The Covenant

I decided to write my first entry about the covenant because it is such a central issue in the Baha’i Faith (and we just had our celebration of it in November).In the Baha’i Faith there are two distinct covenants. They are called the greater covenant and the lesser covenant. The former is a general sort of agreement that God will continously send Messengers who will provide us with guidance. (Although it would appear that humanity doesn’t really keep its end of the bargain, what with the killing of practically all of the Manifestations of God throughout known history.) And the latter is a specific agreement entered into on one part by Baha’u’llah, whom the Baha’is believe is the latest such Messenger and His followers to be obedient to His laws and instructions and on the other where humanity receives in return unity and harmony.Ofcourse, as any lawyer will tell you, when you make a contract or agreement it is just a matter of time until some schmuck comes along and breaks it. And in the lingo of the Baha’is Faith, those who have not kept their part of the agreement (in other words, they haven’t been loyal) are branded “covenant breakers”.

Needless to say, the covenant that has been broken in these instances has been the lesser one. That is, a person has acted in a way which was contrary to Baha’u’llah’s teachings or instructions. I suppose those responsible for the martyrdom of previous Manifestations would be considered covenant breakers (of the greater variety). Surprisingly the stigma of breaking the lesser covenant is much greater.

It has always fascinated me to see the reaction of other Baha’is to even the words “covenant breaker”. Mention of it within a group of Baha’is will tend to lower the temperature a few degrees and sent eyes shifting about the room uncomfortably. Most Baha’is incorrectly assume that we are forbidden from reading covenant breaker material or books and some Baha’is have so totally misunderstood this whole concept that they have even developed superstitions around it; believing for example, that one will become physically ill if exposed to such text.

This isn’t all that surprising when you realize that in this Dispensation there have been bitter power struggles at each transitional period. First, the Bab’s appointment of Subhi-Azal as the leader of the Babis in His abscence; creating a long lasting friction between him and his half-brother Baha’u’llah, when the latter declared Himself as Him Whom God Shall Manifest. Then there was the appointment of Abdul’Baha in Baha’u’llah’s will as the center of His covenant and the interpreter of His words. This never sat quite well with Abdul’Baha’s younger half-brother, Muhammad Ali, who was second in order of succession. And after Abdul’Baha’s passing, there was another fallout as quite a few people, with varying motivations questioned the appointment of Shoghi Effendi as the Guardian and even in some cases, openly contested the Will and Testament of Abdu’l-Baha, which gives him that station. Finally, after the passing of the Guardian, there was another tumultous period where some minor factions where created as a result of the claim put forward by the Hand of the Cause of God, Charles Mason Remey, that he was the second Guardian. In each instance, a small group of Baha’is defected and were, as a result, named covenant breakers.

I remember one non-Baha’i friend of mine joking about this abbreviated history, saying that had the Holy Family been around at the time of today’s TV talk shows they would be getting advice from Dr. Phil.

Its important to note that in the Baha’i Faith we don’t believe in the devil or even hell. Instead of a duality, we believe there is only good in the world because it was created by God who is the embodiment of Perfection and Beauty. To us, anything which lacks such qualities, can be thought of as ‘evil’ but even then, evil as a metaphysical reality does not exist. Having said that, in the Baha’i folklore, the covenant breaker has somehow supplanted the role of the devil or evil itself. To witness a Baha’is reaction to covenant breakers is akin to witnessing the visceral reaction of a Southern Baptist to the Anti-Christ.

This lore may have its roots in the Writings, where covenant breakers are referred to in the most vitriolic manner. They are even described using the analogies of an illness — such as leprosy or a contagion. I’m personally astounded by Shoghi Effendi’s reaction to the death of Majdi’d-D?n where he figuratively seems to be dancing on a 100 year-old man’s grave. I have a very difficult time reconciling this with the repeated instructions in the Writings to love one’s enemies. And it is based on these Writings, that Baha’is who otherwise are loving, caring and gentle folk, will actually shun covenant breakers, in effect ostracising them from the Baha’i community.

Ofcourse the paradox that this conceptual framework presents is lost on most Baha’is: if this be God’s Cause, how can its light be extinguished? or put another way, if you believe Baha’u’llah is indeed who He says He is, how can any mortal scheme or design damage, deflect or in any way perturp His Cause from its course?

Baha’u’llah says:

The Hand of Omnipotence hath established His Revelation upon an unassailable, an enduring foundation. Storms of human strife are powerless to undermine its basis, nor will men’s fanciful theories succeed in damaging its structure.

Interestingly enough, Baha’u’llah complains in Tarazat about Mirza Hadi Dawlat-Abadi’s instruction to Babis to refrain from communicating with Him. They were, in effect, shunning Baha’u’llah by not entering into His Presence, nor reading or responding to His letters. Mirza Hadi was a supporter of Mirza Yahya, and had been appointed by him to represent and succeed him. So in effect he was the de facto head of the Azalis or the first group of covenant breakers.

But what really bothers me about all this is the extent to which shunning is applied. Its practice doesn’t just extend to the immediate persons cast out, but to their spouses, children, and even grandchildren — unless they explicitly denounce and separate themselves, both physically and spiritually from the offender. This drastic measure rends the loving bonds between families and friends and causes devastation in ordinary lives. It a tragic irony that a Faith which holds as one of its central tenents, unity and harmony would engage such a vicious tool.

A lost point in all this is that the break away groups are so small that they are for all practical purposes insignificant compared to the Baha’i Faith. They number in the hundreds and are in geographically localized communities, while the Baha’i Faith numbers in the millions and is one of the most wide spread world religions today. I don’t understand how the Faith can make such a boogie man out of a handful of people who the vast majority of its people will never meet.

The funny thing about it is that the matter is quite clear cut. I really believe that any Baha’i would easily be able to see that Mason Remey, for example, didn’t have a leg to stand on when he attempted to designate himself as the second Guardian. That goes for the other attempts of schisms during the history of the Faith as well. What I don’t understand is why Baha’is don’t simply inform themselves of the facts and arm themselves with knowledge, instead of reacting with fear and apprehension.

