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	<title>Comments on: The Challenge of Homosexuality &#8211; Part Deux</title>
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		<title>By: Baquia</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-68630</link>
		<dc:creator>Baquia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 06:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-68630</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the summary Amado.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If I may add a new observation. Recently I&#039;ve noticed a trend that I didn&#039;t before (or perhaps it was there but I didn&#039;t pay attention to it). Whenever I or those that I&#039;m with teach a seeker, they invariably do two things: 1. ask about the &#039;official&#039; stance on homosexuality. and 2. become repelled when they are told the &#039;official&#039; Baha&#039;i line of non-acceptance of homosexuality (that is, the act or marriage isn&#039;t acceptable but the person isn&#039;t condemned).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As society continues to evolve and move beyond this issue (it has almost become as accepted as the racial issue) then the Baha&#039;i Faith is presented with a rather thorny challenge. Those that are now joining without discovering this issue will face a serious test of Faith. And those that do ask and discover it, will reject the message and not join. At least that has been my personal experience with seekers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the summary Amado.</p>
<p>If I may add a new observation. Recently I&#39;ve noticed a trend that I didn&#39;t before (or perhaps it was there but I didn&#39;t pay attention to it). Whenever I or those that I&#39;m with teach a seeker, they invariably do two things: 1. ask about the &#39;official&#39; stance on homosexuality. and 2. become repelled when they are told the &#39;official&#39; Baha&#39;i line of non-acceptance of homosexuality (that is, the act or marriage isn&#39;t acceptable but the person isn&#39;t condemned).</p>
<p>As society continues to evolve and move beyond this issue (it has almost become as accepted as the racial issue) then the Baha&#39;i Faith is presented with a rather thorny challenge. Those that are now joining without discovering this issue will face a serious test of Faith. And those that do ask and discover it, will reject the message and not join. At least that has been my personal experience with seekers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pey</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-68629</link>
		<dc:creator>pey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 06:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-68629</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a very balanced view Amado, but unfortunately it means we just wait while the Bahai Faith continues to remain backward (at least in Western societies). Gay couples will continue to get married adn raise beautiful kids while the Bahai authorities continue to group them with the pedophiles that Bahaullah spoke of. But the bottom line is that there is NO law against homosexuality. Show me? I don&#039;t want letters written by secretaries. I don&#039;t even want a letter written by Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer- those are NOT laws. Bahaullah did not specifically speak about gay marriage anywhere in His Writings. Therefore it is something outside the Book which the UHJ can one day legislate on. They should step up and just say we have made a law against gay unions. Then everyone can go on their merry way. But they haven&#039;t to my  knowledge. All they do is get more secretaries to point to more secretaries. So for now, I truly believe that a local community can accept a gay couple with their kids with full rights into the Bahai community (well that is unless the pesky NSA gets in the way and takes away rights). There is no law against gay unions. The most you can say is that there is a law against sodomy and even that can be interpreted to what Bahaullah meant. But IF Bahaullah actually meant anal sex. Well then, I suggest that the NSA only remove rights when they have an actual picture of anyone (male or female) engaging in anal sex. Otherwise, stay out of people&#039;s bedrooms. To deny two men who have entered a union and are raising a family the rights of being a Bahai is pure discrimination and the world should know abou it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#39;s a very balanced view Amado, but unfortunately it means we just wait while the Bahai Faith continues to remain backward (at least in Western societies). Gay couples will continue to get married adn raise beautiful kids while the Bahai authorities continue to group them with the pedophiles that Bahaullah spoke of. But the bottom line is that there is NO law against homosexuality. Show me? I don&#39;t want letters written by secretaries. I don&#39;t even want a letter written by Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer- those are NOT laws. Bahaullah did not specifically speak about gay marriage anywhere in His Writings. Therefore it is something outside the Book which the UHJ can one day legislate on. They should step up and just say we have made a law against gay unions. Then everyone can go on their merry way. But they haven&#39;t to my  knowledge. All they do is get more secretaries to point to more secretaries. So for now, I truly believe that a local community can accept a gay couple with their kids with full rights into the Bahai community (well that is unless the pesky NSA gets in the way and takes away rights). There is no law against gay unions. The most you can say is that there is a law against sodomy and even that can be interpreted to what Bahaullah meant. But IF Bahaullah actually meant anal sex. Well then, I suggest that the NSA only remove rights when they have an actual picture of anyone (male or female) engaging in anal sex. Otherwise, stay out of people&#39;s bedrooms. To deny two men who have entered a union and are raising a family the rights of being a Bahai is pure discrimination and the world should know abou it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: AmadodeDios</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-68628</link>
