A recent research report out of Stockholm shows that the structure and function of homosexual brains is similar to that of the opposite sex. That is, a homosexual man’s brain is similar to that of a heterosexual woman’s brain. The study’s sample size was only 90 persons: 25 heterosexual women (HeW), 25 heterosexual men (HeM), 20 homosexual men (HoM), and 20 homosexual women (HoW).
Previous research had shown that men and women’s brains were “wired” differently. This research showed that there was a similar difference between sexual orientation. So finally we have scientific proof that women love to go shopping with their gay male friends.
Using PET and MRI scans which measured blood flow the study showed:
- The brains of heterosexual men (HeM) and homosexual women (HoW) were similar in that the volumes of their two brain hemispheres were not symmetrical (rightward cerebral asymmetry).
- The brains of homosexual men (HoM) and heterosexual women (HeW) were similar in that the volumes of their two brain hemispheres were symmetrical.
- There were also opposite sex similarities between the gay and heterosexual participants in the way their amygdalae connected.
The authors of the study conclude: “The results cannot be primarily ascribed to learned effects, and they suggest a linkage to neurobiological entities”. You can read the report here. The next step is to find what exactly accounts for the difference and by what mechanism it is activated.
More and more science is taking baby steps towards an explanation of homosexuality that is anchored in biological rather than behavioral basis. That is, it may eventually offer conclusive proof that homosexuality arises from human genetic makeup. Some scientists are persuaded already by the present findings of this and other research but not all.
We are certainly not there yet but the trend from recent research reports points that way. If this is indeed realized at some time in the future, then I believe it will present the Baha’is with a severe challenge because most believe that homosexuality is an aberration from the “natural” and that, more importantly, it is a “spiritual affliction” which can be overcome by expressing a moral choice and through conscious effort (such as prayer).
Such views would become anachronistic if homosexuality is shown to be a genetic substrate wholly outside a person’s volition and choice.
Here is a thought provoking essay on “Sex and Values” from the late R. Jackson Armstrong-Ingram.
Baquia, I think you have twisted the Baha’i view of homosexuality here.
There is a clear discussion about the causes of homosexuality and the physical and genetic roots of it. Although not comprehensive it does touch on several subjects.
Our appetites and inclinations are strongly influenced by the condition of our physical makeup, and our bodies are in varying degrees of health, depending upon factors such as heredity, environment, nourishment and our own treatment of them. Genetic variations occur, producing conditions which can create problems for the individual. Some conditions are of an emotional or psychological nature, producing such imbalances as quickness to anger, recklessness, timorousness, and so forth; others involve purely physical characteristics, resulting not only in unusual capacities but also in handicaps or diseases of various kinds.
Whether deficiencies are inborn or are acquired, our purpose in this life is to overcome them and to train ourselves in accordance with the pattern that is revealed to us in the divine Teachings.
The view that homosexuality is a condition that is not amenable to change is to be questioned by Bahá’ís. There are, of course, many kinds and degrees of homosexuality, and overcoming extreme conditions is sure to be more difficult than overcoming others. Nevertheless, as noted earlier, the Guardian has stated that “through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap.”
Groan, here we go again. After 5 years on this blog Anon, I would have thought you would have learnt something by now.
The whole point of any religion is to subdue our physical appetites and acquire spiritual qualities. If you believe that a religion is from God then you obey the rules of that religion regardless of how painful it may be. No Baha’i would blame a homosexual for having homosexual tendencies. Nor would a Baha’i blame a non-Baha’i homosexual from following those tendencies. But to be a Baha’i means to follow the laws of the Baha’i Faith. If that means giving up sex then so be it. But even in the case of a Baha’i homosexual following his/her homosexual tendencies, a Baha’i is never judgmental. However I don’t know what action a local assembly would take in the case of public display of homosexual behavior by a Baha’i.
