Why Are We Here?

If you ask a Baha’i, ‘Why are we here?’ you will prabably hear that humanity’s purpose is to know God and to worship God.

But what if you ask this of an atheist? Here is one famous atheist’s attempt to answer this ultimate question:

  • http://kaweah.com/blog/ Dan Jensen

    Hmmm. So … just what is the meaning that we have found within ourselves? I keep seeing that auto assembly line. Is that what we’re after? No, it’s astronomy. That’s the thing.

    Why is natural selection always depicted as a survival drama? Isn’t it also a drama of extinction? What makes an extant species more “successful” than an extinct species? Could it be that we’re reading too much into the science?

  • http://kaweah.com/blog/ Dan Jensen

    Hmmm. So … just what is the meaning that we have found within ourselves? I keep seeing that auto assembly line. Is that what we’re after? No, it’s astronomy. That’s the thing.

    Why is natural selection always depicted as a survival drama? Isn’t it also a drama of extinction? What makes an extant species more “successful” than an extinct species? Could it be that we’re reading too much into the science?

  • anne greene

    Finally, Richard Dawkins on a Baha’i blog! Thank you! When we will realize just how destructive religions have been to the human species and when we add this monotheistic unresponsive god to the discards already on the pile of the past gods? Then and only then can we deal with each other on an equal basis of human to human and address the needs of individuals and communities–whether local or global–making decisions for the benefit of all rather than “us” vs “them”.

  • anne greene

    Finally, Richard Dawkins on a Baha’i blog! Thank you! When we will realize just how destructive religions have been to the human species and when we add this monotheistic unresponsive god to the discards already on the pile of the past gods? Then and only then can we deal with each other on an equal basis of human to human and address the needs of individuals and communities–whether local or global–making decisions for the benefit of all rather than “us” vs “them”.

  • Alex Kavetsky

    Science is wonderful. It’s always good to know more about mechanisms – it sure saves a lot of superstition!

    Richard Dawkins’ account is optimistic enough in its own way. But somehow I do not buy the argument that all this “just happened”. Maybe the science of the future will be able to think in the other categories needed to shed more light on what we really are.

    On the problem of morality, Darwin wrote: “I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton. Let each man hope and believe what he can.” It is usually the case that the greats of the scientific world were truely humble, because they understood how little they really knew.

    For an interesting critique of present-day “scientism” I recommend “Understanding the Present” by Bryan Appleyard.

  • Alex Kavetsky

    Science is wonderful. It’s always good to know more about mechanisms – it sure saves a lot of superstition!

    Richard Dawkins’ account is optimistic enough in its own way. But somehow I do not buy the argument that all this “just happened”. Maybe the science of the future will be able to think in the other categories needed to shed more light on what we really are.

    On the problem of morality, Darwin wrote: “I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for the human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton. Let each man hope and believe what he can.” It is usually the case that the greats of the scientific world were truely humble, because they understood how little they really knew.

    For an interesting critique of present-day “scientism” I recommend “Understanding the Present” by Bryan Appleyard.

  • Faraz

    the moment humanity made the move to abandon the multitude of imperfect almost human like gods, we created a paradigm that will haunt us forever. it is this infallible unmistakable perfect figure that gives today’s religion the absolute power to say there is one way our way and if abandon it you will be put to death( Muslim style) or go to hell. I grew up as a Baha’i in Iran surrounded by Muslims, so you can say I know plenty how bad religion can get and how disgusting the ones who use it for power are.

  • Faraz

    on another note I read almost all of “Ighan” and “Aghdas”, they are all just a more complicated way , but the same style of fallacy ridden logic of the judeo-Christian religions, so those who scream “I believe” are just showing their lack of tolerance for a universe full of unanswered questions and prefer incomplete or wrong ones. What is wrong with saying I don’t know lets find out!?

