Time for Ruhi to Show Us the Money: Part II

show-me-the-ruhi

This is the second installment asking why the Baha’i Ruhi courses should “show us the money”. If you missed the first part, then click on the previous link to go back and read it. You can skip it but doing so would be like walking into an LSA meeting; it’ll only leave you confused and unsatisfied.

While Ruhi is attuned to the cultural norms of Colombia, either by design or accident, that does not guarantee or prove that it is a success. That is, proving or showing that there was an inherent fit between the structure or style of the course and the country in which it was first implemented is one thing, showing that it was a success in that country is another matter.

hofstede-cultural-constants-colombia-ukBy the way, the culture that Arbab himself was most familiar with and attuned to, Iran, bears a striking resemblance to that of Colombia. And I’m sure that throughout the process of development, the Ruhi course was in turn molded and shaped into what it is by the very fact that the feedback was coming from Colombians (and not, say, from the UK). So although, initially, it may have had a loose shape, over the many iterations and refinements it underwent, Ruhi progressively came to more and more resemble its environment. And to summarize from Part I, these were: a preference for black and white absolutes (rather than greys), group or collective organization (rather than individuals) and hierarchical (rather than egalitarian) structures.

So under such idyllic conditions: having the full support of the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha’is of Colombia and the Universal House of Justice (along with the ITC), having sufficient financial backing – provided by the institutions – to initiate the project and to refine it iteratively, having a long gestation and maturation to perfect the courses, having a complementary style to the culture of Columbia, was Ruhi successful?

And by this I don’t mean did very many Baha’is in Colombia participate in Ruhi courses, but did Ruhi deliver results? In other words, did Ruhi increase the size of the Colombian Baha’i community? After all, this is why it was created.

If that is news to you, let me pause to explain. The Baha’i community had seen, randomly scattered, large scale conversions before. The challenge was that although a great multitude would enter after a successful teaching campaign, within a short period of time they would drift away or become inactive. Ruhi was created as a systematic method by which human resources could be developed to deepen these new believers and involve them in community life and then, eventually, to engage in another round of teaching campaigns. And so on and so on. This is what “exploiting the framework for action” means. This is what the now common catchphrase “intensive programmes of growth” or IPG means. After all, you can’t have IPG without the G or growth.

But even so, questioning the efficacy of Ruhi at first may seem silly. After all, we all know that Ruhi has expanded beyond Colombia and is now implemented in all Baha’i communities around the world. And yet, the question remains, petulantly tapping its feet, waiting to be answered. It reminds me of the introspection undertaken by Willow Creek Church (thanks to Steve for bringing it to our attention through BahaisOnline):

“Participation is a big deal. We believe the more people participating in these sets of activities, with higher levels of frequency, it will produce disciples of Christ.” This has been Willow’s philosophy of ministry in a nutshell. The church creates programs/activities. People participate in these activities. The outcome is spiritual maturity. In a moment of stinging honesty Hawkins says, “I know it might sound crazy but that’s how we do it in churches. We measure levels of participation.”

Having put so many of their eggs into the program-driven church basket, you can understand their shock when the research revealed that “Increasing levels of participation in these sets of activities does NOT predict whether someone’s becoming more of a disciple of Christ. It does NOT predict whether they love God more or they love people more.”

Having spent thirty years creating and promoting a multi-million dollar organization driven by programs and measuring participation, and convincing other church leaders to do the same, you can see why Hybels called this research “the wake-up call” of his adult life.

A qualitative study such as the one Willow Creek undertook is challenging because it measured factors that aren’t easily quantified. But a study of the efficacy of Ruhi in promoting numerical growth would be rather simple. For example, what if we compared the communities in Colombia that were doing Ruhi in the 1970′s and 1980′s to those in surrounding Latin American countries that hadn’t yet done Ruhi? Such a study would, more or less, isolate Ruhi as the only factor while keeping the same time, culture, economic development, etc.

If we feel extra adventurous, why not look at not just quantitative results but also qualitative ones? After all, if Ruhi can and did improve the quality of our communities, then eventually, those communities would be much more attractive to seekers and as a corollary, they would experience numerical expansion.

So where is our very own survey to find out if Ruhi was a success in Colombia?

