened through aligning our
    hearts with it so the electro-magnetic Energy can flow – in both directions.
    This is why I liked Peter Khan’s discussion when I first met him on the Navajo Reservation
    all those years ago, although certainly he didn’t explain what I have. Bill Sears’ chauffeur also told me about it…so I could learn to experience it for myself. We
    are all healing from that false concept that kept us living in this plane of
    existence in separation from our own Source of Being.

    Fubar: I’m happy that people see Tahirih as one of many people of her time (a
    revolutionary/dynamic period) who were spiritual geniuses so exalted in their experience
    of spirit that they were considered to fulfill their culture’s highest status
    as spiritual people.(the alternative being a static, rigidly orthodox Paternal
    image.)

    FreeRay: I really like what you say about Tahirih being the
    Trumpet call for fulfilling the highest spiritual status vs. the rigid Paternal
    one.  Tahirih’s influence has reached out
    globally, which of course was Her mission of world uplifting transformation.  Again, to understand Tahirih’s full station
    and impact it would be necessary to consider Levels of Existence which would
    include the Magnetism of Spirit and Creation or Manifesting in the physical
    world. She said she was the Word, and some understand this to be First Causal.

     Islamic Governance,
    according to some accounts, put Tahirih to death and the people of the time burned
    a good deal of Her copious Writings so as to erase Her influence on their
    culture – and or to appropriate the impetus as their own creation using her rightful
    name of Baha and writings.  

    It is logical that Muslims throughout the world, especially Iranian
    Shi’ites, would not want the truth of Tahirih’s Words known and therefore would
    want to keep Her downplayed and contained within their Persian account of
    history. The reason is that she upheld Muhammad’s verse saying he was the seal
    of the Prophets, by closing his and past religious Dispensations while
    beginning a new Universal one where all people could be Prophets. It is
    understandable to me that Muslims around the world may not want it known that
    Tahirih, a high born Iranian woman who could win debates with the clergy of her
    time tore off Her veil in defiance of outdated Shaira laws on the books and as a sign of
    emancipating women.  However, I believe
    Her Universal Message of a Balanced Harmonious Cycle is helpful to know.

    Fubar: My limited experience is that “real”
    history, when done well, is far more exciting, interesting and inspiring
    (in the case of revolutionary religious movements) than bad/inaccurate history.

    FreeRay: There is no way that ?his-story? can be done well
    while you omit, spin, crucify, and burn ?her-story’ out of existence. It just
    then, boils down to a lot phallus awareness playing with itself in endless
    constructs of whose is better. I personally have done extensive research -  but what we know, there is always more to uncover, and understand at higher levels as humanity as a whole becomes more aware.

    Fubar: Light as a metaphor for Beauty, Good, Truth seems universal. I guess it
    was wired into human consciousness as archetypes by evolution.

    Druids and many early cultures were centered on harmony of Divine Feminine and
    Masculine. Great stuff.

    Oh yes, the Hindu’s too…even the Divine Feminine (Alla [no 'h']) is
    the focal cause factor of Islam although the generality are unaware of it. This
    is why Muhammad would say that Fatima is the Mother of Himself, to confirm the
    interactive Oneness of both masculine and feminine principles.

    Fubar: Systems stuff and analysis are part of the whole of human
    consciousness.  The issue is fragmentation, and parts attempting to
    dominate.  I think that most metaphysics are dangerous in that they easily
    slide into superstition. Such a slide can be checked by reason.

    FreeRay: It could be just the opposite – where the
    communication of the unseen ?intuitive knowledge’ is essential for unfolding
    and informing all systems knowledge base, and the rational proofs are there as
    a check and balance mechanism that are not meant to limit.

    Fubar: Contemplative practice around healing of “Shadow” seems good.

    FreeRay: Especially if it neutralizes the negative so that
    Energy can be used for progressive developments instead of endless circles of destruction.

    Fubar: We have previously disagreed about some aspects of feminism, but I don’t
    think that is fatal.

    FreeRay: Oh yes, the word ?feminism? being used as slap down
    silencing mechanism. What could a modern day Qurratiya expect? But of course it
    is not a fatal blow. I did get a big chuckle about the inclusion re feminism
    that you provided in one of your recent posts – where the women having babies
    is the cause of all the world’s ills, ‘as if it didn’t take men to make the
    babies’ so they have no responsibility for the ills :).  This is where a little good rational science
    would be helpful, excluding the cloning experiments.

    You may have been mistaken though, to think that it is only
    Western culture that has been reproducing without a full family backing. In
    fact under Shar’ia Law a man can take four wives and have endless ?temporary’
    wives with little or no responsibility for the children born of these temporary
    contracts. As a result, many times, the male children have to earn living as
    catamites, and girls become servants and temporary wives. The point that is
    different is that the Government is not out of pocket. This issue of ?responsible
    reproduction’ is one of the modern day Tahirih Path Advices, so that the
    parents must be prepared to be viable and support their children in order to be entitled to
    have them. Another aspect of it is not to create unwanted children.

    Fubar: I would probably greatly enjoy learning more in person about
    your work as a healer and guide if the opportunity presented itself.
    FreeRay: Oh yes we could have some meaningful exchanges I’m
    sure. I had hoped to look you up one time when I was in San Francisco. Perhaps a new time  opportunity may present itself some future date.

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  • Freeraylive

     When the conglomerate of words came into my personal email – I didn’t know if I was going to be able to make sense out of it…but reading here on the site it isn’t all one big paragraph that scrolls across the page – so I found it to be a good read with many excellent points. Still no clear formula for advancing past the inherent pathogens plaguing the Hu-man of today.

    Then in my post – the program spreads the words out so far that it is almost painful. So here we are at two ends of the spectrum with an integral connection. smile

  • Freeraylive

    Hi Craig -
    “. It makes sense.Like Rodney King said “Why can’t we all just get along?” I like you both
    but both you and
    Starr have accused me at various times over the years
    of being a “planted agent” from Haifa!” 

    Well dear Craig I apologize if I falsely suggested such a horrible occupation for your Brilliant Mind. I know that I was getting annoyed that year after year I thought your posts said you were in the Faith for 32 years – when I knew time was advancing and you were still in the Faith. I do love to read your posts in the present day – and look forward to your wonderful scripts. And with the statement you kindly made here I am indeed a Craig fan regardless of any suggested previous positions (“I also like Starr’s writings very much! The Divine Teacher for this
    World Age being a woman pushes my button indeed.”).

    Now all that humor about the two people in Brisbane where East meets West did bring laughter.

    “Meanwhile, the world moves on. Right now software engineers are building
    the technological planetary thought atom where anyone on Earth can
    INTIMATELY communicate with anyone else on Earth.  THAT is a game
    changer! I am very glad to be one of those true radicals. I can’t wait
    to get back to work Monday”

    In the Quantum Science chapter of Tahirih Thealogy I present the development of such a machine that was made here in Perth. It is such a marvel that you can feed any problem into it and it can produce the best ‘Spiritual Fix’. I’d like to take all our cultural baggage and endless circular thinking  and ask it if it will mean anything at all in the new paradigm (Tahirih Era).

    You know how I dislike the ‘killing mentality’ of the meat eaters – well there is good news. I read yesterday that science says we don’t have to kill animals to get a steak sandwich anymore, because we can grow it in a dish from cells from the beasts. Immediately I started thinking about packaging hero and heroine sandwiches so you can be who you eat – talk about the Oneness of Humankind! The possibilities are endless and really good for a movie script.

  • Fubar

    Will be away for a while, so only have time to respond to a couple of items. 

    First cause. Creation stories/myths. More cultural construction, I understand and respect how this produces meaning, and has been part of all systems of thought/belief. From a scientific perspective, it is unknown. Can’t be proven or disproven.

    Clinging/attachment is source of suffering, illusion.

    Detachment is useful in preparing for many worst case scenarios were one’s thoughts and life experiences are simply inadequate. Being detached can mean having a quiet enough mind to “really listen” to a different viewpoint and have empathy for it, or “get it”.

    Since I’m doing laundry, I thought about another screen play that Craig might be interested in:

    Religion is TV advertisements about household products. Detachment is the anti-static dryer sheet of life.

    There might also be something in the movie about stain removers and the sauce spots on clothes from eating gnocci.

    Feminism.

    This is really part of the discussion about “Mean Green Meme” (and Mean ___ Meme, fill-in-the-blanks).
     
    The salient points were that there is a “taboo”. When revolutionaries take over, the commit the same sins as the regime they overthrow (forcing others to accept “better ideas”).

    I see no good coming from thought policing and political correctness.

    That said, it is a kosmic, revolutionary imperative to stop oppression based on sex descrimination.

    This throws things into a state of disequilibrium, however. Men are confused about roles. There is little conscious in culture about how roles have changed for men, and what it means, good and bad. There is a lot of misalignment of sex related issues.

    In the case of the corruption of public education and social work bureaucracies, there are vast failures that are being propped up by postmodern ideologies. If belief in a “liberal” ideology leads to social chaos and suffering, then it has to be admitted that some part of the conservative critique is valid. And vice versa.

    Conservatives locate evil in personal responsibility.

    Liberals locate evil in social structures.

    Either perspective can, and has, become absolutist, and instrumentalized in the culture wars.

    Integralists think both perspectives are valid, and seek a balance, an end to conflict between paradigms.

    Same with Reason/science and Faith/spirit. Both check each other and are in balance in a wholistic paradigm. Easy to say, hard to do.

    I hope all the BR folk will be well and good, if possible, and as appropriate.