The loaded label of covenant breaker is bandied about quite carelessly and more than not, totally misapplied, by the average Baha’i. It has become a knee jerk reaction to call those who express different opinions on religious matters as covenant breakers or “borderline” covenant breakers (I suppose this is a much easier than actually thinking for themselves or coming up with answers for challenging questions). Yet, this authority does not reside in the hands of just anyone in the Baha’i Faith. In fact, there is a very formal and specific way that a person can be designated as a covenant breaker. Scripturally, the authority resides exclusively with the Hands of the Cause of God (sadly, currently there is only one living Hands of the Cause of God: Dr. Varqa) [Edit: passed away September 22nd, 2007]; who were appointed by the Guardian. During the life of Shoghi Effendi, he chose to remove this authority from the Hands and added it to his own responsabilities. I’m not sure exactly how he justified this or explained it. As far as I know, there is no scriptural evidence to back it up. After his death, this authority was claimed by the Universal House of Justice. Again, I’m not sure how or under what specific scriptural authority this was done.

Having said that, I can actually understand the need of shunning or ostracism when the Faith was young with only a few followers. The idea that at such a tender age it might schism into a multitude of factions and lose its unity and coherence was a valid one. If the provisions had not been made for such a strong reponse at that time, who knows what would have happened. But today, with the success of the Faith, do we still need the same measures of protection? Or are these same measures now innappropriate ?

Perhaps it would help to think about the covenant as it is referred to here by Abdul’Baha:

O army of God! Through the protection and help vouchsafed by the Blessed Beauty–may my life be a sacrifice to His loved ones–ye must conduct yourselves in such a manner that ye may stand out distinguished and brilliant as the sun among other souls.

Should any one of you enter a city, he should become a centre of attraction by reason of his sincerity, his faithfulness and love, his honesty and fidelity, his truthfulness and loving-kindness towards all the peoples of the world, so that the people of that city may cry out and say: `This man is unquestionably a Bah??’?, for his manners, his behaviour, his conduct, his morals, his nature, and disposition reflect the attributes of the Bah??’?s.’

Not until ye attain this station can ye be said to have been faithful to the Covenant and Testament of God. For He hath, through irrefutable Texts, entered into a binding Covenant with us all, requiring us to act in accordance with His sacred instructions and counsels.

I truly wonder how our reaction, as Baha’is, to the words ‘covenant breaker’ (or even to our very lives) would be altered, if we kept the above words fresh in our minds.

  • Anonymous

    I loved your reflections on this subject. And I’m enjoying this blog immensely. thanks for sharing it.

    -L

  • Anonymous

    I loved your reflections on this subject. And I’m enjoying this blog immensely. thanks for sharing it.

    -L

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/7441677 Dave Howden

    I am dismayed by a few things in this post:

    First of all, we are instructed to avoid any contact with covenant-breakers.

    “And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts exerted in the past.”

    -Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith – Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 448

    Second, Shoghi Effendi did not /need/ any scriptural evidence to move this authority from the Hands of the Cause to the Guardian. He was the Guardian of the Cause and had the right to translate and interpret the Writings. Also, perhaps he was preparing for the time when there would no longer be Hands of the Cause, and knew that if none of these posts were filled, no one could be removed from the Faith.

    It is a natural step for the UHJ to assume this role, because it is the head of the Baha’i Community of the World. The UHJ was created after years of deliberation by Hands of the Cause after Shoghi Effendi’s death and we are to believe that the actions taken by these esteemed individuals were right.

    Lastly, you say that because the covenant-breaker population is so small it poses no threat to the Baha’i Community, but Abdu’l-Baha obviously states that it does and that it is because the method of absolute non-contact which has been adopted that the community has remained unified.

    On the subject of this blog I have to say that it does not seem to have the right focus. By christening it Baha’i Rant, you clearly are not looking for truth, but for a place to voice and strengthen any problems you may have with the Faith. This does not seem a ahealthy choice. It seems that the contents of this blog are directed purely to people who also have problems with the Faith, rather than its defenders.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/7441677 Dave Howden

    I am dismayed by a few things in this post:

    First of all, we are instructed to avoid any contact with covenant-breakers.

    “And now, one of the greatest and most fundamental principles of the Cause of God is to shun and avoid entirely the Covenant-breakers, for they will utterly destroy the Cause of God, exterminate His Law and render of no account all efforts exerted in the past.”

    -Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith – Abdu’l-Baha Section, p. 448

    Second, Shoghi Effendi did not /need/ any scriptural evidence to move this authority from the Hands of the Cause to the Guardian. He was the Guardian of the Cause and had the right to translate and interpret the Writings. Also, perhaps he was preparing for the time when there would no longer be Hands of the Cause, and knew that if none of these posts were filled, no one could be removed from the Faith.

    It is a natural step for the UHJ to assume this role, because it is the head of the Baha’i Community of the World. The UHJ was created after years of deliberation by Hands of the Cause after Shoghi Effendi’s death and we are to believe that the actions taken by these esteemed individuals were right.

    Lastly, you say that because the covenant-breaker population is so small it poses no threat to the Baha’i Community, but Abdu’l-Baha obviously states that it does and that it is because the method of absolute non-contact which has been adopted that the community has remained unified.

    On the subject of this blog I have to say that it does not seem to have the right focus. By christening it Baha’i Rant, you clearly are not looking for truth, but for a place to voice and strengthen any problems you may have with the Faith. This does not seem a ahealthy choice. It seems that the contents of this blog are directed purely to people who also have problems with the Faith, rather than its defenders.

  • Anonymous

    The acceptance and encouragement of shunning in the case of covenant breakers sometimes carries over to people who have broken Baha’i laws. I’m not sure why. Perhaps Baha’is feel that folks who openly, as opposed to secretly, break a law are covenant breakers too. They are not. They are simply imperfect. Why is there no room for imperfect souls in the Baha’i Faith?

  • Anonymous

    The acceptance and encouragement of shunning in the case of covenant breakers sometimes carries over to people who have broken Baha’i laws. I’m not sure why. Perhaps Baha’is feel that folks who openly, as opposed to secretly, break a law are covenant breakers too. They are not. They are simply imperfect. Why is there no room for imperfect souls in the Baha’i Faith?

  • Anonymous

    “Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation
    of these words, been nullified and abolished.”

    Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah (p. 94)

  • Anonymous

    “Whatsoever hath led the children of men to shun one another, and hath caused dissensions and divisions amongst them, hath, through the revelation
    of these words, been nullified and abolished.”

    Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah (p. 94)

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  • thelasthonestguy

    I do believe that every religion is right in its own way, also that we have one God. But not beveling in Satan and hell is where i start to go astray from the Bahia faith! Just look at all the music and shows there devils symbolism everywhere, not to mention that the 3 worlds largest religions all believe in Satan and hell! Also the part about Jesus being reincarnated is pretty offensive and i'm not even Christian! Jesus will return when its time for him to kill the Antichrist which obviously didn't happen when your “Jesus” came! Also your religion seems to talk a lot about 1 world government aka NEW WORLD ORDER, George Orwell 1984 any1? Don't get me wrong Iran needs to stop the persecution of Bahia's, every1 is entitled to his or her opinion, just wanted to clear up some facts about this religion for any1 whose still looking for the right 1! God Bless!!!!!!

  • Baquia

    In case you are interested to learn about ideas other than your own, may I suggest Elaine Pagel's excellent book: “The Origin of Satan”?

    As well, if you step back and look at the wider panorama of human history you soon realize the evolution of human collectivity as it progresses from family, to tribe, to city state, to nation, to continental trade & economic treaties. The next natural progression is the recognition of the unity of humanity and that we are really just one family, living in the same home (a round blue marble floating in vast space).

    George Orwell's distopian work is a warning about totalitarianism. Since the Baha'i Faith believes in the separation of Church and State, democratic governance and the application of the rule of law to all, what you are implying is completely false.

  • thelasthonestguy

    Point well taken and sorry for the misconception, I like how the religion seems very peaceful but don't you agree that every religion has its faults, why would we be lied to by God about Satan? Isn't he the God of truth and love? Isn't Satan the lier and deceiver. Satan is the king of deceiving I just see him using the Bahia faith and the peaceful followers as a front to abandon the fact that he's real, remember Satan doesn't want you to think he's real. Just like Iran using Islam as a front for wicked doing. The fact that Baha'ullah claimed to be the Chosen One and that Jesus was reincarnated makes me wonder if Satan tricked him into doing his dirty work, so people know have a peaceful religion where Satan is denied. Other than that I've done more research on the Bahia Faith and I do agree that every individual needs to search for God no matter what religion but doing it in accordance to God's will is crucial. Also if we don't believe in evil spirits than its safe to think all spiritual things are right! We need to as a people focus on God but also realize their is a common enemy. God Bless!

    Jer 23:21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Isa 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

    Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits

    Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

    Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves

    Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

    2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

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  • xx

    This is a great article, as a baha’i, I do very much agree that shunning is just out barbarian and out dated. It causes devisions and has danger to turn the
    baha’i faith to an authortarian cult. This need to be discussed and demanded to be stopped.

  • Desir0101

    Hello Baquia.
    Can you please enlightened me by quoting a passage where Bahaullah says that evil does not exist.

    Thanks for your response.

  • Desir0101

    Can someone please help.
    Really could someone qoute me the passage where Bahaullah say that evil does not exist. I said ”Bahaullah’s quote”

    Thanks a lot.

  • Anonymous

    Hello Desir0101,
    This is a fascinating question. Thank you for asking it. I’ve contacted Nader Saiedi and Sen McGlinn but initially they can’t recall a quote from Baha’u’llah regarding this. Personally, I would suggest you contact the Research Dept at the world center through the secretariat: secretariat@bwc.org

    They may take a bit of time to respond but they will. When they do, please let us know. In the meantime, if I hear back anything from my contacts, I’ll share as well.

    Finally, my apologies, I should have replied to your earlier comment but I wanted to have a substantive response instead of just saying, “I don’t know”

  • Craig Parke

    I think the concept comes from a quote from Abdu’l-Baha. But if you read this book it appears evil is basically what humans do really, really well in GROUPS.

    http://www.amazon.com/Lucifer-Principle-Scientific-Expedition-History/dp/0871136643

    So it looks like Group think is the origin of all serious evil. I believe evil is a psychological state in us as human beings. So far things appear to be going down hill right on schedule in the current version of the Baha’i Faith. People deserved much better leadership than what they got. Much, much better indeed! I tried for 32 years of total dedication. A horrible experience in the end. The HBF 1.0 in it’s current version is one of the most impaired organizations on Earth. Incompetence DOES EXIT BIG TIME and it appears to be a much worse fate than mere garden variety evil.

  • Desir0101

    Thanks both for your reply.Craig and Baquia.

    As concerning the secretariat dept. I sent a few questions there and never get answered.No matter. May be they have not the answer themselves.
    Bahaullah quote 41 times the word ”evil” and to some 5 times ”Evil One” in the Gleaning, where the latter is in capital word.

    Ref.CXXV111,LXV1,XL111
    p.117, P144,P40-49.
    Quote from light of guidance below.

    XLII. PSYCHIC PHENOMENA

    1730. Source of Evil Thoughts

    “They come from other minds: they are reflected. One should not become a mirror for them–to reflect them, neither should one try to control them for this is impossible: it only aggravates the difficulty, causing more to appear.

    “One should constantly turn the mirror of his heart squarely toward God so that the Light of the Sun of Truth may be reflected there.

    “This is the only cure for attacks of evil thoughts. The face of the mirror should be turned toward God and the back of the mirror toward the evil thoughts.”

    (Abdu’l-Bah??: Daily Lessons Received at Akka, p. 35, 1979 ed.)

    1731. Evil Spirits1734. Evil Exists

    “We must never take one sentence in the Teachings and isolate it from the rest: it does not mean we must not love, but we must reach a spiritual plane where God comes first and great human passions are unable to turn us away from Him. All
    the time we see people who either through the force of hate or the passionate attachment they have to another person, sacrifice principle or bar themselves from the Path of God.

    “We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness was not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something else. So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good, and if we see an evil person is not influenceable by us, then we should shun his company for it is unhealthy.”

    (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 4, 1950: Spiritualism, Psychic Phenomena and Related Subjects, A Compilation from the Universal House of Justice, February 14, 1973 to National Spiritual Assemblies)

    It’s self explanatory.

    Thought is a spiritual sense, as quoted from Saint jean D’Acre,ABDULBAHA, REF LV1.(french version,sorry pls.)
    Thought should emanate from an entity that’s man. By the time you emit a thought, in the non physical world it exist.You can project yourself at a certain level of conciousness and visit the thought you have created and enjoy it as a reality. The absence of something, I believe is not a void.
    Every one can experience and witness the destruction may cause by a negative thought and behaviour.In this world to every action there is a reaction. Night -day,good-bad, quick= slow etc etc.But the degree of conciousness level that are different.

    And I believe that EVIL do exist and affect those whose spiritual level is low.

