You Mean Baha’i, Right?

If you live in a large enough city, you eventually will run into this sort of placard (unfortunately attached to a loony person). Right there, between “DRUNKARD’S” and “CATHOLIC’S”… I think the misspelled word is meant to be Baha’i. Misspelling is of course, the least of this person’s problems.

I had no idea I ♥ the devil. Including Baha’i, little ol’ me fits into six of the categories. Can you beat that? Do you ♥ the devil more?

jeebuz lovin nutjob

Boy, that's a lot of hate. About the only thing this person seems to love is Jesus... and' apostrophes'.

Bonus points if you can tell us what P.K. stands for in Jeebus-speak.

Oh and before I forget… McCain ’08!!

;)

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    Im leaning towards PORN KING’S, but the urban dictionary offer’s me a wide choice. Maybe its outsider art. Thank’s, Steve

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    Im leaning towards PORN KING’S, but the urban dictionary offer’s me a wide choice. Maybe its outsider art. Thank’s, Steve

  • Andrew

    I, Eve, in Jesus.

    The loony person must be a Collyridian heretic.

  • Andrew

    I, Eve, in Jesus.

    The loony person must be a Collyridian heretic.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    What’s the meaning of: “Oh and before I forget… McCain â€?08!!” I’m a Baha’i out here in Maryland and feel like I’m at a DNC convention sometimes at Holy Day celebrations. How any Baha’i can justify voting for any liberal candidate is lost on me.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    What’s the meaning of: “Oh and before I forget… McCain â€?08!!” I’m a Baha’i out here in Maryland and feel like I’m at a DNC convention sometimes at Holy Day celebrations. How any Baha’i can justify voting for any liberal candidate is lost on me.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]What’s the meaning of: “Oh and before I forget… McCain â€?08!!” I’m a Baha’i out here in Maryland and feel like I’m at a DNC convention sometimes at Holy Day celebrations. How any Baha’i can justify voting for any liberal candidate is lost on me.[/quote]

    Hi Ryuan,

    Thank you for your military service in Iraq or Afghanistan.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]What’s the meaning of: “Oh and before I forget… McCain â€?08!!” I’m a Baha’i out here in Maryland and feel like I’m at a DNC convention sometimes at Holy Day celebrations. How any Baha’i can justify voting for any liberal candidate is lost on me.[/quote]

    Hi Ryuan,

    Thank you for your military service in Iraq or Afghanistan.

  • http://gurno.com Adam Gurno

    P.K. = Promise Keepers?

    The Keepers were an American Christian movement about a decade ago. I don’t understand how there would be a connection here, but it might fit.

  • http://gurno.com Adam Gurno

    P.K. = Promise Keepers?

    The Keepers were an American Christian movement about a decade ago. I don’t understand how there would be a connection here, but it might fit.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    @Ryan, did you follow the link to the video? first time being accused of light-handed sarcasm ;)

    @Adam, thanks, that makes sense. here’s the wikipedia article on the promise keepers

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    @Ryan, did you follow the link to the video? first time being accused of light-handed sarcasm ;)

    @Adam, thanks, that makes sense. here’s the wikipedia article on the promise keepers

  • http://bahaitheway.blogspot.com Priscilla

    Sports nuts: that ‘s the first I’ve seen that one on such a list.

  • http://bahaitheway.blogspot.com Priscilla

    Sports nuts: that ‘s the first I’ve seen that one on such a list.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    [quote comment=""]Sports nuts: that ‘s the first I’ve seen that one on such a list.[/quote]

    I’m sure if pressed the hate would equally extend to macadamia, hazel and brazil nuts. But notice there is no mention of Jews. There are some lines, even whack-jobs don’t cross :D

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    [quote comment=""]Sports nuts: that ‘s the first I’ve seen that one on such a list.[/quote]

    I’m sure if pressed the hate would equally extend to macadamia, hazel and brazil nuts. But notice there is no mention of Jews. There are some lines, even whack-jobs don’t cross :D

  • David

    Ryan,

    I’m always truly interested to know more about Bahais who do not support American liberalism. Do you consider yourself a conservative? Why did you become a Bahai, or were you born into a Bahai family?

  • David

    Ryan,

    I’m always truly interested to know more about Bahais who do not support American liberalism. Do you consider yourself a conservative? Why did you become a Bahai, or were you born into a Bahai family?

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    oops! my bad, I missed that Ryan didn’t like democrats. As a Baha’i and just as a human being, I don’t think about it as you do Ryan. That is, I don’t consider myself this or that but at every election I look at the candidates, what they stand for and who they are. Then I make a choice. In this election the choice is extremely clear, as any poll can tell you.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    oops! my bad, I missed that Ryan didn’t like democrats. As a Baha’i and just as a human being, I don’t think about it as you do Ryan. That is, I don’t consider myself this or that but at every election I look at the candidates, what they stand for and who they are. Then I make a choice. In this election the choice is extremely clear, as any poll can tell you.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Satanists are excused, I suppose.

    No space for Communist’s and Terrorist’s?

    Other runners up:

    Evolutionist’s
    Journalist’s
    Grammarist’s
    Flatulator’s

    And Priscilla, that’s “sport’s nut’s”. Every apostrophe has a thousand meanings.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Satanists are excused, I suppose.

    No space for Communist’s and Terrorist’s?

    Other runners up:

    Evolutionist’s
    Journalist’s
    Grammarist’s
    Flatulator’s

    And Priscilla, that’s “sport’s nut’s”. Every apostrophe has a thousand meanings.

  • Craig Parke

    Hummm. “Government Recipients”. Doesn’t that include everyone in Alaska then, even at the Wasilla Bible Church, because everyone in Alaska gets the oil fund check every year? Doesn’t that also include everyone in the People’s Republic of Wall Street in the Nine Core Banks? Looks like everyone is going to hell. But I think we already are in hell with the mentality of so called “religious” people walking around on this planet. I’ll try to find that spot on quote by Abdu’l-Baha where he basically says religious people are completely incompetent and should never be put in charge of running anything involving the public good. I think he is right. I think it is all a matter of brain chemistry. People who are delusional and insane and who never never been held accountable for anything in their lives should never be put in charge of anything. The rise of the technology of the Internet will now bring accountability to every person and every organization on Earth. It is an incredible thing to watch develop. It is fierce and it is here to stay. The politics of the judgment of accountability IS the new politics of the World Age. It is upon everyone on Earth. It is a game changer. There is no place to run and no place to hide. If you are an incompetent idiot in your responsibilities and duties to the public good, you are going to be exposed.

    You have to get with the power of the New World Age and the New World Pole orientation when the new Divine song gets on the radio and into the affairs of men as so beautifully expressed in “O Brother, Where Art Thou” when Pappy O’Daniel decides to 100% support the Soggy Bottom Boys as a hit act on the Pappy O’Daniel Flour Hour.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIKz1phnuCc

    Everyone get more and more “Old-Timey”!

    Everyone keep posting!

  • Craig Parke

    Hummm. “Government Recipients”. Doesn’t that include everyone in Alaska then, even at the Wasilla Bible Church, because everyone in Alaska gets the oil fund check every year? Doesn’t that also include everyone in the People’s Republic of Wall Street in the Nine Core Banks? Looks like everyone is going to hell. But I think we already are in hell with the mentality of so called “religious” people walking around on this planet. I’ll try to find that spot on quote by Abdu’l-Baha where he basically says religious people are completely incompetent and should never be put in charge of running anything involving the public good. I think he is right. I think it is all a matter of brain chemistry. People who are delusional and insane and who never never been held accountable for anything in their lives should never be put in charge of anything. The rise of the technology of the Internet will now bring accountability to every person and every organization on Earth. It is an incredible thing to watch develop. It is fierce and it is here to stay. The politics of the judgment of accountability IS the new politics of the World Age. It is upon everyone on Earth. It is a game changer. There is no place to run and no place to hide. If you are an incompetent idiot in your responsibilities and duties to the public good, you are going to be exposed.

    You have to get with the power of the New World Age and the New World Pole orientation when the new Divine song gets on the radio and into the affairs of men as so beautifully expressed in “O Brother, Where Art Thou” when Pappy O’Daniel decides to 100% support the Soggy Bottom Boys as a hit act on the Pappy O’Daniel Flour Hour.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIKz1phnuCc

    Everyone get more and more “Old-Timey”!

    Everyone keep posting!

  • Andrew

    Oh, and here’s something for Baha’is, online. As in Baha’is, online.

    Here it is:

    http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/lessons_for_christians_in_the.php#more

  • Andrew

    Oh, and here’s something for Baha’is, online. As in Baha’is, online.

    Here it is:

    http://www.episcopalcafe.com/daily/interfaith/lessons_for_christians_in_the.php#more

  • Bonzo

    Bonzo agrees! If we can’t support individual liberty rather than submission to the Administrative Order then we’re useless! We’re useless! Useless!

  • Bonzo

    Bonzo agrees! If we can’t support individual liberty rather than submission to the Administrative Order then we’re useless! We’re useless! Useless!

  • DCO in Sacto

    I think if McCain wins Mrs. Palin will make sure that there are more of these nut jobs on each campus and that the sign will be spelled correctly… VIVA Obama!

  • DCO in Sacto

    I think if McCain wins Mrs. Palin will make sure that there are more of these nut jobs on each campus and that the sign will be spelled correctly… VIVA Obama!

  • p

    Interesting that “murderers'” is not on there. And that comes direct from teh bible “Thou Shalt Not Kill”

  • p

    Interesting that “murderers'” is not on there. And that comes direct from teh bible “Thou Shalt Not Kill”

  • David

    Thanks for replying, Ryan. I, too, am more interested in ideologies and philosophies rather than party politics. That’s why I was interested to know your views on things, since you don’t support liberal candidates. I’m also a firm believer in individual liberty but don’t see that idea supported much in the two major American political parties. Out of all the Bahai friends and family I’ve talked about politics with over the years, I think three or four said they’ve voted for Republicans and only a couple of those seemed genuinely supportive or even aware of traditional conservatism espoused by Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk.

  • David

    Thanks for replying, Ryan. I, too, am more interested in ideologies and philosophies rather than party politics. That’s why I was interested to know your views on things, since you don’t support liberal candidates. I’m also a firm believer in individual liberty but don’t see that idea supported much in the two major American political parties. Out of all the Bahai friends and family I’ve talked about politics with over the years, I think three or four said they’ve voted for Republicans and only a couple of those seemed genuinely supportive or even aware of traditional conservatism espoused by Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Thanks for replying, Ryan. I, too, am more interested in ideologies and philosophies rather than party politics. That’s why I was interested to know your views on things, since you don’t support liberal candidates. I’m also a firm believer in individual liberty but don’t see that idea supported much in the two major American political parties. Out of all the Bahai friends and family I’ve talked about politics with over the years, I think three or four said they’ve voted for Republicans and only a couple of those seemed genuinely supportive or even aware of traditional conservatism espoused by Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk.[/quote]

    Ryan and David,

    If you are both Americans, why aren’t you both in Iraq or Afghanistan RIGHT NOW defending your country as TRUE CONSERVATIVE PATRIOTS for our sacred freedoms as well as “doing God’s work” as an extra bonus as former UHJ member Glenford Mitchell says?

    Let’s hear why you choose not to be there as true, dedicated, patriots interested in defending “individual liberty”?

    This is your job as patriots:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI4UNem_Eik

    Your job is to put it on the line for “individual liberty” if that is what you believe in. Otherwise you are living on the blood and sacrifice of others. And people who live on the blood and sacrifice of others are spiritual vampires.

    Why aren’t you both carrying a rifle RIGHT NOW?

    Craig Parke
    1st Lieutenant
    U.S. Army
    1969-1971

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment=""]Thanks for replying, Ryan. I, too, am more interested in ideologies and philosophies rather than party politics. That’s why I was interested to know your views on things, since you don’t support liberal candidates. I’m also a firm believer in individual liberty but don’t see that idea supported much in the two major American political parties. Out of all the Bahai friends and family I’ve talked about politics with over the years, I think three or four said they’ve voted for Republicans and only a couple of those seemed genuinely supportive or even aware of traditional conservatism espoused by Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk.[/quote]

    Ryan and David,

    If you are both Americans, why aren’t you both in Iraq or Afghanistan RIGHT NOW defending your country as TRUE CONSERVATIVE PATRIOTS for our sacred freedoms as well as “doing God’s work” as an extra bonus as former UHJ member Glenford Mitchell says?

    Let’s hear why you choose not to be there as true, dedicated, patriots interested in defending “individual liberty”?

    This is your job as patriots:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI4UNem_Eik

    Your job is to put it on the line for “individual liberty” if that is what you believe in. Otherwise you are living on the blood and sacrifice of others. And people who live on the blood and sacrifice of others are spiritual vampires.

    Why aren’t you both carrying a rifle RIGHT NOW?

    Craig Parke
    1st Lieutenant
    U.S. Army
    1969-1971

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Ryan, what about Abdu’l-Bahas model of a community “store-house”? are you familiar with it? or about this on profit sharing:

    the owners of properties, mines and factories should share their incomes with their employees and give a fairly certain percentage of their products to their workingmen in order that the employees may receive, beside their wages, some of the general income of the factory so that the employee may strive with his soul in the work.

    and even more plainly (my own emphasis):

    The fourth principle or teaching of Bah??’u’ll??h is the readjustment and equalization of the economic standards of mankind. This deals with the question of human livelihood. It is evident that under present systems and conditions of government the poor are subject to the greatest need and distress while others more fortunate live in luxury and plenty far beyond their actual necessities. This inequality of portion and privilege is one of the deep and vital problems of human society. That there is need of an equalization and apportionment by which all may possess the comforts and privileges of life is evident. The remedy must be legislative readjustment of conditions. The rich too must be merciful to the poor, contributing from willing hearts to their needs without being forced or compelled to do so. The composure of the world will he assured by the establishment of this principle in the religious life of mankind.

    and Shoghi Effendi:

    The income tax, according to the Bah??’?­ teachings, mounts at quite a steep rate so that great sums of money would be very heavily taxed. But the individual is free to make his will as he pleases. What he has laboured for he has the right to dispose of. The greater the sum inherited, the higher the tax will be.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Ryan, what about Abdu’l-Bahas model of a community “store-house”? are you familiar with it? or about this on profit sharing:

    the owners of properties, mines and factories should share their incomes with their employees and give a fairly certain percentage of their products to their workingmen in order that the employees may receive, beside their wages, some of the general income of the factory so that the employee may strive with his soul in the work.

    and even more plainly (my own emphasis):

    The fourth principle or teaching of Bah??’u’ll??h is the readjustment and equalization of the economic standards of mankind. This deals with the question of human livelihood. It is evident that under present systems and conditions of government the poor are subject to the greatest need and distress while others more fortunate live in luxury and plenty far beyond their actual necessities. This inequality of portion and privilege is one of the deep and vital problems of human society. That there is need of an equalization and apportionment by which all may possess the comforts and privileges of life is evident. The remedy must be legislative readjustment of conditions. The rich too must be merciful to the poor, contributing from willing hearts to their needs without being forced or compelled to do so. The composure of the world will he assured by the establishment of this principle in the religious life of mankind.

    and Shoghi Effendi:

    The income tax, according to the Bah??’?­ teachings, mounts at quite a steep rate so that great sums of money would be very heavily taxed. But the individual is free to make his will as he pleases. What he has laboured for he has the right to dispose of. The greater the sum inherited, the higher the tax will be.

