Craig, We lack data to confirm what you say, but let us admit that the Baha’is were behind others, we must realise that those who _become_ Baha’is, and they are usually more numerous than those born into Baha’i families, become Baha’is because they are attracted by those luminous principles we almost all adhere to on this blog.

Where differences arise, is in the path we want to follow towards that ideal. and the point brought up by Bird is very valid to me, if we all very badly want peace and unity, which is the path we can take and how can we invite the masses of humanity into joining hands with us?

When I see the democratic process in the US, between a couloured man and a woman, I am proud to see youthful dreams, in the mids of the Vietnam war, clasping hands and singing with Joan Baez “we shall overcome some day” is coming true.

I cannot imagine that the message of the Bab and Baha’u'llah and the wide scattering of the seeds by Abdu’l-Baha were not involved in this change.

But as we stand, with all this love and emotion, the next step is to see how can we give a structure and form to this outburst of love. Here is where Bird’s question comes in: how can we build a new structure that formalises this change? From what I gather, the nexts step is to organise a structure taking roots in the soil of pure hearts, at grass roots. Here is in my view where the institute process comes in.

Craig wrote:
“As I said, I am growing fond of you. Your sincerity and ernestness is honest. But as you know from my posts, I disagree with this view point.”

Craig the feeling is mutual, and believe it or not, on this blog I have met deep love for God and His creation, a love much deeper than the luke-warm love one sometimes sees exhibited by bigotted self-lovers we all suffer from.

I had deep feelings of gratitude on the 6th of June, anniversary of the sacrifices of the allies on the beaches Normandy, for the ideas you defend, but I had no internet access on that day;

warmest

Farhan

Craig, We lack data to confirm what you say, but let us admit that the Baha’is were behind others, we must realise that those who _become_ Baha’is, and they are usually more numerous than those born into Baha’i families, become Baha’is because they are attracted by those luminous principles we almost all adhere to on this blog.

Where differences arise, is in the path we want to follow towards that ideal. and the point brought up by Bird is very valid to me, if we all very badly want peace and unity, which is the path we can take and how can we invite the masses of humanity into joining hands with us?

When I see the democratic process in the US, between a couloured man and a woman, I am proud to see youthful dreams, in the mids of the Vietnam war, clasping hands and singing with Joan Baez “we shall overcome some day” is coming true.

I cannot imagine that the message of the Bab and Baha’u'llah and the wide scattering of the seeds by Abdu’l-Baha were not involved in this change.

But as we stand, with all this love and emotion, the next step is to see how can we give a structure and form to this outburst of love. Here is where Bird’s question comes in: how can we build a new structure that formalises this change? From what I gather, the nexts step is to organise a structure taking roots in the soil of pure hearts, at grass roots. Here is in my view where the institute process comes in.

Craig wrote:
“As I said, I am growing fond of you. Your sincerity and ernestness is honest. But as you know from my posts, I disagree with this view point.”

Craig the feeling is mutual, and believe it or not, on this blog I have met deep love for God and His creation, a love much deeper than the luke-warm love one sometimes sees exhibited by bigotted self-lovers we all suffer from.

I had deep feelings of gratitude on the 6th of June, anniversary of the sacrifices of the allies on the beaches Normandy, for the ideas you defend, but I had no internet access on that day;

warmest

Farhan

“Bloggers:
Do you think it is possible for anyone of us to effect change in the Bahai community? If so how?”

Yes, Bird, we can, but it is a slow process, it takes generations; we need patience and fore bearance, but this does not mean that we should stop our efforts. We can planttrees without expecting to taste the fruits ourselves.

Change is a painfull process; Only love and example can help people change; criticisme, harsh words, and violence entrench people in their routine behaviours. All change is perceived as a cultural shock, it requires the dismanteling of a mental structure and the elaboration of a new one.[/quote]

Farhan,

As I said, I am growing fond of you. Your sincerity and ernestness is honest. But as you know from my posts, I disagree with this view point.

This is the completely counter-productive total disconnect YEAR ZERO MENTALITY that has kept the Baha’i Faith from connecting with the real issues in the world except for during the 1960′s and 1970′s when even the hermeticly sealed passive-aggressive “Baha’i Faith organization” could not escape the vital social activitism in the streets.

This mentality that the Baha’is are some kind of “Baha’i World Miss Manners” agency responsible for completely changing society and human nature has been and will continue to be completely fatal for the Baha’i Faith.

The whole mentality of marching everyone into the jungle/concentration camp/gulag of one kind or another to change their thinking has been tried by Pol Pot, Hitler, and Stalin and many lessor others on various scales. It is, well, oh so 20th Century now in thinking. It has been tried over and over ending in total catastrophe for millions of human beings. It has been done.

If you want to change the world, GET CONNECTED TO WHAT IS GOING ON.