As far as I know there hasn’t been any. Although we seem to have become enamored with statistics, keeping track of how many people are taking Ruhi 1 vs. Ruhi 2 or how many A or B or C clusters there are, etc. Similar to Willow Creek’s old approach, all the statistical activity is bent on monitoring the uptake of the Ruhi program, not about its efficacy. And that should be alarming to all Baha’is.

But the feedback is there, in the numbers, if you look carefully. After all, positive results can not hide for long.

Think about it: we’re talking about a sequence of courses, implemented with the full backing of the institutions, in the most fertile environment, for over forty years. Read that again. Ruhi is 40 years old. The exact birth date is nebulous but it is most often cited as being started in late 1960′s and early 1970′s. What that means is that teenagers that were in the first, rudimentary, Ruhi study circles organized by Arbab are now well into middle age. Forty years is two generations!

So, what has Ruhi done for the Colombian Baha’i community after more than 40 years of continuous application?

That is, I think everyone will agree, a fair question to ask. Nowhere else is Ruhi so well suited, nowhere else has Ruhi so much continuous experience, nowhere else has Ruhi undergone so much development than in Colombia.

Has Ruhi set Colombia ablaze with the fire of the Baha’i Faith?

Has Ruhi, after 40+ years, instigated and fueled “entry by troops” in Colombia?

Has Ruhi attracted new believers, swelling the rank of Baha’is in Colombia?

Has Ruhi then deepened these new believers, retaining them and propelling the Colombian Baha’i community ever forward?

Has Ruhi cut a swath through the social fabric of Colombia as easily as a Jewish mother through self-esteem?

If anyone can show that after 40+ years there is an avalanche of results that makes Ruhi irrefutably the success that it is trumped up to be to the rest of the world; then all criticism will be swept aside with one fell swoop.

This should be an incredibly easy task. And it would silence, if not all critics of the Ruhi approach, then most certainly this one. Who dare argue with results? Who dare question or criticize the method when it has brought clear success? Who dare suggest cutting down the tree that yields such goodly fruit? Not I.

Extra credits go to those that can not only provide Baha’i sourced data that shows an explosion of growth in the Baha’i community of Colombia but also confirmation through third-party sources such as government census data or university research reports, etc.

I’ve searched high and low but have not found any such data. This is why I’m putting out an All Points Bulletin (APB). This is the intertubes and they wind their way into all sorts of places. If you are reading this and know of such data or where it can be found, then please drop a comment below and enlighten us all. If any Baha’i is reading this from South America or dare I say it? Colombia… then please make gentle inquiries to your NSA or provide letters, year end reports, or whatever official documentation you can to shut up the critics of Ruhi for good.

Please note that I’m being extremely gentle in this regard because had there been such success, all Baha’is would have heard about it in great detail. And yet, I look forward to being proven wrong because then it will afford me the opportunity to learn something.

If, after 40 plus years of gestation and maturation, through continuous implementation and iterative development and perfection; with a program structure incredibly attuned to and complementary to the culture of its host environment; with the full financial, moral and administrative support of the Baha’i institutions; if with all these advantages, Ruhi can not provide significant results that prove its efficacy beyond a doubt in its native country of Colombia… then by what rationale should we expect it to suddenly start to succeed now? and especially in other, much more hostile cultures?

The next step would be clear:

Trees that yield no fruit have been and will ever be for the fire.
- Baha’u'llah (Persian Hidden Words)

Related posts:

  1. Time for Ruhi to Show Us the Money: Part I
  2. Reports Show Communities Ignoring Ruhi
  3. Sault College Offers Ruhi Course
  4. Baha’i Ruhi Institute Course
  5. Ruhi

  • fubar

    That would be a good question for the people within bahai administration that "investigate" critics, nonconformists and dissidents, and drive such people out of the religion through thought policing and imposition of conformity.

    Please let everyone know when you get an answer.

  • fubar

    That would be a good question for the people within bahai administration that "investigate" critics, nonconformists and dissidents, and drive such people out of the religion through thought policing and imposition of conformity.

    Please let everyone know when you get an answer.

  • fubar

    Farhan, as usual, you are wrong. details drive larger, high-level change, which only later recognises and "institutionalizes" (enacts) a new paradigm. your top-down bahai-speak is contary to evolution, which is bottom-up, and arises from details.

    progresive revelation is a very bad model for spiritual evolution, and is just one example of bad bahai metaphysics, and why bahai is a religion stuck in an old set of inflexible ideas and paradigms that have become "regressive".