		<dc:creator>AmadodeDios</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 05:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-68628</guid>
		<description>If I may crave everyone&#039;s indulgence, now that most or all of the back-and-forth seems to have subsided, I would like to try to pull this together into a summary, perhaps going stepwise from what we all agree to where the contention lies.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(First of all, many societies have taboos about different forms of sexual expression, and those of us raised in any culture anywhere are imbued with all of that.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This means that, when Bahá’u’lláh says “boys” we need scholars’ help, and we find that the connotation is pederasty. By the mutatis mutandis principle, this must mean all sexual abuse of minors, both girls and boys. I suspect we all agree so far. There are people who advocate free love with children, but I think most of us feel this is traumatizing for little people. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now, when Shoghi Effendi says that this really extends to forbid all same-sex relations, this is where we branch off. I think most of us recognize that Shoghi Effendi was a genius who worked himself into an early grave for us, producing such brilliant writings, plans and gardens. So, we would like to find some “wiggle room” in the fact that so many of his zillions of letters were read and signed by him, but composed by someone else, a secretary / assistant (often Rúhíyyih-Khánum, to whom we also owe so much). However, for example, the letter in Lights of Guidance that uses the phrase “against Nature” is apparently written by the Guardian himself.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And it was one of the Guardian’s functions to interpret like that – but about all subjects, binding forever?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So, here we have to decide whether we agree. This creates a deep conflict for me, because I think it is hard for me to think of anything else that Shoghi Effendi interpreted that I don’t go along with  (except perhaps the penchant for sexist language, which is also a phenomenon of changing social realities). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the other hand, Shoghi Effendi clearly pointed out that scientific issues (including economics, medicine, etc.) would have to be straightened out scientifically.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And Science already sees these issues extremely differently than 80 to 100 years ago. (For example, “against Nature” sounds embarrassingly unscientific now…)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Next step: the House of Justice puts in its opinions, holding firmly to the above “party line”. This does not create such a crisis for me as Shoghi Effendi’s interpretation, because the House of Justice has demonstrated that its infallibility must itself be interpreted.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;‘Abdu’l-Bahá refers to the House as the “source of all good, freed of all error” but we have seen them do what Bahá’u’lláh said they would: decide one thing, and then decide otherwise. One small – hopefully not contentious – example: there have been numerous adjustments in “the institute process” (what clusters do what, which ones do intensive growth campaigns, etc.) as it has developed. If these admittedly minor changes were 100 years apart, we would say that society changed and the House changed its rules accordingly. Since they have been months apart, I think it means that we have to understand its infallibility as (1) the Master’s hyperbole (not the only such instance of His generously lofty over-statement) and (2) by no means absolute. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(As an aside, I think the House’s infallibility can be summarized as the fact that we have to abide by whatever they decide, so for all practical purposes they are right – even when they shift gears over and over – or refuse to budge when they seem to be wrong!)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So, the House of Justice could come around, at some point in the future, to being among the last religious authorities in the world to open up and become tolerant toward the X% of the human race who have different personal preferences.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don’t know how they will get around the Guardian’s express pronouncement, though. Speculating, when a vast majority of the world and the Bahá’í community have become freed of practically all our obsolete excuses to discriminate against others, this could result in even a House of Justice ruling that the Guardian’s pronouncements regarding scientific issues may be treated as opinion rather than binding interpretation.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For instance, the original electrical wiring at the World Center was installed according to Shoghi Effendi&#039;s instructions. However, no one would say that it is heretical (or unfaithful to the Covenant!) to upgrade the wiring!