The Baha’is don’t need to try to “change” or “transform” anyone. That whole mentality is bunk and has caused the Faith to lose opportunity after opportunity. The whole Ruhi mechanical automaton paint-by-numbers mentality is now the final, dismal, barren and fruitless wretchedness of this hapless micro managed groupthink control freak approach to everything.

The simple fact is that society worldwide IS changing much, much faster than the Baha’is toward the world brought by Baha’u'llah going through that spiritual portal in the 19th Century. (Yes- I am a Shirley MacLaine Baha’i and proud of it.)

The VERY LAST people on Earth to implement that sublime spiritual power now is the “Baha’i organization” itself! What an irony!

So please do not quote Peter Khan on ANY topic on this site for ANY reason as a kindness to our spirits. The man is the very embodyment of the very things he speaks against about in his pontifications about the changes the Baha’i Faith must make in everybody and everything in the world. In your quote he states that it will take centuries for the apparently poor, poor hapless, corrupted Baha’is to not sit passively before self appointed leaders who explain to them what the words mean, when THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE HIMSELF DOES! He, himslef, is the GREAT ALL HIGHEST EXPLAINER in the BAha’i Faith today! So pleeeaaaassse spare us from his endless, endless, endless words on EVERY TOPIC under the Sun in the known and unknown Universe as he travels the world on everyone’s money.

But thanks for meaning well. I do appreciate your effort.

“Bloggers:
Do you think it is possible for anyone of us to effect change in the Bahai community? If so how?”

Yes, Bird, we can, but it is a slow process, it takes generations; we need patience and fore bearance, but this does not mean that we should stop our efforts. We can planttrees without expecting to taste the fruits ourselves.

Change is a painfull process; Only love and example can help people change; criticisme, harsh words, and violence entrench people in their routine behaviours. All change is perceived as a cultural shock, it requires the dismanteling of a mental structure and the elaboration of a new one.[/quote]

Farhan,

As I said, I am growing fond of you. Your sincerity and ernestness is honest. But as you know from my posts, I disagree with this view point.

This is the completely counter-productive total disconnect YEAR ZERO MENTALITY that has kept the Baha’i Faith from connecting with the real issues in the world except for during the 1960′s and 1970′s when even the hermeticly sealed passive-aggressive “Baha’i Faith organization” could not escape the vital social activitism in the streets.

This mentality that the Baha’is are some kind of “Baha’i World Miss Manners” agency responsible for completely changing society and human nature has been and will continue to be completely fatal for the Baha’i Faith.

The whole mentality of marching everyone into the jungle/concentration camp/gulag of one kind or another to change their thinking has been tried by Pol Pot, Hitler, and Stalin and many lessor others on various scales. It is, well, oh so 20th Century now in thinking. It has been tried over and over ending in total catastrophe for millions of human beings. It has been done.

If you want to change the world, GET CONNECTED TO WHAT IS GOING ON.

The Baha’is don’t need to try to “change” or “transform” anyone. That whole mentality is bunk and has caused the Faith to lose opportunity after opportunity. The whole Ruhi mechanical automaton paint-by-numbers mentality is now the final, dismal, barren and fruitless wretchedness of this hapless micro managed groupthink control freak approach to everything.

The simple fact is that society worldwide IS changing much, much faster than the Baha’is toward the world brought by Baha’u'llah going through that spiritual portal in the 19th Century. (Yes- I am a Shirley MacLaine Baha’i and proud of it.)

The VERY LAST people on Earth to implement that sublime spiritual power now is the “Baha’i organization” itself! What an irony!

So please do not quote Peter Khan on ANY topic on this site for ANY reason as a kindness to our spirits. The man is the very embodyment of the very things he speaks against about in his pontifications about the changes the Baha’i Faith must make in everybody and everything in the world. In your quote he states that it will take centuries for the apparently poor, poor hapless, corrupted Baha’is to not sit passively before self appointed leaders who explain to them what the words mean, when THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE HIMSELF DOES! He, himslef, is the GREAT ALL HIGHEST EXPLAINER in the BAha’i Faith today! So pleeeaaaassse spare us from his endless, endless, endless words on EVERY TOPIC under the Sun in the known and unknown Universe as he travels the world on everyone’s money.

But thanks for meaning well. I do appreciate your effort.

I agree, Concourse; there is a gross exaggeration amongst Baha’is from Eastern origin, terrorized by the pulsions they discover in themselves facing a liberty they have not been accustomed to, and who need to repell, and who need to “immunize” themselves from the mermaid’s songs.

In fact the West has been greatly praised by Abdu’l-Baha who mused how the faith would ahve been developped, had the ùmessage of Baha’u'llah appeared in the West: a quote I cannot find right now.

The Mufti of Australia actually replied to a query about assault by saying it was the women’s fault: if you leave meat lying around, you should not be surprised about dogs getting at it. Sad vision of men as dogs and women as meat.

As we have already said, Baha’u'llah arose in the East, not because Westerners were not as deserving, but because Easterners needed His message most.