  • Fubar

    Another little tangent, and something that may contribute to consideration of what postmodern religion in the Information Age might end up being about, for better or worse:

    http://www.yesmagazine.org/happiness/jim-gilliam-the-internet-is-my-religion

  • Craig Parke

    Thank you for the nice post! Maybe Nima is not fond of you, but I am! I do like the Tahirih Theology concept very, very much. Regardless of the origin, this New World Age is about the pure EMPOWERMENT OF WOMEN whatever the SOURCE. All bets are now off. I just go with the esoteric planetary visitation of the “Maid of Heaven” as the Source in someone’s mind. That is enough for my theology.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izYTskwE0As

    Too bad the hapless BAO is on the wrong side of the incredible mind bending forces of the new unfolding World Age. But things have to move on.

    Things could get very interesting for me. I am 55 minutes on the page in my current film script and it is working extremely, extremely well.

    Meanwhile, what is very nice in that “Zepparella” clip I posted is that their NEW Base Player used to be a lawyer or something and just said f* it all and decided to go with Rock and Roll as a career instead. It just does NOT get any better than THAT in life! Liberation from the dying Hive Mind. So here is another clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPpN_rL3Ugo

    Hey! And Gretchen Menn’s new “red tint” look works for me!

    Best to you!

    Craig

     

  • Wahid Azal

    ” Islamic Governance, according to some accounts, put Tahirih to death…”

    This is Islamophobic hyperbole and nonsense as insidious as the kind regularly put out by Fox News. No account says Qurrat’ul-’Ayn was out to death by “Islamic governance” because Qurrat’ul-’Ayn was put to death on the orders of the king and not of the clergy. Furthemore, the Qajars did not rule according to Shar’ia. They ruled according to their absolutist whims.

    ” and the people of the time burneda good deal of Her copious Writings so as to erase Her influence…”

    As they did the writings of the Bab as well. And FYI a good portion of the writings of Tahirih were actually destroyed by Baha’is on the orders of Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri and not of Muslims because these writings would hurt the interests of the Baha’is and not those of the Bayanis or the Muslims. There is still a trove of her unpublished writings  kept intact by her descendents. A good portion of this material has been promised to me and I plan to publish every last leaf of this material when it does finally fall into my hands. Unfortunately for you, Ms. Saffa,  this material will only embarrass you when it is published.

    “It is logical that Muslims throughout the world, especially Iranian
    Shi’ites, would not want the truth of Tahirih’s Words known and therefore would want to keep Her downplayed and contained within their Persian account of history.”

    This is pure Islamophobia and a discourse of hate (much like Antisemitism) projecting itself onto those it perceives as the ‘Other’. There is no such attempt by Muslims. Muslims also include Sufis, Shi’ite gnostics of both Twelver and Isma’ili persuasion, and they don’t have any interest in suppressing Qurrat’ul-’Ayn or her writings. The only forces who have an interest in actively suppressing her narrative and writings are the Baha’is and those like Ms. Saffa who have fabricated a sui generis narrative regarding Qurrat’ul-’Ayn that bears absolutely no relation to reality.

  • Wahid Azal

    Craig, the only reason why you and the Marshall camp support Starr Saffa is because she is one of your own and you will pull rank with one of your own: a white Anglo-American woman actively engaged in manufacturing discourses of the Mid Eastern/Islamic/Persian Other whom your mass media and collective conscious tells you to scorn and be suspicious of and which your sick Islamophobic Bahai culture has further cultivated. If Saffa had been a living Persian or Arab woman, you would never be so quick to jump on her bandwagon. Your faux pas about Tahirih being murdered by her own husband told me everything, later demonstrations of your “liberal guilt” notwithstanding. This is the bottom line, so who are you trying to kid?

    BTW why wasn’t a single word of protest uttered by any of you when an African-American man, Cal Rollins, was summarily disfellowshiped from the Marshall-controlled talisman9 list recently? You beat your chest for Saffa but couldn’t care less when an uppity African-American Baha’i (presumably one of your own co-religionists) is treated shabbily.

  • Craig Parke

    Dear Wahid,

    You write:

    “Craig, the only reason why you and the Marshall camp support Starr Saffa
    is because she is one of your own and you will pull rank with one of
    your own…”

    I see the world much bigger than “Marshall camps” and “owns” and “not-owns”. The Baha’i and Bab’i Faiths and who was and who wasn’t  esoteric Sufi Rock Stars in the 19th Century are now small potatoes in the greater scheme of things my Friend.

    After Two devastating World Wars and endless brush fire wars, It is all much ado about nothing. Nobody has learned a thing or will ever learn a thing on this highly impaired planet ruled by highly impaired people.  Sure the Hindu/Zoroastrian/ garbled Egyptian transmitted “End of the Age” Warning of the completely un-original Abrahamic religions is indeed upon us regarding the invention and inevitable use of nuclear weapons, but it is making no difference whatsoever on any system of insight among the soul less of ALL religions and ALL political ideologies on this planet.

    So it is better to just try to avoid being in certain cities on certain dates down the road. I believe that knowledge is encoded too. Do not be in New York City on any Tisha b’Av (9th of Av) for the next 90 years. But real cosmic enlightenment is just not possible at any level on this planet. I tried on many levels. I guess film is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Many have tried there too and failed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncdlqob1QtM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDe3AVCqb4

    All we can hope for now is the rise of the Internet may somehow make a difference with the next generations to come of age before catastrophe for many. That is why I am happy to work toward planetary communication in my profession.

    Wahid, you are a brilliant man. I like you very much! But why do you have to have such a big chip on your shoulder all the time year after year? Why are you always looking for trouble and seeing snakes where there are only the tails of monkeys? You seem to be saying I don’t fancy Middle Eastern women as compared to Western women? But the truth is I fancy all women! Well, except for that terribly irritating nasal accent Iranian women seem to often have when they translate into English. I will confess that THAT ACCENT does annoy the s**t out of me and was always a deal breaker for me in my youth.  Just irritating as nails on a black board! But other than that one human foible, I see everyone pretty much as equal when it comes to East and West. All my comments over the years on Iranian Brill-O pad pubic hair were just jokes.  Please have a sense of humor! I just always loved Paul Rodriguez’s hysterical stand up act on the pubic hair differences of the people of the world.

    I must say I do fancy American white women who are comedians and I am in touch with Vanessa Hollingshead about my latest film script.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEzMc0c86iE

     But if you can find me a nice Iranian woman who can do stand-up I will certainly consider writing her in?

    Best to you!

    Craig

    The World Age moves on!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alXlC3OQIR0

  • Craig Parke

    Oh! And I never go to Talisman anymore so I honestly did not know about Cal Rollins getting booted? I LOVE his poetry! But I am allergic to the word “ontology” if you know what I mean (wink, wink) and so I left that site long ago.

  • Wahid Azal

    “I see the world much bigger than “Marshall camps” and “owns” and
    “not-owns”. The Baha’i and Bab’i Faiths and who was and who wasn’t 
    esoteric Sufi Rock Stars in the 19th Century are now small potatoes in
    the greater scheme of things my Friend.”

    In your culture of consumerist materialism, where everything is reduced to a highschool type popularity contest, this stuff is small potatoes to you. But where it counts, it counts.

    “After Two devastating World Wars and endless brush fire wars, It is all much ado about nothing.”

    And who started these two world wars? Middle Easterners, Muslims, Iranians? No, Anglo-Europeans.

    “But why do you have to have such a big chip on your shoulder all the time year after year?”

    Right. When a man of color from the Middle East, an Iranian, rails against the hypocrisies and double-standards of people such as yourself and Saffa, we have chips on our shoulders – or in worst case scenarios we are fanatics and terrorists! Yet when you and people like yourself do the same, it is something else. It doesn’t even occur to you that you people have taken our culture, our narratives, our soul, what is sacred to us and trivialized and boxed it into your own soulless, consumerist, materialist and banal pseudo-cultural angst, yet expect us to be grateful to you. I, for one, I am not grateful that a dishonest and ridiculous individual such as Starr Saffa is taking the narrative of an ancestor and twisting it beyond recognition for her own largely egotistical, hype purposes, while people like you support her. This is deeply offensive. If you don’t get that, then don’t complain when someone like myself comes along to tell you a thing or two and call folks like yourself by what you are.

    Let me ask you and Starr Saffa, for all your suspicious, paranoid rantings about the Islamic Other, how long have any of you people actually lived in the Mid East/Islamic world and spent time there? How closely have you interacted with the culture? Which of its languages do you know? None.

    The reason the world is going to hell in a hand-basket lies squarely the responsibility of the corrupt modernist Anglo-European civilization. The reason is because, even amongst Western “liberals,” you people still believe you are the masters of the universe. Innately (whether expressed or not) you believe all non-white people are inferior to you and that you have an inherent right to preach about what rightfully belongs to us. While you romanticize the figures and narratives of cultures not your own, you never allow people of those originary cultures whom you romanticize to represent their own. You insist that you have more right to the icons and figures of those cultures than the peoples of those cultures themselves while masquerading behind globalist/universalist platitudes as the excuse to do that (this here is an indictment of the whole Bahai culture now).

    What can a California/NYC born and bred ’60s era hippy like Starr Saffa possibly know about the life, circumstances and cultural mindset and assumptions of a Qurrat’ul-’Ayn? Nothing. How many days has a Starr Saffa walked in the footsteps of a Qurrat’ul-’Ayn? None. Which of the languages of Qurrat’ul-’Ayn does Starr Saffa know? None. Which of the texts that Qurrat’ul-’Ayn considered to be proof-texts animating the foundations of her intellectual and spiritual universe has Starr Saffa engaged with? None. What does Starr Saffa know about the overall mythos of the weltanschaaung that drove Qurrat’ul-’Ayn in her role? Nothing. When did Starr Saffa read a single text by Qurrat’ul-’Ayn in the original languages? Never!

    Get all high and mighty all you like about the state of the world, but kindly don’t preach to me about chips being on shoulders. Your first faux pas to me was a slur about a Muslim man murdering his wife (attributing this to Tahirih’s husband)! Your very assumption about Qurrat’ul-’Ayn demise is built upon a fictitious yet ethnocentric/racist narrative about this great woman’s family.