&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Anyway, as more and more people come to appreciate the undeniable beauties of Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, I expect this to evolve into a situation in which each Bahá’í community has lots of friends, many of whom are involved with different activities, but only some of whom are “officially” Bahá’ís. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(This is now the case already, for example, if a teenager in a Bahá’í family has not felt like declaring as a Bahá’í but still comes along with the family to Feasts, or for other family members – parents, who already have “the station of a believer” – and other friends.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I expect that, as society becomes more tolerant, even we backward Bahá’ís will learn to follow along and grow up. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And, looking further into the future, as the world becomes civilized, many things will change. For example, perhaps the promiscuity associated with both heterosexual and homosexual relations will decline. As repression vanishes, and as every family is finally a loving place, we will learn a lot about how people really are, when allowed to be.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But unless change accelerates, we early 21st-century Bahá’ís will be cheering these advances on from beyond the pale!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may crave everyone&#39;s indulgence, now that most or all of the back-and-forth seems to have subsided, I would like to try to pull this together into a summary, perhaps going stepwise from what we all agree to where the contention lies.</p>
<p>(First of all, many societies have taboos about different forms of sexual expression, and those of us raised in any culture anywhere are imbued with all of that.)</p>
<p>This means that, when Bahá’u’lláh says “boys” we need scholars’ help, and we find that the connotation is pederasty. By the mutatis mutandis principle, this must mean all sexual abuse of minors, both girls and boys. I suspect we all agree so far. There are people who advocate free love with children, but I think most of us feel this is traumatizing for little people. </p>
<p>Now, when Shoghi Effendi says that this really extends to forbid all same-sex relations, this is where we branch off. I think most of us recognize that Shoghi Effendi was a genius who worked himself into an early grave for us, producing such brilliant writings, plans and gardens. So, we would like to find some “wiggle room” in the fact that so many of his zillions of letters were read and signed by him, but composed by someone else, a secretary / assistant (often Rúhíyyih-Khánum, to whom we also owe so much). However, for example, the letter in Lights of Guidance that uses the phrase “against Nature” is apparently written by the Guardian himself.</p>
<p>And it was one of the Guardian’s functions to interpret like that – but about all subjects, binding forever?</p>
<p>So, here we have to decide whether we agree. This creates a deep conflict for me, because I think it is hard for me to think of anything else that Shoghi Effendi interpreted that I don’t go along with  (except perhaps the penchant for sexist language, which is also a phenomenon of changing social realities). </p>
<p>On the other hand, Shoghi Effendi clearly pointed out that scientific issues (including economics, medicine, etc.) would have to be straightened out scientifically.</p>
<p>And Science already sees these issues extremely differently than 80 to 100 years ago. (For example, “against Nature” sounds embarrassingly unscientific now…)</p>
<p>Next step: the House of Justice puts in its opinions, holding firmly to the above “party line”. This does not create such a crisis for me as Shoghi Effendi’s interpretation, because the House of Justice has demonstrated that its infallibility must itself be interpreted.</p>
<p>‘Abdu’l-Bahá refers to the House as the “source of all good, freed of all error” but we have seen them do what Bahá’u’lláh said they would: decide one thing, and then decide otherwise. One small – hopefully not contentious – example: there have been numerous adjustments in “the institute process” (what clusters do what, which ones do intensive growth campaigns, etc.) as it has developed. If these admittedly minor changes were 100 years apart, we would say that society changed and the House changed its rules accordingly. Since they have been months apart, I think it means that we have to understand its infallibility as (1) the Master’s hyperbole (not the only such instance of His generously lofty over-statement) and (2) by no means absolute. </p>
<p>(As an aside, I think the House’s infallibility can be summarized as the fact that we have to abide by whatever they decide, so for all practical purposes they are right – even when they shift gears over and over – or refuse to budge when they seem to be wrong!)</p>
<p>So, the House of Justice could come around, at some point in the future, to being among the last religious authorities in the world to open up and become tolerant toward the X% of the human race who have different personal preferences.</p>
<p>I don’t know how they will get around the Guardian’s express pronouncement, though. Speculating, when a vast majority of the world and the Bahá’í community have become freed of practically all our obsolete excuses to discriminate against others, this could result in even a House of Justice ruling that the Guardian’s pronouncements regarding scientific issues may be treated as opinion rather than binding interpretation.</p>