    Hope sincerely more light could be shed on.

    Thanks.

  • Desir0101

    I would like to quote from the Gleaning ref.XL111.
    ”whatsoever hath led the children of men to “”shun”” one another, and hath caused dissenssions and divisions amongst them, hath through the revelation of these words been nullified and abolished”.

    SHUNNing clearly stated by Bahaullah been nullified.
    Why institutions and Bahais still believe in such primitive sanction.

  • Craig Parke

    I agree. I can no longer support shunning of anyone on this little planet for so called “religious” reasons. Period. It is pure evil to countenance any such behavior in the “Name of God” in this new World Age. It is utter baloney. Didn’t someone once say that if a person’s “religion” is the cause of disunity and dissension among men they are better off with no “religion” at all. Very true words! And people who teach the low spiritual state of “shunning”other people and splitting up families can get on the next express train to the innermost ring of Hell. I ain’t getting on that train! No way! I’m done after decades of dedicated service in the Faith. I did not see the great evil of this mindset before. I certainly do now. I’m also going to join Amnesty International. In a recent article on Huffington Post it said the Iranian Baha’is recently went to them for help regarding Baha’is imprisoned for their beliefs in Iran! Yet Baha’is THEMSELVES are FORBIDDEN to join Amnesty International! LOL! Can there be any greater example of mind bending dysfunctional cognitive dissonance than this? It is GAME OVER!

  • Desir0101

    Craig your are right I appreciate your reasoning.
    I served the Bahai faith for 40 years.
    I have been LSA and NSA member, and did some pioneering.
    Then I took my distance.

  • Craig Parke

    Hi Desir0101,

    Yes. I served for decades too. I was once even an Assembly Trainer back in the Day! But all individual thought is now currently TOTALLY shut down in the top down Baha’i Faith to try to meet the CURRENT REAL NEEDS of the world. Everything now is geared to some far off Come-to-Jesus moment for the World!

    For instance I sincerely recommend this video for people to try to grasp some kind of understanding of how the World got into the current dire financial mess it is in. Is there a Ruhi Book on Central Bank Monetary Policy yet?

    The Secret of Oz
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIhDdST27g

    I have some theories on how the world could manage a way out of this debt catastrophe without excessive massive austerity and without QE caused hyper inflation.

    We are facing a 500 year event. I certainly don’t think the people of the United States are up to understanding this situation but maybe they are? I really hope I am wrong about this. But so far most people are completely uneducated in understanding the financial machinery of what is happening. I believe the Internet is our last chance for people to educate themselves and THINK their way out of this! Entire families have to do this if we are to survive as a society in the United States. I think there will have to be a completely NEW Political Party of people who understand the massive corruption of the current financial system to do what must now be done.

    Again, the Baha’is could have been players if social activist magazines like “Dialog Magazine” had not been completely shut down in the Faith in 1987. We as a global community would have had 24 years of deep thought and analysis going by now on these critical issues. But the cupboard is completely bare now. All independent social thought became very dangerous to one’s good standing in the Baha’i Faith after that. Ruhiization was substituted to shut all independent thought down.

    I my write an economics book now myself on how I see it as that is my formal degree even though I work as a professional software engineer, but I would certainly never mention anything about a Baha’i connection in it in any ideas presented to risk a knock on my door Inquisition from a Counselor or ABM or AABM! I am sure many people feel that way now. All independent thought has been completely shut down. To speak out on any current social issues with any original ideas connected to the Baha’i Faith is risking being thrown out of the Faith by First Class Postage (not even by Registered Mail!) as has happened to many across the entire World now in various thought police Inquisitions and Inquiries.

    I have been informally in touch with Ellen Brown on some mutual blog posts at times. She is definitely on the right track!

    ELLEN BROWN – WEB OF DEBT
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU0XiklHPMc

    I think this is the only way out now for the United States. Perhaps it will then be an example for other countries if we could do this Plan over time.

    Ellen Brown – Cali Bank Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2atnm1oTjJ8

    Ellen Brown – Cali Bank Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7oTt9kqoes

    Ellen Brown – Cali Bank Part 3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oESVmJqDQU

    Ellen Brown – Cali Bank Part 4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR9YH-RPGSE

    Ellen Brown – Cali Bank Part 5
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp19_QGsDFE

    Baha’u’llah permitting usury interest just ain’t looking too good right now in the current scam fraud debacle! But maybe the UHJ could put a spin on it that it is OK for small community banking institutions to impose usury but NOT the Central Bank of Any Nations? That would be great if it was in the Kitab-I-Aqdas instead of the length of male hair and cutting your finger nails! But what was He supposed to come up with for the hapless guys of lock step Shia Islam in the 19th Century who never got the Memo on the Renaissance?

    Maybe there is a nice as yet untranslated Tablet like that! Maybe the Maid of Heaven was up on future good monetary policy worldwide?

    Maybe!

    So it goes.

    Best to you!

    Craig

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tyg5SJDpiQ

  • Desir0101

    Hi Baquia,
    Quote”it’s important to note that in the Bahai faith we don’t believe in
    the devil or even hell”
    Bahaullah quote 5 times the word HELL in the Gleaning at page 42, 285, 207, 158 and 43. and I don’t know if He gave explanation .
    But Just because Abdulbaha said once in Questions and Answers that “”the absence of light is darkness”” annihilate all other scriptures’ definition.

    Every one can testify that the negative force has a powerful grip on us.

    Did Abdulbaha contradict his own opinion. Or Bahais who misunderstood.

    Surely darkness can’t rival light so do bad and good.
    But it exist and has always existed.

    thanks .

  • Anonymous

    Desir, yes there are many mentions of words like ‘evil’, ‘satan’, ‘hell’, etc. The Writings are usually very poetic and allegorical in nature with many symbols and image laden rhetoric. So it isn’t surprising to see this. After all, it would be extremely boring and trite for each mention to instead go into a long digression about what those words actually mean.

    But we know from reading specific writings that deal with this that in Baha’i theology, such words refer to a lack of virtue or a base motivation. We have two natures within us, the baser ‘animal’ or physical and the higher, spiritual. When we act in accordance with God’s laws and guidance, we are approaching His perfections. When we are motivated by selfish and baser motivations then we move away from God. This is what all the referecens to these concepts mean.

    That’s the explanation in my own words. Here are some quotes from Abdul-Baha for further clairty.