  • David

    Wow, Craig! All I said was that I believe in individual liberty, and you automatically assume I’m a chickenhawk, warmonger. That’s a mighty big leap to make. Your assumptions about me are wrong, by the way.

  • David

    Wow, Craig! All I said was that I believe in individual liberty, and you automatically assume I’m a chickenhawk, warmonger. That’s a mighty big leap to make. Your assumptions about me are wrong, by the way.

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="58293"]I’m a Baha’i out here in Maryland and feel like I’m at a DNC convention sometimes at Holy Day celebrations. How any Baha’i can justify voting for any liberal candidate is lost on me.[/quote]

    Hi Ryan,

    Welcome to the discussion. At first I thought you might be the guy behind The Baha’i Liberty Blog, but that’s Todd Steinberg. I think Todd makes a very good argument for libertarian views.

    I’m a self-employed computer technician and do quite a bit of work for small businesses. I lean well to the left, even by NZ standards, and I’ve found that many business people tend towards the right –which, in NZ, is about as far right as the US Democratic Party, I suspect. :-)

    But those Left/Right categories do seem to be blurring. I find that business people are often very generous about offering direct aid to others and about offering a fair reward for work done. And they frequently have a strong social conscience. I think it’s important to get beyond the labels and the fixed positions. All people are capable of virtues, and those virtues can be expressed in many different ways.

    ka kite
    Steve

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="58293"]I’m a Baha’i out here in Maryland and feel like I’m at a DNC convention sometimes at Holy Day celebrations. How any Baha’i can justify voting for any liberal candidate is lost on me.[/quote]

    Hi Ryan,

    Welcome to the discussion. At first I thought you might be the guy behind The Baha’i Liberty Blog, but that’s Todd Steinberg. I think Todd makes a very good argument for libertarian views.

    I’m a self-employed computer technician and do quite a bit of work for small businesses. I lean well to the left, even by NZ standards, and I’ve found that many business people tend towards the right –which, in NZ, is about as far right as the US Democratic Party, I suspect. :-)

    But those Left/Right categories do seem to be blurring. I find that business people are often very generous about offering direct aid to others and about offering a fair reward for work done. And they frequently have a strong social conscience. I think it’s important to get beyond the labels and the fixed positions. All people are capable of virtues, and those virtues can be expressed in many different ways.

    ka kite
    Steve

  • Ryan Jenkins

    Baquia: There are contradictions in the quotes provided (no big surprise there). Here is the most telling phrase IMO:

    “The rich too must be merciful to the poor, contributing from willing hearts to their needs without being forced or compelled to do so.”

    It all comes down to force, limiting it or allowing it. If the individual cannot have the freedom to make correct decisions how will it ever be known if he/she is following God’s message?

    As far as the Effendi quote I’m wondering what the content is of the surrounding text from that quote. If it stands alone then quite simply, he’s wrong. A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    Baquia: There are contradictions in the quotes provided (no big surprise there). Here is the most telling phrase IMO:

    “The rich too must be merciful to the poor, contributing from willing hearts to their needs without being forced or compelled to do so.”

    It all comes down to force, limiting it or allowing it. If the individual cannot have the freedom to make correct decisions how will it ever be known if he/she is following God’s message?

    As far as the Effendi quote I’m wondering what the content is of the surrounding text from that quote. If it stands alone then quite simply, he’s wrong. A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    Steve: Thank you for the welcome.

    For me the underlying premise of modern day liberalism is flawed. Liberalism must function on the notion that human nature is flawed and humans will not make correct decisions if left alone, therefore, gov’t needs to exist to force the individual to do the right thing.

    Let me know your thoughts.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    Steve: Thank you for the welcome.

    For me the underlying premise of modern day liberalism is flawed. Liberalism must function on the notion that human nature is flawed and humans will not make correct decisions if left alone, therefore, gov’t needs to exist to force the individual to do the right thing.

    Let me know your thoughts.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Ryan,
    your comments were almost lost due to an overzealous anti-spam measure. I’ve rescued everything I could but if there is one missing let me know.

    Thanks for the reply. Did you catch this from Abdu’l-Baha in the above quote?:

    “The remedy must be legislative readjustment of conditions.”

    What do you think that means?

    We know from the science of psychology that human nature is in fact “flawed” in that we do not always make the best decisions. Almost always our “lizard brain” wins out and then our frontal lobe hurriedly comes up with a pseudo-rational explanation of our choices.

    It isn’t a matter of government forcing anyone what to do but understanding that living in a society means that we are more than just a grouping of single persons. We are a community. Interconnected. This is what the Baha’i Faith teaches. That we are leaves of one tree. How can one branch be strong when the others are withering and dying? This is the new paradigm that humanity is awakening to more and more every day.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Ryan,
    your comments were almost lost due to an overzealous anti-spam measure. I’ve rescued everything I could but if there is one missing let me know.

    Thanks for the reply. Did you catch this from Abdu’l-Baha in the above quote?:

    “The remedy must be legislative readjustment of conditions.”

    What do you think that means?

    We know from the science of psychology that human nature is in fact “flawed” in that we do not always make the best decisions. Almost always our “lizard brain” wins out and then our frontal lobe hurriedly comes up with a pseudo-rational explanation of our choices.

    It isn’t a matter of government forcing anyone what to do but understanding that living in a society means that we are more than just a grouping of single persons. We are a community. Interconnected. This is what the Baha’i Faith teaches. That we are leaves of one tree. How can one branch be strong when the others are withering and dying? This is the new paradigm that humanity is awakening to more and more every day.

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    Hi Ryan,

    You wrote:[quote]For me the underlying premise of modern day liberalism is flawed. Liberalism must function on the notion that human nature is flawed and humans will not make correct decisions if left alone, therefore, gov’t needs to exist to force the individual to do the right thing.[/quote]

    I don’t get that notion from Wiki and, as I’ve said, I tend to reject political labels in favour of looking at the virtues people demonstrate.

    I also think that there are other big processes going on, such as globalisation and greater individuation, that don’t fit neatly into the existing political landscape and challenge our old notions of what does and doesn’t work. For example, there are nationalists and protectionists of all stripes, and I think none of them are responsing adequately to globalisation.

    Your understanding of “the underlying premise of modern day liberalism” seems to be what is called, perjoratively, “the nanny state” in New Zealand. I’m ambivalent. I think it’s clear that the market should be regulated, and I favour a mixed economy along the lines of Scandinavian or Australasian countries. But businesses and individuals can face huge and un-necessary compliance costs from a we-know-what’s best-for-you government bureaucracy, to an extent that the only business that’s growing is government, and government makes itself immune from its own restrictions. On the other hand, countries with weak controls face all kinds of environmental and social injustices, because individuals are not necessarily any better than collectives about doing the right thing. It’s about finding the right checks and balances.

    Tell us if we’re going off-topic, Baquia. :-)

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    Hi Ryan,

    You wrote:[quote]For me the underlying premise of modern day liberalism is flawed. Liberalism must function on the notion that human nature is flawed and humans will not make correct decisions if left alone, therefore, gov’t needs to exist to force the individual to do the right thing.[/quote]

    I don’t get that notion from Wiki and, as I’ve said, I tend to reject political labels in favour of looking at the virtues people demonstrate.

    I also think that there are other big processes going on, such as globalisation and greater individuation, that don’t fit neatly into the existing political landscape and challenge our old notions of what does and doesn’t work. For example, there are nationalists and protectionists of all stripes, and I think none of them are responsing adequately to globalisation.

    Your understanding of “the underlying premise of modern day liberalism” seems to be what is called, perjoratively, “the nanny state” in New Zealand. I’m ambivalent. I think it’s clear that the market should be regulated, and I favour a mixed economy along the lines of Scandinavian or Australasian countries. But businesses and individuals can face huge and un-necessary compliance costs from a we-know-what’s best-for-you government bureaucracy, to an extent that the only business that’s growing is government, and government makes itself immune from its own restrictions. On the other hand, countries with weak controls face all kinds of environmental and social injustices, because individuals are not necessarily any better than collectives about doing the right thing. It’s about finding the right checks and balances.

    Tell us if we’re going off-topic, Baquia. :-)

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    [quote comment=""]Tell us if we’re going off-topic, Baquia. :-)[/quote]

    I think you missed the left turn at Albuquerque

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    [quote comment=""]Tell us if we’re going off-topic, Baquia. :-)[/quote]

    I think you missed the left turn at Albuquerque

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="58369"]Wow, Craig! All I said was that I believe in individual liberty, and you automatically assume I’m a chickenhawk, warmonger. That’s a mighty big leap to make. Your assumptions about me are wrong, by the way.[/quote]

    I am glad to know you are not a chickenhawk warmonger then! The world of the last eight years and the current very sheltered insufferable version of the blind and rote imitation Baha’i Faith is now an ocean of chickenhawk warmongers it seems. Maybe that should be a a new Ruhi Course: “How to be a Chickenhawk Warmonger in the New Talking Head Theorist Class Baha’i Faith”. It has gotten on my nerves. Sorry. I apologize. But I have completely had it with these people. Especially in the now completely top down incredibly distant and effete theorist class Baha’i Faith. Glenford Mitchell’s incredibly thoughtless a**hole statement is why I left the Faith after 32 years. In my view there are just one too many Neocon chickenhawk warmonger theorist punks in the Baha’i Faith these days. Sorry if I took you and Ryan for being Baha’i William Kristols. Please accept my sincere apology then since you say you are not a chickenhawk warmonger. My bad.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="58369"]Wow, Craig! All I said was that I believe in individual liberty, and you automatically assume I’m a chickenhawk, warmonger. That’s a mighty big leap to make. Your assumptions about me are wrong, by the way.[/quote]

    I am glad to know you are not a chickenhawk warmonger then! The world of the last eight years and the current very sheltered insufferable version of the blind and rote imitation Baha’i Faith is now an ocean of chickenhawk warmongers it seems. Maybe that should be a a new Ruhi Course: “How to be a Chickenhawk Warmonger in the New Talking Head Theorist Class Baha’i Faith”. It has gotten on my nerves. Sorry. I apologize. But I have completely had it with these people. Especially in the now completely top down incredibly distant and effete theorist class Baha’i Faith. Glenford Mitchell’s incredibly thoughtless a**hole statement is why I left the Faith after 32 years. In my view there are just one too many Neocon chickenhawk warmonger theorist punks in the Baha’i Faith these days. Sorry if I took you and Ryan for being Baha’i William Kristols. Please accept my sincere apology then since you say you are not a chickenhawk warmonger. My bad.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="58387"]Steve: Thank you for the welcome.

    For me the underlying premise of modern day liberalism is flawed. Liberalism must function on the notion that human nature is flawed and humans will not make correct decisions if left alone, therefore, gov’t needs to exist to force the individual to do the right thing.

    Let me know your thoughts.[/quote]

    Ryan,

    With your top down uniform ideological viewpoint what is your position on the repealing of the Glass-Stiegel Act of 1933 ten years ago in 1998 that has led to the current world financial crisis due to the removal of the social engineering firewall between commercial banks, investment banks, securities dealers, and insurance companies? Let’s hear it.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="58387"]Steve: Thank you for the welcome.

    For me the underlying premise of modern day liberalism is flawed. Liberalism must function on the notion that human nature is flawed and humans will not make correct decisions if left alone, therefore, gov’t needs to exist to force the individual to do the right thing.

    Let me know your thoughts.[/quote]

    Ryan,

    With your top down uniform ideological viewpoint what is your position on the repealing of the Glass-Stiegel Act of 1933 ten years ago in 1998 that has led to the current world financial crisis due to the removal of the social engineering firewall between commercial banks, investment banks, securities dealers, and insurance companies? Let’s hear it.

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="58421"]
    With your top down uniform ideological viewpoint what is your position on the repealing of the Glass-Stiegel Act of 1933 ten years ago in 1998 that has led to the current world financial crisis due to the removal of the social engineering firewall between commercial banks, investment banks, securities dealers, and insurance companies? Let’s hear it.[/quote]

    Hi Craig,

    The repeal of the Glass Steagall Act in 1999 may well have helped lead to the world financial crisis, but it only applies to the US. New Zealand’s relatively tight banking regulations, as applied through the Reserve Bank, have kept our banks relatively unscathed. The relatively unregulated finance companies have seen a string of collapses.

    My point is that we’ve seen collapsing housing investment bubbles in, not only in the US, but in New Zealand, Ireland, England and Spain, and we’ve seen bank bail-outs in Europe. As an example of the extent of the financial transactions, the failed Halifax Bank of Scotland had investments in a NZ land development at Ngunguru, New Zealand that I’ve been fighting against.

    Financial systems and transactions are global, but the regulation is mainly national. That’s where a lot of the difficulties lie, I suspect.

    An instructive small-country perspective on the world financial crisis:

    Brian Easton
    Gareth Morgan (Best after 8 November)

    ka kite
    Steve

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="58421"]
    With your top down uniform ideological viewpoint what is your position on the repealing of the Glass-Stiegel Act of 1933 ten years ago in 1998 that has led to the current world financial crisis due to the removal of the social engineering firewall between commercial banks, investment banks, securities dealers, and insurance companies? Let’s hear it.[/quote]

    Hi Craig,

    The repeal of the Glass Steagall Act in 1999 may well have helped lead to the world financial crisis, but it only applies to the US. New Zealand’s relatively tight banking regulations, as applied through the Reserve Bank, have kept our banks relatively unscathed. The relatively unregulated finance companies have seen a string of collapses.

    My point is that we’ve seen collapsing housing investment bubbles in, not only in the US, but in New Zealand, Ireland, England and Spain, and we’ve seen bank bail-outs in Europe. As an example of the extent of the financial transactions, the failed Halifax Bank of Scotland had investments in a NZ land development at Ngunguru, New Zealand that I’ve been fighting against.

    Financial systems and transactions are global, but the regulation is mainly national. That’s where a lot of the difficulties lie, I suspect.

