Nicholas,

The whole idea of "divine revelation" is a pure "middle man" SCAM that has only been perpetuated for reasons of "political expediency".

Judeo-Christian-Islamic culture, including bahai, simply seeks to turn the masses of people into "slaves of god" to be manipulated by elites whose egos are inflated far beyond any natural talent they might have in the areas of spirituality or enlightenment (much less government).

The impulse toward transcendence, the human yearning for meaning and belonging, love, compassion, beauty, truth, and the good, existed long before religion was "invented" by the so called "prophets".

Religion was simply a way to control people by scaring them into thinking that if they didn't allow priests to control irrigation canals in ancient times that some thundering sky god(s) would "zap" the "sinners" (non-conformists).

(Religion "appropriated" transcendence for economic, political and military reasons.)

Homosexuality amongst the "slaves of god" (the masses) was prohibited by the (wealthy) priestly elites (who themselves gladly paid for homo-sex) precisely because it was seen as a "competing" belief system based on "sex mystique". Same reason for (stupidly) "banning" worship of the "divine feminine".

The world is sick and tired of the kind of dreary stuff that bahai tradition tries to keep alive.

bahai will never be able to deliver on the promise of being a movement of spiritual transformation and healing if it doesn't THROW OUT THIS KIND OF JUNK in bahai scripture.

all of the resulting lies and deception doom bahai to be an irrelevant, dysfunctional attempt at building a "better bureaucratic mousetrap". mindless. heartless.

bye, bye!

–
http://www.bhavanasociety.org//main/quotes_full_p...

"There is, monks, an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned. If, monks, there were no unborn… no escape would be discerned from what is born, become, made, conditioned. But because there is an unborn…, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, become, made, conditioned.”
~ The Buddha
Ud 8:3

Translator: Bhikkhu Bodhi
Udana 8:3

New discoveries or cultural perceptions will not be problematic for Baha'is. On the contrary, as the Baha'i Faith expands and becomes a state religion in country after country, the position of people around the world will change. Methods, whether psychological or medical will be devised so that homosexuality, among many other disorders, can be finally eradicated.

Those that believe that homosexuality will ever be welcomed into the Baha'i community, or that the infallible House of Justice will change its position, are fooling themselves. They are choosing their own passions over the revelations of God. Religious morality will always be conservative. To think that the House can give up Shoghi Effendi's interpretations is foolish. Whether or not members of the House are "open-minded", the House is inspired by Baha'u'llah, not by the inclinations of its members. Whoever the members of the House are, it would make the same decision. The law against homosexuality will never change, not in this Revelation, not in any Revelation throughout all time.

Anyway, if you want some fun reading, please click on the following. BUT WARNING, if you don’t like profane words and straight (no pun intended) talk, then don’t click on this link. Its from a funny columnist Dan Savage:
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2009/01/28/ted_haggard_puts_his_penis_in

I wanted to draw your attention to this important petition that I recently signed:

“Expand the Civil Rights Act to Protect LGBT Rights”
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/LGBTCivilRightsAct?e

I really think this is an important cause, and I’d like to encourage you to add your signature, too. It’s free and takes less than a minute of your time.

Thanks!

You wrote:
[quote comment="61520"]I think you’re presenting a false dichotomy. In law there is a good categorization that has been put in place to address this issue; on the one-hand we have laws or documents that are “self-executing”; in other, words, they are directly applicable, effective immediately and no ancillary legislation is necessary. On the other hand, we have those which are “executory”. These documents or laws are intended to go into effect or having the potential of becoming effective at a future time. They are therefore contingent. For example, in the Swiss Constitution, article 2, it is stated that “The Swiss Confederation shall protect the liberty and rights of the people and safeguard the independence and security of the country.” This is executory, as it has no application clause. These are mostly general and abstract norms. But does it constitute legislation? Yes.[/quote]

You’ve talked a lot about self-executing constitutional provisions, but failed to link what you’ve said to any alleged false dichotomy on my part. Explanation please.

Also, the self-executing “laws or documents” you’re referring to – the ones that can be given effect without the aid of legislation – are perhaps better described as constitutional provisions rather than legislation. Typically, they’re treaties, constitutions and the like.

Your pairing of “self-executing” and “executory” is unusual to say the least. If anything is a false dichotomy, that is. But perhaps you have an explanatory document you can refer me to.

The distinction between self-executing and non-self-executing (my preferred terms) is important, though, because the House is not an executive body.

“…the House of Justice, whether National or Universal, has only legislative power and not executive power….”
(From words of Abdu’l-Baha in: Star of the West, Vol. VII, No. 15, pp. 138-139)
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 315)

When it does execute, one can assume that it’s carrying out out a function in its capacity as head of the Faith — handling an appeal for example.

“This, the House of Justice, will be not only a body for the legislation of laws according to the spirit and requirement of the time, but a board of arbitration for the settlement of all disputes arising between peoples”
(Multiple Authors: Lights of Guidance, Page: 315)

“By this House is meant the Universal House of Justice, that is, in all countries a secondary House of Justice must be instituted, and these secondary Houses of Justice must elect the members of the Universal one. Unto this body all things must be referred. It enacteth all ordinances and regulations that are not to be found in the explicit Holy Text. By this body all the difficult problems are to be resolved [Guardian stuff snipped]. This House of Justice enacteth the laws and the government enforceth them. The legislative body must reinforce the executive, the executive must aid and assist the legislative body so that through the close union and harmony of these two forces, the foundation of fairness and justice may become firm and strong, that all the regions of the world may become even as Paradise itself.”
(`Abdu’l-Baha: Will and Testament, Pages: 14-15)

[quote comment="61520"]So, when the House “[...]define[s] at this time the standards for Baha’i families[...]“, they ARE legislating. They’re just doing so through executory legislation.[/quote]

Let’s not put the cart before the horse with this example. Let’s wait until Farhan has done as I’ve requested and gives some examples of the…

“rulings of the UHJ” that “define at this time the standards for Baha’i families that are binding on those who wish to be fully active in the Baha’i community”

…so we know what he’s referring to.

ka kite
Steve