    The fundamental reason why people like you and Starr Saffa do the kind of things you do to the cultures and icons of those not your own is precisely because you have chips on your shoulder! A deep ingrained suspicion, mistrust and even hatred of Iran, Iranians and the culture that spawned a phenomenon such as Qurrat’ul-’Ayn is what animates all of you. It is in the social narrative that people such as Starr Saffa, Steve Marshall, Sen McGlinn, Eric Stetson and Eric Pierce (fubar) have adopted in virtually every angst-ridden conversation regarding the subject. It manifests in the way you all treat people from that part of the world who speak up: with utter disdain and superiority!

    So kindly don’t preach, and, moreover, I couldn’t care less who you know in Hollywood!

  • Freeraylive

    Quick response in case you can pick it up along your travels. I have a lot of business too – Basically I agree with much of what you wrote.

    Agreed, First Cause explanations don’t always satisfy. Who really knows what it is all about? Yet some have experience with a Super-conscious awareness.

    But I would agree with you that attachment to any one way or belief is a problem. In Tahirih Thealogy I make it clear that all things can be true and operational at the same time.

    Detachment is an essential quality for opening up intuitive knowledge – indeed in my experience it is worth ‘Listening to’. It is also essential to quieting the ego down so that one can see clearly. For my work of creating New Earth Energy detachment from the present constructs are essential. *I love that anti-static metaphor for detachment.

    “it is a kosmic, revolutionary imperative to stop oppression based on sex discrimination.”

    A simple definition of ‘feminism’: “says that it is a movement
    for social, cultural, political and economic equality of men and women.” Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/1697184  I really appreciate your attention to the changing roles and misalignment between men and women in today’s transitional environment. I suggest, as perhaps a next step, that an Androgynous awareness would be helpful in order that men and women look at themselves as whole Beings and are freed up in the society to explore their male and female aspects. It would bring more understanding to the individual and gender issues imo.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1974207/combined

    “Conservatives locate evil in personal responsibility.Liberals locate evil in social structures.Either perspective can, and has, become absolutist, and instrumentalized in the culture wars.Integralists think both perspectives are valid, and seek a balance, an end to conflict between paradigms.

    Regarding Integralist Theory, I would say that Tahirih Thealogy does deal with the same goal of achieving balance and an end to conflict, but it injects that vision with goals of transcending old belief systems (religiously, politically, and socially) so that it isn’t weighed down by the patriarchal archetypical constraints of a closing paradigm.

    Thanks for the discussion. 

  • Freeraylive

    Fantastic – Jim Gillian “Connected we are God” – Religion beyond Religion (Tahirih Path tenant)
    The connection is already there with or without the internet – it is just a matter of plugging into that awareness.  Thanks for that video Fubar.

  • Freeraylive

    Nima – I don’t usually read your posts, but scrolling down I found an interesting passage that you wrote referring to Tahirih:

    “There is still a trove of her unpublished writings  kept
    intact by her descendents. A good portion of this material has been
    promised to me and I plan to publish every last leaf of this material
    when it does finally fall into my hands. Unfortunately for you, Ms.
    Saffa,  this material will only embarrass you when it is published.”

    It occurred to me that you could write a book about Fatima-Tahirih-Qurrat’ul-Ayn right now in English, Farsi, German, etc. that would have the potential to be a best seller.

    Let the Book stand on it’s own merit, without reference or worry about a ‘very obscure book (Tahirih TheAlogy) written by an even more obscure Western woman you call Ms Saffa’, or any of the other books written by non-Iranians. Forget their limitations and produce your impressions and knowledge of a great nineteenth century heroine.

    There is a lot of material already out there that you know of, and the people you know can at least let you read what Tahirih wrote so you can get the jest of it to use for a present publication.

    When you get more of Tahirih’s Writings then you can translate and publish them as a follow up to your published books about Tahirih.

    I feel very positive about you doing this, and I can even see you lecturing in University Halls and eventually in Tehran.

    Who knows what the future holds, so the time for you to do this is now.  With all your knowledge and background you are poised to be the one to write it. The more your books  and talks are delivered the more obscure becomes Western material developed about Tahirih that you find so objectionable.

    It is possible you can have something ready for print by mid December and I think your presentation could be a beautiful work of art. Good Luck, if you decide to go forward.

  • Hanstellih

    Intellectual superiority without humility is the gate way to perdition.

    You are talking of Spirituality but in your veins are kindle the flame of “”obscurum per obscurius”.

    Mr Wahid Azal why the original text of Nuqtatul kaf are untraceable.

    Cheers.

  • Craig Parke

    I fully agree. Nima is a brilliant man and is the person that should do this. This is a very important work a scholar should do. Please consider this Nima. I myself bear you no ill will at all. Why can’t we all just get along for the good of future generations? Only the truly esoteric interpretations will find life and discussion as the new World Age unfolds. Everyone’s spiritual level is going up as people are empowered to think for themselves and leave the disastrous Hive Mind of the last 3,000 years. I would love to purchase and read a book that you would write on this subject. I really would. I am very sincere about this wish.

    Best to you kind Sir!
     

  • Craig Parke

    Nima,

    Please see my below post under what Starr wrote to you. I only wish you well my Brother. You are a truly brilliant man. Thanks for taking the time to write a long post back to me even though you are upset. I understand your argument. But I won’t argue religion anymore with anyone really. I have left the Hive Mind of all the Abrahamic religions including the top down Baha’i Faith group think organization. But I think INDIVIDUAL Sufi based esoteric discussion is very worthwhile as an exploration of finding Cosmic Law and Cosmic Truth. This is the essence of film writing at it’s deepest level. A good film is a discussion of Cosmic Law and Cosmic Truth at 24 frames a second. I have enjoyed all of your esoteric writings that I have found on the Internet. They are wonderful!

    Best to you!

    Craig

  • Freeraylive

    Craig, your enthusiasm for moving forward in the now and future into an enlightened, vibrating, individually-empowered, harmonious collective is always an exciting read. Indeed, you have centered in on the thrust of my work also.

    TheAlogy, while upraising women in the world to take their rightful healthy Empowerment, also is inclusive of maintaining healthy empowerment and nurturing the society’s men in the name of equality and oneness.

    As such I am very fond of the work these people are doing:

    http://ultimatemancourse.com/course/UltimateMan

    One of the courses is entitled: “Activating the Sacred Masculine”.

    This is part of the TheAlogy we advocate too. Not only for the sake of men, but for women also. Their masculine side has been shaped by a paternal outlook that has gone amuck in today’s warring world and is in need of developing ‘sacred’ masculine within. A lot of the Ultimate Man Course is directed at contacting the God-Power within.

    The following is a prayer beautifully sung that was inspired by Tahirih while meditating by the oceanside for just this purpose. Surely, to be the Transformational Teacher that She was/is She would have had Her Masculine and Feminine powers balanced and fully operational. The prayer/song is entitled “Illuminating the Masculine Energy” and is written as the second entry on the page. The vocal link is at the bottom of the page – and I think it makes the words become so much more heartfelt. Let me know what you think.

    http://starrsaffa.com/tribute.htm

    ‘ILLUMINATING THE MASCULINE ENERGY’

    Oh Divine Self at Source, God within,
    Assist me to transmute my negative masculine
    energy
    Into positive illumined energy
    So that it will be in harmony
    With the Design of Glory and Splendor
    A light and blessing this world
    and in all the Divine worlds

    Let the attribute of my masculinity
    Reflect those brilliant virtues that uplift, inspire,  and create beautiful Paradises in the Eternal Gardens of joy and bliss……
    With Love and Thanksgiving——>

    *I think the Divine Feminine coming forward at this time into our civilization will give men and women a Sacred journey, especially as the two interactive aspects of Beings harmonize. This process applies to all the peoples, cultures, nations – because like Jim Gillian said about the New Day Religion: “Collectively we are God”

    *You know we need a movie about that!!!!

  • Wahid Azal

    And false humility and pretensions to it is the ruse of the Devil and an even faster path to perdition. Better to speak the Truth and let it explode like Fire, then lie and pretend. True humility is also predicated upon a balance the absence of which negates it and, moreover, humility (khuzu’) is due only to the Spirit not to man! This is something Bahaism is simply incapable of ever grasping.

    The original text of Nuqtat’ul-Kaf by Hajji Mirza Jani was probably destroyed when he was killed in the summer of 1852. But early copies exist from 1853 (a year after his death) in the Miller collection at Princeton: http://findingaids.princeton.edu/getEad?eadid=C0723.1-47&kw

    Recently Mr Kavian Milani has made the incredulous claim in his Encyclopedia Iranica article on the Nuqtat’ul-Kaf http://iranica.com/articles/noqtat-al-kaf that an earlier manuscript exists in Haifa. But this claim is a fiction concocted by Mr Milani himself and has absolutely no basis in fact.

    On another unrelated note: as of today the Fatimiya Sufi Order which I head has filed a formal religious discrimination complaint against the wikipedia taskforce of the Bahai Internet Agency (and by default the Haifan Bahai organization) to a body that investigates and reports on such matters as regards to their activities on that site in seeking to marginalize, censor, bully, coerce and delete narratives that their leadership in Haifa deems troubling. Since we are not Baha’is and are being bullied by BIA Bahai editors Edward321 and Jeff3000 – and their assorted posse of pencil-neck fascist bureaucrats – this case reveals one of outright religious discrimination by the Haifan Bahai organization towards a non-Bahai group on wackopedia such as ours. We plan to pursue this matter as far as it will go. We have cited the situation with the UB wiki page and the BIA’s censoring and deleting of that article and have likewise cited similar instances when they have done it to the OBF, BUPC and their excising of the reference to Soraya Adambakan’s book in the entry on Tahirih Qurrat’ul-’Ayn, and similar.