    An instructive small-country perspective on the world financial crisis:

    Brian Easton

    Gareth Morgan (Best after 8 November)

    ka kite
    Steve

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="58421"]

    Financial systems and transactions are global, but the regulation is mainly national. That’s where a lot of the difficulties lie, I suspect.

    An instructive small-country perspective on the world financial crisis:

    Brian Easton
    Gareth Morgan (Best after 8 November)
    [/quote]

    Steve,

    Thank you for these two links. I find Easton’s viewpoint most interesting. I am going to see what anyone here has to say from the smaller country viewpoint.

    My understanding from my research is that the real atomic chain reaction fear that has spread the crisis into the global financial system for BOTH large and small country alike is the terrifying fear of financial AIDS over the Credit Default Swaps (CDS’s) out there as potentially ticking atomic car bombs. No one is sure who holds these things and is exposed to a far greater danger than ANYONE KNOWS. What would be most effective in this situation: actual liquidity or the guarantee of liquidity? If push comes to shove and actual liquidity becomes necessary to make it through another 24 hour interval, then this guy Easton is right. Inflation and/or worst case stagflation will result leading, in my mind, to an equally as dangerous economic catastrophe.

    What I am trying to research, therefore, is how the Lehman Brothers settlement (on Thursday, October 20th I believe it was) on the CDS exposure was resolved. They settled a potentially devastating Lehman exposure of $455 Billion in Credit Default Swaps (CDS’s) losses for a manageable $6 Billion.

    How?

    The MSM (Main Stream Media) cover story here is the hedging positions of all of the various counter parties all cancelled out much of the incredible toxic exposure. Now it’s all “Nothing to see here, so just run along.”

    If this was all so simple the mechanism, then WHY did die hard “Chicago School” economic fundamentalists in the current totally ideologically obsessed Bush Administration start partially NATIONALIZING BANKS in the new “People’s Republic of Wall Street” where stock brokers now wear little Chairman Mao hats with red stars or dress like Che Guevara! Something smells fishy and a lot of both professional and citizen economists are out there doing detective work. But, it appears, nobody is talking! There is even LESS transparency in how this was done than in how the Baha’i Administrative Order actually works which no one has ever been able to figure out in my entire lifetime to date. What are the rules on how you settle Credit Default Swaps? Does every such case have a similar or potentially very different settlement profile? Some reports out there say there are going to be years of litigation on the Lehman bankruptcy for the unsecured creditors. What are the real facts? Someone should give an open account of how $455 Billion of catastrophic exposure was settled for $6 Billion because this mechanism may become very important very soon on a daily basis if dominoes start falling into each other. If this was so easy, why the September liquidity terror that the CDS’s would topple the entire world financial system?

    I say people are lying and there is, by some accounts, $255 Billion of toxic exposure in the Lehman bankruptcy still on the table that has been hushed up. Some feel there is some other factor in play that is being kept from the public.

    I am thinking that the real solution is to by International agreement declare ALL CDS contracts worldwide completely null and void. That is the real October 1917 solution and the bankers can all then start dressing like Karl Marx in his later days hanging out at the British Museum too as a nice policy arc. It will all be the new “in-thing” look on Wall Street. This move would take capital injection inflation fears out of the equation. So why not take a look at this remedy? Just outlaw these financial instruments and let everyone take them off their books. Corporate bonds insured by them that default will just have to be settled without them the old fashioned way. There is a precedent for outlaying some types of derivatives at least in British law since 1992.

    We are living in very, very strange times. To me this was all wrought by the deranged brain chemistry of brain dead completely thoughtless automaton ideologues who should never have been put in charge of ANYTHING, ANYWHERE on Earth. The potential catastrophic collapse of the lock step World Financial System, the Republican Party in the U.S., and the current version of the top down Orwellian NEW THINK Ruhiized Baha’i Faith worldwide are ALL examples of this amazing dysfunctional and completely mathematically self-defeating brain chemistry. I do feel that the ability to do rational critical thinking on a daily basis is now going to come back in favor very, very soon. Maybe as soon as NEXT WEDNESDAY MORNING here in the U.S.(!) Maybe Eric Hoffer will even become a popular read again even in remote villages across the planet.

    And, remember, the goal of “RUHI BOOK 1929″ which I will continue with AFTER the U.S. election, is for everyone here who finishes the class to LEND ME MONEY as part of the “practical exercise skill building workbook project”. All national currencies will be accepted.

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="58421"]

    Financial systems and transactions are global, but the regulation is mainly national. That’s where a lot of the difficulties lie, I suspect.

    An instructive small-country perspective on the world financial crisis:

    Brian Easton

    Gareth Morgan (Best after 8 November)
    [/quote]

    Steve,

    Thank you for these two links. I find Easton’s viewpoint most interesting. I am going to see what anyone here has to say from the smaller country viewpoint.

    My understanding from my research is that the real atomic chain reaction fear that has spread the crisis into the global financial system for BOTH large and small country alike is the terrifying fear of financial AIDS over the Credit Default Swaps (CDS’s) out there as potentially ticking atomic car bombs. No one is sure who holds these things and is exposed to a far greater danger than ANYONE KNOWS. What would be most effective in this situation: actual liquidity or the guarantee of liquidity? If push comes to shove and actual liquidity becomes necessary to make it through another 24 hour interval, then this guy Easton is right. Inflation and/or worst case stagflation will result leading, in my mind, to an equally as dangerous economic catastrophe.

    What I am trying to research, therefore, is how the Lehman Brothers settlement (on Thursday, October 20th I believe it was) on the CDS exposure was resolved. They settled a potentially devastating Lehman exposure of $455 Billion in Credit Default Swaps (CDS’s) losses for a manageable $6 Billion.

    How?

    The MSM (Main Stream Media) cover story here is the hedging positions of all of the various counter parties all cancelled out much of the incredible toxic exposure. Now it’s all “Nothing to see here, so just run along.”

    If this was all so simple the mechanism, then WHY did die hard “Chicago School” economic fundamentalists in the current totally ideologically obsessed Bush Administration start partially NATIONALIZING BANKS in the new “People’s Republic of Wall Street” where stock brokers now wear little Chairman Mao hats with red stars or dress like Che Guevara! Something smells fishy and a lot of both professional and citizen economists are out there doing detective work. But, it appears, nobody is talking! There is even LESS transparency in how this was done than in how the Baha’i Administrative Order actually works which no one has ever been able to figure out in my entire lifetime to date. What are the rules on how you settle Credit Default Swaps? Does every such case have a similar or potentially very different settlement profile? Some reports out there say there are going to be years of litigation on the Lehman bankruptcy for the unsecured creditors. What are the real facts? Someone should give an open account of how $455 Billion of catastrophic exposure was settled for $6 Billion because this mechanism may become very important very soon on a daily basis if dominoes start falling into each other. If this was so easy, why the September liquidity terror that the CDS’s would topple the entire world financial system?

    I say people are lying and there is, by some accounts, $255 Billion of toxic exposure in the Lehman bankruptcy still on the table that has been hushed up. Some feel there is some other factor in play that is being kept from the public.

    I am thinking that the real solution is to by International agreement declare ALL CDS contracts worldwide completely null and void. That is the real October 1917 solution and the bankers can all then start dressing like Karl Marx in his later days hanging out at the British Museum too as a nice policy arc. It will all be the new “in-thing” look on Wall Street. This move would take capital injection inflation fears out of the equation. So why not take a look at this remedy? Just outlaw these financial instruments and let everyone take them off their books. Corporate bonds insured by them that default will just have to be settled without them the old fashioned way. There is a precedent for outlaying some types of derivatives at least in British law since 1992.

    We are living in very, very strange times. To me this was all wrought by the deranged brain chemistry of brain dead completely thoughtless automaton ideologues who should never have been put in charge of ANYTHING, ANYWHERE on Earth. The potential catastrophic collapse of the lock step World Financial System, the Republican Party in the U.S., and the current version of the top down Orwellian NEW THINK Ruhiized Baha’i Faith worldwide are ALL examples of this amazing dysfunctional and completely mathematically self-defeating brain chemistry. I do feel that the ability to do rational critical thinking on a daily basis is now going to come back in favor very, very soon. Maybe as soon as NEXT WEDNESDAY MORNING here in the U.S.(!) Maybe Eric Hoffer will even become a popular read again even in remote villages across the planet.

    And, remember, the goal of “RUHI BOOK 1929″ which I will continue with AFTER the U.S. election, is for everyone here who finishes the class to LEND ME MONEY as part of the “practical exercise skill building workbook project”. All national currencies will be accepted.

  • http://www.sonjavank.blogspot.com sonja

    [quote comment=""]as for taking the right instead of the left at Albuquerque[/quote]

    Brian Easton picked me up hitch-hiking in the mid-80’s and he was such a good guy :) that had me over for dinner sometime later and even bought one of my prints.

    Being the illiterate bum i was in those days, i’d never heard of him before.

  • http://www.sonjavank.blogspot.com sonja

    [quote comment=""]as for taking the right instead of the left at Albuquerque[/quote]

    Brian Easton picked me up hitch-hiking in the mid-80’s and he was such a good guy :) that had me over for dinner sometime later and even bought one of my prints.

    Being the illiterate bum i was in those days, i’d never heard of him before.

  • http://www.sonjavank.blogspot.com sonja

    response to Ryan’s comments:
    [quote comment=""]
    A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.[/quote]

    hi Ryan, this sounds like something straight from Nozick who or perhaps it was some other libertarian said that “tax was theft”.

    Another approach to this argument is to think, it is really fair that someone with a diploma gets more pay than someone who works out all day in all weather? Is ‘brain-skill’ really more valuable than ‘physical skill’?
    Is if fair that someone gets to go to university for that diploma because their parents either can afford it, or because that person went to the ‘right’ primary or secondary school, or was born in the ‘right’ country?
    Is it fair that I was not born in the U.S, but in a country where as the eldest of a working-class family of nine children, even though I couldn’t go to university immediately, after 2 years of work, I could?
    I know that if I had have been born in the U.S. there is no way I could have gone to university, yet a libertarian view of this would be, that, providing opportunity via a system of tax, so that the state paid for providing the educational opportunities, is unfair. Unfair to whom?
    To those who would have had the opportunity to go to university anyway?
    To those who have more money, for whom the higher tax rate might mean economizing on that second home or second car, whereas for the one on the lower income it might mean being able to pay the rent and have money left over for the kids?
    Would this more or less fair?

    Of course, life is never fair, it is not fair that I was born in Aotearoa (new zealand), not fair that I was not born handicapped (well, some might debate that :), and so, but as Bahais I do think that we should aim towards a developing a society aimed for greater potential for opportunity and not leave it up to inherited inequalities to determine the opportunities any individual may have.

    Abdu’l-Baha certainly doesn’t think that tax is a theft:

    [quote comment=""]They must exert themselves to increase the loftiness of the dignity of kings, and give generously of their wealth and lives in support of the power of government and to increase the glory of the royal throne.

    For the benefit from this bargain, the fruits of this obedience are enjoyed by every citizen.
    All are partners and equals in the profits from this great boon, and the benefits of this noble station.
    Rights are mutual, dignities are reciprocal, and all are under the protection of the just Lord.[/quote]
    Abdu’l-Baha, “Sermon on the Art of Governance”
    http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/trans/vol7/govern.htm

    Taxes are in the end a form of solidarity. We all pay and contribute towards the society we part take in.
    If you look at this in material terms, which is the libertarian approach, then, the police would be protecting the wealthier more than the poorer, because it would the two or more cars and the mansion that would be protected, while all the poorer person has to benefit is having his or her rented appartment and collection of second-hand bicycles. I would say that a progressive tax system still benefits the wealthier more, so they should pay more, leaving aside the argument that in order to earn more, they have already had a greater benefit from their society to start with.

  • http://www.sonjavank.blogspot.com sonja

    response to Ryan’s comments:
    [quote comment=""]
    A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.[/quote]

    hi Ryan, this sounds like something straight from Nozick who or perhaps it was some other libertarian said that “tax was theft”.

    Another approach to this argument is to think, it is really fair that someone with a diploma gets more pay than someone who works out all day in all weather? Is ‘brain-skill’ really more valuable than ‘physical skill’?
    Is if fair that someone gets to go to university for that diploma because their parents either can afford it, or because that person went to the ‘right’ primary or secondary school, or was born in the ‘right’ country?
    Is it fair that I was not born in the U.S, but in a country where as the eldest of a working-class family of nine children, even though I couldn’t go to university immediately, after 2 years of work, I could?
    I know that if I had have been born in the U.S. there is no way I could have gone to university, yet a libertarian view of this would be, that, providing opportunity via a system of tax, so that the state paid for providing the educational opportunities, is unfair. Unfair to whom?
    To those who would have had the opportunity to go to university anyway?
    To those who have more money, for whom the higher tax rate might mean economizing on that second home or second car, whereas for the one on the lower income it might mean being able to pay the rent and have money left over for the kids?
    Would this more or less fair?

    Of course, life is never fair, it is not fair that I was born in Aotearoa (new zealand), not fair that I was not born handicapped (well, some might debate that :), and so, but as Bahais I do think that we should aim towards a developing a society aimed for greater potential for opportunity and not leave it up to inherited inequalities to determine the opportunities any individual may have.

    Abdu’l-Baha certainly doesn’t think that tax is a theft:

    [quote comment=""]They must exert themselves to increase the loftiness of the dignity of kings, and give generously of their wealth and lives in support of the power of government and to increase the glory of the royal throne.

    For the benefit from this bargain, the fruits of this obedience are enjoyed by every citizen.
    All are partners and equals in the profits from this great boon, and the benefits of this noble station.
    Rights are mutual, dignities are reciprocal, and all are under the protection of the just Lord.[/quote]
    Abdu’l-Baha, “Sermon on the Art of Governance”
    http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/trans/vol7/govern.htm

    Taxes are in the end a form of solidarity. We all pay and contribute towards the society we part take in.
    If you look at this in material terms, which is the libertarian approach, then, the police would be protecting the wealthier more than the poorer, because it would the two or more cars and the mansion that would be protected, while all the poorer person has to benefit is having his or her rented appartment and collection of second-hand bicycles. I would say that a progressive tax system still benefits the wealthier more, so they should pay more, leaving aside the argument that in order to earn more, they have already had a greater benefit from their society to start with.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Ryan, this article from Shiller mentions something interesting:

    Why do professional economists always seem to find that concerns with bubbles are overblown or unsubstantiated? I have wondered about this for years, and still do not quite have an answer. It must have something to do with the tool kit given to economists (as opposed to psychologists) and perhaps even with the self-selection of those attracted to the technical, mathematical field of economics. Economists aren’t generally trained in psychology, and so want to divert the subject of discussion to things they understand well. They pride themselves on being rational. The notion that people are making huge errors in judgment is not appealing.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Ryan, this article from Shiller mentions something interesting:

    Why do professional economists always seem to find that concerns with bubbles are overblown or unsubstantiated? I have wondered about this for years, and still do not quite have an answer. It must have something to do with the tool kit given to economists (as opposed to psychologists) and perhaps even with the self-selection of those attracted to the technical, mathematical field of economics. Economists aren’t generally trained in psychology, and so want to divert the subject of discussion to things they understand well. They pride themselves on being rational. The notion that people are making huge errors in judgment is not appealing.