<p>For instance, the original electrical wiring at the World Center was installed according to Shoghi Effendi&#39;s instructions. However, no one would say that it is heretical (or unfaithful to the Covenant!) to upgrade the wiring!</p>
<p>Anyway, as more and more people come to appreciate the undeniable beauties of Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, I expect this to evolve into a situation in which each Bahá’í community has lots of friends, many of whom are involved with different activities, but only some of whom are “officially” Bahá’ís. </p>
<p>(This is now the case already, for example, if a teenager in a Bahá’í family has not felt like declaring as a Bahá’í but still comes along with the family to Feasts, or for other family members – parents, who already have “the station of a believer” – and other friends.)</p>
<p>I expect that, as society becomes more tolerant, even we backward Bahá’ís will learn to follow along and grow up. </p>
<p>And, looking further into the future, as the world becomes civilized, many things will change. For example, perhaps the promiscuity associated with both heterosexual and homosexual relations will decline. As repression vanishes, and as every family is finally a loving place, we will learn a lot about how people really are, when allowed to be.</p>
<p>But unless change accelerates, we early 21st-century Bahá’ís will be cheering these advances on from beyond the pale!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Baquia</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-67179</link>
		<dc:creator>Baquia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-67179</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the summary Amado.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If I may add a new observation. Recently I&#039;ve noticed a trend that I didn&#039;t before (or perhaps it was there but I didn&#039;t pay attention to it). Whenever I or those that I&#039;m with teach a seeker, they invariably do two things: 1. ask about the &#039;official&#039; stance on homosexuality. and 2. become repelled when they are told the &#039;official&#039; Baha&#039;i line of non-acceptance of homosexuality (that is, the act or marriage isn&#039;t acceptable but the person isn&#039;t condemned).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As society continues to evolve and move beyond this issue (it has almost become as accepted as the racial issue) then the Baha&#039;i Faith is presented with a rather thorny challenge. Those that re now joining without discovering this issue will face a serious test of Faith. And those that do ask and discover it, will reject the message and not join. At least that has been my personal experience with seekers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the summary Amado.</p>
<p>If I may add a new observation. Recently I&#39;ve noticed a trend that I didn&#39;t before (or perhaps it was there but I didn&#39;t pay attention to it). Whenever I or those that I&#39;m with teach a seeker, they invariably do two things: 1. ask about the &#39;official&#39; stance on homosexuality. and 2. become repelled when they are told the &#39;official&#39; Baha&#39;i line of non-acceptance of homosexuality (that is, the act or marriage isn&#39;t acceptable but the person isn&#39;t condemned).</p>
<p>As society continues to evolve and move beyond this issue (it has almost become as accepted as the racial issue) then the Baha&#39;i Faith is presented with a rather thorny challenge. Those that re now joining without discovering this issue will face a serious test of Faith. And those that do ask and discover it, will reject the message and not join. At least that has been my personal experience with seekers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pey</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-67178</link>
		<dc:creator>pey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-67178</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a very balanced view Amado, but unfortunately it means we just wait while the Bahai Faith continues to remain backward (at least in Western societies). Gay couples will continue to get married adn raise beautiful kids while the Bahai authorities continue to group them with the pedophiles that Bahaullah spoke of. But the bottom line is that there is NO law against homosexuality. Show me? I don&#039;t want letters written by secretaries. I don&#039;t even want a letter written by Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer- those are NOT laws. Bahaullah did not specifically speak about gay marriage anywhere in His Writings. Therefore it is something outside the Book which the UHJ can one day legislate on. They should step up and just say we have made a law against gay unions. Then everyone can go on their merry way. But they haven&#039;t to my  knowledge. All they do is get more secretaries to point to more secretaries. So for now, I truly believe that a local community can accept a gay couple with their kids with full rights into the Bahai community (well that is unless the pesky NSA gets in the way and takes away rights). There is no law against gay unions. The most you can say is that there is a law against sodomy and even that can be interpreted to what Bahaullah meant. But IF Bahaullah actually meant anal sex. Well then, I suggest that the NSA only remove rights when they have an actual picture of anyone (male or female) engaging in anal sex. Otherwise, stay out of people&#039;s bedrooms. To deny two men who have entered a union and are raising a family the rights of being a Bahai is pure discrimination and the world should know abou it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#39;s a very balanced view Amado, but unfortunately it means we just wait while the Bahai Faith