5 years? Try a few months…By the way Craig, if you are reading, I am almost done with my responses…Nothing special, just my views
I am tied with work and school and family…
I think I recall reading part of a letter from the UHJ that admits the possibility of homosexual tendencies being biological, rather than environmental, but the stance of the Faith would still be the same regardless of what science finds. The thing is, even if the Faith recognizes that homosexuality could be the product of biology rather than environment, that is still a huge leap forward from the past 3,000 years in which religious institutions, almost unquestionably stated that it was simply a ‘perversion.’ The Faith won’t change its position, and it can’t be expected to, honestly. But just by accepting that homosexual tendencies could be ‘natural’ is a big step forward in religious history.
It could certainly remove the stigma gay people have as a targeted group, and all people with natural inclinations would be thrown in together. It could also be kept in mind that Shoghi Effendi wrote these letters in the 1930’s and 40’s. That doesn’t ‘excuse’ his tones at times, but it could explain it somewhat. No man is above his era completely.
I’m not ‘defending’ the Baha’i position. I still think it is an unnecessary teaching that doesn’t befit such a progressive Faith.
As generations Bahai, Persian-American and GAY, I thought I’d be dying to make a comment here. But you know what? Why bother? The UHJ and the typical conservative Bahais that post here are entrenched in their views. So nothing I say will make any difference. Keep thinking that I’m just not praying/trying hard enough. Keep throwing quotes from Shoghi Effendi at me. Blah blah blah. We’ve heard it all before. In the meantime, gays (and more importantly those who sympathize for justice) will continue to find a home outside of the Bahai community. We will build life affirming relationships that are spiritual and lead to families. We will fight for the right to adopt and have our own children- you will see us with our kids at PTA meetings, daycare centers, parks, churches and God-willing Bahai Feasts one day….
I’ve often wondered to myself, what would happen if a same sex couple with kids approached an LSA and signed their declaration cards to officially join the Baha’i Faith? would their enrollment be accepted? would they be asked to divorce? what policy would the AO follow? has this happened already? anyone know? I’m simply curious.
Hi Baquia. It really depends on the lcoal community. If a community is centered on the mystical/spiritual side of the Faith- then more than likely they would care less and welcome the couple fully. I’ve heard of very few instances of this (of course it was from people online so I can’t verify if true or not). But the majority of communities emphasize so much administration and rules- that more than likely they will make the couple so uncomfortable that they would leave on their own accord. As far as the UHJ, I don’t know what their official policy is. Maybe someone should ask. I’d venture to guess that they will pull out Shoghi Effendi quotes saying homosexuals are welcome but they have to overcome their homosexuality and that the family is centered around a man/woman. Which to me means- yeah they have to get a divorce and maybe even give up their kids. Don’t know.
I find this discussion fascinating. I remember 2 gay Baha’is in our community, both male. Both into the arts and very cool people. I think they were partners or something…I was a kid at the time and I didn’t pay attention too much. But now I reflect and look back I remember how our community was and there was no real tension or whispering going on. I think they just ignored it and focused on being part of the community. I remember going to firesides or feast at their place. I think the Assembly made it known once and then left it up to them. I dont think any of this would be an issue if there was just a realization that as long as its not so obvious, just like heterosexual couples getting all smoochy in front of people, people live and let live. Leave the rest to God. Unfortunately, both of them later died of AIDS.
Wow anon. I finally agree with you! well somewhat…
The problem to me is this is NOT the scenario I’m talking about- don’t ask don’t tell. Just a few decades ago, this is the best you could hope for in the Bahai community- and yes a lot of that was going on. But it’s a new generation. Will the Bahai community accept me when I walk in with my “partner” who I introduce as my partner- or maybe even husband? (some gays are starting to use that word; although I don’t care for it myself). I don’t think the majority of Bahai communities are ready for this. If you are closeted or just live under the radar, then you’ve always been accepted in the Bahai community. That’s just not gonna cut it anymore.
This morning I heard on interesting podcast on what I understand to be a Swedish study on divergence between congenital twins. It seems that the causes of homosexual orientation are not, well, homogeneous:
6/29/2008
New study sheds light on genetic vs environmental contributions to sexuality.
http://www.theskepticsguide.org/5×5/index.asp
P, I don’t think the guidelines will change, but only the implementation by the LSA and communities. All of this really makes me want to read more into it. I’m convinced its chemical or genetic ergo subject to scientific influence. But, at the same time I have know and read about environmentally and conscious decisions to become gay or take part in that behavior. That is rather strange to me. If someone is wired that way from the womb, then thats a different story. But, when someone is consciously choosing, although they have the right to, I don’t believe its moral or what God intended.