  • p

    A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.
    ———————-
    How so? If you are a worker making minimum wage your rely on the roads provided by the government (through taxes) to get to your job and back home. And you may use those roads on occasion to see family/friends, etc. If you own a business, you rely on those roads to bring workers to you, goods to you, sell your goods, etc. I think those who make more money are also using the governments services more. Just my opinion. A graduated income tax is justice and fair, so I take offence at your “immoral” remark.

  • p

    A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.
    ———————-
    How so? If you are a worker making minimum wage your rely on the roads provided by the government (through taxes) to get to your job and back home. And you may use those roads on occasion to see family/friends, etc. If you own a business, you rely on those roads to bring workers to you, goods to you, sell your goods, etc. I think those who make more money are also using the governments services more. Just my opinion. A graduated income tax is justice and fair, so I take offence at your “immoral” remark.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.[/quote]

    This appears to assert that taxation itself is theft. Why bring the words “progressive” and “income” into it? While we’re at it, we might just as easily assert that all law undermines (or thieves) human freedom. What moral authority does the majority hold above the individual, if the majority is merely an accumulation of individuals? There you have it: anarchy. Have the courage to embrace it?

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.[/quote]

    This appears to assert that taxation itself is theft. Why bring the words “progressive” and “income” into it? While we’re at it, we might just as easily assert that all law undermines (or thieves) human freedom. What moral authority does the majority hold above the individual, if the majority is merely an accumulation of individuals? There you have it: anarchy. Have the courage to embrace it?

  • Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.[/quote]

    This appears to assert that taxation itself is theft. Why bring the words “progressive” and “income” into it? While we’re at it, we might just as easily assert that all law undermines (or thieves) human freedom. What moral authority does the majority hold above the individual, if the majority is merely an accumulation of individuals? There you have it: anarchy. Have the courage to embrace it?[/quote]
    Hello, nice to meet you strawman.

    I don’t recall advocating anarchy, however, I think it’s interesting that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them…Do you have the courage to embrace it?

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.[/quote]

    This appears to assert that taxation itself is theft. Why bring the words “progressive” and “income” into it? While we’re at it, we might just as easily assert that all law undermines (or thieves) human freedom. What moral authority does the majority hold above the individual, if the majority is merely an accumulation of individuals? There you have it: anarchy. Have the courage to embrace it?[/quote]
    Hello, nice to meet you strawman.

    I don’t recall advocating anarchy, however, I think it’s interesting that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them…Do you have the courage to embrace it?

  • Ryan Jenkins

    Craig Parke
    Re: Housing/Banking Crisis

    I always look at the root of these types of problems and it all stems from the Community Re-investment Act of 1977. Relining wasn’t used by banks to discriminate, it was used to limit risk. The gov’t should have never bullied them into doing away with the practice. The addition of the sub-prime aspect of it in 1995 opened the flood-gates then it was just a matter of some greedy bankers AND individual home owners to get us where we are today.

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    Craig Parke
    Re: Housing/Banking Crisis

    I always look at the root of these types of problems and it all stems from the Community Re-investment Act of 1977. Relining wasn’t used by banks to discriminate, it was used to limit risk. The gov’t should have never bullied them into doing away with the practice. The addition of the sub-prime aspect of it in 1995 opened the flood-gates then it was just a matter of some greedy bankers AND individual home owners to get us where we are today.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    sonja: As Bahai’s we know that we are “our brother’s keeper”, do we need gov’t to FORCE us to be?

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    sonja: As Bahai’s we know that we are “our brother’s keeper”, do we need gov’t to FORCE us to be?

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""][quote comment=""][quote comment=""]A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.[/quote]

    This appears to assert that taxation itself is theft. Why bring the words “progressive” and “income” into it? While we’re at it, we might just as easily assert that all law undermines (or thieves) human freedom. What moral authority does the majority hold above the individual, if the majority is merely an accumulation of individuals? There you have it: anarchy. Have the courage to embrace it?[/quote]

    Hello, nice to meet you strawman.

    I don’t recall advocating anarchy, however, I think it’s interesting that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them…Do you have the courage to embrace it?[/quote][/quote]

    Hi Ryan,

    Perhaps I did construct a straw man. What do you think of him? Is he offensive? I think he’s rather attractive. Shall we emulate him? immolate him? I confess that I am a bit of an anarchist myself, being a supporter of Thoreauvian civil disobedience. I simply wanted to know whether you consider yourself such a dangerous radical. Do you forfeit all of your moral authority to the majority, or do you reserve the moral authority to break any law?

    Your friend the anarchist,
    Dan

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""][quote comment=""][quote comment=""]A progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, therefore, immoral.[/quote]

    This appears to assert that taxation itself is theft. Why bring the words “progressive” and “income” into it? While we’re at it, we might just as easily assert that all law undermines (or thieves) human freedom. What moral authority does the majority hold above the individual, if the majority is merely an accumulation of individuals? There you have it: anarchy. Have the courage to embrace it?[/quote]

    Hello, nice to meet you strawman.

    I don’t recall advocating anarchy, however, I think it’s interesting that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them…Do you have the courage to embrace it?[/quote][/quote]

    Hi Ryan,

    Perhaps I did construct a straw man. What do you think of him? Is he offensive? I think he’s rather attractive. Shall we emulate him? immolate him? I confess that I am a bit of an anarchist myself, being a supporter of Thoreauvian civil disobedience. I simply wanted to know whether you consider yourself such a dangerous radical. Do you forfeit all of your moral authority to the majority, or do you reserve the moral authority to break any law?

    Your friend the anarchist,
    Dan

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="58523"]
    I don’t recall advocating anarchy, however, I think it’s interesting that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them…Do you have the courage to embrace it?[/quote]

    Hi Ryan,

    You have a point, in that both extremes – no government and big government – can lead to anarchy. However, what you need to face is that progressive taxation is mainstream policy:

    “Most tax systems around the world contain progressive aspects.”
    Progressive tax examples

    So, in arguing that progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, you are setting yourself well toward the “no government” end of the scale, whereas those who argue against your view are taking a middle course.

    ka kite
    Steve

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="58523"]
    I don’t recall advocating anarchy, however, I think it’s interesting that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them…Do you have the courage to embrace it?[/quote]

    Hi Ryan,

    You have a point, in that both extremes – no government and big government – can lead to anarchy. However, what you need to face is that progressive taxation is mainstream policy:

    “Most tax systems around the world contain progressive aspects.”
    Progressive tax examples

    So, in arguing that progressive income tax is nothing more than legalized theft, you are setting yourself well toward the “no government” end of the scale, whereas those who argue against your view are taking a middle course.

    ka kite
    Steve

  • Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""][quote comment="58523"]
    I don’t recall advocating anarchy, however, I think it’s interesting that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them…Do you have the courage to embrace it?[/quote]

    Hi Ryan,

    However, what you need to face is that progressive taxation is mainstream policy:

    “Most tax systems around the world contain progressive aspects.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax#Examples

    ka kite
    Steve[/quote]
    …so “mainstream” = correct? Face it, people like seeing the so called “rich” taxed more because they harbor a dislike for them.

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""][quote comment="58523"]
    I don’t recall advocating anarchy, however, I think it’s interesting that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them…Do you have the courage to embrace it?[/quote]

    Hi Ryan,

    However, what you need to face is that progressive taxation is mainstream policy:

    “Most tax systems around the world contain progressive aspects.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_tax#Examples

    ka kite
    Steve[/quote]
    …so “mainstream” = correct? Face it, people like seeing the so called “rich” taxed more because they harbor a dislike for them.

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    I think what we are talking about without realizing it is the Laffer Curve. Great video (if you have insomnia):

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    I think what we are talking about without realizing it is the Laffer Curve. Great video (if you have insomnia):

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="58525"]Craig Parke
    Re: Housing/Banking Crisis

    I always look at the root of these types of problems and it all stems from the Community Re-investment Act of 1977. Relining wasn’t used by banks to discriminate, it was used to limit risk. The gov’t should have never bullied them into doing away with the practice. The addition of the sub-prime aspect of it in 1995 opened the flood-gates then it was just a matter of some greedy bankers AND individual home owners to get us where we are today.[/quote]

    I assume you mean “redlining”.

    I have studied the facts and what you say is just not true. Nice try but it is just another garbled half truth right wing talking point. The banks that worked the CRA loans were REAL community banks that were much more conservative. The record shows that THEY were conservative lenders and actually turned down people for loans!

    The 1995 sub-prime component only went viral after the Wall Street lobbyists got what they wanted in the 1998 change of the Glass-Stiegel Act that caused the whole system to go into air guitar mode. The firewall between commercial banks, investments banks, securities dealers/market makers, and insurance companies. And, yes, BOTH Republicans are Democrats are responsible and many on BOTH sides should go to the guillotine too. As a good Baha’i I was always registered Independent. But as it all turned out after 37 years of membership the most incompetent and corrupt Republican or Democrat were hands down more effective in doing anything in the real world than anyone in the Baha’i Faith Administrative Order at trying to solve desperate problems.

    But if you study future chapters of Ruhi Book 1929 which I will start posting after I recover from the stress of this Election, I will show you that the “securities” mortgage component of the CDO’s are dangerous but they are not catastrophic. It is the “insurance” CDS’s component that is the nuclear weapon that can detonate and take down the financial system of the entire world at any time until they can be defused. It will take leadership and world cooperation between the banking system of all nations to do this. It must be done with great care. If it isn’t we are truly facing a second Great Depression or even worse. Once again, it is all completely over the heads of the BAO just like every other event of the 20th Century where the Faith completely missed the boat by not having any strength or chops on any level whatsoever.

    But hopefully everyone here can get up to speed by taking Ruhi Book 1929 and perhaps be able to follow the course of action that the world must take to try to help as best you can.

    And, again, at the end of the course everyone will be asked to lend me money as the “practical workbook exercise”.

    But nice try on the CRA argument! Oh, BTW, I bought my house in 1975 on one of the State/Federal combination mortgage programs that preceded the CRA Act of 1977. And I paid it off over the next 25 years!

  • Craig Parke

    [quote comment="58525"]Craig Parke
    Re: Housing/Banking Crisis

    I always look at the root of these types of problems and it all stems from the Community Re-investment Act of 1977. Relining wasn’t used by banks to discriminate, it was used to limit risk. The gov’t should have never bullied them into doing away with the practice. The addition of the sub-prime aspect of it in 1995 opened the flood-gates then it was just a matter of some greedy bankers AND individual home owners to get us where we are today.[/quote]

    I assume you mean “redlining”.

    I have studied the facts and what you say is just not true. Nice try but it is just another garbled half truth right wing talking point. The banks that worked the CRA loans were REAL community banks that were much more conservative. The record shows that THEY were conservative lenders and actually turned down people for loans!

    The 1995 sub-prime component only went viral after the Wall Street lobbyists got what they wanted in the 1998 change of the Glass-Stiegel Act that caused the whole system to go into air guitar mode. The firewall between commercial banks, investments banks, securities dealers/market makers, and insurance companies. And, yes, BOTH Republicans are Democrats are responsible and many on BOTH sides should go to the guillotine too. As a good Baha’i I was always registered Independent. But as it all turned out after 37 years of membership the most incompetent and corrupt Republican or Democrat were hands down more effective in doing anything in the real world than anyone in the Baha’i Faith Administrative Order at trying to solve desperate problems.

    But if you study future chapters of Ruhi Book 1929 which I will start posting after I recover from the stress of this Election, I will show you that the “securities” mortgage component of the CDO’s are dangerous but they are not catastrophic. It is the “insurance” CDS’s component that is the nuclear weapon that can detonate and take down the financial system of the entire world at any time until they can be defused. It will take leadership and world cooperation between the banking system of all nations to do this. It must be done with great care. If it isn’t we are truly facing a second Great Depression or even worse. Once again, it is all completely over the heads of the BAO just like every other event of the 20th Century where the Faith completely missed the boat by not having any strength or chops on any level whatsoever.

    But hopefully everyone here can get up to speed by taking Ruhi Book 1929 and perhaps be able to follow the course of action that the world must take to try to help as best you can.

    And, again, at the end of the course everyone will be asked to lend me money as the “practical workbook exercise”.

    But nice try on the CRA argument! Oh, BTW, I bought my house in 1975 on one of the State/Federal combination mortgage programs that preceded the CRA Act of 1977. And I paid it off over the next 25 years!

  • Ryan Jenkins

    Craig Parke:
    I don’t have the time deconstruct all that wind but here’s the bottom line – As usual, inept GOVERNMENT intervention is what CAUSED that whole problem, this is unassailable. You can’t make up your own facts.

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    Craig Parke:
    I don’t have the time deconstruct all that wind but here’s the bottom line – As usual, inept GOVERNMENT intervention is what CAUSED that whole problem, this is unassailable. You can’t make up your own facts.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    How much more “progressive” does the U.S. need to get?

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23856.html

    http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    How much more “progressive” does the U.S. need to get?

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/23856.html

    http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

  • Craig Parke

    Ryan,

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cusack/no-currency-left-to-buy-t_b_140250.html

    What say you?

    I also say R.I.P Studs Terkel.

    I once got a nice note from him.

    A fine, fine man.

  • Craig Parke

    Ryan,

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-cusack/no-currency-left-to-buy-t_b_140250.html

    What say you?

    I also say R.I.P Studs Terkel.

    I once got a nice note from him.

    A fine, fine man.

  • Craig Parke

    The power of the New World Age is now moving on to other peoples, other nations, and other spiritual movements because the Baha’is in their top down straight jacketed Borg ineptitude have run the Divine Power of the Cosmos once given to them right into the ground. So it is all now going to go to other souls.

    The Baha’is have maybe 15 people total knocking on doors at any given time in my state of PA after 87 years of the BAO while Great Depressions and Total World Wars come and go. The Obama Campaign had 300,000 volunteers knocking on a million doors here just last week alone because this was a critical battle ground state.

    The result as of 23:00 HOURS EST November 4th, 2008 while Glenford Mitchell travels around another day on Earth giving his Power Point Presentation on Shoghi Effendi to tiny captive audiences:

    Reactions Around The World (PHOTOS)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/04/reactions-around-the-worl_n_141187.html

  • Craig Parke

    The power of the New World Age is now moving on to other peoples, other nations, and other spiritual movements because the Baha’is in their top down straight jacketed Borg ineptitude have run the Divine Power of the Cosmos once given to them right into the ground. So it is all now going to go to other souls.