  • fubar

    Farhan, as usual, you are wrong. details drive larger, high-level change, which only later recognises and "institutionalizes" (enacts) a new paradigm. your top-down bahai-speak is contary to evolution, which is bottom-up, and arises from details.

    progresive revelation is a very bad model for spiritual evolution, and is just one example of bad bahai metaphysics, and why bahai is a religion stuck in an old set of inflexible ideas and paradigms that have become "regressive".

  • http://www.historylines.net/lishi/index.html Eric Hadley-Ives

    Farhan,

    I think you have expressed a noble ideal, and I hope Baha'i communities are moving toward it. I wish you were writing the official letters that tell Ruhi Tutors what it's all about. In fact, I'd put you in charge of revising the Ruhi books.

    I'm referring to this passage:
    "The purpose of the acts of service is to foster a new culture where people become “the lump” with which their neighbourhood can be “leavened”, PROMOTING a way of life, a culture of service, and not an expansion through competition with other religions or as a political enterprise. These acts of service are open to all, whether Baha’is or not"

  • http://www.historylines.net/lishi/index.html Eric Hadley-Ives

    Farhan,

    I think you have expressed a noble ideal, and I hope Baha'i communities are moving toward it. I wish you were writing the official letters that tell Ruhi Tutors what it's all about. In fact, I'd put you in charge of revising the Ruhi books.

    I'm referring to this passage:
    "The purpose of the acts of service is to foster a new culture where people become “the lump” with which their neighbourhood can be “leavened”, PROMOTING a way of life, a culture of service, and not an expansion through competition with other religions or as a political enterprise. These acts of service are open to all, whether Baha’is or not"

  • farhan

    Eric wrote: In fact, I'd put you in charge of revising the Ruhi books.

    Eric, the books don't need revising; they are mere instruments providing a framework for canalizing a study session. No two study circles are the same, depending on the participants and the experience of tutors. As we repeat the circles and mature in experience, we see the practical results and our understanding of the institute process increases, and this understanding is outlined in the abundant messages of the UHJ on the subject, which few participants have had the time to thoroughly study

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/farhan farhan

    Eric wrote: In fact, I'd put you in charge of revising the Ruhi books.

    Eric, the books don't need revising; they are mere instruments providing a framework for canalizing a study session. No two study circles are the same, depending on the participants and the experience of tutors. As we repeat the circles and mature in experience, we see the practical results and our understanding of the institute process increases, and this understanding is outlined in the abundant messages of the UHJ on the subject, which few participants have had the time to thoroughly study

  • ummyasmin

    I think the intense rollout of Ruhi around the world, and the obsession with take-up statistics was a way of distracting the masses from noticing the Lesser Peace didn't happen. Mind you, I don't think that was necessarily a *conscious* decision, but there had to be something to get the masses involved and doing, given that come 2000 (or 2001) the nations of the world were still busily killing each other and making war on each other.

  • ummyasmin

    I think the intense rollout of Ruhi around the world, and the obsession with take-up statistics was a way of distracting the masses from noticing the Lesser Peace didn't happen. Mind you, I don't think that was necessarily a *conscious* decision, but there had to be something to get the masses involved and doing, given that come 2000 (or 2001) the nations of the world were still busily killing each other and making war on each other.

  • farhan

    ummyasmin wrote: … distracting the masses from noticing the Lesser Peace didn't happen

    ummyasmin, we _are_ in the Lesser Peace; as its name indicates, it is a minor achievement _between_ the world's nations and a failure in internal peace, as compared to what the world could have accomplished had the world's rulers responded to Baha'u'llah's appeal 140 years back.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/farhan farhan

    ummyasmin wrote: … distracting the masses from noticing the Lesser Peace didn't happen

    ummyasmin, we _are_ in the Lesser Peace; as its name indicates, it is a minor achievement _between_ the world's nations and a failure in internal peace, as compared to what the world could have accomplished had the world's rulers responded to Baha'u'llah's appeal 140 years back.