Anon, you can answer your own questions. When were you wired to be with a woman (if you are straight)? Why don’t we spend scientific dollars to figure that out? Homosexuality exists among anmials- it is not uncommon. In fact it’s very natural.
99% of gay men I know knew from the very start that they wanted to be with men. But because of society’s pressures (which includes religion) they push it back down until they finally have to come to terms with it. Yes there are some very sexual people that are open to many expierences, and there are a very few that actually have attraction to both sexes, but they are not the norm. The majority of gay men and women I know really want the same things that others do- the stability of a relationship. Unfortunately we have to figure out how to do this ourselves because we certanly don’t get any support from the majority of religions we were brought up. When you are told that it doesn’t really matter if you have one life partner that you are committed to or a different sexual partner every week- that it’s all immoral… well it doesn’t help gays build healthy relationships. I wonder if those two gentlemen in your community who died of AIDS, if they had been in a supportive community where they could openly serve, where their relationship would have been honored and they would have been encouraged to raise kids- I just wonder would the outcome have been different? Maybe they still would be with us today…
I don’t know about those two, But I do remember some very good times.
But about homosexuality being natural I would like to make a point. being natural in a sense it does happen, yes. There are documented cases of it happening in many species but if we are to rely on the assumption that the purpose of a species is to reproduce and have progeny, then it is a disadvantage in nature, biologically speaking because, naturally, they cannot not reproduce by themselves. Moreover, if we also acknowledge that mutation or disorders are also natural, that does not infer that they are natural in a sense that it is a normal or natural behavior, only that it happens. At this point I just would like to say I imagine that this may seem very insensitive or offensive and I apologize in advance, but I think the discussion is worth having so people can lift some of thier hurtful views. I have a ton of gay friends and co-workers and I have noticed my gay friends have always been different in a cooler way.
In any case, homosexuality along with heterosexuality are simply behaviors we share with other species as part of our evolutionary culmination as a species. This has been a purely scientific discussion so far, but it does change significantly when we change gears into a spiritual discussion.
I have no doubt that sincere love is felt between two individuals. No one doubts that. But if we detract the relationship with others, and focus on our relationship with God, there is the World that must be removed as the only obstacle from reunion with Him. Nothing but complete self annihilation on the part of the soul, meaning that it must be as pure as crystal water and free from every Earthly attachment and inclination. Nearly impossible in this World, but it is something that we have been exhorted to do by Baha’u'llah Himself.
Moreover, the whole concept of sex is also downplayed, and the only place where Baha’u'llah talks about sex and marriage is where he says we are to “bring forth servants”. Now, of course this begs the question, why don’t gay couples adopt children and raise them as Baha’is? Isnt there a big reward in that–adoption and raising them a Baha’i? It is a very interesting question. In the big picture, homosexuality is categorized not as the terrible sins like “backbitting” or others…it is a condition that must be dealt with. With all of the other no no’s out there, I think there has been too much attention to the subject.
then it is a disadvantage in nature, biologically speaking
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not really. In nature many times what happens is that it is the younger/weaker male that ends up with another young male because they can not get the female. This allows the stronger male to breed with the females. Also the act among the younger males upon each other may be teaching them to eventually mount the female.
NOW all this is extremely funny when applied to human relations. But it’s just as funny to me when I read in the Bahai writings that I’m against nature. Heterosexual monogomy is against nature and it’s one of the worst ways to ensure that the species multiplies in nature.