    The Baha’is have maybe 15 people total knocking on doors at any given time in my state of PA after 87 years of the BAO while Great Depressions and Total World Wars come and go. The Obama Campaign had 300,000 volunteers knocking on a million doors here just last week alone because this was a critical battle ground state.

    The result as of 23:00 HOURS EST November 4th, 2008 while Glenford Mitchell travels around another day on Earth giving his Power Point Presentation on Shoghi Effendi to tiny captive audiences:

    Reactions Around The World (PHOTOS)

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/04/reactions-around-the-worl_n_141187.html

  • Andrew

    The irony is incredible.

    The U.S. invades Iraq and topples its former ally Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti.

    Now it has an African-American president-elect whose middle name is Hussein.

    Would you like some karma with your fries?

  • Andrew

    The irony is incredible.

    The U.S. invades Iraq and topples its former ally Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti.

    Now it has an African-American president-elect whose middle name is Hussein.

    Would you like some karma with your fries?

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment=""]Now it has an African-American president-elect whose middle name is Hussein.[/quote]

    Don’t you also have a hugely unpopular outgoing president whose middle name is “Walker”?

    ka kite
    Steve

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment=""]Now it has an African-American president-elect whose middle name is Hussein.[/quote]

    Don’t you also have a hugely unpopular outgoing president whose middle name is “Walker”?

    ka kite
    Steve

  • Andrew

    Well, he’s not my president, because he’d have to be my prime minister first. ;-)

    But you might be onto something: the name “Walker” is at least as unlikely a name for a presidential candidate as “Hussein.” In fact, I think “Walker” might actually be Farsi for “Knobhead.”

  • Andrew

    Well, he’s not my president, because he’d have to be my prime minister first. ;-)

    But you might be onto something: the name “Walker” is at least as unlikely a name for a presidential candidate as “Hussein.” In fact, I think “Walker” might actually be Farsi for “Knobhead.”

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Well, he’s not my president, because he’d have to be my prime minister first. ;-)

    But you might be onto something: the name “Walker” is at least as unlikely a name for a presidential candidate as “Hussein.” In fact, I think “Walker” might actually be Farsi for “Knobhead.”[/quote]

    “Walker” is code in Texan for “roundhouse kick”:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pnFg0Sp2Xw

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Well, he’s not my president, because he’d have to be my prime minister first. ;-)

    But you might be onto something: the name “Walker” is at least as unlikely a name for a presidential candidate as “Hussein.” In fact, I think “Walker” might actually be Farsi for “Knobhead.”[/quote]

    “Walker” is code in Texan for “roundhouse kick”:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pnFg0Sp2Xw

  • Bird

    Well at least McCain and Palin and thier famlies got onto a ring for the entertainment of the Americans in our “contest” for a President. Being that I was a Nader / Gonzales supporter I am not all that thrilled with the outcome of the election.

    I again think the media chose the president and picked on McCain although I do admit some of his choices were way other there, I still am grateful to his service to America.

    When you think of the $$$,$$$,$$$,00 that went through Obama’s life you’d think he could spare a few bucks for his brother in Kenya… or more ethics in his standards of fund raisings, but oh well, he’s got the job.

    The “Walker” and “Hussein” jokes were pretty cool though, well put. You all have my prayers.

    Bird

  • Bird

    Well at least McCain and Palin and thier famlies got onto a ring for the entertainment of the Americans in our “contest” for a President. Being that I was a Nader / Gonzales supporter I am not all that thrilled with the outcome of the election.

    I again think the media chose the president and picked on McCain although I do admit some of his choices were way other there, I still am grateful to his service to America.

    When you think of the $$$,$$$,$$$,00 that went through Obama’s life you’d think he could spare a few bucks for his brother in Kenya… or more ethics in his standards of fund raisings, but oh well, he’s got the job.

    The “Walker” and “Hussein” jokes were pretty cool though, well put. You all have my prayers.

    Bird

  • Grover

    I don’t know about you guys, but this is probably the first time I’ve ever been excited about the outcome of a US election. Maybe I’m a victim of the media, but I think Barak Obama has real possibilities. I just hope he doesn’t get dragged down by all those who are pretty much entrenched in their tired old patriotic ways.

  • Grover

    I don’t know about you guys, but this is probably the first time I’ve ever been excited about the outcome of a US election. Maybe I’m a victim of the media, but I think Barak Obama has real possibilities. I just hope he doesn’t get dragged down by all those who are pretty much entrenched in their tired old patriotic ways.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]I don’t know about you guys, but this is probably the first time I’ve ever been excited about the outcome of a US election. Maybe I’m a victim of the media, but I think Barak Obama has real possibilities. I just hope he doesn’t get dragged down by all those who are pretty much entrenched in their tired old patriotic ways.[/quote]

    Grover, let’s just bear in mind that a thousand years haven’t elapsed yet. ;-) I admire Barack Obama, and I respect his political savvy as much as I mistrust it. I too am drooling at the possibilities, but 1) Obama may find that his worst enemy is his own hype, 2) he may have bit off what no man can chew, and 3) the American history of political violence, of course, keeps knocking at the door of my awareness.

    -Dan

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]I don’t know about you guys, but this is probably the first time I’ve ever been excited about the outcome of a US election. Maybe I’m a victim of the media, but I think Barak Obama has real possibilities. I just hope he doesn’t get dragged down by all those who are pretty much entrenched in their tired old patriotic ways.[/quote]

    Grover, let’s just bear in mind that a thousand years haven’t elapsed yet. ;-) I admire Barack Obama, and I respect his political savvy as much as I mistrust it. I too am drooling at the possibilities, but 1) Obama may find that his worst enemy is his own hype, 2) he may have bit off what no man can chew, and 3) the American history of political violence, of course, keeps knocking at the door of my awareness.

    -Dan

  • Andrew

    Barack Obama is the Chosen Vessel of the Maid of Heaven.

    He was elected on November 4th (Qudrat [Power]) one hundred and eighty-nine years after the birth of the Bab, and one hundred and ninety-one years after the birth of Baha’u’llah: elected at the midpoint of one hundred and ninety years (10 X 19) so he is the fulfillment of a prophetic cycle. Baraq (Baraka) means blessing in Arabic, as in the “Blessed Tablet of the Bell,” the Liberty Bell.

    It’s all so clear!

  • Andrew

    Barack Obama is the Chosen Vessel of the Maid of Heaven.

    He was elected on November 4th (Qudrat [Power]) one hundred and eighty-nine years after the birth of the Bab, and one hundred and ninety-one years after the birth of Baha’u’llah: elected at the midpoint of one hundred and ninety years (10 X 19) so he is the fulfillment of a prophetic cycle. Baraq (Baraka) means blessing in Arabic, as in the “Blessed Tablet of the Bell,” the Liberty Bell.

    It’s all so clear!

  • Grover

    [quote post="548"]Grover, let’s just bear in mind that a thousand years haven’t elapsed yet.[/quote]

    Hahaha, yes, but like many other quotes according to whatever UHJ or ITC member said, maybe it was put there to confound us? ;P Obama has inherited the biggest pile of crap in the history of humanity, it would take a genius to sort it all out.

    Ah well, who is planning to go on pilgrimage to the White House and pay their respects to the “Chosen Vessel of the Maid of Heaven”? At least we don’t need to book 7 years in advance and be a BIGS :)

  • Grover

    [quote post="548"]Grover, let’s just bear in mind that a thousand years haven’t elapsed yet.[/quote]

    Hahaha, yes, but like many other quotes according to whatever UHJ or ITC member said, maybe it was put there to confound us? ;P Obama has inherited the biggest pile of crap in the history of humanity, it would take a genius to sort it all out.

    Ah well, who is planning to go on pilgrimage to the White House and pay their respects to the “Chosen Vessel of the Maid of Heaven”? At least we don’t need to book 7 years in advance and be a BIGS :)

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    [quote comment="58617"]When you think of the $$$,$$$,$$$,00 that went through Obama’s life you’d think he could spare a few bucks for his brother in Kenya… or more ethics in his standards of fund raisings, but oh well, he’s got the job.[/quote]

    Bird,
    the money was donated to his campaign, not to him personally, so he doesn’t have discretion to spend it on himself like Palin who spent $200,000 or more on herself and her family to get clothes from Saks. Are you implying that Obama broke some ethics laws re fundraising? If so, can you provide some proof?

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    [quote comment="58617"]When you think of the $$$,$$$,$$$,00 that went through Obama’s life you’d think he could spare a few bucks for his brother in Kenya… or more ethics in his standards of fund raisings, but oh well, he’s got the job.[/quote]

    Bird,
    the money was donated to his campaign, not to him personally, so he doesn’t have discretion to spend it on himself like Palin who spent $200,000 or more on herself and her family to get clothes from Saks. Are you implying that Obama broke some ethics laws re fundraising? If so, can you provide some proof?

  • Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""][quote comment="58617"]When you think of the $$$,$$$,$$$,00 that went through Obama’s life you’d think he could spare a few bucks for his brother in Kenya… or more ethics in his standards of fund raisings, but oh well, he’s got the job.[/quote]

    Bird,
    the money was donated to his campaign, not to him personally, so he doesn’t have discretion to spend it on himself like Palin who spent $200,000 or more on herself and her family to get clothes from Saks. Are you implying that Obama broke some ethics laws re fundraising? If so, can you provide some proof?[/quote]
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/28/AR2008102803413_pf.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/22/us/22acorn.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""][quote comment="58617"]When you think of the $$$,$$$,$$$,00 that went through Obama’s life you’d think he could spare a few bucks for his brother in Kenya… or more ethics in his standards of fund raisings, but oh well, he’s got the job.[/quote]

    Bird,
    the money was donated to his campaign, not to him personally, so he doesn’t have discretion to spend it on himself like Palin who spent $200,000 or more on herself and her family to get clothes from Saks. Are you implying that Obama broke some ethics laws re fundraising? If so, can you provide some proof?[/quote]
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/28/AR2008102803413_pf.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/22/us/22acorn.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment=""]
    …so “mainstream” = correct?[/quote]

    No. I was responding to your apparent argument against progressive taxation – “that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them”. (As if progressive taxation adds to the sum total of laws.) Are you saying that most nations including the US are well along the road to anarchy, with just a few sensibly following a flat tax system?

    And those sensible non-anarchic countries would be:
    Bulgaria
    Albania
    Czech Republic
    Estonia
    Georgia
    Guernsey
    Kazakhstan
    Iraq – It is not clear how effectively the Iraqi tax is being collected in practice.
    Jersey
    Kyrgyzstan
    Latvia
    Lithuania
    Macedonia
    Mongolia
    Montenegro
    Mauritius
    Romania
    Russia
    Serbia
    Slovakia
    Ukraine
    Also:
    Transnistria, also known as Transnistrian Moldova or Pridnestrovie. [36] This is a disputed territory, but the authority that seems to have de facto government power in the area claims to levy a flat tax.

    Source: Wiki – Countries that have flat tax systems

    [quote]Face it, people like seeing the so called “rich” taxed more because they harbor a dislike for them.[/quote]

    Ad hominem.

    ka kite
    Steve

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment=""]
    …so “mainstream” = correct?[/quote]

    No. I was responding to your apparent argument against progressive taxation – “that the easiest road to anarchy is when a society has so many laws that at any one time each citizen is breaking one of them”. (As if progressive taxation adds to the sum total of laws.) Are you saying that most nations including the US are well along the road to anarchy, with just a few sensibly following a flat tax system?

    And those sensible non-anarchic countries would be:
    Bulgaria
    Albania
    Czech Republic
    Estonia
    Georgia
    Guernsey
    Kazakhstan
    Iraq – It is not clear how effectively the Iraqi tax is being collected in practice.
    Jersey
    Kyrgyzstan
    Latvia
    Lithuania
    Macedonia
    Mongolia
    Montenegro
    Mauritius
    Romania
    Russia
    Serbia
    Slovakia
    Ukraine
    Also:
    Transnistria, also known as Transnistrian Moldova or Pridnestrovie. [36] This is a disputed territory, but the authority that seems to have de facto government power in the area claims to levy a flat tax.

    Source: Wiki – Countries that have flat tax systems

    [quote]Face it, people like seeing the so called “rich” taxed more because they harbor a dislike for them.[/quote]

    Ad hominem.

    ka kite
    Steve

  • Ryan Jenkins

    Steve: That wasn’t my argument. I was pointing out the easiest way to reach a state of anarchy isn’t a absence of laws it’s an over abundance of them. My argument is simple, progressive taxation is immoral d/t the fact that it’s nothing more than unequal legalized theft. Greed is when you want someone else to do something for you not when you want to do something for yourself.

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    Steve: That wasn’t my argument. I was pointing out the easiest way to reach a state of anarchy isn’t a absence of laws it’s an over abundance of them. My argument is simple, progressive taxation is immoral d/t the fact that it’s nothing more than unequal legalized theft. Greed is when you want someone else to do something for you not when you want to do something for yourself.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Face it, people like seeing the so called �rich� taxed more because they harbor a dislike for them.[/quote]

    I figure people like taxing the rich because they figure the rich can afford it. Nothin’ personal.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Face it, people like seeing the so called �rich� taxed more because they harbor a dislike for them.[/quote]

    I figure people like taxing the rich because they figure the rich can afford it. Nothin’ personal.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]Face it, people like seeing the so called �rich� taxed more because they harbor a dislike for them.[/quote]

    I figure people like taxing the rich because they figure the rich can afford it. Nothin’ personal.[/quote]
    So society & gov’t has the right to decide who can “afford” it? and then force them to part with any perceived excesses?

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""][quote comment=""]Face it, people like seeing the so called �rich� taxed more because they harbor a dislike for them.[/quote]

    I figure people like taxing the rich because they figure the rich can afford it. Nothin’ personal.[/quote]
    So society & gov’t has the right to decide who can “afford” it? and then force them to part with any perceived excesses?

  • Bird

    Author: Baquia
    Comment:
    â€?When you think of the $$$,$$$,$$$,00 that went through Obama’s life you’d think he could spare a few bucks for his brother in Kenya… or more ethics in his standards of fund raisings, but oh well, he’s got the job.â€?

    Bird,
    the money was donated to his campaign, not to him personally, so he doesn’t have discretion to spend it on himself like Palin who spent $200,000 or more on herself and her family to get clothes from Saks. Are you implying that Obama broke some ethics laws re fundraising? If so, can you provide some proof?”