continues to remain backward (at least in Western societies). Gay couples will continue to get married adn raise beautiful kids while the Bahai authorities continue to group them with the pedophiles that Bahaullah spoke of. But the bottom line is that there is NO law against homosexuality. Show me? I don&#39;t want letters written by secretaries. I don&#39;t even want a letter written by Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer- those are NOT laws. Bahaullah did not specifically speak about gay marriage anywhere in His Writings. Therefore it is something outside the Book which the UHJ can one day legislate on. They should step up and just say we have made a law against gay unions. Then everyone can go on their merry way. But they haven&#39;t to my  knowledge. All they do is get more secretaries to point to more secretaries. So for now, I truly believe that a local community can accept a gay couple with their kids with full rights into the Bahai community (well that is unless the pesky NSA gets in the way and takes away rights). There is no law against gay unions. The most you can say is that there is a law against sodomy and even that can be interpreted to what Bahaullah meant. But IF Bahaullah actually meant anal sex. Well then, I suggest that the NSA only remove rights when they have an actual picture of anyone (male or female) engaging in anal sex. Otherwise, stay out of people&#39;s bedrooms. To deny two men who have entered a union and are raising a family the rights of being a Bahai is pure discrimination and the world should know abou it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: AmadodeDios</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-67177</link>
		<dc:creator>AmadodeDios</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-67177</guid>
		<description>If I may crave everyone&#039;s indulgence, now that most or all of the back-and-forth seems to have subsided, I would like to try to pull this together into a summary, perhaps going stepwise from what we all agree to where the contention lies.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(First of all, many societies have taboos about different forms of sexual expression, and those of us raised in any culture anywhere are imbued with all of that.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This means that, when Bahá’u’lláh says “boys” we need scholars’ help, and we find that the connotation is pederasty. By the mutatis mutandis principle, this must mean all sexual abuse of minors, both girls and boys. I suspect we all agree so far. There are people who advocate free love with children, but I think most of us feel this is traumatizing for little people. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now, when Shoghi Effendi says that this really extends to forbid all same-sex relations, this is where we branch off. I think most of us recognize that Shoghi Effendi was a genius who worked himself into an early grave for us, producing such brilliant writings, plans and gardens. So, we would like to find some “wiggle room” in the fact that so many of his zillions of letters were read and signed by him, but composed by someone else, a secretary / assistant (often Rúhíyyih-Khánum, to whom we also owe so much). However, for example, the letter in Lights of Guidance that uses the phrase “against Nature” is apparently written by the Guardian himself.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And it was one of the Guardian’s functions to interpret like that – but about all subjects, binding forever?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So, here we have to decide whether we agree. This creates a deep conflict for me, because I think it is hard for me to think of anything else that Shoghi Effendi interpreted that I don’t go along with  (except perhaps the penchant for sexist language, which is also a phenomenon of changing social realities). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the other hand, Shoghi Effendi clearly pointed out that scientific issues (including economics, medicine, etc.) would have to be straightened out scientifically.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And Science already sees these issues extremely differently than 80 to 100 years ago. (For example, “against Nature” sounds embarrassingly unscientific now…)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Next step: the House of Justice puts in its opinions, holding firmly to the above “party line”. This does not create such a crisis for me as Shoghi Effendi’s interpretation, because the House of Justice has demonstrated that its infallibility must itself be interpreted.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;‘Abdu’l-Bahá refers to the House as the “source of all good, freed of all error” but we have seen them do what Bahá’u’lláh said they would: decide one thing, and then decide otherwise. One small – hopefully not contentious – example: there have been numerous adjustments in “the institute process” (what clusters do what, which ones do intensive growth campaigns, etc.) as it has developed. If these admittedly minor changes were 100 years apart, we would say that society changed and the House changed its rules accordingly. Since they have been months apart, I think it means that we have to understand its infallibility as (1) the Master’s hyperbole (not the only such instance of His generously lofty over-statement) and (2) by no means absolute. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(As an aside, I think the House’s infallibility can be summarized as the fact that we have to abide by whatever they decide, so for all practical purposes they are right – even when they shift gears over and over – or refuse to budge when they seem to be wrong!)