    All differences and wrangling of the past aside, I would suggest to those groups and individuals who are interested in bringing the BIA’s wackopedia bullying to book to contact me. I mean business with these fascist mf-ers and mean to bring the BIA and its leash-holders in Haifa to heel and publicly embarrass them in the media for their continued harassment, discrimination and bullying! This is a golden opportunity to stop these fascists once and for all.

  • Wahid Azal

    A book discussing Qurra’tu’l-’Ayn from a Corbinian perspective, including complete translations of all her poetry and prose (ones much better than the obtuse, unimaginative, disappointing and flat translations of her poetry undertaken by Amin Banani and published by Kalimat Press), including material cited by various sources in original source languages but never actually studied, has been in the pipeline by me for some years. The book is entitled THE HOURI OF BADASHT: The life, times and writings of Qurra’t’ul-’Ayn. I am waiting on the aforementioned material before I put this thing out and such a book about Qurra’tu’l-’Ayn also needs preliminary contextualization that requires extensive translations of the works of the Bab himself. Meanwhile someone needs to translate Soraya Adambakan’s dissertation from German into English. This study is the most outstanding critical piece of work on QA thus far written, and it makes the Baha’is look like the revisionist, narrative sanitizing and lying intellectually dishonest creeps that they are and have been from day dot.

  • Craig Parke

    I would love to read that book. Please do it. This would be a tremendous contribution.

  • Hanstellih

    Mr. Wahid Azal, Iam none of your groups neither the Haifan.

    Both you and your counterpart have made a forgery out of the original.
    The original have been found some years after the death of Mirza Jani but then disappeared and never been found up to now.

    You know it.
    You are well aware about it.
    Don’t play the innocent victim.

    cheers.

  • Wahid Azal

    That is quite a claim.

    How have the Bayanis made a forgery out of the original of Nuqtat’ul-Kaf? And where was the original text found? There are two manuscripts of Nuqtat’ul-Kaf in the Miller collection dated 1853 given to him by Jalal Azal. There are two manuscripts of Nuqtat’ul-Kaf originally in the Bibliotheque Nationale of Paris which are the two manuscripts that E.G. Browne used for his 1910 edition of the text published by E.J. Brill in Leiden, Netherland, as part of the E.J.W Gibb Memorial Series. The Bibliotheque Nationale manuscripts originally belonged to Comte de Gobineu (the French diplomat to Iran and racialist) who acquired them in in Iran in the early 1860s. Until E.G. Browne informed Subh-i-Azal about this history by Hajji Mirza Jani Kashani, Subh-i-Azal nor any Bayani referred to it. In fact this history by Hajji Mirza Jani actually is quite idiosyncratic in that it articulates positions about Subh-i-Azal that he outright rejected, viz. that he was He whom God shall make Manifest (man yuzhiruhu’Llah). The NK forgery theory was one first articulated by Abbas Effendi and Mirza Abu’l-Jahl Gulpayagani as a means of discrediting the book. This forgery theory by the above has in turn been discredited by pre-revolutionary scholars such as Muhit Tabatabai as well as by Denis MacEoin, not to mention Milani and McCants (the former who is now waffling about what he said in print in 2004).

    If any forgery has occured, more than likely such a forgery would have been at the hands of Muslim detractors of both the Bayanis and bahais, not by Bayanis. But this is nonsense. The Book of the Point of Kaf is an authentic text reflecting the self-understanding of the Babi community up to 1852.

    If, however, you have evidence that this text has been tampered by the Bayanis, kindly put it forward. More than likely this hubris.

  • Hanstellih

    Mr. wahid Azal,
    If Mirza Jani, passed away in 1852 why the history continued till in the Land of Mystery.(One manuscripts in Paris).
    Is someone else is associated with ?

    If Subh i azal the successor of the Bab but denied to be ”man yizhiruhullah” what would this change in the mindset of the Bahai.
    As they have pre conceived and encrusted such conception all others are unbelievers or covenant breakers.
    even if you publish the Book you believe that it will have cause and effect.

    What will this change?
    I

  • Namayn

    After reading the various comments above, it struck me that instead of trying to take sides with the various participants in the whole Babi-Bahai Movement up to the present including Bahaullah, the Bab, Qurratul Ayn, Subh-i-Azal , Ghusn I Akbar , Abdul-Baha etc. and the list goes on that it would be more fruitful for me to find the good in what each said and did since the fallibility of all these participants has been fully established in my mind. There was a lot of the good, bad and ugly in all their actions.  God Passed By, touched a lot of imperfect folks that have participated in this Movement and a pretty good foundation has been laid for those healing leaves to be culled from all that transpired as long as we put aside all the Covenant – Breaking, He’s the Anti-Christ, am I this or that kind of Bahai, Babi. I with my superior intellect and knowledge know the truth about all this and you don’t etc.I mean as an example the 60s produced a lot of good music as well as bad and mediocre music. Lennon created some beautiful music as well as some dogs. I did not see too many take up the Beatles camp and reject all the rest of the good music. A lot of good things of beauty were created by all. I have just had it with all the various camps being created. We should learn from all and build upon that and be forgiving of their faults and limitations due to the times they lived. Ultimately it is the present and future generations that recognize this  whole ongoing Manifestation of God and put in place what makes sense and can help bring peace and unity to this troubled world.

  • Wahid Azal

    With all due respect, you have several issues garbled, and you are definitely not speaking about the Nuqtat’ul-Kaf. There is no manuscript of Kitab Nuqtat’ul-Kaf that continues the history up to the period of the so-called Land of Mystery (i.e. Baha’i-speak for Edirne) which is in the period of the late 1860s (1865/6-9). The history of Hajji Mirza Jani Kashani ends in all of its existing manuscripts in the early Baghdad period. If a version of Nuqtat’ul-Kaf exists that continues beyond 1852, that manuscript is without a doubt a forgery – and one forged, most likely, by the Bahais since they have had a documented penchant for forgery and fabricating sui generis histories such as Hamadani’s Tarikh-i-Jadid and Nabil Zarandi’s Dawn Breakers (who no one apart from Shoghi Effendi has actually ever seen in the original). Such a manuscript would also be a forgery because we have manuscripts with colophons as early as 1853 (only a year after Hajji Mirza Jani’s martyrdom following the anti-Babi pogrom unleashed by the state and clergy upon the Babis after the botched assassination attempt on Nasiruddin Shah instigated by Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri but which Bahais have subsequently blamed on Shaykh ‘Azim Turshizi).

    The history of Hajji Mirza Jani Kashani is pivotal for a number of reasons and it is a shame that E.G. Browne didn’t have the chance to translate it himself but instead translated Hamadani’s Tarikh-i-Jadid which he admitted in the introduction and appendices was actually a re-Imagined, conflated and fabricated piece of Bahai revisionist propaganda. Firstly, Nuqtat’ul-Kaf accurately portrays the mindset and self-understanding of the early Babi movement well into the early Baghdad period when Subh-i-Azal was the recognized Supreme Figure of the Bayani gnostic faith. Second, there are numerous citations and quotations made by the author in it that proves documents such as the Will and Testament of the Bab are authentic and that the appointment of Subh-i-Azal is as that document and others have portrayed it. Third, it portrays the Babi movement in its true phenomenological light and not with the passive, fluffy and pseudo-Christian Western platitudes that Baha’is have portrayed it over the 20th century to largely squeamish and generally clueless Western (Islamophobic) palates. Third, it adequately represents the Babi theophanology and how this played out in the minds of the early Babi community, and so on and so forth.

    What the Baha’is make of Nuqtat’ul-Kaf has already been enunciated by polemicists such as Mirza Abu’l-Jahl Gulpayagani, by Abbas Effendi himself and those who parroted their positions up to a contemporary such as Kavian Milani whose position is, frankly, schizophrenic and intellectually dishonest, to say the least. Because of this, what the Baha’is ultimately make of it is completely irrelevant. However since this is the earliest Babi history (and I have stated before that it is a hiero-history), on its own merit alone deserves to be translated in full! What effect this translation will have, is not up to me. But this history is one testimony to history that must be allowed to speak, as it were, and a translation that gives a wider audience access to this narrative is long, long overdue.

  • Hanstellih

    Mr Wahid Azal.
    Thanks a lot.
    I studied these manuscripts.
    I have my opinion.
    But I am happy we have had this discussion.

    All the best.

    God bless.

  • Wahid Azal

    There can never be peace or unity without justice. Period!

  • Desir0101

    O SON OF SPIRIT!
    The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

    Who is right , who is wrong ?????
    Just nature’s spirit can answer.
    The deep silence must reveal the hidden answers.
    Where is the balance??
    Where is the TRUTH?????.
    How can justice and unity erected on falsehood.
    This has never been and will never be.
    The fulcrum will be set up and unity will be restored.

  • Wahid Azal

    “How can justice and unity erected on falsehood.”

    It cannot. That is why after 148 years since his false claim, the creed founded by Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri is fragmented, disunited, at war with itself and with others, while that Light (nur) Illuminating (ashraq) from the Dawn of Pre-Eternity (Subh al-Azal) is once more shedding its traces upon the Talismanic-Temples of Unicity (hayakil al-tawhid)!

  • Wahid Azal

    What is the name, location and identifiers for the manuscript you claim continues Hajji Mirza Jani’s history to the Edirne period? Who was the scribe who transcribed it? What is stated on the colophon of the manuscript?

  • Masud

    How surprising; a compilation of guttersnipe hit-jobs on Peter Khan that reek of condescension and petulance.  (admittedly, Baquia’s post, although dry, isn’t defamatory)  Congratulations to the most frequent contributors to this blog; your smear tactics have lived down to my expectations.  I would like to know one thing though: do you guys wake up every morning, froth at the mouth and wonder in what ways you can disparage Baha’is and the BAO? It sure seems like it.

  • Wahid Azal

    Yes, we do. Just as the Shi’a curse the first four caliphs and the sahaba/companions as usurpers of the Ahl al-Bayt and enshrine such cursing as an article of faith (i.e. tabarri), the ritual cursing of the BAO – and in my case the founders of Bahaism Mirza Husayn ‘Ali, Abbas Effendi and Shoghidelic  in the first instance – is an article of faith which will derive great reward in the hereafter (i.e. sawwab).