    – My dear brilliant Blog Developer and Literary Genius Baquia-
    You certainly can’t think those fashion frocks on Michelle are free, used hand-me-downs or last season Ross Clearance items do you? Common sense can see she is in-high class style, her hubby too. You also can’t think the Obama’s were not compensated for their selfless service in the �contest� for presidency really? do ya? or that Obama had no say in how his campaign money was spent and justfied? Perhaps those frocks were given to Michelle in exchange on loan from famous designers to market their brands now that she is a household name? Who knows? The BIG NEWS MEDIA NEVER TOOK NOTICE! They did share that her brother-in- law in Kenya earns $1.00 per month and lives in a slum, a 2:37 second blip of so. I certainly can’t imagine nor identify with being a multimillionaire and not aiding my brothers and sisters to better economic circumstances.

    And may you also take notice that it was the RNC that bought those frocks for Sarah for her image which back fired on them and brought undue attention to her. Sarah and John deserve all of our respect for their part in the �contest�

    There are some interesting blogs on how Obama raised the money, including a donation from John Galt, Adolph Hitler and many others, proof on the other hand will have to wait until an over sight is conducted on the general ledger. I won’t be holding my breath on that one…

    Just as I had to accept GW’s win, I will accept Obama’s win. ALL POLITITANS ARE CORRUPTABLE! I can’t wait to sit back and watch all the fire works for the next 4 years, WHOO HOO!

    As for the whole tax the rich concept because we can afford it, BS, we worked and risked for it. It is called the success penalty tax, the more you achieve the more you owe, boy that sounds fair… Let me work 20 hour days so I can pay for welfare to a able bodies who are too lazy to work, oh yea… sign me up!, wait, I already am and it wasn’t voluntary.

    Bird

  • Bird

    Author: Baquia
    Comment:
    â€?When you think of the $$$,$$$,$$$,00 that went through Obama’s life you’d think he could spare a few bucks for his brother in Kenya… or more ethics in his standards of fund raisings, but oh well, he’s got the job.â€?

    Bird,
    the money was donated to his campaign, not to him personally, so he doesn’t have discretion to spend it on himself like Palin who spent $200,000 or more on herself and her family to get clothes from Saks. Are you implying that Obama broke some ethics laws re fundraising? If so, can you provide some proof?”

    – My dear brilliant Blog Developer and Literary Genius Baquia-
    You certainly can’t think those fashion frocks on Michelle are free, used hand-me-downs or last season Ross Clearance items do you? Common sense can see she is in-high class style, her hubby too. You also can’t think the Obama’s were not compensated for their selfless service in the �contest� for presidency really? do ya? or that Obama had no say in how his campaign money was spent and justfied? Perhaps those frocks were given to Michelle in exchange on loan from famous designers to market their brands now that she is a household name? Who knows? The BIG NEWS MEDIA NEVER TOOK NOTICE! They did share that her brother-in- law in Kenya earns $1.00 per month and lives in a slum, a 2:37 second blip of so. I certainly can’t imagine nor identify with being a multimillionaire and not aiding my brothers and sisters to better economic circumstances.

    And may you also take notice that it was the RNC that bought those frocks for Sarah for her image which back fired on them and brought undue attention to her. Sarah and John deserve all of our respect for their part in the �contest�

    There are some interesting blogs on how Obama raised the money, including a donation from John Galt, Adolph Hitler and many others, proof on the other hand will have to wait until an over sight is conducted on the general ledger. I won’t be holding my breath on that one…

    Just as I had to accept GW’s win, I will accept Obama’s win. ALL POLITITANS ARE CORRUPTABLE! I can’t wait to sit back and watch all the fire works for the next 4 years, WHOO HOO!

    As for the whole tax the rich concept because we can afford it, BS, we worked and risked for it. It is called the success penalty tax, the more you achieve the more you owe, boy that sounds fair… Let me work 20 hour days so I can pay for welfare to a able bodies who are too lazy to work, oh yea… sign me up!, wait, I already am and it wasn’t voluntary.

    Bird

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    cue the video!

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    cue the video!

  • Craig Parke

    I’d like to thank that young lady for her service in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do you think she is a Baha’i from a Ruhiized Baha’i family?

  • Craig Parke

    I’d like to thank that young lady for her service in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do you think she is a Baha’i from a Ruhiized Baha’i family?

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="58631"]Steve: That wasn’t my argument. I was pointing out the easiest way to reach a state of anarchy isn’t a absence of laws it’s an over abundance of them.[/quote]

    I’m sorry Ryan. I didn’t realise you’d moved on to a new topic when you said that.

    It does seem to me that that the ideal state for anarchy to exist is for laws to be absent, rather than for them to be over-abundant. I have no good logical argument for this. it just seems self-evident. I accept that when laws are over-abundant, then respect for the law will suffer. But, to me, that’s a far cry from the total anarchy of a lawless state.

    [quote]My argument is simple, progressive taxation is immoral d/t the fact that it’s nothing more than unequal legalized theft.[/quote]

    That’s not an argument; it’s an assertion. I’m sure it seems self-evident to you, just like my lawlessness-being-the-ideal-state-for-anarchy-to-thrive assertion seems self-evident to me.

    Fortunately for you, many of the old communist states embrace your flat tax philosophy and you’ll find many kindred spirits there. Or in Iraq.

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="58631"]Steve: That wasn’t my argument. I was pointing out the easiest way to reach a state of anarchy isn’t a absence of laws it’s an over abundance of them.[/quote]

    I’m sorry Ryan. I didn’t realise you’d moved on to a new topic when you said that.

    It does seem to me that that the ideal state for anarchy to exist is for laws to be absent, rather than for them to be over-abundant. I have no good logical argument for this. it just seems self-evident. I accept that when laws are over-abundant, then respect for the law will suffer. But, to me, that’s a far cry from the total anarchy of a lawless state.

    [quote]My argument is simple, progressive taxation is immoral d/t the fact that it’s nothing more than unequal legalized theft.[/quote]

    That’s not an argument; it’s an assertion. I’m sure it seems self-evident to you, just like my lawlessness-being-the-ideal-state-for-anarchy-to-thrive assertion seems self-evident to me.

    Fortunately for you, many of the old communist states embrace your flat tax philosophy and you’ll find many kindred spirits there. Or in Iraq.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    Steve: Alright I’ll bite…
    The reason why “lawless” anarchy can’t exist is that in societies with no formal gov’t a hierarchy always develops where an individual or group imposes rules on a given sector of the population (eg. warlords in certain African countries). So while possible in theory, a true lawless anarchy can’t really exist.

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    Steve: Alright I’ll bite…
    The reason why “lawless” anarchy can’t exist is that in societies with no formal gov’t a hierarchy always develops where an individual or group imposes rules on a given sector of the population (eg. warlords in certain African countries). So while possible in theory, a true lawless anarchy can’t really exist.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    A little birdie told me:

    [quote comment=""]As for the whole tax the rich concept because we can afford it, BS, we worked and risked for it. It is called the success penalty tax, the more you achieve the more you owe, boy that sounds fair… Let me work 20 hour days so I can pay for welfare to a able bodies who are too lazy to work, oh yea… sign me up!, wait, I already am and it wasn’t voluntary.[/quote]

    Of course it was voluntary. Nobody made you pay those taxes. If you really believe in what you’re saying, Bird, walk your talk. Show us just how much it means to you, and I’ll respect you for demonstrating the courage of your convictions.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    A little birdie told me:

    [quote comment=""]As for the whole tax the rich concept because we can afford it, BS, we worked and risked for it. It is called the success penalty tax, the more you achieve the more you owe, boy that sounds fair… Let me work 20 hour days so I can pay for welfare to a able bodies who are too lazy to work, oh yea… sign me up!, wait, I already am and it wasn’t voluntary.[/quote]

    Of course it was voluntary. Nobody made you pay those taxes. If you really believe in what you’re saying, Bird, walk your talk. Show us just how much it means to you, and I’ll respect you for demonstrating the courage of your convictions.

  • Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""]A little birdie told me:

    [quote comment=""]As for the whole tax the rich concept because we can afford it, BS, we worked and risked for it. It is called the success penalty tax, the more you achieve the more you owe, boy that sounds fair… Let me work 20 hour days so I can pay for welfare to a able bodies who are too lazy to work, oh yea… sign me up!, wait, I already am and it wasn’t voluntary.[/quote]

    Of course it was voluntary. Nobody made you pay those taxes. If you really believe in what you’re saying, Bird, walk your talk. Show us just how much it means to you, and I’ll respect you for demonstrating the courage of your convictions.[/quote]
    HA! tell that to the IRS

  • http://none Ryan Jenkins

    [quote comment=""]A little birdie told me:

    [quote comment=""]As for the whole tax the rich concept because we can afford it, BS, we worked and risked for it. It is called the success penalty tax, the more you achieve the more you owe, boy that sounds fair… Let me work 20 hour days so I can pay for welfare to a able bodies who are too lazy to work, oh yea… sign me up!, wait, I already am and it wasn’t voluntary.[/quote]

    Of course it was voluntary. Nobody made you pay those taxes. If you really believe in what you’re saying, Bird, walk your talk. Show us just how much it means to you, and I’ll respect you for demonstrating the courage of your convictions.[/quote]
    HA! tell that to the IRS

  • Bird

    You know Dan, as an 8th generation American I had some sound patriotic upbringing. I remember when I was a young girl my grandfather shared that only decent citizens pay their taxes and that he hoped I would grow up a decent, tax paying American citizen. �Those who don’t pay taxes Bird leave the burden on those who do� James R, 1977…

    With that said, I have had my taxes taken out of my check automatically for 20+ years based on a federal law that requires employers to be tax collectors. 10 years ago I started my own business and things grew slow and I paid what I was told to pay, then when things went REALLY REALLY WELL, I was informed (congratulated-LOL) by my tax preparer that my income reached the highest level of taxation, yep, I am now in that 5% Obama is talking about. Now with me, admitting I am not all that great with numbers, didn’t know until I reached a certain income level that the taxes get higher with the more you make. Currently I am at a 51% tax bracket. That is 35% in Federal, 16% (combined) state. Now I have been told I could �fudge� my income to evade paying taxes, I’ve been counseled it is better to ask forgiveness then permission and then settle for a dime on a dollar, Constitutionalist have told me I do not have to pay anything at all… but I have chosen to take the moral high road in following the instructions of my grandfather and pay what my income level dictates by the government that makes the rules in which I do choose to stay a citizen of. But I certainly would say it a long stretch to call paying these inflated success taxes as �voluntary�.

    Did I vote to tax rich higher? No, but then, until I got there, with hard work and dedication, I had no idea what-so-ever what that idea even suggests. I see many people able bodied taking hand outs instead of getting a job. I’ve seen illegal aliens getting welfare because they birthed a baby in America. They are stay home moms living in HUD housing and getting food stamps while I birthed 3 babies in America and have worked my whole life but I never qualified for welfare, (dumb me I should have squatted, NEVER ASPIRED, I’d have a better tan and an excuse for all my problems). But alas, I’m just a lucky 9th grade drop out who seized an opportunity to become an entrepreneur, worked 20 hours a day 7 days a week to even reach the privilege of getting into that tax bracket that penalizes me for success.

    Dan, when and if you make it to that 5%, no disrespect assuming that you are not there now, we’ll talk about how �voluntary� it is to give most of it to taxes to a government who over spends or how it feels to be treated so �special� that you get to pay more because you put forth that extra effort! In the meantime, be assured that regardless of what I think is fair or not, I will continue to follow the law.

  • Bird

    You know Dan, as an 8th generation American I had some sound patriotic upbringing. I remember when I was a young girl my grandfather shared that only decent citizens pay their taxes and that he hoped I would grow up a decent, tax paying American citizen. �Those who don’t pay taxes Bird leave the burden on those who do� James R, 1977…

    With that said, I have had my taxes taken out of my check automatically for 20+ years based on a federal law that requires employers to be tax collectors. 10 years ago I started my own business and things grew slow and I paid what I was told to pay, then when things went REALLY REALLY WELL, I was informed (congratulated-LOL) by my tax preparer that my income reached the highest level of taxation, yep, I am now in that 5% Obama is talking about. Now with me, admitting I am not all that great with numbers, didn’t know until I reached a certain income level that the taxes get higher with the more you make. Currently I am at a 51% tax bracket. That is 35% in Federal, 16% (combined) state. Now I have been told I could �fudge� my income to evade paying taxes, I’ve been counseled it is better to ask forgiveness then permission and then settle for a dime on a dollar, Constitutionalist have told me I do not have to pay anything at all… but I have chosen to take the moral high road in following the instructions of my grandfather and pay what my income level dictates by the government that makes the rules in which I do choose to stay a citizen of. But I certainly would say it a long stretch to call paying these inflated success taxes as �voluntary�.

    Did I vote to tax rich higher? No, but then, until I got there, with hard work and dedication, I had no idea what-so-ever what that idea even suggests. I see many people able bodied taking hand outs instead of getting a job. I’ve seen illegal aliens getting welfare because they birthed a baby in America. They are stay home moms living in HUD housing and getting food stamps while I birthed 3 babies in America and have worked my whole life but I never qualified for welfare, (dumb me I should have squatted, NEVER ASPIRED, I’d have a better tan and an excuse for all my problems). But alas, I’m just a lucky 9th grade drop out who seized an opportunity to become an entrepreneur, worked 20 hours a day 7 days a week to even reach the privilege of getting into that tax bracket that penalizes me for success.

    Dan, when and if you make it to that 5%, no disrespect assuming that you are not there now, we’ll talk about how �voluntary� it is to give most of it to taxes to a government who over spends or how it feels to be treated so �special� that you get to pay more because you put forth that extra effort! In the meantime, be assured that regardless of what I think is fair or not, I will continue to follow the law.

  • Bird

    Baquia-

    I don’t think the young lady’s question was really answered, �Because we think they can afford it� does not justify it. Her father went to school for 13 years, paid to be educated and went to work. Interesting enough all those students in support of high taxes (clapping loudly) for the high earners may well understand the irony of the concept when they finish their 13 years, build a practice and find that they are shoveling most to the government, a point in their youth, as students, they thought was fair.

    Until you get there you really can’t imagine it. Mind you to reach the highest tax bracket in America you have to make roughly over 350K a year. Yea, McCain talked about special loop holes and tax lawyers but you are well into millions / billions to hire those types of hired guns to cut your taxes. I thought her comment of slavery was spot on!

    Bird

  • Bird

    Baquia-

    I don’t think the young lady’s question was really answered, �Because we think they can afford it� does not justify it. Her father went to school for 13 years, paid to be educated and went to work. Interesting enough all those students in support of high taxes (clapping loudly) for the high earners may well understand the irony of the concept when they finish their 13 years, build a practice and find that they are shoveling most to the government, a point in their youth, as students, they thought was fair.