  • Craig Parke

    There is only one growing transcendent joyful World Religion right now on this planet and that is Rock and Roll. The people who are doing the real heavy lifting work of the New World Age at this time are the men and women who are the software engineers of the Earth. They are the true revolutionaries. Everyone outside of these two worlds will be taken along in the flowing Cosmic energies regardless of anything else. Lead. Follow. Or get out of the way.

    As you say, the Abrahamic religions are ALL indeed absolutely finished in a MASSIVE MAJOR FAIL for everyone on Earth to witness. GAME OVER.

    Spiritually searching and thinking advanced souls worldwide will no longer accept top down group think from self styled hack clergy in any system.

    The elites of Egyptian society did not establish Term Limits for 30 years and so their society is now reaping the profound results in the streets of their nation. The Baha’i Administrative Order could not establish Term Limits. It was a horrible, horrible tragedy, but it is what happened. For this everything will come to naught.

    But everyone else on Earth with REAL talent will move on preaching the energies of the New World Age in the arts and sciences.

    Blessings to you, Sir!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zydAs5bRW1U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkvG9j7g7rg

  • Taylorlornebritton

    I used to be bahai until i could no longer reconcile its mass of contradictions with my sense of justice and reason.

    1 the bahai faith promotes its own brand of creationism. while proposing that religion should be in harmony its followers accept more about the facts of evolution than most other theists but they believe that “god” is the force of evolution itself. that god created the “forces” of nature with the foresight that things would turn out the way they are now. this strongly contractions the foundation of evolution which is natural selection. if you want to learn why then you should listen to dawkings and his contemporaries with open minds. for example: god did not create or is not the himself the force of gravity. gravity is generated by the very matter it manipulates. if there was no matter gravity would not just be waiting in a vacuum for matter to show up. the same in true with all natural forces especially evolution

    2 the bahai faith teaches that men, women, races are equal yet woman are not allowed on the UHJ.

    3 bahais teach that every believer should “investigate their own truth” learn and challenge everything. but if you question or challenge the “infallible” words of its key figures you are branded a covenant breaker and even your own bahai family shuns you

    4 more on people are equal. the bahai faith teaches that homosexuality is wrong even though this isn’t in any of the core books. the books say that pedophilia is wrong and only uses the terms man and women when it talks about marriage but it never states anything specifically about being gay. it was only shoghi effendi who mentioned homosexuality by name in a few prejudice letters yet few bahais ever challenge what he said cause they fear excommunication and offending the Persian bahai’s who are alive and knew the guy

    5 all they say about non violence yet they exploit the “miracles” of their violent history (like the babi mulla cutting through the tree and the spear and the man etc.

    6 they say that nature is great and should be protected yet any faith that says that humans are divinely designed and are destined to rule the world will tolerate us prioritizing our human expansion over the survival of endangered species and ecosystems. 

    7 they say that mirza husayn ali was a messenger of god and that he is just the most recent in a line of messengers that were leading to him and prophesying his coming. and that religion is progressive and its messages change with time. yet if you study other religions without looking through the lens of the bahai faith you see that things don’t fit at all. buddhism, hinduism etc are apparently monotheistic through the bahai lens. the teachings of other prophets were appropriate for their own times but not now so apperently at one time it was a good thing to stone your disobedient children, vale woman, not eat certain things or you’ll go to hell. oh yeah and the existence of hells and limbos.

    and i’ll end my list with the holy number 9: mirza husayn ali was infallible and somehow didn’t foresee or just didn’t care to mention the answers to the moral issues of just a hundred and so years later, stem-cells, cloning, gay rights, gay marriage etc. he said that religion is progressive and his own rules would be obsolete in time but said that the next guy will come in a 1000 years (881 years to go) and will unite the stars bla bla bla. so we have to oppress gay people for over eight hundred more years, keep woman off the most important governing body (if entry by troops happened and “god forbid” bahais were put in charge)

