Why Are We Here?

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If you ask a Baha’i, ‘Why are we here?’ you will prabably hear that humanity’s purpose is to know God and to worship God.

But what if you ask this of an atheist? Here is one famous atheist’s attempt to answer this ultimate question:

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  • http://kaweah.com/blog/ Dan Jensen

    Hmmm. So … just what is the meaning that we have found within ourselves? I keep seeing that auto assembly line. Is that what we’re after? No, it’s astronomy. That’s the thing.

    Why is natural selection always depicted as a survival drama? Isn’t it also a drama of extinction? What makes an extant species more “successful” than an extinct species? Could it be that we’re reading too much into the science?

  • http://kaweah.com/blog/ Dan Jensen

    Hmmm. So … just what is the meaning that we have found within ourselves? I keep seeing that auto assembly line. Is that what we’re after? No, it’s astronomy. That’s the thing.

    Why is natural selection always depicted as a survival drama? Isn’t it also a drama of extinction? What makes an extant species more “successful” than an extinct species? Could it be that we’re reading too much into the science?

  • anne greene

    Finally, Richard Dawkins on a Baha’i blog! Thank you! When we will realize just how destructive religions have been to the human species and when we add this monotheistic unresponsive god to the discards already on the pile of the past gods? Then and only then can we deal with each other on an equal basis of human to human and address the needs of individuals and communities–whether local or global–making decisions for the benefit of all rather than “us” vs “them”.

  • anne greene

    Finally, Richard Dawkins on a Baha’i blog! Thank you! When we will realize just how destructive religions have been to the human species and when we add this monotheistic unresponsive god to the discards already on the pile of the past gods? Then and only then can we deal with each other on an equal basis of human to human and address the needs of individuals and communities–whether local or global–making decisions for the benefit of all rather than “us” vs “them”.

  • Alex Kavetsky

    Science is wonderful. It’s always good to know more about mechanisms – it sure saves a lot of superstition!

    Richard Dawkins’ account is optimistic enough in its own way. But somehow I do not buy the argument that all this “just happened”. Maybe the science of the future will be able to think in the other categories needed to shed more light on what we really are.

    On the problem of morality, Darwin wrote: “I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton. Let each man hope and believe what he can.” It is usually the case that the greats of the scientific world were truely humble, because they understood how little they really knew.

    For an interesting critique of present-day “scientism” I recommend “Understanding the Present” by Bryan Appleyard.

  • Alex Kavetsky

    Science is wonderful. It’s always good to know more about mechanisms – it sure saves a lot of superstition!

    Richard Dawkins’ account is optimistic enough in its own way. But somehow I do not buy the argument that all this “just happened”. Maybe the science of the future will be able to think in the other categories needed to shed more light on what we really are.

    On the problem of morality, Darwin wrote: “I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton. Let each man hope and believe what he can.” It is usually the case that the greats of the scientific world were truely humble, because they understood how little they really knew.

    For an interesting critique of present-day “scientism” I recommend “Understanding the Present” by Bryan Appleyard.

  • Faraz

    the moment humanity made the move to abandon the multitude of imperfect almost human like gods, we created a paradigm that will haunt us forever. it is this infallible unmistakable perfect figure that gives today’s religion the absolute power to say there is one way our way and if abandon it you will be put to death( Muslim style) or go to hell. I grew up as a Baha’i in Iran surrounded by Muslims, so you can say I know plenty how bad religion can get and how disgusting the ones who use it for power are.

  • Faraz

    on another note I read almost all of “Ighan” and “Aghdas”, they are all just a more complicated way , but the same style of fallacy ridden logic of the judeo-Christian religions, so those who scream “I believe” are just showing their lack of tolerance for a universe full of unanswered questions and prefer incomplete or wrong ones. What is wrong with saying I don’t know lets find out!?

  • Craig Parke

    There is only one growing transcendent joyful World Religion right now on this planet and that is Rock and Roll. The people who are doing the real heavy lifting work of the New World Age at this time are the men and women who are the software engineers of the Earth. They are the true revolutionaries. Everyone outside of these two worlds will be taken along in the flowing Cosmic energies regardless of anything else. Lead. Follow. Or get out of the way.

    As you say, the Abrahamic religions are ALL indeed absolutely finished in a MASSIVE MAJOR FAIL for everyone on Earth to witness. GAME OVER.

    Spiritually searching and thinking advanced souls worldwide will no longer accept top down group think from self styled hack clergy in any system.

    The elites of Egyptian society did not establish Term Limits for 30 years and so their society is now reaping the profound results in the streets of their nation. The Baha’i Administrative Order could not establish Term Limits. It was a horrible, horrible tragedy, but it is what happened. For this everything will come to naught.

    But everyone else on Earth with REAL talent will move on preaching the energies of the New World Age in the arts and sciences.