    La’ant-e-abadi bar Mirza Husayn ‘Ali Nuri va qawm-e-zalemash! La’nat va la’anat va la’anat!

     

  • Masud

    There is no polite way to put this Wahid, but I really didn’t expect anything at all from YOU of all people. As well as being a vulgar producer of your own spectacle, you’re at best a shifty fantasist with delusions of grandeur.

  • Wahid Azal

    Vulgarity is the very existence of people such as you and shifty fantasists with delusions of grandeur are shameless ultra-Zionist/Anglo-American puppets such as you and your entire cult who build meglomaniacal spectacles on Mt Carmel. Praised be unto God that one of the essences of vulgarity, Peter Khan, is presently snug lying inside the bowels of hell rotting alongside his infernal master and the founder of your creed.

    La’nat va la’anat va la’anat-e-khoda bar qawm-e-zalem!

  • Bird

    It’s hard to read the whole blog with so much data responses to comments removed.  Must have been pretty bad cause Baquia had a very liberal latitude with posts.  Just curious about the reference to Ayn Rand… something wrong with her philosophy?  She is one of my favorite authors.  As for Mr. Khan, isn’t he like Mr. Ruhi?  Didn’t I read somewhere he wrote & published them? 

  • Bird

    correction, Baquia “has” a liberal latitude with posts…

  • Peter

    My, what a distasteful conversation, demeaning the good name of someone in this way, particularly the poisonous rantings of one particular poster, whose threats to the good name of others is also well known (I expect him to wish me dead after this post and possibly make specific threats to that effect).

    Dr. Khan was a human being who was brilliant and, like all of you here, flawed. The Universal House of Justice as an institution is different and greater than the sum of the 9 individual human beings who are elected to it. Dr. Khan did not control the Universal House of Justice’s decision-making.

    As for subjugating women, what twisted logic makes membership on the Universal House of Justice a subjugation of women? No matter what its composition, the Universal House of Justice is charged with ensuring that spiritual, legal, and social equality of women and men is established. It is one of the fundamental principles of the Baha’i Faith. The membership of the House of Justice clearly has nothing to do with inferiority of women or superiority of men. It’s wisdom will be known in the future, I have no doubt.

    Not one of the men of the Universal House of Justice, known to me personally over a period of years, can be described as corrupt or power hungry. That cannot be said for some of the comments here, which taste of wormwood,  smoke, and brimstone, or the sound of animals in the dark scrabbling for some chance to eat away the foundations of an edifice.

    “The benighted attackers have been shaken to their core; they are now as ruined sepulchres, and even as blind creatures that dwell beneath the earth they creep and crawl about a corner of the tomb, and out of that hole, from time to time, like unto savage beasts, do they jibber and howl. Glory be to God! How can the darkness hope to overcome the light…”
     (‘Abdu’l-Baha)

    May you all find the grace of God and the capacity for generosity. You too will die one day. Pray that others will be kinder to you.

  • Wahid Azal

    Peter Con’s inhumane existence demeaned whatever name he possessed, let alone good. His instrumentality in creating rifts and divisions in my greater extended family has earned him not just my cursing of his pitiful, malefic existence, but that of several other members of my extended family as well. His death and one way voyage to his master in hell was as much a cause of rejoicing to us as the day the Ayatollah Khomeini died in 1989. May Peter Con burn in hell and may his fellow fascist theocrats in the BAO follow him there. Amin!

  • Freeraylive

     Peter asks: “As for subjugating women, what twisted logic makes membership on the Universal House of Justice a subjugation of women?”

    President Carter explains it best now that a New Earth is Dawning – and any person that cares about social justice would follow his lead rather than belong to an ‘institution’ that perpetuates the omission of women in the top community decision making – certainly that is not of God Almighty.

    Former President, Jimmy Carter, leaves his religion after
    sixty years because they are in violation of the DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS by
    discriminating against women. His letter is at the end of this discussion. In
    his message he identifies that religion is used to abuse the female population
    and states: “Women are prevented from playing a
    full and equal role in many faiths”

    I belonged to such a religion for several decades, namely the Baha’i Faith. At
    the same time that they will not allow women to be part of the top decision
    making process in the community they are telling the public and members that
    they believe in the equality of women and men. Clearly, as Carter has pointed
    out, keeping women from equal roles in the Baha’i Faith is discrimination and a
    form of unjustified abuse.

    This practice of keeping women in secondary positions in the Faith has existed
    since its inception in 1863, a practice which abrogates the equality
    established by the Bab and Tahirih in their religious movements of the 1844
    period. Interestingly the Baha’i Faith says it is the fulfillment of Babism. So
    here is a clear case before our eyes that demonstrates what Carter is talking
    about where a religion starts out with equality and then is appropriated and
    used to subjugate by men who are seeking power over women and souls for
    personal agendas. Some people try and start splinter groups of Baha’i but they
    are still stuck with the patriarchal format that the founder set up. Personally
    I have peeled away the ‘lies’ and gone back to the root purity vision which was
    given to humanity by Tahirih to begin a new Universal Era based on the God/dess
    within the individual. She wrote: “With the Power of Equality injustice will be no more.”

    Groups like the World Bank are beginning to throw money at third world
    countries to work on the problems of the women of the world. I suggest that it
    is more important to get to the root causes which affect attitudes and
    behaviour in third world countries, which is religion being used as a tool to
    keep women depressed and from having equal rights and input into the Social
    Justice Systems of the world. Please enjoy and think about Jimmy Carter’s
    message, because it hits on root causes of the world’s problems with eyes wide
    open.

    LOSING MY RELIGION FOR EQUALITY
    * Jimmy Carter * July 15, 2009

    Women and girls have been discriminated against for too long in a twisted
    interpretation of the word of God.

    I HAVE been a practicing Christian all my life and a deacon and Bible teacher
    for many years. My faith is a source of strength and comfort to me, as
    religious beliefs are to hundreds of millions of people around the world. So my
    decision to sever my ties with the Southern Baptist Convention, after six
    decades, was painful and difficult. It was, however, an unavoidable decision
    when the convention’s leaders, quoting a few carefully selected Bible verses
    and claiming that Eve was created second to Adam and was responsible for
    original sin, ordained that women must be “subservient” to their
    husbands and prohibited from serving as deacons, pastors or chaplains in the
    military service.

    This view that women are somehow inferior to men is not restricted to one
    religion or belief. Women are prevented from playing a full and equal role in
    many faiths. Nor, tragically, does its influence stop at the walls of the
    church, mosque, synagogue or temple. This discrimination, unjustifiably
    attributed to a Higher Authority, has provided a reason or excuse for the
    deprivation of women’s equal rights across the world for centuries.

    At its most repugnant, the belief that women must be subjugated to the wishes
    of men excuses slavery, violence, forced prostitution, genital mutilation and
    national laws that omit rape as a crime. But it also costs many millions of
    girls and women control over their own bodies and lives, and continues to deny
    them fair access to education, health, employment and influence within their
    own communities.

    The impact of these religious beliefs touches every aspect of our lives. They
    help explain why in many countries boys are educated before girls; why girls
    are told when and whom they must marry; and why many face enormous and
    unacceptable risks in pregnancy and childbirth because their basic health needs
    are not met.

    In some Islamic nations, women are restricted in their movements, punished for
    permitting the exposure of an arm or ankle, deprived of education, prohibited
    from driving a car or competing with men for a job. If a woman is raped, she is
    often most severely punished as the guilty party in the crime.

    The same discriminatory thinking lies behind the continuing gender gap in pay
    and why there are still so few women in office in the West. The root of this
    prejudice lies deep in our histories, but its impact is felt every day. It is
    not women and girls alone who suffer. It damages all of us. The evidence shows
    that investing in women and girls delivers major benefits for society. An
    educated woman has healthier children. She is more likely to send them to
    school. She earns more and invests what she earns in her family.

    It is simply self-defeating for any community to discriminate against half its
    population. We need to challenge these self-serving and outdated attitudes and
    practices – as we are seeing in Iran where women are at the forefront of the
    battle for democracy and freedom.

    I understand, however, why many political leaders can be reluctant about
    stepping into this minefield. Religion, and tradition, are powerful and
    sensitive areas to challenge. But my fellow Elders and I, who come from many
    faiths and backgrounds, no longer need to worry about winning votes or avoiding
    controversy – and we are deeply committed to challenging injustice wherever we
    see it.

    The Elders are an independent group of eminent global leaders, brought together
    by former South African president Nelson Mandela, who offer their influence and
    experience to support peace building, help address major causes of human
    suffering and promote the shared interests of humanity. We have decided to draw
    particular attention to the responsibility of religious and traditional leaders
    in ensuring equality and human rights and have recently published a statement
    that declares: “The justification of discrimination against women and
    girls on grounds of religion or tradition, as if it were prescribed by a Higher
    Authority, is unacceptable.”

    We are calling on all leaders to challenge and change the harmful teachings and
    practices, no matter how ingrained, which justify discrimination against women.
    We ask, in particular, that leaders of all religions have the courage to
    acknowledge and emphasise the positive messages of dignity and equality that
    all the world’s major faiths share.

    The carefully selected verses found in the Holy Scriptures to justify the
    superiority of men owe more to time and place – and the determination of male
    leaders to hold onto their influence – than eternal truths. Similar biblical
    excerpts could be found to support the approval of slavery and the timid
    acquiescence to oppressive rulers.

    I am also familiar with vivid descriptions in the same Scriptures in which
    women are revered as pre-eminent leaders. During the years of the early
    Christian church women served as deacons, priests, bishops, apostles, teachers
    and prophets. It wasn’t until the fourth century that dominant Christian
    leaders, all men, twisted and distorted Holy Scriptures to perpetuate their
    ascendant positions within the religious hierarchy.