    i’ve seen bahais join their local police force and support robert mugabe because they are taught to support and not oppose the rules of teh government where they live. I’ve seen bahais invite their gay neighbors into their homes only to talk about them when they leave about how sad it is that they are raising a child in their morally corrupted marriage. i’ve seen bahais take millions of dollars from there believer to support unsustainable self indulgent protects.  i’ve gone to haifa and seen children being indoctrinated, the gates open to mirza’s grave sight like i was entering Jurassic park in a manor designed to force the feeling of reverence and spiritual power into the people who are walking like lemmings in a line all doubting why they are there but asked to stay respectfully silent so the false feeling of holiness spreads through the masses cause everybody is competing to have the most enlightening and inspiring experiences. they removed our chair to “make room in the rows for people to get through” so we were forced to stand while i was greeted by the UHJ further imposing a false feeling of superiority and reverence. finnally i was shown the picture of mirza (something i could have seen on wikipedia) and saw he was just a man and then was shown his infallible hand writing (more haphazard then my own) and saw that he was just a megalomaniac man man who couldn’t even reconcile with his own brother (the real reason he was exiled and imprisoned that he was making the ottomans upset by the internal violence in his own family not cause of his teachings)

    sure the bahai faith is better than most religions. but it is still a faith. the crazy belief in dangerous ideas without proof and somehow feeling that the concept is virtuous. it will always be more trouble then its worth because unlike science or philosophy it claims it is absolutely true and therefore will attract extremest and corrupted mortal humans who want to use the shield of someone else’s claimed infallibility for their own unquestioned financial and influential gain. if every bahai converted into moral atheists the world would be a much better place

  • heresthetruth

    on yeah i forgot my number 8. that mirza had many wives yet bahais condemn plural marriage…

  • Concourse on Low

    You’re the Khatami of the Baha’i Faith, Baquia.

    Yes, that’s an insult.

  • Baquia

    Taylor, if you allow me I’d like to address the points which you bring up. This intended as clarify them for others and yourself, not to convince you to return to the Baha’i Faith necessarily. You are, of course, free to decide your own spiritual path (or lack thereof, as it were). Since I’ve also grappled with many of the points you raised already, instead of entering into a lengthy discussion here, I’ll instead point you to the relevant blog post.

    1 the Baha’i Faith acknowledges evolution. Like many other theists Baha’is believe that God is the creator that set in motion the reality that we experience. Atheists disagree with this of course but I fail to see an inherent contradiction within the Baha’i theology.

    2 women on the UHJ: for more please see
    “Women’s Service on the Universal House of Justice”

    3 no Baha’i will be branded a CB if they question their own Faith. It happens all the time within feasts, gatherings and other interactions such as letters sent to the ITC/UHJ, etc. The 15th month of the Baha’i calendar is “Questions” and as such they are valuable.

    To become a CB one has to directly oppose and/or attack the Baha’i Faith, its central figures and/or institutions. This is not a light distinction and therefore, there are only a handful of CB’s around today.

    4 re homosexuality, please see this: “Baha’u’llah and the Subject of Boys”. There is a rich discussion of this also in the comments section as well as in other blogs and sites linked to there.

    the Baha’i Faith does not endorse persecution of homosexuals as you seem to imply in your message.

    5 Baha’is do not celebrate but commemorate and honor the history of the Babi Faith which included many violent clashes. It is important to distinguish that in each and every case, the Babis were engaging with a vicious enemy hellbent on their annihilation and only did so as a final last resort to defend themselves. Babis were not engaging in “holy war” to force others to become aligned with them or to convert them.

    The Bab wrote:

    “It is better to guide one soul than to possess all that is on earth, for as long as that guided soul is under the shadow of the Tree of Divine Unity, he and the one who hath guided him will both be recipients of God’s tender mercy, whereas possession of earthly things will cease at the time of death. The path to guidance is one of love and compassion, not of force and coercion. This hath been God’s method in the past, and shall continue to be in the future. He causeth him whom He pleaseth to enter the shadow of His Mercy.””