    Blessings to you, Sir!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zydAs5bRW1U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkvG9j7g7rg

  • Taylorlornebritton

    I used to be bahai until i could no longer reconcile its mass of contradictions with my sense of justice and reason.

    1 the bahai faith promotes its own brand of creationism. while proposing that religion should be in harmony its followers accept more about the facts of evolution than most other theists but they believe that “god” is the force of evolution itself. that god created the “forces” of nature with the foresight that things would turn out the way they are now. this strongly contractions the foundation of evolution which is natural selection. if you want to learn why then you should listen to dawkings and his contemporaries with open minds. for example: god did not create or is not the himself the force of gravity. gravity is generated by the very matter it manipulates. if there was no matter gravity would not just be waiting in a vacuum for matter to show up. the same in true with all natural forces especially evolution

    2 the bahai faith teaches that men, women, races are equal yet woman are not allowed on the UHJ.

    3 bahais teach that every believer should “investigate their own truth” learn and challenge everything. but if you question or challenge the “infallible” words of its key figures you are branded a covenant breaker and even your own bahai family shuns you

    4 more on people are equal. the bahai faith teaches that homosexuality is wrong even though this isn’t in any of the core books. the books say that pedophilia is wrong and only uses the terms man and women when it talks about marriage but it never states anything specifically about being gay. it was only shoghi effendi who mentioned homosexuality by name in a few prejudice letters yet few bahais ever challenge what he said cause they fear excommunication and offending the Persian bahai’s who are alive and knew the guy

    5 all they say about non violence yet they exploit the “miracles” of their violent history (like the babi mulla cutting through the tree and the spear and the man etc.

    6 they say that nature is great and should be protected yet any faith that says that humans are divinely designed and are destined to rule the world will tolerate us prioritizing our human expansion over the survival of endangered species and ecosystems. 

    7 they say that mirza husayn ali was a messenger of god and that he is just the most recent in a line of messengers that were leading to him and prophesying his coming. and that religion is progressive and its messages change with time. yet if you study other religions without looking through the lens of the bahai faith you see that things don’t fit at all. buddhism, hinduism etc are apparently monotheistic through the bahai lens. the teachings of other prophets were appropriate for their own times but not now so apperently at one time it was a good thing to stone your disobedient children, vale woman, not eat certain things or you’ll go to hell. oh yeah and the existence of hells and limbos.

    and i’ll end my list with the holy number 9: mirza husayn ali was infallible and somehow didn’t foresee or just didn’t care to mention the answers to the moral issues of just a hundred and so years later, stem-cells, cloning, gay rights, gay marriage etc. he said that religion is progressive and his own rules would be obsolete in time but said that the next guy will come in a 1000 years (881 years to go) and will unite the stars bla bla bla. so we have to oppress gay people for over eight hundred more years, keep woman off the most important governing body (if entry by troops happened and “god forbid” bahais were put in charge)

    i’ve seen bahais join their local police force and support robert mugabe because they are taught to support and not oppose the rules of teh government where they live. I’ve seen bahais invite their gay neighbors into their homes only to talk about them when they leave about how sad it is that they are raising a child in their morally corrupted marriage. i’ve seen bahais take millions of dollars from there believer to support unsustainable self indulgent protects.  i’ve gone to haifa and seen children being indoctrinated, the gates open to mirza’s grave sight like i was entering Jurassic park in a manor designed to force the feeling of reverence and spiritual power into the people who are walking like lemmings in a line all doubting why they are there but asked to stay respectfully silent so the false feeling of holiness spreads through the masses cause everybody is competing to have the most enlightening and inspiring experiences. they removed our chair to “make room in the rows for people to get through” so we were forced to stand while i was greeted by the UHJ further imposing a false feeling of superiority and reverence. finnally i was shown the picture of mirza (something i could have seen on wikipedia) and saw he was just a man and then was shown his infallible hand writing (more haphazard then my own) and saw that he was just a megalomaniac man man who couldn’t even reconcile with his own brother (the real reason he was exiled and imprisoned that he was making the ottomans upset by the internal violence in his own family not cause of his teachings)

    sure the bahai faith is better than most religions. but it is still a faith. the crazy belief in dangerous ideas without proof and somehow feeling that the concept is virtuous. it will always be more trouble then its worth because unlike science or philosophy it claims it is absolutely true and therefore will attract extremest and corrupted mortal humans who want to use the shield of someone else’s claimed infallibility for their own unquestioned financial and influential gain. if every bahai converted into moral atheists the world would be a much better place

  • heresthetruth

    on yeah i forgot my number 8. that mirza had many wives yet bahais condemn plural marriage…

  • Concourse on Low

    You’re the Khatami of the Baha’i Faith, Baquia.

    Yes, that’s an insult.