But back to the topic of homosexuality and sprituality. You said “but complete self annihilation on the part of the soul” is what we are put on earth for. I agree to some extent. I just don’t see how love expressed sexually is hurtful spiritually when two people are committed to each other and wish to raise a family. If what you say is true, then there is no need for Bahai marriage. Why are straight people allowed to express something as banal as sexual pleasure? It is no longer needed for procreation. A man and a woman can bring a child to this world without having sex. I also remember reading in youth classes a letter from a Abdul-Baha explaining to a Bahai woman that she needs to have relations with her husband- as this was very much a part of Bahai marriage. I don’t think sex is downplayed at all when Shoghi Effendi extols Bahai youth to marry while young and in possesion of their youtfhul vigor. What do you think he was talking about? Except when it comes to gays/lesbian Bahai youth, we are told how wonderful and spiritual enhancing celibacy can be. Sorry, but even Bahaullah didn’t have very kind words about celibacy- read his tablet to the monks.
And finally you asked: “Now, of course this begs the question, why don’t gay couples adopt children and raise them as Baha’is?”
Hey, I’d love to. Be kind enough to write the Universal House of Justice and see if it’s cool with them. :o)
P, you don’t need permission anymore than a straight couple does in order to adopt
But I guess you know that.
I agree the time has past for the “don’t ask, don’t tell” stage and that Bahai communities need to be more welcoming of diversity. For me it is not an issue whether it’s nature or nurture, but an issue of equality. Though -if- the research B mentioned ends up being solid (the samples are v. small) that would help force Bahais to address how they go about welcoming gay couples as equals.
and on a completely unrelated note:
For my study on engagement in mixed reality art projects, I’ve made a questionnaire to test a hypothesis. I need many many many responses.
So if you have a few minutes, go to: http://www.sonjavank.com/faces
thanks!
Sonja I took your survey. I saw Mishkin Qalam in there…very cool. His grandson was in my community. He recently passed away but left a lot of the calligraphy his grandfather to the Faith.
In any case, about the homosexuality. There will be more and more evidence and testing to come showing that the most dominant form of it, where the individual has no control over their attraction to the opposite sex, is in fact a physiological trait reinforced by psychological factors and environment. I am sure too that there will eventually be some trail blazing idealist who funds the research to cure homosexuality. I really do not want to offend people but lets use our brains for a moment. Lets examine the different degrees of the issue.
1. Transexuality is a physical manifestation of the wrongly wired physiology. We have people sometimes born with part of or even both organs sometimes. However, they define themselves as one gender or another.
2. Severe gender identity crisis applies to people who simply can’t tolerate living in the body they do. Extreme measure are taken to make the switch.
3. a-typical homosexual who is attracted to the same sex but is not so intolerant of there identity as that sex. It should be noted that there is a wide spectrum of people who fall under this category and by no means is it comprehensive.
4. bi-sexuals tend to be the gray area and indeed have attractions both emotional and intimate to both sexes. However, I have read that some simply choose the lifestyle for various preferential reasons. So it would appear that there is a gray area as well.
5. Heterosexuals…
Hormone treatment and surgery have all been used to date to alleviate the problems these people have to deal with. It would be naive to think that there are individuals who suffer from a great deal of pain as a result of their condition. It would also be naive to think that they wish they were not born that way. At this point I think it prudent to say that we all should be compassionate and understanding, informed and aware of the issues. No one should contribute to the pain or problem of another. On a personal note, my own reason for discussing this subject is to understand it better. I see some Baha’is who, according to their own understanding, without the knowledge of the written guidance, get really uncomfortable when you mention gay Baha’is. I see others very sympathetic. The UHJ is simply following the rules and in my opinion has really gone out of its way to ensure the validity and reality of the fact that there is indeed gay Baha’is and there is no reason why they should be treated any differently (yes i realize that the writings themselves say otherwise, but they are just applying the law).
All in all the is much still to be understood and I think science is almost there.
I re-read and I should just clarify…
It would be naive to think that there are not individuals who suffer a great deal of pain as a result of their condition. It would also be naive to think that they dont wish they were not born that way.
The UHJ is simply following the rules and in my opinion has really gone out of its way to ensure the validity and reality of the fact that there is indeed gay Baha’is and there is no reason why they should be treated any differently (yes i realize that the writings themselves say that it is a *condition*, but they are just applying the law).