  • Craig Parke

    I think “evil” is overrated. I think “evil” misses the far greater points. I think mind bending stupidity and massive incompetence is far worse in the current problems on this unfortunate impaired Planet than “evil”. Maybe a new religion would help? Something like “Baha’is Under the Provisions of Common Sense.” (BUPCS)?

  • Desir0101

    You may be right.

  • Anonymous

    LoL Craig, you’ve got a great sense of humor and yes, I agree with you.

  • Craig

    Always remember when contemplating me that I DID PERSONALLY MEET Kurt Vonnegut face to face in NYC back in 1983. It is the only thing that keeps me going now on this incredibly impaired little Planet that is greatly in need of mass psychotherapy. He was one of the very few people I have ever met in my life who was EXACTLY in person what you thought he would be like. A wonderful man! I would say William Sears was another one like that too. It looks like KV really nailed what happened to us with the whole “Ice Nine” concept. And what can anyone say about the life journey of Billy Pilgrim that hasn’t already been said?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX59OSOpatU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS7l6i4w11U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqC_XzPfBQY

    So it goes.

    Best to everyone here!

    PS
    Try listening to JFK’s speech over one of Hendrix’s tunes in your browser headset! Works for me every time!

  • Desir0101

    Hi Baquia,
    REF. Light of Guidance.

    1772. What is Commonly Called Evil Spirits is Normally an Imaginary Creation But Evil Influences Both in This World and the Next

    “In regard to your question concerning evil spirits and their influence upon souls,
    Shoghi Effendi wishes me to inform you that what is generally called evil spirit is a purely imaginary creation and has no reality whatever. But as to evil, there is no doubt that it exerts a very strong influence both in this world and in the next. Abdu’l-Bah?? in the ‘Some Answered Questions’ gives us a thorough and true analysis of the problem of evil. You should preferably refer to that book for further explanation on that point.”

    (From a letter written on be1735. Psychic Powers in Children–Dangerous to Cultivate

    “What Abdu’l-Bah?? always pointed out in this matter is that these psychic powers were not to be used in this world, and that, indeed, it was dangerous to cultivate them here. They should be left dormant, and not exploited, even when we do so with the sincere belief we are helping others. We do not understand their nature and have no way of being sure of what is true and what is false in such matters.

    “If children are inclined to be psychic they should not be blamed for it too harshly; they should not be encouraged to strengthen their powers in this direction.”

    (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, March 4, 1946: Ibid.)half of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 1, 1934)

    And have you never read this writing from Abdulbaha, don’t try to practice psychic experience or in the NEXT world your soul will suffer.

    I believe they are hiding something from us.
    Both use this term “”in this world and the next” to be influenced by evil.

    I personally experiences psychic phenomena but really there are something out there.

    Bye,

  • Anonymous

    Perhaps I’m too scientific but I don’t really believe in psychic powers. For decades they’ve made every effort to demonstrate or observe it and failed completely. I lump it along with horoscopes – which by the way had many who confused astrology with astronomy in a tizzy recently.

    If you care to demonstrate your psychic powers there’s a cool million dollars here.

  • Craig Parke

    It looks then like BOTH Ouija Boards and the ever popular “Magic Eight Ball” in American International Business Corporation management are BOTH out now for the UHJ making their “infallible” decisions. This could have major implications now on the deluge of “THE LEARNINGS” and “THE GUIDANCE”. This means they have to go on INTELLECT, REASON, and CONSCIENCE alone I guess.

    But according to the speeches of BOTH Peter Khan and Douglas Martin over the last ten years INDIVIDUAL PERSONAL CONSCIENCE is ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN in the new Baha’i Faith now. The personal opinions of the members of the UHJ as set forth in their speeches are apparently supposed to be everyone’s “conscience” because whatever they say it seems is immediately accepted by the hive mind Ruhiized Baha’is as the absolute improved standard of the Teachings of the Faith with absolutely no critical thought process whatsoever.

    To disagree with any personal opinion of any lifetime incumbent member of the UHJ is tantamount to Covenant Breaking in the new top down Baha’i Faith. So maybe a Ouija Board and a Magic Eight Ball would be better as a direct Hot Line to the Divine after all in a thought system like this? Just like Islam and the Roman Catholic Church, the HBF seems to not have gotten the memo on the Renaissance and Enlightenment either?

    Again, I say evil is grossly overrated! Simple garden variety Incompetence and stupidity are sufficient unto the Day.

    I myself believe, Baquia, through my reading and study of C.G. Jung that there is a lot of very useful truth in Esoteric Archetypal Astrology. I recommend Googling “Richard Tarnas”. One could make a case that this is the system of esoteric mystical thought at the innermost level of the Kitab-I-Iqan. But according to Peter Khan in one of his speeches in the last two years all esotericism is now ALSO COMPLETELY FORBIDDEN in the Baha’i Faith! Ruhi “by-the-numbers” pre-approved fill in the blanks is all that is acceptable or you will be getting a knock on the door to be called in for a “friendly” but SEVERE interrogation from a Counselor, ABM, or AABM. Apparently no individual independent investigation of ANYTHING WHATSOEVER ALLOWED OR ELSE in the new top down, lockstep Baha’i Faith!

    So it goes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWLw7nozO_U

    Everyone have a nice week!

  • Desir0101

    Hi Craig,
    Surely Iam not against.

  • Desir0101

    Hi Baquia,
    YOu should not confuse with superstition, fancy imagination, and power that are inherent in every human but in dormant state.

    If you have never experienced inner power within you this does not mean that it exist not. The power of the soul is boundless but restricted within the mortal self. Some can expand it earlier than others.

    You say”I’M too scientific”, but you believe in something you call GOD which have never been able to prove it existence by any sciences and scientists. But You believe in a supernatural power you never seen, tough nor experience or you to prove but you deny the power within you. What a big contrast. Or may be “”i”m too scientific”” have other interpretation.

    Thanks.

  • Anonymous

    That is true but there is no verifiable ‘test’ for God whereas there is for paranormal or psychic powers.

  • Desir0101

    Hi Baquia I will not extend the discussion further.
    Just to remind you that scientist up today have never been able to capture image store in your memory ,dream etc etc. They are at the ground level in understanding the brain function. They witness the result but they can’t explain and then assign it to deviation from natural order or mental disorders. That’s is beyond sciences.

    They can’t understand their own body function how could they understand that which transcend physical states.

    you say “”i’m too scientific”” in what sense I don’t know.
    But can you with a physical device measure your faith and prove it to
    me. Just a simple test.????
    So be careful when you say “I don’t believe or I believe.