    The truth is that male religious leaders have had – and still have – an option
    to interpret holy teachings either to exalt or subjugate women. They have, for their
    own selfish ends, overwhelmingly chosen the latter. Their continuing choice
    provides the foundation or justification for much of the pervasive persecution
    and abuse of women throughout the world. This is in clear violation not just of
    the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but also the teachings of Jesus
    Christ, the Apostle Paul, Moses and the prophets, Muhammad, and founders of
    other great religions – all of whom have called for proper and equitable
    treatment of all the children of God. It is time we had the courage to
    challenge these views.

    OBSERVER

    Jimmy Carter was president of the United States from 1977 to 1981.

     

  • Peter

    The Southern Baptists and others have denomination-wide strictures on women as clergy, following in other areas the restrictive sayings of Paul.  The Baha’i Faith has one limitation, which is the membership of the Universal House of Justice.  A greater percentage of members of National Spiritual Assemblies, Local Spiritual Assemblies, and Counselors are women than are the clergy or administrators in any other religious group that I know of.  Counselors also have higher rank than individual members of the Universal House of Justice.

    As a practical visible demonstration of equality, it seems to me the Baha’i Faith has it in actual fact.

    BTW does the preference for girls to receive education if a family has limited funds indicate a discrimination against men? By your definition, it should.

  • Peter

    Your vicious attacks on the Baha’i community, its members, and individual believers demean you, Nima. The corrosion of your hatred harms only you.

  • Barbruthw

    Well, you are a breath of fresh air, although I don’t agree with everything you say.  Amen to your last paragraph, however.

  • Barbruthw

    The fact remains that there is one ultimate policy-making body, and all Baha’is are expected to abide by their policies without question.  Women have no voice on this body.  If women, as women, present a balancing view, then that balance is absent on the UHJ.  On the other hand, if they are the same essentially as men, any difference being a negligible one, then why exclude them?  In other words, Baha’is accept women in any administrative capacity – i.e. carrying out the policies which have been set.  They do not, however, have a direct role in making policy.

    My Webster’s, under “administration,” refers to “the execution of public affairs as distinguished from policy-making.”

    Women do have a voice with their vote.  However, with the recent custom of replacing vacancies on the UHJ with members (male, of course) from the ITC (do I have that right?), who are all appointed by the UHJ…well, you can see the problem.

  • Wahid Azal

    Anything I have said pales into insignificance given the vicious, malicious, deceitful, systematic, concerted and below the belt attacks of your community, its founders and its present leadership on the community of the Bayan and the Central Figures of the Bayan. You have some nerve lecturing me about ‘hate’ when ‘hate’ is the master narrative of the story of how your creed was founded. To wit, ” O phlebotomist of the Divine Unity! Throb like the artery in the body of the Contingent World, and drink of the blood of the Block of Heedlessness for that he turned aside from the aspect of thy Lord the Merciful!” (Baha’u’llah)

    Peter Con was a demented fascist and corrupt functionary and his death and removal from this plane is a matter of great universal rejoicing among a lot of people. I am sure the Taheri family in Perth, Australia (the ones not taken in by the hate campaign initiated by Peter Con against their late father Hamid Taheri) are also rejoicing loudly. I will also readily admit publicly that I spent years ritually cursing this sorry excuse for a man, and it appears that my ritual cursing of Peter Con finally had its intended effect of removing this sorry bastard from this plane and sending him straight were he belongs rotting inside the deepest bowels of hell! This man hurt a lot of good, good people, interfered in their lives and families, and for that he has gotten his just deserts. As such screw you and your community!

  • Desir0101

    In a battle there are no winner but all losers.

    Every one Haifan or non haifan  are but victims of their own religious belief.

    History have been forged, falsified, tampered, deviate from TRUTH since the birth of the Revelation.

    No one will ever know the Truth.

    Every one will create his own universe befitting his own reality.

    But not absolute.

  • Wahid Azal

    In the battle of Good versus Evil, Good is ultimately the winner. Actors in this battle do not matter.

    The Truth is out there for anyone with eyes. Light be upon those who follow the Illuminations of the Guidance!

  • Masud

    “If women, as women, present a balancing view, then that balance is absent on the UHJ”
    Although there are undeniably certain distinguishing features present in men and women, I think the above phrase commits the error of “groupism” i.e. the tendency to think and act (or in this case treat members ) as a group. I’m not sure there is an overarching and inherently distinct view that women have “as women.”  The female community, so to speak, isn’t a monolithic or homogenous bloc, and to some degree, to consider it as such could be considered as sexism.

    Additionally, you left out an essential element in your last paragraph concerning the ITC as a “gateway” appointment, namely that the electorate votes for the House members, so unless you think Baha’is all around the world are brainwashed buffoons (an opinion held by many on this blog), it seems to me you’re going to have to at least consider that elections have consequences.

  • Barbruthw

    You put many words in my mouth – and since you are obviously a quite intelligent being, I assume you realize that is what you are doing, and you do it intentionally.

    I was not taking either position – that women as women are inherently different, or that women are essentially the same as men, with a few negligible differences.  The point was that whichever position you take, it is illogical and unreasonable to exlude them as a group (or as a monolithic or homogenous bloc, if you prefer) from the policy-making segment of government.  That would be akin, for instance, in the U.S.A. to excluding women from Congress.  This might give many Baha’is pause.

    I wonder if you might be the one who considers Baha’is as brainwashed buffoons, since you apparently assume that electors will not eventually become concerned about the inherent problem in UHJ members being drawn from a small pool of UHJ-appointed “candidates,” and widen the pool to include people who are elected by Baha’is – NSA members, or others. There is no Baha’i principle behind voting only for men appointed to the ITC – it has become custom merely; there is no regulation which compels this.  And that is why I am hopeful, because I have great confidence in the collective wisdom of ordinary folks.

    Many years ago, when I was a new Baha’i, a prominent traveling teacher for the Faith presented the unique aspect of Baha’i government – a combination of “top-down” (the guidance of the Baha’i writings, including those of the Guardian) and “bottom-up” (grass-roots, beginning at the local level with LSAs, then progressing to NSA’s, and culminating in the election of the UHJ.) The present “custom” short-circuits the grass-roots, bottom-up part in a way that I believe was not intended.

    Time passes, things change, and they will change again, God willing.

  • Fubar

    Hey Bird,

    Hope you have been well.

    I just got back from europe (vacation/family business), sorry for the delayed response.

    As far as I can tell/remember, the deleted posts were mostly inane  blather. The person making those posts was defending bahai administration (which requires belief on God) from the (supposed) viewpoint of (variously buddhist or Hitchens) atheism! totally contradictory nonsense.

    From what I could tell, the person was simply expressing an incoherent disagreement with any form of bahai dissent, or nonconformance, or criticism of bahai administration, or mainstream thinking – while at the same time advocating for the viewpoints of some of the major european scientific atheists (Hitchens, Dawkins, etc.)!

    I’m about 99.99999999999% sure that Hitchens and the other “horsemen of the (atheist) apocalypse” would consider that bahai belief in God, “Manifestations”, and infallible religious leadership to be pure nonsense.

    Similarly, Hitchens would defend the criticism of bahai administration (or any other premodern religious institution) that is the main theme of this blog by defenders of free expression and objective scholarship.

    The deleted posts contained no coherent viewpoint, added little to substantative discussion, and were full of insults and personal attacks on the author of this blog and anti-AO contributors.

    Ayn Rand’s philosophy has been criticised for being narcissistic and nihilistic by many legitimate thinkers. As you know, Rand was a product of cold war forces, but her anti-totalitarian (anti-soviet/anti-communist) analysis became a tool of neoliberal advocates of “free market” globalism, which has created vast damage.

    Alan Greenspan (former chief of the US Federal Reserve bank), who was a devotee of Ayn Rand for decades, admitted a few years ago in front of the USA Congress, after blubbering about how sorry he was for making huge economic policy errors that led to massive economic damage to working people, that most of his important ideas about economics and society (which were derived from Rand’s ideology), were wrong.

    Rand’s philosophy was/is popular as a libertarian form of counterculturalism and anti-establishmentarianism, but it has various basic problems, and it tends to encourage of cultism.

    I do not think your will find much of anything of substance in Rand’s work giving insight into legitimate forms of counterculture spirituality or the related areas of consciousnes studies (such as those that developed from Transpersonal Psychology or the Human Potential movements).

    From the viewpoint of Integral thought, Rand is a “flatland” modernist, who collapses all categories of meaning into scientific rationalism.

    Habermas referred to this way of constructing meaning as “colonization of lifeworld by systems”.

    If you are interested, I’ll try to find some archival material from a retired humanities professor at Harvard (independent/libertarian) who has been critical of the left, and is one of the world’s experts on Machievelli, who points out how he has to correct many of his students’ bad ideas that were derived from reading Rand.

  • Fubar

    As I said before, I hope that Khan’s spirit is liberated from the suffering and clinging to power and ego (that it was bound to in life on the physical plane of existence) as it enters the Great Emptiness.

    Khan was the single worst symbol of intellectual and spiritual corruption at a high level of global haifan bahaism.

    Khan was a vile encourager of fundamentalism and other superficial and inauthentic forms of spirituality.

    Khan was a clever deciever who promoted spirituality while working against spiritual liberation and for a broken, exploitive and oppresive version of religion.

    Khan’s life follows a pattern typical of manipulative sociopaths in positions of power – poeple lacking in true compassion and altruism.

    Khan rose to popular and power by promoting false ideas and pandering to people’s weaknesses.

    Khan attempted to barter access to spirituality, one of the deepest and most vile human activities possible.

    The particular weaknesses that Khan promoted on his rise to power were all of the things that have been pointed out on this blog for years as being wrong with bahai culture.