I really do not want to offend people but…
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You have. You have insulted me- a gay man who’s only time of depression was when he was trying to fit into the Bahai mold (I’m very happy now believe it or not). You’ve insulted my transgender friend who has seen most of her friends commit suicide because of society’s inability to understand (that includes your version of the Bahai Faith). I take it you also believe Shoghi Effendi when he says that UHJ will eventually have to decide how to punish all homosexuals? That will never change in your view either, right? When the UHJ says that maybe there will be a way to “fix” a fetus so it doesn’t come out homosexual (yes they put out a scary letter like this), then you just throw your head down and obey? Whitewash it all you want Anon- YOU CAN NOT veil what you say in words of ’sensitivity’. It’s pure, hurtful bigotry. Fortunately I know enough Bahais that don’t think like you. Some day the UHJ will change the enforcement of this law and hopefully gays will be truly welcome into the Bahai community. Until then we see your words for what they are- insulting and hurtful.
Does anyone else see Anon’s words (and similar words by other conservative Bahais) very similar to the antiquated pyschiatry of the turn of the century? you know where women were given lobotomies to keep them from being too ’sexual’ (that was a disease too back then). Or were left handed kids were forced to use their right hands? It really is scary to me that Bahais like him share such views with souther baptists, shiite musmilms and other groups that wish to get rid of homosexuality.
Some day the UHJ will change the enforcement of this law and hopefully gays will be truly welcome into the Bahai community.
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And by the way, I do believe it is a law. Not from Bahaullah, but from Shoghi Effendi’s interpretation. As long as the UHJ wants to follow SE’s interpretations as law, then all we can hope for is loose enforcement of it. But I also pray for the day when the UHJ will wake up and realize it doesn’t have to follow every letter, phrase and utterance that SE made. I wish we had a real direct vote for the UHJ so that maybe, just maybe more open-minded men would get elected. Unfortunately, there is no true democracy. Everyone knows that the future members are hand-picked from the Teaching Centers by the incumbents- and the NSA’s just follow along in electing them. So we’ll just end up with the same ol’ same ol’ for the UHJ probably for a while unless the change the system.
P,
I apologize again if I offended you but at least I am trying to understand the issues. You can’t deny that there is a physiological foundation for homosexuality. The science is showing that. In my view this is a big leap forward in understanding the dynamic and root of it.
As their is a foundation for someone to develop straight, but we don’t try to fix that. As long as you see it as a disease that needs to be fixed (per Shoghi Effendi and the present UHJ), then anything you say is insulting. As it is insulting to a left-handed person being told he has a disease and should really try to use his right hand. Believe what you want to believe. But I feel for those kids (and some grown ups who are still in the community) beating themselves over the head because you represent the best understanding they can hope for inside the Bahai community.
Oh btw Anon, when I do have kids, yes I plan to educate them in the Bahai Faith. But it’s not what you think. It will probably be in a loving/accepting place like the Unitarian church. And for sure my children will be taught to use their own brains and ask questions- not blind Faith as I was taught. And from what I’ve seen, kids being brought up by gay parents tend to be way more understanding and accepting of ALL of humanity than even Bahai kids. So mine will probably be super kids since they’ll get the best of both worlds!
I’ve found what you’ve said to be very interesting, P. I myself am a Bahai and being a ballet dancer, I meet quite a few homosexual guys. What proof do you have that the law prohibiting homosexuality is not one of Baha’ullah but rather of Shoghi Effendi? Another question I had was are you still a registered Bahai? If so, how do you teach the faith to homosexuals? Whenever I do talk, it eventually runs into what is the Bahai position on homosexuality and well it sort of ends there.
P,
The classification of homosexuality as a disease is kind of a little off if you ask me. That’s not what I said. A disease is something else…I think homosexuality is a condition, like people with other kinds of anomalies like extremely high IQs but are anti-social, or people who are artist genius but can’t look you in the eye…Let’s face the fact, if we simply unaware organisms the homosexuals would be unable to reproduce.
Can you blame me for trying to understand it better? Its kind of tell tale to see you react so emotionally. I wan’t to have a dialog and approach it from a different angle to further my own reasoning. The way I see it, from an evolutionary standpoint and a reproductive standpoint, purely biological, it is something that would eventually be stamped out by nature as a part the darwinian model. Im sure you know, the theory is only the genes or traits that are useful or advantageous are inherited and passed on. This process takes thousands of years, if not millions.