    And likewise Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “Beware lest ye shed the blood of any one. Unsheathe the sword of your
    tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the
    citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war
    against each other. God’s mercy hath, verily, encompassed all created
    things, if ye do but understand.”

    From: “We have annulled the rule of the sword”

    After Baha’u’llah’s injunction, Baha’is were further restricted to refrain from violence even if it meant foregoing self-defense. And so, many Baha’is were killed and are continuing to be persecuted and killed even now in Iran.

    6 re nature and the environment. The Baha’i Faith believes that the ecosystem is yet another manifestation of God as Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “Nature in its essence is the embodiment of My Name,
    the Maker, the Creator. Its manifestations are diversified by varying causes,
    and in this diversity there are signs for men of discernment. Nature is God’s
    Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world.”

    As such the Baha’i Faith believes in a holistic approach which integrates man within its environment and recognizes the reciprocal affect that one has on the other. The Baha’is are active within international organizations such as the UN to bring attention to the importance of environmental protection and the preservation of our natural heritage. This is world’s away from a theology that puts man on top of nature and expects one to exploit the other.

    7 there are two aspects to each religion, the spiritual teachings and the social laws. One is unchanging and unfolding while the other is dynamic and contingent on the exigencies of the specific time.

    8 Baha’u’llah had many wives but Baha’is do not practice polygamy. For more, please see this: It’s a little known fact [4]

    9 the Baha’i Faith was not brought to the world to institute a theocracy and as such the ‘answers’ it offers are spiritual in nature. Baha’is believe that important decisions can be made by the appropriate secular and scientific institutions without the need for the intervention of God or religious institutions in the minutia of life.

    Having said that, for the Baha’i community and the world, Baha’u’llah created the institution of the Universal House of Justice which among other responsibilities is entrusted with the role of providing guidance, if it is asked. And they have provided it on several issues such as peace, the environment, the equality of women, etc. You can read some of these statements here.

  • DoubtingPatrick

    A bahai could be branded a CB if they questioned Shogi’s right to interpret teachings and the vitality of his will. like ruth white

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_White_(Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_author)

    someone could be compelled to ask such questions if they believed in the infallibility of the original writings but though that shogi’s prejudice letters on homosexuality meant that he wasn’t suited to interpret teachings and therefore might not have legitimately been appointed. 

  • Anonymous

    If there’s something specific which you disagree with or know to be wrong in my reply, please let me know.

  • Baquia

    Of course. As I wrote above if you attack the central figures then yes, you’ll be declared a CB.

  • Concourse on Low

    It’s the spirit of the reply, Baquia.

    Like Khatami, you refuse to acknowledge that the system is irreformable and that its worst features are not the result of bad leaders but systemic flaws.

  • Concourse on Low

    What constitutes an “attack”? Is subjecting the claims of Baha’u’llah to critical scrutiny an “attack”?

  • Anonymous

    It is quite explicitly stated in Abdu’l-Baha’s Will and Testament that Shoghi Effendi was the next Centre of the Covenant after Abdu’l-Baha. Therefore, DoubtingPatrick, there is no doubt that the Guardian was legitimately appointed. To accept the Teachings of the Baha’i Faith, it is to accept the authority of Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice because they are very clearly stated as the Successors. There is a reason why those not named Covenant Breakers number in the millions, while the biggest group of those who do reach less than a hundred.

  • Anonymous

    Regardless of the fact that I believe Baquia has answered Taylorlornebritton well, consider this quote from Abdu’l-Baha ?To be a Bah??’? simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.? This is what I see in many Baha’is through their actions, and regardless of all the proofs that there are written in the History books or the Writings Themselves, this is a proof itself of the Faith’s benevolent Purpose.

    ‘We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?… Yet so it shall be; these fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ?Most Great Peace’ shall come…. Yet do We see your kings and rulers lavishing their treasures more freely on means for the destruction of the human race than on that which would conduce to the happiness of mankind…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family…. Let not a man glory in this, that he loves his country; let him rather glory in this, that he loves his kind….’ – Baha’u’llah

  • Baquia

    CoL, I think an a ‘attack’ is readily recognizable but if you’d like to me to define it beforehand I would say denying the authority of the institutions; personal or petty insults; slander, malicious lies intended to poison people’s perceptions.