    Until you get there you really can’t imagine it. Mind you to reach the highest tax bracket in America you have to make roughly over 350K a year. Yea, McCain talked about special loop holes and tax lawyers but you are well into millions / billions to hire those types of hired guns to cut your taxes. I thought her comment of slavery was spot on!

    Bird

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Dan, when and if you make it to that 5%, no disrespect assuming that you are not there now, we’ll talk about how �voluntary� it is to give most of it to taxes to a government who over spends or how it feels to be treated so �special� that you get to pay more because you put forth that extra effort! In the meantime, be assured that regardless of what I think is fair or not, I will continue to follow the law.[/quote]

    Bird, did progressive taxation exist when you set out to strike it rich? You must have known the rules of the game when you started. It seems a little disingenuous to whine about it now. If people strive for wealth in spite of progressive taxation, I think it’s pretty clear that the tax rates aren’t too progressive.

    The neat thing about many Americans, I imagine, is that they are so mindlessly materialistic that they hunger for the status of wealth no matter how high the price.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Dan, when and if you make it to that 5%, no disrespect assuming that you are not there now, we’ll talk about how �voluntary� it is to give most of it to taxes to a government who over spends or how it feels to be treated so �special� that you get to pay more because you put forth that extra effort! In the meantime, be assured that regardless of what I think is fair or not, I will continue to follow the law.[/quote]

    Bird, did progressive taxation exist when you set out to strike it rich? You must have known the rules of the game when you started. It seems a little disingenuous to whine about it now. If people strive for wealth in spite of progressive taxation, I think it’s pretty clear that the tax rates aren’t too progressive.

    The neat thing about many Americans, I imagine, is that they are so mindlessly materialistic that they hunger for the status of wealth no matter how high the price.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]HA! tell that to the IRS[/quote]

    Exactly my point, Ryan. I might not agree with the reasoning of every citizen who takes on the IRS, but it’s encouraging to see that there are those who don’t need an M16 in their hot little hands to demonstrate courage. What a nation of cowards we have become.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]HA! tell that to the IRS[/quote]

    Exactly my point, Ryan. I might not agree with the reasoning of every citizen who takes on the IRS, but it’s encouraging to see that there are those who don’t need an M16 in their hot little hands to demonstrate courage. What a nation of cowards we have become.

  • Bird

    Mr. Dan Jensen,

    I never sought to strike it rich, it has been a consequence to putting in that little extra every day, ya know what a bakers dozen is, try giving it to every one you meet? Where on earth would I have found the time or the inclination to even study tax law or for that matter the rules of the game what ever the game is? My highest earning before opening my business was 28K, nothing to be concerning about taxes with that level of income. As my compnay grew I hired people to help me. I stayed at 48K until 2006. As far as a disingenuous whine, nothing disingenuous about it, I know how much I �volunteered� to the government last year. As far as desiring wealth, I only desired to find a job with a boss with my integrity level and where I live with my vocation skills that was not easy to do 10 years ago. My fist goal was to make $1000.00 a month for rent, food and clothing for my growing family from my computer at home. Pretty modest goal for someone you think desired wealth.

    It was the â€?do good get goodâ€? that made my way to wealth and I don’t flash it I share it. When you want to talk where I â€?volunteerâ€? my money ask the Bah?’?­ Faith, ask the Food Bank, ask the Rotary Foundation, local soccer teams, teachers school supply wish list, the Children’s Justice Center…. Why not ask my (4) siblings who all have been assisted in securing their own homes and care for their children.

    My only desire was and still is to serve mankind to the utmost extent of my ability. If by the course of that goal I also am earning a living, what a bonus! My greatest wealth is not nor ever was money, it has been my love for God and serving His children. Try it out as a motive to your own success, it may alarm you and pleasantly surprise you to see what happens.

  • Bird

    Mr. Dan Jensen,

    I never sought to strike it rich, it has been a consequence to putting in that little extra every day, ya know what a bakers dozen is, try giving it to every one you meet? Where on earth would I have found the time or the inclination to even study tax law or for that matter the rules of the game what ever the game is? My highest earning before opening my business was 28K, nothing to be concerning about taxes with that level of income. As my compnay grew I hired people to help me. I stayed at 48K until 2006. As far as a disingenuous whine, nothing disingenuous about it, I know how much I �volunteered� to the government last year. As far as desiring wealth, I only desired to find a job with a boss with my integrity level and where I live with my vocation skills that was not easy to do 10 years ago. My fist goal was to make $1000.00 a month for rent, food and clothing for my growing family from my computer at home. Pretty modest goal for someone you think desired wealth.

    It was the â€?do good get goodâ€? that made my way to wealth and I don’t flash it I share it. When you want to talk where I â€?volunteerâ€? my money ask the Bah?’?­ Faith, ask the Food Bank, ask the Rotary Foundation, local soccer teams, teachers school supply wish list, the Children’s Justice Center…. Why not ask my (4) siblings who all have been assisted in securing their own homes and care for their children.

    My only desire was and still is to serve mankind to the utmost extent of my ability. If by the course of that goal I also am earning a living, what a bonus! My greatest wealth is not nor ever was money, it has been my love for God and serving His children. Try it out as a motive to your own success, it may alarm you and pleasantly surprise you to see what happens.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Bird, it appears that I misread you and I owe you an apology. It seemed by the way that you appeared to draw an equivalence between wealth and one’s contribution to society that you must see a kind of righteousness in wealth. It appeared that you have a belief that wealthy people work harder toward the betterment of society than others, and that 13 years in school means one has worked harder than anyone else. I’ve known people who linger in school because they cannot imagine taking a job.

    Not that I have a problem with wealth, but if one seeks to get it (not already having it), one generally has to play the game. I don’t think it takes a tax attorney to understand the basic layout of the American tax system, and I’m not saying it’s equitable, but it’s not hard to understand (unless you *really* want to play it). Maybe I just feel that way because I was raised by two business people who openly discussed tax strategies in front of their impressionable kids.

    All that said, I admire you for your industriousness. I’m sorry that the American tax system isn’t more fair to people that simply want to run a business.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    Bird, it appears that I misread you and I owe you an apology. It seemed by the way that you appeared to draw an equivalence between wealth and one’s contribution to society that you must see a kind of righteousness in wealth. It appeared that you have a belief that wealthy people work harder toward the betterment of society than others, and that 13 years in school means one has worked harder than anyone else. I’ve known people who linger in school because they cannot imagine taking a job.

    Not that I have a problem with wealth, but if one seeks to get it (not already having it), one generally has to play the game. I don’t think it takes a tax attorney to understand the basic layout of the American tax system, and I’m not saying it’s equitable, but it’s not hard to understand (unless you *really* want to play it). Maybe I just feel that way because I was raised by two business people who openly discussed tax strategies in front of their impressionable kids.

    All that said, I admire you for your industriousness. I’m sorry that the American tax system isn’t more fair to people that simply want to run a business.

  • Bird

    Ya know Dan- your apology accepted but not necessary, you don’t know me outside of a cyber blog name.

    Many people have wondered how a 9th grade drop out made it to #4 of top women owned business in my area, even greater the story was that my business was started with $200.00 in cash capital, perforated business cards, a thermal paper fax machine bought at a garage sale, and purchase of a computer instead of a car when I managed to save some $ by cleaning condo’s and working odd jobs. I’d like to share with you where I gained the knowledge to become a success, a term given to me by my peers not my bankers, came from reading books about bettering my life. I was started in my journey of reading self improvement books when I was first given a copy of �In search of excellence� Took me a very long time to get through that one.

    I read books about success and the science of it, none of the few but top books listed below teach you how to �make money� but they certainly teach you a lot on how to maximize your potential.

    1) In Search of Excellence
    2) 7 Habits of Highly Effective People
    3) How to win friends and influence people
    4) Unlimited Power
    5) PSI Seminars 5 & 7
    6) Who moved the cheese
    7) Think and Grow Rich
    8) The Richest Man in Babylon
    9) The Art of War
    10) Leadership secrets of Attila the Hun
    11) Speeches from great leaders – Vincent Lombardi, Abraham Lincoln, MLK, JFK, Gandi & Mother Theresa (to name a few)

    As far as bank balances go and taxes I leave that up to the professionals, I’m busy helping people. It is true my brother that success is a journey and not a destination, it is not measured by the money in your bank but by the glorious the memories of joyful moments in your heart. May your heart overflow with joy. As for me, I am headed to a waterfall to go and enjoy my greatest wealth, my family.

    Bird

  • Bird

    Ya know Dan- your apology accepted but not necessary, you don’t know me outside of a cyber blog name.

    Many people have wondered how a 9th grade drop out made it to #4 of top women owned business in my area, even greater the story was that my business was started with $200.00 in cash capital, perforated business cards, a thermal paper fax machine bought at a garage sale, and purchase of a computer instead of a car when I managed to save some $ by cleaning condo’s and working odd jobs. I’d like to share with you where I gained the knowledge to become a success, a term given to me by my peers not my bankers, came from reading books about bettering my life. I was started in my journey of reading self improvement books when I was first given a copy of �In search of excellence� Took me a very long time to get through that one.

    I read books about success and the science of it, none of the few but top books listed below teach you how to �make money� but they certainly teach you a lot on how to maximize your potential.

    1) In Search of Excellence
    2) 7 Habits of Highly Effective People
    3) How to win friends and influence people
    4) Unlimited Power
    5) PSI Seminars 5 & 7
    6) Who moved the cheese
    7) Think and Grow Rich
    8) The Richest Man in Babylon
    9) The Art of War
    10) Leadership secrets of Attila the Hun
    11) Speeches from great leaders – Vincent Lombardi, Abraham Lincoln, MLK, JFK, Gandi & Mother Theresa (to name a few)

    As far as bank balances go and taxes I leave that up to the professionals, I’m busy helping people. It is true my brother that success is a journey and not a destination, it is not measured by the money in your bank but by the glorious the memories of joyful moments in your heart. May your heart overflow with joy. As for me, I am headed to a waterfall to go and enjoy my greatest wealth, my family.

    Bird

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Bird, good for you! I’m glad that you succeeded. Out of curiosity, what is your business? If you prefer to not say, that’s fine of course.
    :)

  • http://www.bahairants.com Baquia

    Bird, good for you! I’m glad that you succeeded. Out of curiosity, what is your business? If you prefer to not say, that’s fine of course.
    :)

  • Craig Parke

    Bird,

    Nice to hear from you on here! As a business owner myself several times in my life I fully understand where you are coming from in your economic and political views but I think you are being a little too tough on Barack Obama on Day One. Give the man a chance on the economy. I think everyone is going to see something transformational here. Seventy years after the entitlement programs of the New Deal and their shocking abuse by BOTH political parties in power since then, we have come to the brink of economic collapse. What is the difference between tax and spend and borrow and spend in the end? Both mindsets have destroyed the seed corn. We are going to have to reinvent capitalism now because this situation is far, far, far worse than people yet fully grasp worldwide. I think we can do it just in the nick of time. I hope so. because there is no safety net.

    If the Baha’is had ever been real players in the world over the last 86 years and actually gotten something done, they could be an actual factor now. At least help unload government cheese in an organized way out of the back of deuce and a half army trucks. But, alas, it was not to be.

    Something very interesting happened in his well run campaign. It was BOTTOM UP! I say the powers of the World Age are BOTTOM UP and not TOP DOWN. I myself actually believe that Baha’u’llah actually taught this truth although it is no longer part of His own organization now. The PTB in the BF would do well to study Barack Obama’s ground game and compare it to their own ground game and try to learn something. But I know that will never happen. No one in the Baha’i Faith is permitted to think anymore. They also might study the changes that are going on with the “religious right” in the U.S. which is now a very close cousin to the Baha’i Faith in the current mentality. Birds of a feather sometimes flock together and some make very good mine canaries in pairs. I hope somebody has some game in Haifa and is paying attention.

    So I say, give it some time yet, there are many cosmic revelations in a careful analysis of what has happened in the U.S.

    [b]November 7, 2008 (Post Election Analysys)[/b]

    [i][b]I just posted this on Huffington Post to an article by Jim Wallis Editor-in-Chief of Sojourners.[/b][/i]

    [b]A New Faith Coalition[/b]

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-wallis/a-new-faith-coalition_b_142199.html

    [i][b]This was my comment:[/b][/i]

    [b]WRONG.[/b] If you want to get some [b]REAL SPIRITUAL INSIGHT[/b] and start writing some actual insightful pieces for Sojourners I suggest you start reading Richard Tarnas.

    The Passion of the Western Mind: Understanding the Ideas that Have Shaped Our World View
    by Richard Tarnas
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n21_v43/ai_11597179

    Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New World View
    by Richard Tarnas
    http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/

    Spiritually and psychologically as systems of human personality there is not a dimes worth of difference between fundamentalist Taliban Christians, fundamentalist Taliban Muslims, fundamentalist Taliban Jews, fundamentalist Taliban Republicans, and fundamentalist Taliban Chicago School Economists. All have the same straight jacketed brain chemistry of completely unoriginal obsessive-compulsive ideologues not thinking outside the box. All are now going to go to the same astonishing end as the planes of consciousness shift. Your analysis is nice but it is a [b]totally conventional[/b] (yawn) and thereby [b]merely superficial[/b] analysis. There is something much deeper and much more mysterious going on. I suggest you read these two books ASAP. The big factor now is a change in consciousness COMBINED with the power of planetary communication via the Internet. This time it is going to get very, very interesting. It started out with long time Reagan Republican ideologues partially nationalizing banks as the new Financial Politburo Red Comintern! Now [b]THAT[/b] is something new and original! Fasten your seat belts.

    The times they are a chang’in.
    —————————————

    So remember all you folks here on Baquia’s blog that every day a Credit Default Swap financial nuclear explosion does not happen somewhere in the world, is another day governments everywhere can try to learn something and re-think everything. If our guys in Haifa have it all figured out, they can offer economic guidance on how to realign the U.S. Federal Reserve System with the Private banks in a more effective way too. Maybe some good analysis on the Panic of 1907 that led to the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913 would help too. Our guys have it all figured out, right? Everyone here has it all figured out, right? Ryan Jenkins, you have it all figured out, right? If so, let’s hear it. Let’s hear your plan. And, remember, Ron Paul is from Pittsburgh and I have a lot of insight into his thought processes from his development in this region because I grew up here too.

  • Craig Parke

    Bird,

    Nice to hear from you on here! As a business owner myself several times in my life I fully understand where you are coming from in your economic and political views but I think you are being a little too tough on Barack Obama on Day One. Give the man a chance on the economy. I think everyone is going to see something transformational here. Seventy years after the entitlement programs of the New Deal and their shocking abuse by BOTH political parties in power since then, we have come to the brink of economic collapse. What is the difference between tax and spend and borrow and spend in the end? Both mindsets have destroyed the seed corn. We are going to have to reinvent capitalism now because this situation is far, far, far worse than people yet fully grasp worldwide. I think we can do it just in the nick of time. I hope so. because there is no safety net.