In no way shape or form should we shun or disavow our gay Baha’is. I do not make a distinction and I even wonder about some of my friends who have never had a girl friend…They are very active in the faith too. In any case, I highly doubt UHJ will change. It is calling on us to deny our physical inclination and arise spiritually…When we do this there is always the attachments to our own systems. I have trouble answering the call myself…we all do…But I don’t think the admonishment to arise will go away or change in character.
Mooseus,
A lot of things came from Baha’u'llah that we have or have not done. Did you know that Iranian Baha’is in Iran have rules that we in the west do not. Homosexuality is derived from the Aqdas and the authority Shoghi Effendi had as interpreter has lead to the Baha’i position as it is today.
Homosexuality in the Middle East, at that time was not what you think of. Even today, the idea of uniquely defined segments of gays is not part of the culture or lingo (see Ahmadinejad). Of course it happened and does happen and many people are indeed identifying themselves as gay today. But, in those days there is strong evidence to state that was not the case. Baha’u'llah condemned the social ill of pediastry because it was the closest thing to it and those who perpetrated it, although child abusers were most often married men with families. It was not as clearly defined culturally for different reasons. But, if we compare it to other places where Baha’u'llah talks about marriage between man and women this interpretation is consistent with the subject…
This is simply my view and I know P will probably say im a fundamentalist or something…
One thing Anon and I will end the conversation with you. When the Bahai Faith asks straights to NEVER have sex (you don’t need sex to procreate anymore), then at least I can say that the Faith is fair in how treats all its members. Otherwise, it’s discrimination. And it is considered a disability (maybe that’s the word I should have used, but it’s all the same to me); if you believe Shoghi Effendi, then I am handicapped with a disability. I find this pity utterly insulting, especially when I see people with true disabilities living in this world.
What proof do you have that the law prohibiting homosexuality is not one of Baha’ullah but rather of Shoghi Effendi?
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Bahaullah condemned sex with a slave boy. And in another instance he forbade sodomy (which could be for men or women if we are striclty speaking of anal sex). However, there is great discussion on what exactly sodomy (and the story of sodom) means. So how do I explain the Faith to gay friends, just like I would explain any judeo-christian religion. There is a spiritual side to the Faith and a cultural side based on laws that were revealed in a certain social setting. To only accept the laws at face value without understanding the social norms in which He brought those laws is a true diservice to the Bahai Faith (we were not meant to be a religion of fundamentalism).
My personal take is that the Universal House of Justice (if we were one day able to actually have a true voice in electing those 9 men) can move away from Shoghi Effendi’s interpretation which condemns all forms of homosexuality (even kissing I would guess), but still remain loyal to Bahaullah’s law in the social context in which he revealed them. Also, since the idea of gay marriage is not spoken of in the Aqdas, then the UHJ could very well legislate some type of union allowed between gay Bahais. It’s all doable, but it depends on the leadership.
And oh yes Mooseus, I am registered generations Bahai. But haven’t been active in years. I go to the Unitarian church every so often, where I can profess my Bahai beliefs without any judgement. Maybe the Bahai community will change in my life time, so I’ll feel comfortable enough to return. But I’m not holding my breath.
So yep, I’m still a carded member; hmmm, although, I have no idea where my card is….
P,
I really think you are being too touchy.
You havn’t said much regarding my scientific approach, I admit I am a little dense regarding this issue, thats why I am trying to talk about it.
As I think you are being fundamentalist. You want to eradicate homosexuality with the use of science one day in the future. Yeah, I guess that makes me a bit ‘touchy’. Did u look up that letter from the UHJ talking about the possiblity of altering a fetus so it comes out straight, instead of just empahtically saying that would be wrong. Of course, maybe it’s not wrong in your eyes? Yeah, I’m very touchy when I confront evil…
If you want it all to be fair, then stop having sex EVER. Are you married, have a spouse? If so, don’t EVER introduce them as your spouse, actually hide them and pretend they are just a friend. Live in seperate homes too, please.