  • CoL

    Baquia, you’re replying to my comment after over a year? Ok, buddy. 

    You operate with a narrow definition of attack, while the vast majority of your co-religionists operate with a very broad one where they view any critical questions or good faith challenges as an attack. I eagerly await your reply in 2013. But, as the Mayans have warned us, the world won’t be around then, so I guess this is goodbye. 

  • Baquia

    CoL, LoL I missed your comment previously and happened to chance on it just recently. You may be right, different individual Baha’is have different interpretations on what ‘attack’ means. The one I provided is the one that the institutions follow to determine whether to name someone a CB, which was I believe the question in the first place.

  • Fubar

    Science (evolutionary theory) points toward the fact that human beings are doomed by their DNA to be tribal (empires are supertribes), superb at  hypocrisy and lies (all these “negative” moral qualities are {according to science} actually excellent survival tools for a primate species that depended for survival in its historical origins on shared learning, ritual bonding and social networking.

    “Social (and moral) psychologist Jonathan Haidt explains how liberals and conservatives see the world differently.”

    http://billmoyers.com/segment/jonathan-haidt-explains-our-contentious-culture/

    (Haidt comes to the conclusion that conservatives have a more balanced moral psychology, but are more narrow and less curious.)

    The justification for the claims to truth/perfection/infallibility made by bahai authorities (including the founders) are, like all religion, culturally limited, and full of peculiarities (including a huge number of errors, lies and distortions) caused by the personalities and cultures involved in the origins.

    The authoritarian claims of “divine origins”, perfection, infallibility are so obviously contradicted by the tribalistic context of the very claims themselves that is it amazing that any rational person would attempt to reform the religion.

    As time goes by, the model of Human Nature and the Kosmos that is asserted as “Truth” in bahai scripture becomes more and more backward looking.

    As it does for all medieval religions, science and modern scholarship have peeled away the errors and lies from bahaism.

    If bahais themselves could do the same, they would at least have a core set of flexible (not orthodox/rigid) spiritual ideas and practices that could stand as valid constructs.

    But that will not likely happen. Bahaism is a tribal/supertribal imperialistic religion, as were all the judeo-christian-islamic religions in its historical tradition. It has to position itself as an imperial religion. It is incapable of transcending the need to be the religion of empire. “New World Order” = Empire = Male Archetype of Law and Order = Axial Religion = Male Only Membership on UHJ = anti-homosexual = anti-democracy = anti-science. ETC.

  • Desir0101

    Quote fromBaquia.”” If you ask a Baha’i, ?Why are we here?’ you will prabably hear that humanity’s purpose is to know God and to worship God.””

    I say,
    Know yourself, discover the gems of powers within you , you will then appreciate every being and every thing around you.
    You will will then have a glimpse of an infinitesimal of what GoD is.

  • Craig Parke

    A very interesting post in light of the themes in the film “Prometheus” Fubar! (The film was visually gorgeous in State of the Art CGI and Set Building craft by 1,000 artisans a la Ridley Scott but absolutely HORRIBLE in the SHOOTING SCRIPT Story Line. It could have been so much better! That Screenwriter Damon Lindelof from “Lost” apparently just phoned it in! What a bust! The late great Dan O’Bannon must be rolling over in his grave – God rest his Soul! I may try my own hand at the sequel! They missed an ocean of opportunity!

    The sequel could be to take your DNA post here and combine it with the seed themes this guy sees! Especially the Dr. Who “Liz Shaw” connection! He is on the right track!

    http://cavalorn.livejournal.com/584135.html#cutid1

    Cavalorn’s essay has become such a World Wide Internet phenomenon this week that the link may time out! But it is definitely worth the read if you can get through or find it somewhere else!