    If you are incapable of understanding or accepting that those things are wrong with bahai culture, then you will never understand the validity and legitimacy of the criticisms of Khan’s hideous corruption of religious leadership.

    What is distasteful is your defense of a deeply dysfunctional form of religious culture and associated institutional religious leadership that is incompetent, conformist and autocratic.

    People’s yearning for spirituality is valid, but the way that Khan exploited such yearning, and lowered it to the level of a broken, missionary culture that promotes false religious superiority, is deserving of deep revulsion.

    Khan was the product and advocate of a dysfunctional religious culture.

    Khan squandered his talents and energies on a project that is largely a construct of illusions and lies.

    Khan was a person incapable of speaking against the many injustices within bahai culture.

  • Fubar

    As I said before, I hope that Khan’s spirit is liberated from the suffering and clinging to power and ego (that it was bound to in life on the physical plane of existence) as it enters the Great Emptiness.

    Khan was the single worst symbol of intellectual and spiritual corruption at a high level of global haifan bahaism.

    Khan was a vile encourager of fundamentalism and other superficial and inauthentic forms of spirituality.

    Khan was a clever deciever who promoted spirituality while working against spiritual liberation and for a broken, exploitive and oppresive version of religion.

    Khan’s life follows a pattern typical of manipulative sociopaths in positions of power – poeple lacking in true compassion and altruism.

    Khan rose to popular and power by promoting false ideas and pandering to people’s weaknesses.

    Khan attempted to barter access to spirituality, one of the deepest and most vile human activities possible.

    The particular weaknesses that Khan promoted on his rise to power were all of the things that have been pointed out on this blog for years as being wrong with bahai culture.

    If you are incapable of understanding or accepting that those things are wrong with bahai culture, then you will never understand the validity and legitimacy of the criticisms of Khan’s hideous corruption of religious leadership.

    What is distasteful is your defense of a deeply dysfunctional form of religious culture and associated institutional religious leadership that is incompetent, conformist and autocratic.

    People’s yearning for spirituality is valid, but the way that Khan exploited such yearning, and lowered it to the level of a broken, missionary culture that promotes false religious superiority, is deserving of deep revulsion.

    Khan was the product and advocate of a dysfunctional religious culture.

    Khan squandered his talents and energies on a project that is largely a construct of illusions and lies.

    Khan was a person incapable of speaking against the many injustices within bahai culture.

  • Fubar

    Hey Masud,

    The prohibition on women be elected to the UHJ is an absurd form of “groupism”. The complete lack of any logical or scriptural basis has been debated for many years. The only defense of the exclusion ultimately rests of irrational, premodern constructs, and autocracy (corrupt, elite power, lack of accountability and transparency).

    Basic equality is a larger issue than that of postmodern feminism, which has many flaws and problems.

    The electorate are not functioning on a rational basis, they are being manipulated into voting to maintain the status quo.

    Many examples of attacks on nonconformsts at national conventions and similar venues provide sufficient evidence of the real operations of bahai electoral processes as a mechanism to enforce conformism.

    The simple fact is that nothing creative or original has come from bahai administration for a very long time. Rather, there is dysfunction, incompetence and exploitation, bartering of access to spirituality.

    Any competent sociologist would recognise the forms of manipulation and groupthink in about 15 minutes of observation of a typical bahai community.

    Bahaism is a culturally and paradigmatically limited construct of a specific culture that is incapable of being open to all forms and paths of spirituality.

    Bahaism provides few useful answers to the problems of postmodern culture.

    Any rudimentary, scientific examination of the evolutionary origins of the human species will quickly lead to the realizations that:

    1) there are more than two human genders,
    2) gender differences are deeply imprinted into human beings for evolutionary reasons, including:
    3) cultural, physical, intellectual, and psychological,
    and
    3) those differences are not univerally applicable to all members of a given gender (there is wide variation of experssion)

    The existence of real gender differences has no relation of the issue of women to religious institutions.

    The exclusion of women from a body such as the UHJ is nothing but an example of backward, premodern religious culture.

    The attacks by a male religious body, and its various defenders and apologists, on bahais that refuse to conform of such backward beliefs, is a sad example of the kind of autocratic religious culture that is typical of the backward society that bahaism rose from.

    Such attacks are the opposite of the spiritual liberation, pluralism and univeralism that people yearn for.

    Such attacks do nothing but cement the image of bahaism as a backward religion controlled by fundamentalists.

  • Fubar

    Desir,

    Thanks for the excellent observations.

    The basic point of Integral theory is to advance the idea of developmental theory/theories as a legitimate paradigm for understanding human existence (consciousness) and its advancements and regressions.

    As modernism (and its fundamental premise: scientific rationalism) disintegrates, along with its social, political and economic structures, and as postmodernism flounders in political correctness and “style over substance”, humanity is in search of some higher form of organization that will give meaning to life in an interconnected, global culture.

    The old paradigms are in a natural state of conflict with each other. Liberalism seeks to destroy conservatism, and vice versa.

    Postmodernism seeks to destroy modernism (and vice versa), both seek to destroy premodernism.

    A viewpoint that weeks to seek truth in all of its various forms will potentially lead to a more compassionate, altruistic form of spirituality that does not need to be in conflict with other paradigms, and does not need to impose itself via a missionary paradigm, or via postmodern political correctness/thought policing.

    The metaphysics developed in premodern cultures provide a way to rediscover the cultural roots of spirituality in various cultures.

    If such spirituality can become pluralistic, and then evolutionary, it may provide a path away from the historical need for “in groups” and conflicts between people holding to various paradigms.

  • Fubar

    The foundations of modernism and postmodernism are weakening and becoming increasingly discredited. Imperial systems are collapsing and undergoing a crisis of legitimization and potential regression to lower orders of stability/order. (Koestler)

    (Democratic republics {state capitalism} are becoming Corporate Plutocracies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Preston , see below )

    Regression to hero myths will not likely be culturally expressed in a manner that is pluralistic or democratic.

    How can tradtional forms of spirituality provide a path through, and out of, the disintegration and chaos of modernism and postmodernism (see further below for one description of such disintegration) without being regressive?

    How can traditional forms of spirituality provide the basis of a response to the problems of power and money destroying the “lifeworld” and culture of the people?

    http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/econn/econn112.htm

    excerpt:

    | The phrase ?means of acquiring credit? …
    | is a particularly significant one as the purpose of state control over
    | banking and the issuance of money serves to narrowly constrict the
    | supply of available credit which in turn renders entrepreneurship
    | inaccessible to the majority of the population at large.  Indeed,
    | Murray Rothbard argued that bankers as a class ?are inherently
    | inclined towards statism? [4] as they are typically involved with
    | unsound
    | practices, such as fractional reserve credit, that subsequently lead to
    | calls for assistance from the state, or derive much of their business
    | from direct involvement with the state, for instance, through the
    | underwriting of government bonds.  Therefore, the banking class
    | becomes the financial arm of the state not only by specifically
    | underwriting the activities of the state, such as war, plunder and
    | repression, but also by serving to create and maintain a plutocracy
    | of businessmen, manufacturers, politically-connected elites and
    | others able to obtain access to the narrowly constricted supply of
    | credit within the context of the market distortions generated by
    | the state’s money monopoly. [5]

  • Fubar

    googling “harvey mansfield ayn rand C SPAN. ” didn’t turn up anything containing details of Manfield’s criticism of Rand, at least not that was easy to find.

    Apparently C-SPAN’s “booknotes” archives don’t go back to 2005, which is when I probably heard Manfield’s comments about Rand on C-SPAN.

  • Guest

    What a Universal house of justice beitoladle aazame elahi
    14 years ago this house promised to answer about a very delicate situation created in Rome and also in Canada

    i am still waiting

    Extremist ?? what are you talking about?

    Bahai from Babi from Sheikhi from Shiah 12 Emami from muhammadan islam and you talk about a person LOL

  • Wahid Azal

    A poem from Rumi’s Masnavi for Peter Khan/Con

    ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?

    A bad death with a hundred ignominies, O father
    Have you ever seen a martyr to a donkey’s penis?
    – Rumi (my trans.)

  • Sarmad

    If you have innocently wandered onto this website please do not take at face value what you are reading.  This is a nest of hysterical Baha’i haters who are trying to fool you.  I strongly advise against ingesting this brand of opium.  It is addictive but utterly corrosive and damaging.  For instance, tonight I have been unable to pull myself away even though I feel violently sick.  Wahid Azal’s remarks may shock you, but it is fairly easy to visit a few websites and discover more about him.  Then you may be able to judge better.  However, best just to ignore this trash.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=626152926 Nima W. Azal

    Yes, search more websites with my name to learn more about the nastiness of Bahais and how these people are the mirror copy of the fascists ruling Iran, on one hand, and how their whole establishment is a comprador lackey to the agendas of Anglo-European neo-colonialism in the Middle East.

  • Fubar

    Excellent example of the typical Jungian (psychological) shadow that is used to maintain dysfunctional bahai culture/administration.

    Everything you say (ignoring personal insults, which are prohibited by your religion) is actually just a “mirror” of what is wrong within haifan bahaism:

    1. mainstream bahai groupthink promotes “hate” of nonconformists, critics, dissidents, reformers, etc.

    2. constant brainwashing (“opium”) is promoted within mainstream bahaism, unexamined cultural biases, exploitation by bahai administration and leadership elites is ignored, and bizarre historical incidents of abuses largely “forgotten” within mainstream brainwashed/opiumized culture. Attacks by bahai administration on scholars and activists such as Mazandarani, Louis Gregory from an early time in the religion’s history, and have continued.

    3. bahai lies and deception are “addicting” – in spite of overwhelming evidence of a dysfunctional organizational culture and lots of very bad theology, people continue to defend and support the mainstream haifan bahai religion, which regularly exploits people then covers up the damage to protect the shared illusion that the religion is “perfect” (purity myth) and is guided by “infallible” entities.