I wnat to stop writing to you, but geez I’m so hopeful that you will wake up one day. We need more progressive minded Bahais in the community for any change to happen.
For anyone who is interested. Here is the letter from the UHJ regarding the possibility of “treating” a fetus for the disability of homosexuality: http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?file=uhj_homosexuality_biology&language=All
P, said it all, but I’ve already stated this a number of times on Bahai Rants, that thousands of letters written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi by numerous (it would be interesting if some one could find who these were and for which periods) secretaries is not the same as something that is penned by Shoghi Effendi. Especially when you consider how articulate and how excellent his English was.
He didn’t write a single word on the topic of sexuality, as far as I know.
So I’d go a step further than P, and say that it would (I’ve love to say “will”, but I try as I might, I can’t see into the future) be great when the people (including Bahai Institutions) stop treating these letters as if they were scripture. They are not.
P, I was born left-handed and was slapped with a ruler for a number of years. Then when I was around 8 or so, the nuns must have either decided that a left-handed child was better than one who couldn’t write or perhaps they convinced my parents it was better to allow me to follow my ‘nature’. Anyway all I know is that once I moved into the middle classroom I didn’t have to hide my lefthand, and I then started to write. If I’d been born with homosexual tendencies with the severity that I am left-handed, I’m not sure how I would handle being a Bahai. Other kids switched over to the other hand, I just couldn’t. I even play instruments left-handed.
It is all very easy for a right-handed person to say, ah but it is not such a big deal, I mean I can do a lot of things with my right hand that a right-handed person can’t. Some people think I’m ambidextrous because I draw with both hands or use the mouse with either, but deep down, I am -lefthanded-. And though life is harder that way, that’s who I am and I shouldn’t have to hide this. Shouldn’t have to apologize, nor pretend to be right-handed.
When you are in majority in a situation it is easy to overlook things. And easy to see things as right or wrong. Or that is it just an issue of a bit of abstainance. When in fact nature is so diverse. So I understand how a right-handed person might say, but you can abstain from using your left hand. See you are coping, and that’s not inequality. Not noticing that inside I’m hurting on hearing those words ((again) with oodles of good intention). Perhaps they’d even call me touchy.
My question is what is the harm? What is wrong with being gay?
How is being gay, in some way immoral? Any more or less moral than a heterosexual I mean. Please don’t get me started on trans-gender identity. Sexuality is like the nature of colour. We see divisions but there are none, just varying intensities of where we feel most comfortable. I have yet to meet a gay parent who was abusive (I am sure there are plenty around (gays being human and all that). I’ve met many abusive straight parents
Anyway, Anonnymouz I found your posting offensive, not just to gays but to myself as a Bahai. I DO NOT share your views but I also found it odd that you thought what you wrote was scientific. But don’t worry, the future will make things clearer for us all
and on the unrelated note: There were more Bahai faces inserted into that questionnaire, but the point of it was about ‘how we judge / look at faces’.
In September I can say more about this if anyone asks. Then my paper will be written.
And nice to hear about Mishkin Qalam, if there’s ever an opportunity to share some of that work with the world, ask the grandson to go to http://www.bahai-library.com/bafa and make contact.
It would be nice to have a page on him one day.
P the link you posted is a tricky one. I mean, yes, it is headed up as if it was a letter from the UHJ, but it is actually from the Research Department who seem to be giving advice, not making a law or statement of rule. I found the wording also odd in some places. But yes, the whole tone is very fundamentalist.
P,
WOW….That letter is truly scary. It almost sounds like Nazi eugenics or something, but couched in much ‘nicer’ terms.
If you found it offensive i’m sorry. And I don’t expect nor am I asking people to agree with me. I still would like to know more about the cause and reasons for homosexuality. I have said it before and I will say it again…I don’t discriminate and I have gay friends. Some of the nicest people I know…and the most stylish.