    These guys pretty much nailed it:

    http://blip.tv/the-spoony-experiment/vlog-6-8-12-prometheus-6194523

    Meanwhile, since Baha’u’llah says every fixed star carries planets with Creatures on them no man can number I think the human race – Erich Anton Paul von D?niken and Zecharia Sitchin not yet proven -  should at least get our franchise sci-fi films straightened out before we make Contact!

    I am so shocked that Lindelof apparently just did not do his basic homework! He apparently does not realize that absolutely none of the Abrahamic religions are original in themes in the spiritual current time line of history! He just went back to Christianity for his first surface level theme! I’m shocked I tell you! Absolutely shocked he took the cheap way out! He should have at the very least gone back to Zoroaster (which everyone thought they totally milked on “Lost” anyway for five entire years picking up a pay check because the American and World viewing public is so incredibly dumbed down in human philosophical knowledge.)

    There should at the very least be a “Ruhi Book” of some kind on the Zoroastrian themes in “Lost”. I may write it myself!

    One multiple choice question will be:

    “You can make allot of money writing for TV by re-cycling which original Zoroastrian ideas?

    1. The concept of Heaven and Hell.
    2. The concept of Angels.
    3. The concept of Satan
    4. The concept of Divine Judgment at the End of the World Age.
    5. The concept of a Messiah or World teacher.
    6. The concept of the Cosmic War of Light vs Darkness.
    7. ALL OF THE ABOVE.

    The right answer is, of course, 7!

    Now where is my bonus check and a date with a Super Model?

    But, anyway, the DNA theme is topic number one if you have seen the film!

    Best to everyone here who is thinking in life even though original creative thinking is absolutely forbidden by many, many, many power structures on this Planet!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Gray/100001692531472 Stephen Gray

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

    I find Wikipedia has the most extensive list of responses from various perspectives.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Stephen-Gray/100001692531472 Stephen Gray

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

    I like Wikipedia’s article on the meaning of life.

    For example, I come from both the classical liberal and Buddhist (Mahayana) tradition as of now.

    Classical liberalism is a set of ideas that arose in the 17th and 18th centuries, out of conflicts between a growing, wealthy, propertied class and the established aristocratic and religious orders that dominated Europe. Liberalism cast humans as beings with inalienable natural rights (including the right to retain the wealth generated by one’s own work), and sought out means to balance rights across society. Broadly speaking, it considers individual liberty to be the most important goal,[27] because only through ensured liberty are the other inherent rights protected.
    There are many forms and derivations of liberalism, but their central conceptions of the meaning of life trace back to three main ideas. Early thinkers such as John Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Adam Smith saw humankind beginning in the state of nature, then finding meaning for existence through labor and property, and using social contracts to create an environment that supports those efforts.

    Mahayana Buddhist schools de-emphasize the traditional view (still practiced in Theravada) of the release from individual Suffering (Dukkha) and attainment of Awakening (Nirvana). In Mahayana, the Buddha is seen as an eternal, immutable, inconceivable, omnipresent being. The fundamental principles of Mahayana doctrine are based on the possibility of universal liberation from suffering for all beings, and the existence of the transcendent Buddha-nature, which is the eternal Buddha essence present, but hidden and unrecognised, in all living beings.[citation needed]
    Philosophical schools of Mahayana Buddhism, such as Chan/Zen and the vajrayana Tibetan and Shingon schools, explicitly teach that bodhisattvas should refrain from full liberation, allowing themselves to be reincarnated into the world until all beings achieve enlightenment. Devotional schools such as Pure Land Buddhism seek the aid of celestial buddhas—individuals who have spent lifetimes[citation needed] accumulating positive karma, and use that accumulation to aid all.