  • Grover

    Well, it was either a big catastrophe was going to happen or the most great peace by 2000 or around then. The UHJ still trots out the world is in travail from time to time, but really if you compare now to the 1940s when world war 2 was happening, everything is looking pretty peachy (apart from a few terrorists and economic troubles keeping things interesting, and of course, if you happen to be living in Iraq, Somalia or Afghanistan, Africa, or wherever America has been meddling). I might be quite naive because I'm living in a nice peaceful western country, but in relativistic terms it seems humanity is pretty close to a general sort of peace. Did this happen naturally or is it the "Spirit of the Age" aka Baha'u'llah's revelation?

    The roll out for Ruhi is only ever for trying to obtain mass conversions, to try and achieve entry by troops which the UHJ has been promising was just on the horizon since it first started.

  • Grover

    Well, it was either a big catastrophe was going to happen or the most great peace by 2000 or around then. The UHJ still trots out the world is in travail from time to time, but really if you compare now to the 1940s when world war 2 was happening, everything is looking pretty peachy (apart from a few terrorists and economic troubles keeping things interesting, and of course, if you happen to be living in Iraq, Somalia or Afghanistan, Africa, or wherever America has been meddling). I might be quite naive because I'm living in a nice peaceful western country, but in relativistic terms it seems humanity is pretty close to a general sort of peace. Did this happen naturally or is it the "Spirit of the Age" aka Baha'u'llah's revelation?

    The roll out for Ruhi is only ever for trying to obtain mass conversions, to try and achieve entry by troops which the UHJ has been promising was just on the horizon since it first started.

  • Amado

    This wondering whether Ruhi works here in South American cultures is an important question – let’s see if I can give a useful answer.
    I kind of like the Ruhi materials – but I have seen them used in ways that I don’t like.
    I remember the air of arcane arrogance with which my Bahá’í brothers and sisters would refer to “the Institute process”at first when they didn’t have a clear idea what was going on, either, but really wanted the rest of us to think that they did.
    I remember the young lady who came to tell us just how we had to do our junior-youth groups, because that was the way to do JY groups – who was appalled when we tried to explain to her that our situation was different than the one she was describing, and thanks for the advice, but we can’t do it that way…
    I remember myself – as a “good Bahá’í”, trying to work for unity, feeling very troubled when my friend told me that (in an Asian, mostly Muslim country) they had to “adapt” the Ruhi materials.
    And I have seen the tutors, “trained” to ensure quality and consistency, stubbornly insist that the answer is this and not that.

    But I also remember when our friends in Colombia began developing these materials, starting with some little booklets with suggestions on doing children’s classes, with coloring, singing, playing (non-competitive) games – nice! And I have therefore seen this as a stage in evolution, and not something we are stuck with.
    Partly so people will not have the typical first reaction (these materials are offensively simplistic, pointless, with no relation to practical life) I have always started out by saying, “We have a religion without a clergy, and are still trying to figure out how to do that. We have tried different kinds of ‘deepening’, different study guides and children’s class materials, courses and so on. This is one of the most recent tries at finding a way to run a religion in which each of us is responsible for knowing what to do!”
    Then we emphasize that Book 1 starts with a three-step process: the too-simple parroting of the quote, the not-so-easy giving of examples of what that means – and the pretty-hard design of ways to put that idea into practice in our own lives. So, we proceed much as in “values clarification” (most of our study-circle members are not Bahá’ís) emphasizing that we all believe pretty much the same things, and the world will be better when we find more ways to put what-we-all-believe into practice!
    Every time we find a question that might have different answers, we work hard to elicit diversity in the answers, and get people explaining why it might be this or it might be that – rather than saying “just put X” as if filling in the spaces in a book would change the world…

    And the results seem reasonably satisfying: everyone in the circle gives some thought to “spiritual things”, about 10-15% become Bahá’ís and most of them continue meeting to study. There is a Local Spiritual Assembly here for the first time. People make comments indicating that their quality of life has improved. For example, a wife says her husband is nicer to her and their marriage is working better now, attributing it to the study circle even though there is so little about family relations in the whole series (so far, anyway). A daughter says she is getting along better with her family (again, totally tangential to the subjects studied, but she says it is a result!).
    I remember in the early 70s when Dr. Muhajir wanted us to form “cells” like the Communists in order to study together. Maybe this would have worked better if there had been a workbook series, committees to track stepwise progress, and other backstopping / accountability structures and mechanisms. Perhaps the whole world would be using the workbook series developed in some other country if it had been supported / pushed this way!