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So, the House of Justice could come around, at some point in the future, to being among the last religious authorities in the world to open up and become tolerant toward the X% of the human race who have different personal preferences.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don’t know how they will get around the Guardian’s express pronouncement, though. Speculating, when a vast majority of the world and the Bahá’í community have become freed of practically all our obsolete excuses to discriminate against others, this could result in even a House of Justice ruling that the Guardian’s pronouncements regarding scientific issues may be treated as opinion rather than binding interpretation.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For instance, the original electrical wiring at the World Center was installed according to Shoghi Effendi&#039;s instructions. However, no one would say that it is heretical (or unfaithful to the Covenant!) to upgrade the wiring!&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Anyway, as more and more people come to appreciate the undeniable beauties of Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, I expect this to evolve into a situation in which each Bahá’í community has lots of friends, many of whom are involved with different activities, but only some of whom are “officially” Bahá’ís. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(This is now the case already, for example, if a teenager in a Bahá’í family has not felt like declaring as a Bahá’í but still comes along with the family to Feasts, or for other family members – parents, who already have “the station of a believer” – and other friends.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I expect that, as society becomes more tolerant, even we backward Bahá’ís will learn to follow along and grow up. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And, looking further into the future, as the world becomes civilized, many things will change. For example, perhaps the promiscuity associated with both heterosexual and homosexual relations will decline. As repression vanishes, and as every family is finally a loving place, we will learn a lot about how people really are, when allowed to be.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But unless change accelerates, we early 21st-century Bahá’ís will be cheering these advances on from beyond the pale!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may crave everyone&#39;s indulgence, now that most or all of the back-and-forth seems to have subsided, I would like to try to pull this together into a summary, perhaps going stepwise from what we all agree to where the contention lies.</p>
<p>(First of all, many societies have taboos about different forms of sexual expression, and those of us raised in any culture anywhere are imbued with all of that.)</p>
<p>This means that, when Bahá’u’lláh says “boys” we need scholars’ help, and we find that the connotation is pederasty. By the mutatis mutandis principle, this must mean all sexual abuse of minors, both girls and boys. I suspect we all agree so far. There are people who advocate free love with children, but I think most of us feel this is traumatizing for little people. </p>
<p>Now, when Shoghi Effendi says that this really extends to forbid all same-sex relations, this is where we branch off. I think most of us recognize that Shoghi Effendi was a genius who worked himself into an early grave for us, producing such brilliant writings, plans and gardens. So, we would like to find some “wiggle room” in the fact that so many of his zillions of letters were read and signed by him, but composed by someone else, a secretary / assistant (often Rúhíyyih-Khánum, to whom we also owe so much). However, for example, the letter in Lights of Guidance that uses the phrase “against Nature” is apparently written by the Guardian himself.</p>
<p>And it was one of the Guardian’s functions to interpret like that – but about all subjects, binding forever?</p>
<p>So, here we have to decide whether we agree. This creates a deep conflict for me, because I think it is hard for me to think of anything else that Shoghi Effendi interpreted that I don’t go along with  (except perhaps the penchant for sexist language, which is also a phenomenon of changing social realities). </p>
<p>On the other hand, Shoghi Effendi clearly pointed out that scientific issues (including economics, medicine, etc.) would have to be straightened out scientifically.</p>
<p>And Science already sees these issues extremely differently than 80 to 100 years ago. (For example, “against Nature” sounds embarrassingly unscientific now…)</p>
<p>Next step: the House of Justice puts in its opinions, holding firmly to the above “party line”. This does not create such a crisis for me as Shoghi Effendi’s interpretation, because the House of Justice has demonstrated that its infallibility must itself be interpreted.</p>
<p>‘Abdu’l-Bahá refers to the House as the “source of all good, freed of all error” but we have seen them do what Bahá’u’lláh said they would: decide one thing, and then decide otherwise. One small – hopefully not contentious – example: there have been numerous adjustments in “the institute process” (what clusters do what, which ones do intensive growth campaigns, etc.) as it has developed. If these admittedly minor changes were 100 years apart, we would say that society changed and the House changed its rules accordingly. Since they have been months apart, I think it means that we have to understand its infallibility as (1) the Master’s hyperbole (not the only such instance of His generously lofty over-statement) and (2) by no means absolute. </p>