    According to history, BAB projected himself out of the prison ,witnessed by the soldiers but in fact his physical body was in the prison cell.
    Same for Bahaullah, Ghandhi. If you are a Bahai you must believe in the fire rifle in Tabriz where BAB’s body disappeared and be found later in the cell alive. When you don’t understand you call it miracle.
    No one can prove it, we just witness the result.

    BYE.

  • James

    Interestingly, there was a Russian scientist in the 20th century who cultivated a system of therapy to treat the underlying cause of asthma. Rather than treating the symptoms, the breathing, etc, he treated the imbalance of oxygen and CO2 in the blood, which causes the asthma attacks. He claimed that as a result of using the therapy to improve his own health (it has the added benefit of boosting the immune system, making it useful for non-asthmatics) that he experienced an enhancement he described as “mind-reading”. But it could be backed up by the writings of the Guardian.

    Nevertheless, I have to comment here about your later post regarding The Bab, and his martydrom. In order to “project” your body into another location, you’d have to manipulate with your mind/spirit the laws of physics. So you’d either have to “create” with atoms an entire new body that you then case to disappear…. or you cause thousands of onlookers including your captors to believe that you’ve been carted in public and tied to a post. Heck, even your companion woul dhave to believe you.

    Quite frankly, it would be so much easier for a physic master to simply allow himself to be tied to the post, and then simply prevent the bullets from harming himself and his companion.

    Really… is this ammateur hour? SO Much easier to just do what the Bab is given credit for: mysteriously avoiding bullets and going back to his cell (whether walking through a cloud of dust or teleporting, it doesn’t matter. WAY easier than fooling people.)

    And that is why speculating on MIRACLES is a waste of time.

  • Deir0101

    Hi James,
    No matter how people at that time interpreted the scene.But what I believe it’s a miracle for those who are ignorant of certain verities that we can cultivate psychic powers which are inherent within us to create events that surpass the common belief of those who are not.

  • Desir0101

    James.
    About projecion from his prison cell.
    We have several bodies within ourselves.A well trained physic subject can project his conscious-energy body out of his physical ones and lower its frequency at same level to the material body that you can perceive the energy body as real.

  • Desir0101

    I am depicting two events.
    ””Projection from his prison cell””
    Once He was in prison, I forgot which one, but the guards got formal orders not to allow Bab any free time.
    But to the surprise of the prison leader he saw Bab out side, under a tree and in a meditative state.He was furious and rushed into the prison but saw the Bab still and well locked.

    The pojection was in fact his conscious energy body. Not to confuse with the event in Tabriz.

  • fubar

    Hi Desir0101 and All,

    (another ex-bahai viewpoint)

    The traditional (Judeo-Christian-Islamic), unsophisticated idea of “Hell” (not EVIL) as a physical location that is opposite of “Heaven” is clearly rejected in bahai scripture. This distances bahaism from some of the superstitious baggage that weighs down fundamentalist/traditional religions (which came into existence in imperialist-slave cultures ruled by priest classes who enforced Absolutist dogmas in order to control and exploit slaves, serfs, peasants…).

    re: Evil, “Occult” practices and sociopaths/psychopaths – bahaism seriously mixed up?

    So, bahaism makes a slight improvement, but has a a really big problem with buddhism and other paths (e.g., shamanism) to Spirit that are based on “body” (not head) practices. Specifically, traditional dharma/pagan practices that promote direct access to transcendence, and/or direct spirirtual liberation, that DO NOT REQUIRE AN INTERMEDIARY, are seriously misinterpreted in bahaism (which requires SUBMISSION to intermediary “manifestations” which are, archetypally, meta-priest-class “daddy-gods”{?}).

    As B. says, bahaism uses a more nuanced, metaphorical definition, presumably originating in the more advanced thinking of (late?) sufis or other islamic esotericists. (which probably cross-fertilized with other “dangerous” european and asian esoteric traditions in the late medieval period.)

    According to M. Scott Peck and others who are both psychiatrists and theologians, Evil is interpreted differently depending on archetypal (memetic) standpoint, or paradigm.

    MODERN ORGANIZATIONS ARE FULL OF EVIL.

    Specifically, they are full of evil *anti-democratic* memes that dehumanize and exploit people.

    Modernists/Postmodernists are certainly more comfortable with metaphorical meanings, and consider the superstitious beliefs associated with “Evil” (or “occult” practices) to be silly.

    Traditionalists (or at least fundamentalists) are more comfortable with literal meanings, which might, or might not, be intertwined with “superstitions”.

    For some postmodernists, and all integralists, it is certainly possible to accept that there might be “more than one truth”.

    There is a considerable body of “scientific” work related to psychopaths and sociopaths that relates to organizational/social change theory, workplace bullying, and so forth.

    I believe that if one examines such work, one will see, at least partly, in the earlier religious traditions’ notions of “Hell”, “Evil”, etc. a shadow of such psychiatric science.

    Just a Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr., “re-interpreted” the meaning of early religious scriptures to reflect modern ideals of “freedom” and human dignity (democracy), it is possible to re-interpret the concept of “Evil” and apply it to racists, predatory capitalists, fundamentalist religious goons, cult leaders, dysfunctional bahai administrators and their sycophant lemming followers, and so forth.

    I personally think that the bahai “covenant” is pure evil in the sense that it puts bahai “followers” in the position of having to promote their version of utopia as the only on that has “real” spiritual validity.

    It simply replaces competing version fo dysfunctional “occult” beliefs and “superstitions” with imperialistic religious beliefs (visions of a global bahai theocracy) that are hostile to freedom, rationalism, democracy.

    the bahai critique of the “materialism” of modern cultures is seriously inept and superficial, which simply points out that bahaism lacks “authenticity” and spiritual depth.

  • Desir0101

    Hi Fubar,
    Religions have played a vital role in civilization development and human consciousness.
    It’s, we human that makes misuse of influences of religion on the masses. You are right.

    Our main discussion was on ”EVIL””

    “Evil’ and apply it to racists…” you are still right.
    But what I want to demontrate that…

    Evil is not a result of primary action of atoms and molecules in the human body, which then produces negative thought, but I believe the contrary.
    The manifestation of evil(human thought) result from the outer scene when analyses by the faculties and negative qualities create reaction of atoms, molecules and hormones.