    No worse than the “read some books” system, which kept most of us ignorant and a lot of people leaving the Faith without ever finding out much about it. So many countries got up to about 10 thousand declared Bahá’ís and then stagnated there, with hundreds of “paper Assemblies” elected by one vote dictated at Ridván to a traveling teacher but never to meet or act again – till next Ridván’s “election”.
    Of course the idea that anything but the Ruhi Institute Process is wrong, a waste of time, an obstacle to progress, is abhorrent. But we can’t discard a pretty good system just because there are some squares involved!
    There is a saying in “the ed. biz” that you can’t teach what you know – only what you are. Another example from Colombia: the Tutorial Learning System (SAT), created by much the same bunch of Bahá’ís and committed, creative friends of Bahá’ís. The whole idea was to create livelihoods for peasants, giving them the ability to create their own modus vivendi, rather than being squeezed into exploitation as cheap labor. We have met dozens of people who have come out of this process in Colombia, and they all just wish someone would give them a job…
    Similarly, until we learn not to be bossy, dogmatic lovers of adulation and easy answers, some of the drawbacks we see in the “Institute Process” are actually just the fruits of who we are starting out as.

  • Amado

    This wondering whether Ruhi works here in South American cultures is an important question – let’s see if I can give a useful answer.
    I kind of like the Ruhi materials – but I have seen them used in ways that I don’t like.
    I remember the air of arcane arrogance with which my Bahá’í brothers and sisters would refer to “the Institute process”at first when they didn’t have a clear idea what was going on, either, but really wanted the rest of us to think that they did.
    I remember the young lady who came to tell us just how we had to do our junior-youth groups, because that was the way to do JY groups – who was appalled when we tried to explain to her that our situation was different than the one she was describing, and thanks for the advice, but we can’t do it that way…
    I remember myself – as a “good Bahá’í”, trying to work for unity, feeling very troubled when my friend told me that (in an Asian, mostly Muslim country) they had to “adapt” the Ruhi materials.
    And I have seen the tutors, “trained” to ensure quality and consistency, stubbornly insist that the answer is this and not that.

    But I also remember when our friends in Colombia began developing these materials, starting with some little booklets with suggestions on doing children’s classes, with coloring, singing, playing (non-competitive) games – nice! And I have therefore seen this as a stage in evolution, and not something we are stuck with.
    Partly so people will not have the typical first reaction (these materials are offensively simplistic, pointless, with no relation to practical life) I have always started out by saying, “We have a religion without a clergy, and are still trying to figure out how to do that. We have tried different kinds of ‘deepening’, different study guides and children’s class materials, courses and so on. This is one of the most recent tries at finding a way to run a religion in which each of us is responsible for knowing what to do!”
    Then we emphasize that Book 1 starts with a three-step process: the too-simple parroting of the quote, the not-so-easy giving of examples of what that means – and the pretty-hard design of ways to put that idea into practice in our own lives. So, we proceed much as in “values clarification” (most of our study-circle members are not Bahá’ís) emphasizing that we all believe pretty much the same things, and the world will be better when we find more ways to put what-we-all-believe into practice!
    Every time we find a question that might have different answers, we work hard to elicit diversity in the answers, and get people explaining why it might be this or it might be that – rather than saying “just put X” as if filling in the spaces in a book would change the world…

    And the results seem reasonably satisfying: everyone in the circle gives some thought to “spiritual things”, about 10-15% become Bahá’ís and most of them continue meeting to study. There is a Local Spiritual Assembly here for the first time. People make comments indicating that their quality of life has improved. For example, a wife says her husband is nicer to her and their marriage is working better now, attributing it to the study circle even though there is so little about family relations in the whole series (so far, anyway). A daughter says she is getting along better with her family (again, totally tangential to the subjects studied, but she says it is a result!).
    I remember in the early 70s when Dr. Muhajir wanted us to form “cells” like the Communists in order to study together. Maybe this would have worked better if there had been a workbook series, committees to track stepwise progress, and other backstopping / accountability structures and mechanisms. Perhaps the whole world would be using the workbook series developed in some other country if it had been supported / pushed this way!