<p>(As an aside, I think the House’s infallibility can be summarized as the fact that we have to abide by whatever they decide, so for all practical purposes they are right – even when they shift gears over and over – or refuse to budge when they seem to be wrong!)</p>
<p>So, the House of Justice could come around, at some point in the future, to being among the last religious authorities in the world to open up and become tolerant toward the X% of the human race who have different personal preferences.</p>
<p>I don’t know how they will get around the Guardian’s express pronouncement, though. Speculating, when a vast majority of the world and the Bahá’í community have become freed of practically all our obsolete excuses to discriminate against others, this could result in even a House of Justice ruling that the Guardian’s pronouncements regarding scientific issues may be treated as opinion rather than binding interpretation.</p>
<p>For instance, the original electrical wiring at the World Center was installed according to Shoghi Effendi&#39;s instructions. However, no one would say that it is heretical (or unfaithful to the Covenant!) to upgrade the wiring!</p>
<p>Anyway, as more and more people come to appreciate the undeniable beauties of Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, I expect this to evolve into a situation in which each Bahá’í community has lots of friends, many of whom are involved with different activities, but only some of whom are “officially” Bahá’ís. </p>
<p>(This is now the case already, for example, if a teenager in a Bahá’í family has not felt like declaring as a Bahá’í but still comes along with the family to Feasts, or for other family members – parents, who already have “the station of a believer” – and other friends.)</p>
<p>I expect that, as society becomes more tolerant, even we backward Bahá’ís will learn to follow along and grow up. </p>
<p>And, looking further into the future, as the world becomes civilized, many things will change. For example, perhaps the promiscuity associated with both heterosexual and homosexual relations will decline. As repression vanishes, and as every family is finally a loving place, we will learn a lot about how people really are, when allowed to be.</p>
<p>But unless change accelerates, we early 21st-century Bahá’ís will be cheering these advances on from beyond the pale!</p>
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		<title>By: Baquia</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-67065</link>
		<dc:creator>Baquia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 05:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-67065</guid>
		<description>fubar, afaik that&#039;s correct, however that may not be the whole story. I&#039;ll respect Daniel&#039;s privacy and allow him to elaborate if he so wishes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fubar, afaik that&#39;s correct, however that may not be the whole story. I&#39;ll respect Daniel&#39;s privacy and allow him to elaborate if he so wishes.</p>
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		<title>By: pey</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-67063</link>
		<dc:creator>pey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 04:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-67063</guid>
		<description>Actually, they yanked his rights because of his marriage and because of his &quot;statements in support of the homosexual lifestyle&quot; as being a viable choice for Bahais. So in that case, then there are a WHOLE lot of others out there who&#039;s rights need to be removed. Because I know quite a few people who believe gays and lesbians should be free to love and be open inside the Bahai community- regardless of what these 9 people think. So will the NSA be removing more people&#039;s rights? Time will tell...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, they yanked his rights because of his marriage and because of his &#8220;statements in support of the homosexual lifestyle&#8221; as being a viable choice for Bahais. So in that case, then there are a WHOLE lot of others out there who&#39;s rights need to be removed. Because I know quite a few people who believe gays and lesbians should be free to love and be open inside the Bahai community- regardless of what these 9 people think. So will the NSA be removing more people&#39;s rights? Time will tell&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: fubar</title>
		<link>http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html/comment-page-8#comment-67062</link>
		<dc:creator>fubar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 00:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bahairants.com/the-challenge-of-homosexuality-part-deux-588.html#comment-67062</guid>
		<description>Baquia,&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My understanding is that the USNSA said DCO did the following things wrong:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;1) got married to a gay partner, and&lt;br&gt;2) talked about it openly on the internet.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The correspondence from the USNSA is posted on the internet. Feel free to send me a private email if you do not yet have the URL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Baquia,</p>
<p>My understanding is that the USNSA said DCO did the following things wrong:</p>
<p>1) got married to a gay partner, and<br />2) talked about it openly on the internet.</p>
<p>The correspondence from the USNSA is posted on the internet. Feel free to send me a private email if you do not yet have the URL.</p>
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