    When all the above problems are pointed out, a critic is accused of being “spiritually inferior”.

    mainstream haifan bahaism seeks to convert people and then exploit them.

    the version of religion you are promoting is very unenlightened, and culturally imperialistic.

    your own religion tells you that because it has become dysfunctional, it would be better not not have it.

    what is it that you do not understand?

    why do you cling to illusions and lies that have nothing to do with reality?

    it is very east to find many other spiritually oriented groups that promote enlighenment, spiritual transformation and social change/justice in far better ways than does mainstream haifan bahaism.

    http://www.wiserearth.org was set up to coordinate a list of (one million) 1,000,000 NGOs and other civil society and sustainability groups that actually work for a better world, without needing to convert and brainwash people (which is what you are trying to do).

    please stop the lies and instead, actually do something to make the world a better place, without the absurd, backward religious insanity and dysfunctionality.

  • Anonymous

    Ok. I haven’t been on this site for some time because it’s gotten so confusing to read through all the long posts by just a handful of people. So unfortunately, I’ve ignored the site for the most part. But today, I was bored. :) So…
    Peter, the problem is that on this issue as so many others you are stuck in the letters of secretaries writing on behalf of Shoghi Effendi. Wether you are correct or the other posters are correct, doesn’t matter. The truth is that not permitting women on an elected body simply because they have a vagina is DISCRIMINATION. Go look up that word please. So I don’t care how you try to bend it backwards, forward or sideways, in the end it is a slap in the face to the principle of equality of the sexes- PERIOD! So do all the mental gymnastics that you want to do to prove to yourself that it is not discrimination, but it is. So don’t feel shocked or annoyed when normal thinking people in this world are being taught that the Faith believes in the equality of men and women and then you turn around and tell them, but women aren’t allowed on the ultimate decision making body. Why? Well because of dogma. Because it says so right here! 
    Can you not see for a second how your mentality is absolutely no different from the fundamentalist Christian who does the exact same thing when pointing to the Bible? You are really no different; but unfortunately Bahais still wanna believe they are so progressive and new. NOT!

  • Anonymous

    Well Masud, why wouldn’t incumbents want to protect their jobs? Wouldn’t you? Why wouldn’t someone who’s done nothing all his life but to get paid through the Bahai funds not want to continue in that, when they maybe aren’t suited at this point in their life for much else? If you knew you could guarantee your job security having ‘served’ for so long in a position, would you do it? Of course you would. What you may take as a negative worldly view devoid of the high level of spirituality one needs to just trust elected Bahai officials, is actually the normal thinking person’s view in this world. SO don’t be surprised if people consider YOUR view of such mindless acceptance a little fundamentalist in nature or what you termed “brainwashed buffoons”. But again Bahais live in this cloistered world of their  own where they think their system and their views are just PERFECT. Meanwhile the rest of the world just shakes its head “you are a cassette tape thinking it is an MP3″. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=626152926 Nima W. Azal

    Juan Cole has made quite a compelling argument that the rise of Baha’ism, a
    religious offshoot of Babism, can be considered in favorable lights as a form of indigenous modernity. See his Modernity and the Millennium: The Genesis of the Baha’i Faith in the Nineteenth-Century Middle East. New York: Columbia University Press, 1998. Though cogent and worthy of critical attention, Juan Cole’s argument is untenable. From its very inception, the pacifist universalism of Baha’ism has played squarely into the hands of British colonialism, and as such has been a hindrance rather than a help in the course of Muslim and Arab encounters with their colonial conquerors.

    Hamid Dabashi, Islamic Liberation Theology: Resisting Empire (Routledge: New York, 2008) p.269n19.

  • Concourse on Low

    If you have innocently wandered onto this website please take Sarmad’s comment as an illustrative example of the lamentable level of discourse current in the Baha’i community.

  • Fubar

    Nima, as you probably know far better than I do, Cole has been seriously discredited because of his statements in support of the war in Libya.

  • Fubar

    Hey CoL,

    agreed.

    most bahai bullying of critics and dissidents in cyberspace are unsophisticated, pathetic and cowardly. Sarmad’s cowardice is typical. He is presumably used to some fascist LSA or Ax. Bored Members doing the dirty work attacking   bahai nonconformists, critics or dissidents that pop their heads up in normal life.

    to be fair and balanced, compassion should be extended to people that have been brainwashed by evil forces.

    also, please comment on “CESNUR Paper: Bahai Dissent by Bei Dawei” , if possible.

  • Fubar

    Far more distrubing is the evidence that abdul-baha really did think that having women on “houses of justice” was a bad idea in some cases. Well, actually that could be understandable in the case of attacks by religious extremists in Iran 100 years ago. But not in the case of the Chicago bahais, which is what the issue was originally about.

    The far more distrubing aspect is that some obscure historical documentation has been “frozen in time” and used far beyond the original context, to legitimize institutionalized gender discrimination.

    There is a cultural “logic” (or “illogic”) behind the issue: in the bahai system, the cultural expression of autocratic male power is preserved, including the dreary and predictable islamic theology/ “interpretation” that justifies (male) “infallibility”. Daddy-God archetype writ large.

    The bahai system, as practiced, is rigidly orthodox and reactionary.

    All complaints, protests, non-conformance, dissent, or criticism are marginalized and attacked to preserve the underlying mythic-conformist belief in the need to preserve autocratic male power.

    Such a belief is culturally limited, and far from “universal” in the positive sense of the word.

    On a practical level, allowing women at a high level would probably not result in reforms within bahaism in the short term, the women selected would be products of the system, and initially would most likely only “dare” to ask for very small changes (if any).

    Controversy about a change agenda at a high level would most likely backfire on reformers in the short run and make them “unpopular”.

  • Amado

    Amen!

  • Amado

    Nice analogy – religion should be like “music” – lots of variety, all beautiful!

  • Starr* Saffa

     When the Intelligent Mind is used for Truth it becomes apparent for those who have eyes…:) 

    I read that Teachers/Prophets once came to different parts of the world where assistance was needed. However, the people chose what they wanted to practice from those teachings.

    So I like your idea of honing in on the Guidance that uplifts…presented with musical art (being discerning not to pair such music with what is not in alignment with the Divine Will). 

    Here is a recent publication of a video that celebrates the Ever-Creating Spirit that Tahirih Manifested.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyptLOJw6yc

    And another one about Free-Will. It is useful as humanity moves away from separation.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1yNJXRoh3s&NR=1

  • http://www.facebook.com/danjjensen Dan Jensen

    Cole can be informative but has proven highly biased and given to taking sides, and so he must be taken with a couple heaping teaspoons of salt.

  • http://www.facebook.com/danjjensen Dan Jensen

    I have only this to say:

    KHAAAAAAN!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54

  • Wahid Azal

    He is also apparently a consultant working for the CIA these days:
    http://warisacrime.org/content/meet-professor-juan-cole-consultant-cia

  • Wahid Azal

    Cole is a giant ass. A complete, total and complete jerk of a Neo-Liberal sell-out and war-warmongering nincompoop! Like I just posted to Dan, he is also apparently consulting the CIA these days. That said, here another quote for the ages about Bahaism from the same book by Hamid Dabashi:

    “What the Babi Movement of the middle of the nineteenth century and the Constitutional Revolution of the end of the nineteenth/beginning of
    the twentieth century ultimately reveal is how as soon as the
    insurrectionary spirit of Shi’ism degenerates in one case it resuscitates itself in another. As soon as the Babi movement of the middle of the century degenerated into the Baha’i religion, the Constitutional Revolution of the end of the century becomes the repository of all the hopes and aspirations that were brutally murdered with the execution of Bab in 1850. The collective spirit of protest that is in Shi’ism in its most insurrectionary moments divests its aspirations from the lofty but irrelevant and megalomaniac claims of Baha’ullah and invests them in local and anonymous figures far closer to their miseries and hopes. The Constitutional Revolution thus rises like a sphinx from the ashes
    of the Babi Movement (p.83)….Baha’ullah systematically eradicated every ounce of revolutionary energy from Babism and put it squarely at the service of the reigning monarchy and of Russian and then British colonialism. By the time that Iranians were getting ready to tear down the very foundation of Qajar monarchy in the course of the Constitutional Revolution, Baha’ullah officially sided with [Nasiruddin] Shah. His son and successor Abd al-Baha went even further and was knighted by George V, and under the British mandate established the center of his vanity in Haifa…(p.83)”

  • Steve

    “The Constitutional Revolution thus rises like a sphinx from the ashes
    of the Babi Movement (p.83)”

    Correction: Your quote is from page 80.

  • Wahid Azal

    Yes, p.80. It was a typo. And your point is, what…???

  • Steve

    You’re welcome.

  • Mahmoudbanairabbani

    AllahuAbha,

    Dear bahai scholars and friends

    Muhammadan rasullullah PBUH enjoined (what a beautiful bahai word) the muhammadan males to shave there, and not the ladies.

    I have 2 important questions, please help:

    1-why not ladies?
    2-what his successor (Bahaullah, Arvahana le vahdatahulfada) orderd?

    Even if you do NOT have the quotation is OK for me, just wanted to know if bahai males are shaved; I don´t care about the law for females

    thanks and best regards

    This is a real question please help

    AllahuAba

  • Wahid Azal

    Dear Mahmoud,

    I am not a Bahai, but on what hadith do you base your assertion that Muhammad (pbuh) enjoined the shaving of [presumably 'pubic'] hair for men and not women? There are hadith quoted in texts of Shi’ite fiqh that actually prescribe such shaving for both sexes, and not just men. Besides the issue of ritual purity (tahara) and basic hygiene, other reasons adduced are various from one faqih and mufassir to the next, but one theological reason given by certain theologian-jurisprudents is that excess hair [in the pubic parts] attracts malefic jinn (elemental spirits) who inspire excessive lust (shahwa).

    Allahu Akbar!

  • novizio

    July 15, 2011january 2012 no news good news