  • drfakename

    well what if the will and testament was a forgery like Ruth White said? no one is in the position to legitimately investigate this because they would be labeled covenant breakers. or what if the will wasn’t a forgery but Abbas Effendi was just a fallible human and made a mistake by electing such a bigoted person to be his successor? on that point what evidence is there that Mirza Husayn Ali was infallible at all? He preformed no miracles supported by the historical record, he possessed no knowledge that was unthinkable for a contemporary of his time, there is no historical record of his apparent divine bloodline. And he failed to predict many of the issues that would become important to the citizens of the world just a century or so later. If he had a direct phone line to some god why didn’t he write a book about; hey in the future there will be the discovery of things called stemcells… this is how we should feel about that. and cloning etc. Apart from the subject of boys line that is about pedophiles not gay people he didn’t say anything about gay people a phenomenon that has been around for the entire history of our species. Now you could argue that he did know about this stuff but didnt want to mention it cause it would confuse and scare the local muslims he wanted to convert but then why didnt he pass the secrets of the future on down his bloodline? isnt it more likely that Mirza Husayn was just a man. a man who saw many of the problems with the muslim world he lived in and so he formed a faith to counter those issues. maybe he knew he was lying and just though that religion was the only thing to trump religion or maybe he was a megalomaniac. What are the good things he said? that all people are equalish. well he didnt explain this very well. he didnt define woman as equal (wings of one bird is a fancy turn of phrase but not accurate to his teachings) he should have said that men are the brain of one pig and woman are the rectum because that would have closer matched his views. He defined set roles for men and woman. Men and woman do not have set rolls. people should be free to choose their own purpose in life. He strictly defined the roles of the family. this is the worst teachings he made really. he was ignorant to the future that families can take on practically infinite forms and none are prime. As long as their is love and support in a family it doesn’t matter if a kid as two dads or two mums or two mums and two dads etc. Have all of you read his books? it gets so specific about how your hair should look, who should get what dowry, how you cant kiss ladies on the hand. nonsense that is so obviously just a retaliation of what he felt were the problems of islam in his day than a true blueprint as to how human beings should live. As religions go the bahai faith is better than most but that isn’t saying much. So whats the harm? well bahais waste resources. they take the love and care and money and time of their followers who only want to do good and waste it on temples to serve their own interests, childrens classes that are simply schools of indoctrination. Fancy pants gardens that are designed to put people in a false state of reverence thinking that some absent divinity is present. Worst of all they make people (and children) believe that such fantastical things are true and possible. If you raise a child to believe in faith based ideas you train them to accept things without evidence. You teach them to think that there is a defined purpose to our species that elite members of us know the truth of. you make them think that the only way to have mortals and value of your life is to become a slave to the ideas of the dead. raise a child like this and you mold them into a tool for others to take advantage of. imagine if all the money that went into the gardens and temples and childrens classes and flights for meaningless missionary “Pilgrimages” went directly into actual aid. like vaccines, condoms, solar cookers, doctors without boarders. yeah i know that bahais do that stuff too but they do it on their own time and dollar in spite of what their corrupt UHJ wants of them. To me the bahai faith is actually among the worst of religions cause it wastes the resources of the best of people.

  • drfakename

    1 bahais may say that they believe in evolution but they don’t. they imply that humans were an endgame. something that evolution was leading towards. humans are not an endgame. they were no ones idea. they are a simple result of natural selection that have no designed purpose

    2 woman are not equal in the bahai faith. woman and men are given defined roles and purpose which isn’t true. free humans should have the freedom to define their own roles and purpose in life and family

    3 bahais will be branded CB if they openly question their own faith if the areas of faith in question are mirza’s infallibility or really any of the accepted aspects of the power structure

    4 bahais do persecute gay people. telling people that homosexual acts are sinful is persecution. calling a humans nature sinful is persecution. forcing gay bahais to live closeted and celibate lives is abuse

    5 they do exploit the violent history of the bab by making political and regional violence by implying that babis were on some divinely correct side and making the history of bahais out to be some important and tragic tale of persecuted underdogs. The whole bahai sales pitch is based on this underdog story with a twist ending that one day the underdogs will take over when entry by troops happens

    6 bahai teachings do harm the environment. any teaching that define humans as being divinely superior than their natural surroundings with promote human expansion over environmental protection.