    This negative states always exits.

    We are just create situation to allow it to manifest in our being.

    Our body is just the executor.

    ”Modernists/postmodernists” are those people that deny their own realities.
    Rest assure if you have never experience love, faith, happiness, sorrows, anger which does not mean that it exist not.And you will never understand it.

    To the extent of your spiritual attainment so shall your understanding be.

    Bye.

  • Fubar

    Thanks for the excellent feedback.

    Not sure if you are stating science, or something else, or a mix.

    From a purely scientific viewpoint (and there are others that are valid, to different contexts) thoughts result from biochemical reactions, and are patterned on the events caused by neuro-linguistic and other “wiring” (evolution) in response to environment, which then forms behavior which may cause change to the evironment. Linguistic theory (Mark Turner, George Lakoff, etc.) states that linguistic processing has a complex, but specific structure in the human brain, that primarily supports “story telling”. In other words, at the level of biology, almost all human thought is about metaphors (especially abstract thought, and possibly including much of “spiritual” thought).

    This is why i think it is important to point out that bahaism and western religions, which have contributed to the advance of civilization (probably more because they provided a “container” for such development) may have a made a really gigantic mistake by marginalizing “body” paths to spirit (yoga, shamanism, etc.)

    I’m not sure, but I think this means that since thoughts arise from “embodiment” (biology), that robots/AI, will never really be capable of exactly the same thing as “human” consciousness.

    Note: Lakoff is a severe critic of “pure rationalism”, he says that the “mechanical model” of the universe implied by pure rationalism is not sufficient, and does not involve enough “metaphor” to explain human experience.

    (Oddly, this seems like it mirrors discussion by Bloom in “The Closing of the American Mind”, which touches on the themes raised by Nietzsche and others during the Weimar Republic/German Enlightenment – Sturm und Drang, Appollonian and Dionsyan experience….)

    For people that are extremely evil, such as psychopaths, it would seem that there is something “broken” in their brain function (compassion and empathy are “missing”).

    There is probably a similar, more complex group dynamic that is more about psychology and primate evolution (group think) than it is about metaphysics.

    ???

  • Fubar

    According to some theorists, the idea that “individual” consciousness can be considered separate from “group” is very questionable. More like “individual” and “group” are part of some larger combined state of existence /holon.

    Example: for most of cellular evolution, existence has been in the form of colonies, groups and societies (at increasing complexity). There are very few examples of true “individual” existence, and none are “advanced” forms of life as far as I know.

    “Individual” can not be taken apart from “group”.

  • Desir0101

    Hi Fubar,
    Sorry for my poor vocabulary.
    English language is not my mother tongue neither my favorite ones.

    But do you think that through advance tech. treating the biochemical reaction we can create spiritualize people.

  • Fubar

    Thanks for the excellent feedback. I am enjoying your comments, and deeply regret not knowing your language. I know how you feel about the english language (my famly is from the south/midwest).

    So you know, I study theories about paradigm shifts and “conciousness studies”, more than religion, theology and metaphysics.

    The “God helmet” experiments showed that what people consider “spiritual” is really biochemistry and evolution:

    By simply putting a specific type of weak (harmless) electro-magnetic field into an specific area of the brain, many people, without any “spiritual discipline”, will “see Jesus”, or experience some similar type of deep “spiritual” experience.

    The area of the brain that can be stimulated to create “spirituality” evolved as an adaptive response to anxiety caused by advances in “linguistic processing” in out human primate ancestors. Advanced linguistic ability in early “humans” allowed those people to “imagine their death” for the first time in evolutionary history. This ability to “imagine death” at some future time caused fear and anxiety. Such fear and anxiety was not good for survival, so the human evolved to be able to create “tranquil” and “spiritual” feelings, such as a sense that a “protector” God existed that cared for, and loved, the person with death-anxiety.

    All “religion” was the result of EVOLUTION.

    Ironic, really if you think about how many religions do not like the scientific theory of evolution!

    In Transpersonal Psychology and similar New Age (Holistic) movements, traditional categories that separate “spiritual” and “material” existence are not as meaningful as they used to be.

    Existence is a holistic combination of interior/exterior meanings and individual/group experiences.

    Sorry if any of that was confusing, or not clear.

    have a nice day.

  • Fubar

    correction: “in OUR human primate ancestors”

  • Fubar

    Desir9191 said: “But do you think that through advance tech. treating the biochemical reaction we can create spiritualize people.” and “evil, inside or outside”?

    These are questions, very good ones, that arise from use of traditional (rigid) categories. Traditional categories carry meaning, but tend to lack flexibility and lack relevancy in modern/postmodern (holistic) contexts.

    Again, for people that prefer them, better answers can result from use of Holistic/Integral categories.

    The Holistic view is that EVIL is both “outside” (in society) AND “inside” (the individual). EVIL goes back and forth between the individual and society. EVIL is both biochemistry AND group conditioning (“beliefs”).

    For example: an evil person (psychopath) will more easily “absorb” – through observation – human cruelty. The psychopath’s brain chemistry AND their lack of compassion and empathy will make it easier for them to “learn” how to be evil from other people. Such “Evil” can be transmitted through groups and culture (including mass media, or traditional culture, ancient archetypes, etc.)

    Many experiments in psychology show that even people that are not normally lacking in compassion and empathy as “individuals” will do EVIL things in group situations (including religious groups).

    Much of what “individual” humans experience is “filtered” through socialization (life experience as part of a social species).

    For a person influenced by pre-modern culture, EVIL will be seen and experienced in ways that might tend to be more “superstitious” (non-rational).

    So, since there are different categories of meaning associated with pre-modern, modern and post-modern culture, there are different contexts for what “EVIL” means.

    In all contexts, the tendency toward “category Absolutism” will tend to lead away from “Truth”.

  • Fubar

    correction: “Desir0101 said:” …

  • fubar

    Also:

    Desir0101 said: “But do you think that through advance tech. treating the biochemical reaction we can create spiritualize people.”

    Various “spiritual technologies” (methods/practices) have already been developed over thousands of years in different cultures and religious traditions, such as yoga, meditation, shamanism (which can use psycho-active “natural” substances).

    Science seems to indicate that humans have been using substances to enhance consciousness through all of human evolution. Use of “drugs” for spiritual, and/or entertainment, purposes is possibly part of our evolutionary “wiring”.

    When the cultural supports for healthy use of enhancements is missing, social and moral problems result.