    No worse than the “read some books” system, which kept most of us ignorant and a lot of people leaving the Faith without ever finding out much about it. So many countries got up to about 10 thousand declared Bahá’ís and then stagnated there, with hundreds of “paper Assemblies” elected by one vote dictated at Ridván to a traveling teacher but never to meet or act again – till next Ridván’s “election”.
    Of course the idea that anything but the Ruhi Institute Process is wrong, a waste of time, an obstacle to progress, is abhorrent. But we can’t discard a pretty good system just because there are some squares involved!
    There is a saying in “the ed. biz” that you can’t teach what you know – only what you are. Another example from Colombia: the Tutorial Learning System (SAT), created by much the same bunch of Bahá’ís and committed, creative friends of Bahá’ís. The whole idea was to create livelihoods for peasants, giving them the ability to create their own modus vivendi, rather than being squeezed into exploitation as cheap labor. We have met dozens of people who have come out of this process in Colombia, and they all just wish someone would give them a job…
    Similarly, until we learn not to be bossy, dogmatic lovers of adulation and easy answers, some of the drawbacks we see in the “Institute Process” are actually just the fruits of who we are starting out as.

  • farhan

    Amado wrote: you can’t teach what you know – only what you are

    Yes Amado, I agree with you; I have seen everything you describe and even worse. These are mistakes from people who would have been completely inactive without the institute. We sometimes have fun laughing at postings with examples mistakes students and even teachers make in their school work; this doesn't mean we have to close down schools, but proves how badly we need them.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/farhan farhan

    Amado wrote: you can’t teach what you know – only what you are

    Yes Amado, I agree with you; I have seen everything you describe and even worse. These are mistakes from people who would have been completely inactive without the institute. We sometimes have fun laughing at postings with examples mistakes students and even teachers make in their school work; this doesn't mean we have to close down schools, but proves how badly we need them.

  • winterbv

    When do we start handing out those drugs (and what are those drugs so we can start the movement now)? Is Walmart selling those implants? It seems like the best idea I've heard in years.

  • James

    There is a big misconception that “mass conversions” and “entry by troops” are the same thing.

    When the teachings of Baha'u'llah result in the nurturing of the spirits of the community, this improves life. This is Ruhi.

    I've seen in my own community in New Jersey, as well as in the neighboring New York City community, in the last two years, the positive affects of Ruhi bringing people together. Some people become lovers of Baha'u'llah, some people don't. But in general, the teachings of Baha'u'llah do touch people and help improve their spiritual lives. And this is the goal.

    The Faith is about unification. It's about love. It's not about conversion.

    O SON OF MAN!
    Thou dost wish for gold and I desire thy freedom from it. Thou thinkest thyself rich in its possession, and I recognize thy wealth in thy sanctity therefrom. By My life! This is My knowledge, and that is thy fancy; how can My way accord with thine?

  • Baquia

    According to this recent article, the Baha'i community of Colombia is 32,000 strong. If we estimate the population to appx. 46 million (last census was in 2008 showing 44.5 million) then this is about 0.07% of the population.

    So there is one small evidence of the efficacy – or rather, lack thereof – of Ruhi.

    Thanks to Sen for finding the article and sharing it on Talisman!

  • http://www.sonjavank.blogspot.com sonjavank

    Here's a recent blog written by “Liberal Bahai” on the topic of Ruhi, he writes…
    “Ruhi is good for rote learning and memorization. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing…. The problem with Ruhi is that a lot of people take it too seriously and view it like it is some kind of talisman or spell book that if memorized, will open the doors to endless understanding. Some communites and Bahais try to use Ruhi like an all-purpose magic formula, and that’s what causes all of the bitterness and problems. There is nothing wrong with rote learning and memorization, so long as there are other avenues of expression within a community. There has to be intellectual freedom, the right to question, ponder and acquire individual interpretations to what one has memorized or learned. This is part of the process of internalizing a concept. Memorization alone will not do that. It will just allow a person to parrot what they have heard or read….”

    http://liberalbahai.wordpress.com/2010/04/05/th

  • Baquia

    Thanks Sonja – interesting blog.

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  • Zureick1

    The culture of Iran is remarkably similar to the culture of Columbia? That’s where I stopped reading. I’m sure there is some aspect of those cultures you think is similar but, good God, really? That has to be one of the grossest over-generalizations I have have ever heard.

  • Baquia

    Zureick, Iran, like Columbia has high PDI and UAI and low IDV.

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