  • Baquia

    Taylor, if you allow me I’d like to address the points which you bring up. This intended as clarify them for others and yourself, not to convince you to return to the Baha’i Faith necessarily. You are, of course, free to decide your own spiritual path (or lack thereof, as it were). Since I’ve also grappled with many of the points you raised already, instead of entering into a lengthy discussion here, I’ll instead point you to the relevant blog post.

    1 the Baha’i Faith acknowledges evolution. Like many other theists Baha’is believe that God is the creator that set in motion the reality that we experience. Atheists disagree with this of course but I fail to see an inherent contradiction within the Baha’i theology.

    2 women on the UHJ: for more please see
    “Women’s Service on the Universal House of Justice”

    3 no Baha’i will be branded a CB if they question their own Faith. It happens all the time within feasts, gatherings and other interactions such as letters sent to the ITC/UHJ, etc. The 15th month of the Baha’i calendar is “Questions” and as such they are valuable.

    To become a CB one has to directly oppose and/or attack the Baha’i Faith, its central figures and/or institutions. This is not a light distinction and therefore, there are only a handful of CB’s around today.

    4 re homosexuality, please see this: “Baha’u'llah and the Subject of Boys”. There is a rich discussion of this also in the comments section as well as in other blogs and sites linked to there.

    the Baha’i Faith does not endorse persecution of homosexuals as you seem to imply in your message.

    5 Baha’is do not celebrate but commemorate and honor the history of the Babi Faith which included many violent clashes. It is important to distinguish that in each and every case, the Babis were engaging with a vicious enemy hellbent on their annihilation and only did so as a final last resort to defend themselves. Babis were not engaging in “holy war” to force others to become aligned with them or to convert them.

    The Bab wrote:

    “It is better to guide one soul than to possess all that is on earth, for as long as that guided soul is under the shadow of the Tree of Divine Unity, he and the one who hath guided him will both be recipients of God’s tender mercy, whereas possession of earthly things will cease at the time of death. The path to guidance is one of love and compassion, not of force and coercion. This hath been God’s method in the past, and shall continue to be in the future. He causeth him whom He pleaseth to enter the shadow of His Mercy.”"

    And likewise Baha’u'llah wrote:

    “Beware lest ye shed the blood of any one. Unsheathe the sword of your
    tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the
    citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war
    against each other. God’s mercy hath, verily, encompassed all created
    things, if ye do but understand.”

    From: “We have annulled the rule of the sword”

    After Baha’u'llah’s injunction, Baha’is were further restricted to refrain from violence even if it meant foregoing self-defense. And so, many Baha’is were killed and are continuing to be persecuted and killed even now in Iran.

    6 re nature and the environment. The Baha’i Faith believes that the ecosystem is yet another manifestation of God as Baha’u'llah wrote:

    “Nature in its essence is the embodiment of My Name,
    the Maker, the Creator. Its manifestations are diversified by varying causes,
    and in this diversity there are signs for men of discernment. Nature is God’s
    Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world.”

    As such the Baha’i Faith believes in a holistic approach which integrates man within its environment and recognizes the reciprocal affect that one has on the other. The Baha’is are active within international organizations such as the UN to bring attention to the importance of environmental protection and the preservation of our natural heritage. This is world’s away from a theology that puts man on top of nature and expects one to exploit the other.

    7 there are two aspects to each religion, the spiritual teachings and the social laws. One is unchanging and unfolding while the other is dynamic and contingent on the exigencies of the specific time.

    8 Baha’u'llah had many wives but Baha’is do not practice polygamy. For more, please see this: It’s a little known fact [4]

    9 the Baha’i Faith was not brought to the world to institute a theocracy and as such the ‘answers’ it offers are spiritual in nature. Baha’is believe that important decisions can be made by the appropriate secular and scientific institutions without the need for the intervention of God or religious institutions in the minutia of life.

    Having said that, for the Baha’i community and the world, Baha’u'llah created the institution of the Universal House of Justice which among other responsibilities is entrusted with the role of providing guidance, if it is asked. And they have provided it on several issues such as peace, the environment, the equality of women, etc. You can read some of these statements here.

  • DoubtingPatrick

    A bahai could be branded a CB if they questioned Shogi’s right to interpret teachings and the vitality of his will. like ruth white

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_White_(Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_author)

    someone could be compelled to ask such questions if they believed in the infallibility of the original writings but though that shogi’s prejudice letters on homosexuality meant that he wasn’t suited to interpret teachings and therefore might not have legitimately been appointed. 

  • Anonymous

    If there’s something specific which you disagree with or know to be wrong in my reply, please let me know.

  • Baquia

    Of course. As I wrote above if you attack the central figures then yes, you’ll be declared a CB.

  • Concourse on Low

    It’s the spirit of the reply, Baquia.

    Like Khatami, you refuse to acknowledge that the system is irreformable and that its worst features are not the result of bad leaders but systemic flaws.

  • Concourse on Low

    What constitutes an “attack”? Is subjecting the claims of Baha’u'llah to critical scrutiny an “attack”?