    These practices clearly can lead to a person enhancing the biochemistry they “got from evolution” that is traditionally interpreted as being the cause of profoundly “spiritual” or “religious” experiences.

    It seems likely that as science comes to understand the brain better, it is more likely that science will find ways to enhance consciousness in ways that traditionally was considered “spiritual”.

    Many early attempts at experimenting with such practices have value. Most of those were adaptations of existing traditional Dharma practices at places like Esalen (Big Sur, California).

    For example, George Leonard, founder of the “Human Potential Movement” experimented with Martial Arts as part of an Integral Transformative Practice (mind-body-soul practice).

    Dr. Andrew Weil is similarly famous for advancing Integrative Medicine, which uses science to validate traditional (non-western) healing practices.

    I think that the real question, especially for people like bahais that have a belief in the “harmony of science and religion”, is:

    “what is integrative spirituality?”

    how do leading edge “scientific” theories, brain science, consciousness studies, linguistic theory, inform people about the experience, including the healing experience, of “spirituality”?

    unfortunately this seems to be something that is of infinite possibility, but also almost completely ignored by most bahais, and completely by bahai institutions.

    why the studied ignorance?

    the bahai obsession with “covenant” issues seems backward, irrelevant.

  • Desir0101

    Hi Fubar,
    I really appreciate you expounding on the subject.
    You have a sound knowledge. Thanks .
    But I would like to add something.

    Both our physical body, consciousness and awareness are interwove.
    Fire and heat can be used as a metaphor.
    The pineal gland is a very secret and vital in physic experience.
    I am quite aware that we can alter mood and mental state with drugs and pills administering.
    The body is a very very important medium in alter state of consciousness.
    We can alter body chemistry artificially to create angel or EVIL person. I believe that EVIL is a state of consciousness that exist independent of the physical body.

    But I also believe we can create spiritual states through meditation and developing faith which interact and cause release body chemicals.
    The manifestation of such states took place within both the physical and spiritual state at such particular time.

    If you are more concern with scientific views you will orient your research accordingly.
    We know that the heart is the seat of emotion.

    If every thing (action and reaction) occur within the body chemistry how you explain patient having heart transplanted never experience a shift in his emotion.

    So, it’s clear to me there is something beyond matters and body chemistry.

    Humbly, I would say that I project my consciousness/awareness independent of my physical body.
    I experience things in the none physical world under my control.
    So wonderful and lovely. Every one can do it just try.

    Thanks again. That’s why I believe some groups consider the body to be sacred.

    BYE.

  • Kabs

    I am a non-baha’i/friend of the Faith and this is actually pretty sad and a classic example of fanaticism…

    To first understand the Faith, you must reflect on the writings and THINK… You are reading the writings, but I don’t think you are understanding them in the correct context and by how you wrote them, what you wrote is COMPLETELY true, but such a child’s way of viewing things…

    First of all, the breaking of the covenant, as with the greater covenant, it was kind of OK for the people who scorned the messengers of God to do so, because people were foolish, ignorant and could not see the link between all the religions of God, which is why he sent dual manifestations to try to curb and correct this once improper way of seeing things… I mean, come on, if I said I was a messenger of God right now, would you believe me? However, you have learned from the Faith that a new messenger will come forth and that if you REALLY HAVE FAITH, prophecy may vary or not become truth, that is based on God’s judgement of the World. In his divine wisdom, he knows whether or not we are ready.

    Secondly, Shoghi Effendi would be stern with Covenant breakers because, think of it this way… If you were born in the years where Baha’u’llah was revealing this Faith, this new way of life and you ACTIVELY went against it, then sorry, there’s something wrong with you, because it doesn’t get truer than the truth… IF you recall, historically, Baha’u’llah, Abdul Baha and Shoghi Effendi were very loving to people who didn’t know about the Faith but who scorned them, because obviously, if you don’t know, then how can you be faulted? But if you know about the faith first hand and you work against this spread of truth that would liberate the world, then by what proof have you believed in God? =S

    Thirdly, you are quoting inappropriately from the writings, which MAY be construed as covenant breaking, because, as a non-baha’i reading this, it makes me feel very strange about the Faith and it undoes the work of believers who are trying to teach the actual UNDERSTANDING of the Faith, rather than just opinions based on poor reflection and judgement.

    It actually makes sense why Covenant breaking is stamped upon, whilst it doesn’t alter the “Love thine enemies bit”. Please reflect on that a bit more and it will make sense to you too.. =S

    The Faith is soooo deep and soooo beautiful.

    It says God is All-loving, therefore Hitler can get away with all that he has done?? That’s what you would read right?

    BUT, God is All-just…. So he will sort it out somehow. Have you ever thought about ALL the virtues of God and applying them to one situation?

    Reason why I would bring this analogy of God is that you may read things in the writings, which may seem to contradict one another, but there is actually a reason for each and every one of them and the Faith is soooo transparent like that and the only way that it will make sense is if you think of each one in the proper context in which it was said and done. They aren’t even metaphorical, like in the bible, they are just plain facts which require a bit of thought, logic and application of the circumstances in which they were said…

    BTW, I know this was written a long time ago, I was just replying to it, but hoping that throughout all these years, you have reflected and grown as a believer to understand why what you said was incorrect and potentially harmful to the Faith, not because of the subject, I think nothing is Taboo, but rather, what you said about it, which is kind of ignorant for a Baha’i… Sorry, but as a friend of the Faith, I love the Faith too much to let this one slide =)

    I really hope you understand =S

  • Seeker

    I am a very new Baha’i…I admit, I do not know everything there is to know about the writings or the issues at hand. However, I shall make no judgment, nor do I wish to complain. I wish only to make an observation. It is a bit disconcerting that neither the founder nor the guardians of a faith that stakes its claim in the heart of unity and ONEness of humanity, could not find faith enough to include ALL. As I study and read about all that is asked of Baha’i’s regarding covenant breakers, I wonder if this is really the home I thought I had found. Mother Teresa once said “May God break my heart so wide open that the whole world falls in.” I think she may have very well understood the true capacity of the human spirit. I love studying the Baha’i faith, and I will continue to do so, but if any Baha’i ever asks me to shun any human being because they fear somehow this person has the ability to harm the faith…My response would be simply that no matter what a person does, says, thinks, or believes, we are all connected in a way that cannot be undone. I will walk away from the faith before I will allow them to ask me to turn away a human being that God has seen fit to place in my life.