Anyway…Sonja your left hand analogy was not really applicable given there is no natural disadvantage to it. You may rebut with saying something like “all sorts of products and ergonomic factors hinder you” but if it wasn’t for the man-made obstacles your condition wouldn’t hinder you. They did the same thing to my mom in Iran because she was left handed. My sister and grandma too…
Homosexuality has become a cultural and political issue which is highly debated. I am avoiding that if you haven’t noticed. You dismiss my analytical approach to different degrees and spectrum of sexuality, but I still do not see the issue you raise. If you call it unscientific and illogical, back it up. I gave evidence for my statements but you didn’t. Of course I am biased and I appear insensitive. But, perhaps I should apologize more or patronize. I am not trying to convince anyone of my views, I am simply trying to get to scientific grounds of the issue. How is this fundamentalist?
Anyway…Sonja your left hand analogy was not really applicable given there is no natural disadvantage to it.
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there you go with the natural disadvantage stuff. What’s the natural advantage of monogomy? It certainly isn’t practiced by most animals. If the Bahai Faith truly cared about the propagation of species (if that is what you are so worried about), then polygamy is the way to go. Make sure women stay pregnant as much as possible and stay home to take care of the millions of kids; while men bring home the food. THAT is the natural way. We are spiritual beings and I know for a fact that gay couples are raising beatiful families that would put some Bahai families I have seen to shame. Conservative Bahais have nothing to stand on when arguing against this discramanatory law except “because Shoghi Effendi said so”.
And thank you Sonja for understanding. AND really thank you for continuing to be a card-carrying Bahai- that’s what we need more of. I checked out the survey, but there was no category for HOT for Angelina. Oh no, are you turing me straight? Hey maybe that’s the magic pill the UHJ is looking for- pics of Angelina Jolie shown over and over again to a fetus before it’s born!
P you are assuming that I am approaching this from a Baha’i view. Not really, I am from a scientific approach…perhaps I should look elsewhere for another point of view.
Sonja: your observations and reflections embody the very essence of the Spirit of Baha. Your heartfelt sentiments convey the expression of authentic Baha’i principles of gender equality and the elimination of prejudice. There can be no better example of the ideals upon which the Baha’i Faith was founded. All else is rust and deformity and merits no further comment let alone refutation. Good luck with your paper and may God bless you in all your future endeavors. You are a true Baha’i.
“Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man’s sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true. Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice. Justice at its best is love correcting everything that stands against love.” (Martin Luther King Jr.)
I have heard that there really IS an as yet un-translated tablet on this method. This IS the magic pill and WILL be FULLY documented in the future. The effectiveness of the method will be as “plain as the Noon Day Sun”. It is TOTALLY scientific and will be fully proven in double blind studies. Only the photos are of Jennifer Aniston NOT Angelina! The official name is “The Tablet of What Was Brad Thinking?”
http://www.jenaniston.net/gallery/
Early research shows that looking at these photos causes ACTUAL CHANGES in the brain functioning of fetuses!
http://www.jenaniston.net/gallery/
Unfortunately this effect won’t last long in turning every man on Earth straight.
There is ANOTHER tablet called “The Tablet of Pulling the Plug” where the UHJ will announce that no one on Earth is allowed to have sex EVER AGAIN. No exceptions. No appeal. No due process. Period. Neither heterosexual sex nor homosexual sex. Anyone who violates this will lose their voting rights. Because the Creator of Mankind has said in this revealed Tablet that based upon our behavior as human beings He/She/It is calling the entire human experiment off. We are no longer permitted to procreate. No sex ever. Period. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. The Creator says in explicit language that the human experiment failed and had major problems and has been terminated.
It seems the entire world was completely straight for EXACTLY 24 hours until the other Tablet was announced. And then it was all over.
No. Humans. Permitted. Ever. Again. Period.
Within 90 years of the UHJ’s implementation of the Tablet we were COMPLETELY GONE as a species.
Cats took over the planet as the highest life form. They really were from another Universe ALL ALONG (as many suspected) and were sent here as spies. The reports on us were not good. And we were terminated as a life form.
Craig that was really funny and I am going to drop the homosexual subject for now because it appears to be causing too much pain.
Hmmm…whats news…Israel and Iran may be going to war soon…ergo WWIII.
Could it happen? Nah…too political, Obama is a shoe in and he is going to cool things off, im sure.
In Persian “oo ba ma’eh” means “hes with us”