    7 you response to OPs number 7 isnt even a response you can use that bahai tagline that there are two sides of religions all you want but that only make his point stronger. saying there are two sides of past religions is just another example of bahais rewriting the history of past religions to suit their needs. there are bahai books that are about the bahai take or version on other religions, skewing history to make it seem like unrelated things were leading towards the bahai faith. the teaching of your faith on contrary to countless of the social and spiritual teachings of the religions that apparently were also the products of your one true god. the god of other religions just isnt the same character as the bahai god even more so than the character of god in the old testament doesnt match up with the character of god depicted in the new testament.

    8 the polygamy thing is a point you copped out in addressing. the bahai view and the state view on polygamy is wrong. there is no evidence that there is anything wrong with polygamy. only religion based opinions. there is something wrong with people being married against their will or children being married but who is to say 3 or 4 or 20 humans cant all be in a loving and fulfilling relationship with one another. the bahai stance is even more ridiculous on this point because of the hypocrisy that it was okay for mirza but not only for his followers. bahai’s often explain this by saying that mirza was a perfect prophet so only he was perfect enough to be able to love multiple wives equally. well that is rude. there have been better people than mirza and are better people than him right now. there are many balanced and mature and intelligent humans who can handle having multiple partners and it is a crime that faith based opinions force these people to lives closeted lives.

    9 you copped out the most for your answer to point 9. the bahai faith made tons of rules about non spiritual things. and what is spirituality? what is the point of it? religions address both science based questions and social based questions morality based questions. religion has no place in defining scientific questions in modern times. only the scientific method does. and for that matter the scientific method works better than religion to address social and moral questions too. you propose a hypothesis. you test it with facts and evidence and you discover new facts and make theories. like the social issues that only one man and one woman should be married, parents. this is more a scientific question than a moral one. you make a hypothesis “maybe only men and women should be married” you test it with facts. you look at the success and failures of diverse marriages. you learn new facts and make a new theory that “oh, it turns out that there isnt just one form of a successful relationship and family” and then there are moral questions. science does a better job as addressing these too. some dude that died a couple hundred years ago having an opinion and then electing a body to interpret what he might have thought about modern issues is not effective. people should not be allowed to impose their moral opinions on others unless they can be proven with the scientific method or math. should people be allowed to do whatever they want to their own bodies? that is a moral question. bahais have their view. imo if yoy can support those views with science and math then you cant force it onto others. there are many moral conclusions that science can make that we can enforce. like the variations of the golden rule can be proven mathematically. the nash equilibrium alone proves that cooperation and collaboration is more beneficial for the group and the individual than conflict. the only real moral rules we should enforce are that no one should have the right to hurt one another, interfere with the pursuit of happiness of one another or define that pursuit. if a dude thinks his pursuit of happiness involves molesting or murdering then too bad because that would interfere with the victims rights so the rule corrects its own contradictions. I dont believe you are open minded baquia. if you were you would have addressed the OPs specific points about mugabe and evolution etc. you seemed so programmed in your responses as if you were scared to actually think about any of the questions. this is the truth of the fallacy of the personal investigation of truth. bahai supposedly question their faith and are encouraged to do so while being to scared to actually ask any hard questions. you cant be open minded while believing that the source of your opinions was infallible. Entry by troops is going to happen but it isnt going to be bahais. we are dawning on a new age of enlightenment where no human will take another humans word as holy or infallible. and age where all knowledge is taken at face value, investigated and adapted in a more opensource method than even Wikipedia. and age where everyone truly thinks for themselves and accepts that there is no purpose to life beyond the purpose we make for our selves and that sadly that the likely truth we face is that there is no afterlife and so we have to make earth as heavenly as possible and use science to extend the lives of mortal men as much as HUMANLY possible.

  • desir0101

    Hi not so bad.