Bird wrote:

“Bloggers:
Do you think it is possible for anyone of us to effect change in the Bahai community? If so how?”

Yes, Bird, we can, but it is a slow process, it takes generations; we need patience and fore bearance, but this does not mean that we should stop our efforts. We can planttrees without expecting to taste the fruits ourselves.

Change is a painfull process; Only love and example can help people change; criticisme, harsh words, and violence entrench people in their routine behaviours. All change is perceived as a cultural shock, it requires the dismanteling of a mental structure and the elaboration of a new one.

Baquia wrote:

“Farhan, although I do agree with you regarding the benefit of the elimination of a “top down” structure, there is no evidence that this is currently being implemented in the Baha’i administration. In fact, we have ample evidence of exactly the opposite.”

Baquia, it will take some generations before we can reverse what has been practiced for centuries. I entirely agree with the view expresed by Peter Khan in Toronto, 2nd August 2006:

“The core activities, as I see it, have a certain basic significance. There are, I believe, two or three points. The first is that it is a vehicle to avoid the dichotomy of the active leader with a passive congregation that follows him. That problem has never been solved in religious history. Every religion that we know about has either started off or after a fairly short time settled down into the active leader, who is on the edge of a nervous breakdown because he is so busy, and the passive congregation that is expected just to sit there and do what it’s told. Bahá’u’lláh has broken that dichotomy down to create an active participating community of believers from which administrators are elected or appointed for limited periods. We have a lot of work to do to break down this tendency of Bahá’í communities to fall into that pattern of super-active individuals who either are exalted or who exalt themselves, and the passive rest of us who do what we’re told and try not to make too much trouble. We have to break that down as our teachings tell us it is not the right pattern. We have a lot of work to do to absorb it within our bones, to make it an integral part of our functioning; it will take generations to do that. Our core activities rest upon the fact that we do not have any leader or guru who tells us what the words mean, but rather we rely on the power of consultation and understanding in order to develop a deeper vision of what the Creative Word is about. This is quite different from the elected Assemblies with their decision-making powers in the realm of action, and the appointed Counsellors and their helpers to provide advice, encouragement and counsel.

I agree, Concourse; there is a gross exaggeration amongst Baha’is from Eastern origin, terrorized by the pulsions they discover in themselves facing a liberty they have not been accustomed to, and who need to repell, and who need to “immunize” themselves from the mermaid’s songs.

In fact the West has been greatly praised by Abdu’l-Baha who mused how the faith would ahve been developped, had the ùmessage of Baha’u'llah appeared in the West: a quote I cannot find right now.

The Mufti of Australia actually replied to a query about assault by saying it was the women’s fault: if you leave meat lying around, you should not be surprised about dogs getting at it. Sad vision of men as dogs and women as meat.

As we have already said, Baha’u'llah arose in the East, not because Westerners were not as deserving, but because Easterners needed His message most.

Bird wrote:

“Bloggers:
Do you think it is possible for anyone of us to effect change in the Bahai community? If so how?”

Yes, Bird, we can, but it is a slow process, it takes generations; we need patience and fore bearance, but this does not mean that we should stop our efforts. We can planttrees without expecting to taste the fruits ourselves.

Change is a painfull process; Only love and example can help people change; criticisme, harsh words, and violence entrench people in their routine behaviours. All change is perceived as a cultural shock, it requires the dismanteling of a mental structure and the elaboration of a new one.

Baquia wrote:

“Farhan, although I do agree with you regarding the benefit of the elimination of a “top down” structure, there is no evidence that this is currently being implemented in the Baha’i administration. In fact, we have ample evidence of exactly the opposite.”

Baquia, it will take some generations before we can reverse what has been practiced for centuries. I entirely agree with the view expresed by Peter Khan in Toronto, 2nd August 2006:

“The core activities, as I see it, have a certain basic significance. There are, I believe, two or three points. The first is that it is a vehicle to avoid the dichotomy of the active leader with a passive congregation that follows him. That problem has never been solved in religious history. Every religion that we know about has either started off or after a fairly short time settled down into the active leader, who is on the edge of a nervous breakdown because he is so busy, and the passive congregation that is expected just to sit there and do what it’s told. Bahá’u’lláh has broken that dichotomy down to create an active participating community of believers from which administrators are elected or appointed for limited periods. We have a lot of work to do to break down this tendency of Bahá’í communities to fall into that pattern of super-active individuals who either are exalted or who exalt themselves, and the passive rest of us who do what we’re told and try not to make too much trouble. We have to break that down as our teachings tell us it is not the right pattern. We have a lot of work to do to absorb it within our bones, to make it an integral part of our functioning; it will take generations to do that. Our core activities rest upon the fact that we do not have any leader or guru who tells us what the words mean, but rather we rely on the power of consultation and understanding in order to develop a deeper vision of what the Creative Word is about. This is quite different from the elected Assemblies with their decision-making powers in the realm of action, and the appointed Counsellors and their helpers to provide advice, encouragement and counsel.