    If the Baha’is had ever been real players in the world over the last 86 years and actually gotten something done, they could be an actual factor now. At least help unload government cheese in an organized way out of the back of deuce and a half army trucks. But, alas, it was not to be.

    Something very interesting happened in his well run campaign. It was BOTTOM UP! I say the powers of the World Age are BOTTOM UP and not TOP DOWN. I myself actually believe that Baha’u’llah actually taught this truth although it is no longer part of His own organization now. The PTB in the BF would do well to study Barack Obama’s ground game and compare it to their own ground game and try to learn something. But I know that will never happen. No one in the Baha’i Faith is permitted to think anymore. They also might study the changes that are going on with the “religious right” in the U.S. which is now a very close cousin to the Baha’i Faith in the current mentality. Birds of a feather sometimes flock together and some make very good mine canaries in pairs. I hope somebody has some game in Haifa and is paying attention.

    So I say, give it some time yet, there are many cosmic revelations in a careful analysis of what has happened in the U.S.

    [b]November 7, 2008 (Post Election Analysys)[/b]

    [i][b]I just posted this on Huffington Post to an article by Jim Wallis Editor-in-Chief of Sojourners.[/b][/i]

    [b]A New Faith Coalition[/b]

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-wallis/a-new-faith-coalition_b_142199.html

    [i][b]This was my comment:[/b][/i]

    [b]WRONG.[/b] If you want to get some [b]REAL SPIRITUAL INSIGHT[/b] and start writing some actual insightful pieces for Sojourners I suggest you start reading Richard Tarnas.

    The Passion of the Western Mind: Understanding the Ideas that Have Shaped Our World View
    by Richard Tarnas
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n21_v43/ai_11597179

    Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New World View
    by Richard Tarnas
    http://www.cosmosandpsyche.com/

    Spiritually and psychologically as systems of human personality there is not a dimes worth of difference between fundamentalist Taliban Christians, fundamentalist Taliban Muslims, fundamentalist Taliban Jews, fundamentalist Taliban Republicans, and fundamentalist Taliban Chicago School Economists. All have the same straight jacketed brain chemistry of completely unoriginal obsessive-compulsive ideologues not thinking outside the box. All are now going to go to the same astonishing end as the planes of consciousness shift. Your analysis is nice but it is a [b]totally conventional[/b] (yawn) and thereby [b]merely superficial[/b] analysis. There is something much deeper and much more mysterious going on. I suggest you read these two books ASAP. The big factor now is a change in consciousness COMBINED with the power of planetary communication via the Internet. This time it is going to get very, very interesting. It started out with long time Reagan Republican ideologues partially nationalizing banks as the new Financial Politburo Red Comintern! Now [b]THAT[/b] is something new and original! Fasten your seat belts.

    The times they are a chang’in.
    —————————————

    So remember all you folks here on Baquia’s blog that every day a Credit Default Swap financial nuclear explosion does not happen somewhere in the world, is another day governments everywhere can try to learn something and re-think everything. If our guys in Haifa have it all figured out, they can offer economic guidance on how to realign the U.S. Federal Reserve System with the Private banks in a more effective way too. Maybe some good analysis on the Panic of 1907 that led to the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913 would help too. Our guys have it all figured out, right? Everyone here has it all figured out, right? Ryan Jenkins, you have it all figured out, right? If so, let’s hear it. Let’s hear your plan. And, remember, Ron Paul is from Pittsburgh and I have a lot of insight into his thought processes from his development in this region because I grew up here too.

  • Bird

    Hello my Brother Craig-

    I’ve already asked my blood brother to send me an Obama 08’ shirt, might as well join the party! I’m not down on Barack, good for him, he made his dreams real and Dan talk about knowing the rules to the game to get there..lol. Neither prime candidate had my vote. I was Nader to the end, but then I guess the idea of a candidate asking senate to impeach a current president isn’t going to get him the right political attention.

    I had such a lovely day Craig, kayaking in a fern grotto, watching dragon flies, finches, cardinals, listening to the wing blow through vines, growing without interruption intertwining between trees. Having my kids splash, play and search for wood to build a bon fire. At sunset I watched hundreds of white birds nestle on a mountain side, it was so majestic seeing them fly in unison and land effortlessly on the green backdrop, truly breath taking. Looking up I felt as though I was on the axel of the world as the clouds blew overhead. Priceless!

    Baquia- I am in Human Resources. I am a Recruiter, Strategic Resource Partner, Regional Business Developer, and Human Capital Consultant. I would certainly recommend your talent for sure!

  • Bird

    Hello my Brother Craig-

    I’ve already asked my blood brother to send me an Obama 08’ shirt, might as well join the party! I’m not down on Barack, good for him, he made his dreams real and Dan talk about knowing the rules to the game to get there..lol. Neither prime candidate had my vote. I was Nader to the end, but then I guess the idea of a candidate asking senate to impeach a current president isn’t going to get him the right political attention.

    I had such a lovely day Craig, kayaking in a fern grotto, watching dragon flies, finches, cardinals, listening to the wing blow through vines, growing without interruption intertwining between trees. Having my kids splash, play and search for wood to build a bon fire. At sunset I watched hundreds of white birds nestle on a mountain side, it was so majestic seeing them fly in unison and land effortlessly on the green backdrop, truly breath taking. Looking up I felt as though I was on the axel of the world as the clouds blew overhead. Priceless!

    Baquia- I am in Human Resources. I am a Recruiter, Strategic Resource Partner, Regional Business Developer, and Human Capital Consultant. I would certainly recommend your talent for sure!

  • Bird

    Craig wanna know something even cooler about my day other then the majesty of the place, or at least at the top? On the long ride there we went without radio range I sang songs from my childhood to my kids, one my father used to sing to me in the 70’s , hadn’t sung that song or even heard it in years but it just came out, the kids seemed surprised I had it in me… Here it is in it’s finest, and may it be shared by all, James Taylor, You’ve got a friend, 1971 recording with Carole King:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vY1peG8gHQ

    Dan – on account of our exchange it made me think of a song my mother used to sing to me, I belt that one out good for my son’s and boy did they take notice to the passion of these lyrics, I’ve located it for you, Helen Reddy, I am woman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef5uEPH6y8Y

    And Baquia you may be pleased to know that in honor of the buzz in my car about our new president being a black American, I sang this one, Ebony & Ivory, Paul McCartney & Stevie Wonder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZtiJN6yiik

    All the recording are old but I do hope you enjoy!

  • Bird

    Craig wanna know something even cooler about my day other then the majesty of the place, or at least at the top? On the long ride there we went without radio range I sang songs from my childhood to my kids, one my father used to sing to me in the 70’s , hadn’t sung that song or even heard it in years but it just came out, the kids seemed surprised I had it in me… Here it is in it’s finest, and may it be shared by all, James Taylor, You’ve got a friend, 1971 recording with Carole King:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vY1peG8gHQ

    Dan – on account of our exchange it made me think of a song my mother used to sing to me, I belt that one out good for my son’s and boy did they take notice to the passion of these lyrics, I’ve located it for you, Helen Reddy, I am woman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef5uEPH6y8Y

    And Baquia you may be pleased to know that in honor of the buzz in my car about our new president being a black American, I sang this one, Ebony & Ivory, Paul McCartney & Stevie Wonder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZtiJN6yiik

    All the recording are old but I do hope you enjoy!

  • Bird

    Ryan- Thanks for the post on the $$$ fun with the Obama. I’ve located a youtube for you too, one of my person fav’s: peace train, Yusuf, Cat Stevens..;)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7iLPnDCQ1g&feature=related

  • Bird

    Ryan- Thanks for the post on the $$$ fun with the Obama. I’ve located a youtube for you too, one of my person fav’s: peace train, Yusuf, Cat Stevens..;)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7iLPnDCQ1g&feature=related

  • Andrew

    Check out:

    http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2008/11/pluralists-nine-theses.html

    “As such it becomes very difficult to talk about incarnations and manifestations of God, except from constructs of traditions and narratives. Each has its own inner sense but loses external force. Christology may be understood from the inside, but history as a means of knowledge has no time for the closed heremeneutic circles that seek to preserve Christologies from open scrutiny. In the end there is no protection for a doctrinal Christ, and the Jesus of history cannot be entered into a relative ethics race with others. Jesus can be understood for his ethical reversals and his immediacy of action, but much of his thought world is limited to his own time and does not translate well – even when facing nuclear and ecological threats. Jesus as the Christ of tradition is presented as one who lived a life of compassion and ultimate service, that people can approach voluntarily and critically as a guide and pathmaker along with others of inspiration.”

  • Andrew

    Check out:

    http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2008/11/pluralists-nine-theses.html

    “As such it becomes very difficult to talk about incarnations and manifestations of God, except from constructs of traditions and narratives. Each has its own inner sense but loses external force. Christology may be understood from the inside, but history as a means of knowledge has no time for the closed heremeneutic circles that seek to preserve Christologies from open scrutiny. In the end there is no protection for a doctrinal Christ, and the Jesus of history cannot be entered into a relative ethics race with others. Jesus can be understood for his ethical reversals and his immediacy of action, but much of his thought world is limited to his own time and does not translate well – even when facing nuclear and ecological threats. Jesus as the Christ of tradition is presented as one who lived a life of compassion and ultimate service, that people can approach voluntarily and critically as a guide and pathmaker along with others of inspiration.”

  • Bird

    Andrew that was an interesting read, ty for posting. Pluraist were not listed on the hate sign but we can put the theories into the �liberal� category. The blogger you posted is on a path to what I am concluding myself in my own way.

    I’m concluding, and you’ve read my osmosis since withdrawing from the BF in Feb., that God is more tacit then articulate and the more articulate one becomes on the subject of God and Manifestations the more obstructed one comes from what God really is; a natural force of collective infinite elements. Just as I gazed at the natural existence of a fern growing without interruption, functioning at it’s fullest capacity, in an environment that allows it to stretch to amazing lengths of growth, I’ve seen what happens to them when they are obstructed, deprived, or genocide with chemicals or man made diseases. It either dies or creates a mutation adaptable to the circumstances of it’s environment. Our whole planet has been obstructed for centuries and the mutations that go beyond a google answer. I conclude that �religion� in any formation is a mutation and not natural what-so-ever in any form and the person wearing the sign proves it!

    This blog was originally about a sign with the word Bah?’?­ misspelled as a group or individual that believes in the â€?devilâ€?, I’m listed on there too under â€?loud mouth womenâ€?. You posed a question of bonus points Baquia for who might guess what P.K’s means. When I first looked at it I noticed it did not list â€?Jewsâ€? and that is probably because people of this person’s particular lower level of sophistication would refer to them using a term too long for a two column board. The bearer of the sign is a true example of mutated brain indoctrination indeed, but does he/she think he/she is mutated or that there is anything wrong with their beliefs? No way and what’s more that’s our brother or sister from another mother wearing it. Once inside a mutation everything within it considers it’s natural, completely unaware of the mutation. Religion = Mutation.

    Dan I left out a book of particular importance, the first non-catholic book I read given to me by my father after I watched him read it, I think I was 9 years old, Zen Bones Zen Now, there is an incredible view of life through Zen and an introduction to �koans�. What is the sound of one hand clapping? Another about a man running for his life from a man eating tiger and a cliff, certain death, hanging by a branch with the viscous tiger wanting dinner and the drop to death below, to his right he notices a plump ripe strawberry growing within hands reach… I think one of the best is the one with the student who goes to a master for knowledge and ends up with tea all over the place… I often confuse people when I tell them my cup is half empty and they think I’ve got it backward, and it should be half full…

  • Bird

    Andrew that was an interesting read, ty for posting. Pluraist were not listed on the hate sign but we can put the theories into the �liberal� category. The blogger you posted is on a path to what I am concluding myself in my own way.

    I’m concluding, and you’ve read my osmosis since withdrawing from the BF in Feb., that God is more tacit then articulate and the more articulate one becomes on the subject of God and Manifestations the more obstructed one comes from what God really is; a natural force of collective infinite elements. Just as I gazed at the natural existence of a fern growing without interruption, functioning at it’s fullest capacity, in an environment that allows it to stretch to amazing lengths of growth, I’ve seen what happens to them when they are obstructed, deprived, or genocide with chemicals or man made diseases. It either dies or creates a mutation adaptable to the circumstances of it’s environment. Our whole planet has been obstructed for centuries and the mutations that go beyond a google answer. I conclude that �religion� in any formation is a mutation and not natural what-so-ever in any form and the person wearing the sign proves it!

    This blog was originally about a sign with the word Bah?’?­ misspelled as a group or individual that believes in the â€?devilâ€?, I’m listed on there too under â€?loud mouth womenâ€?. You posed a question of bonus points Baquia for who might guess what P.K’s means. When I first looked at it I noticed it did not list â€?Jewsâ€? and that is probably because people of this person’s particular lower level of sophistication would refer to them using a term too long for a two column board. The bearer of the sign is a true example of mutated brain indoctrination indeed, but does he/she think he/she is mutated or that there is anything wrong with their beliefs? No way and what’s more that’s our brother or sister from another mother wearing it. Once inside a mutation everything within it considers it’s natural, completely unaware of the mutation. Religion = Mutation.

    Dan I left out a book of particular importance, the first non-catholic book I read given to me by my father after I watched him read it, I think I was 9 years old, Zen Bones Zen Now, there is an incredible view of life through Zen and an introduction to �koans�. What is the sound of one hand clapping? Another about a man running for his life from a man eating tiger and a cliff, certain death, hanging by a branch with the viscous tiger wanting dinner and the drop to death below, to his right he notices a plump ripe strawberry growing within hands reach… I think one of the best is the one with the student who goes to a master for knowledge and ends up with tea all over the place… I often confuse people when I tell them my cup is half empty and they think I’ve got it backward, and it should be half full…

  • Darcy

    Ever heard the term “Atheist Baha’i” I’m one of them now, guess i’m going to hell lol

  • Darcy

    Ever heard the term “Atheist Baha’i” I’m one of them now, guess i’m going to hell lol

  • http://blog.kaweah.com Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Ever heard the term “Atheist Baha’i” I’m one of them now, guess i’m going to hell lol[/quote]

    Hi Darcy. I’ve heard the term a number of times, and I suppose it applies to me as well, if by it is meant a Baha’i (by whatever definition) who has decided that Baha’u’llah is a genuine Manifestation of a myth (a construct of the imagination).

    -Dan

  • http://blog.kaweah.com Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Ever heard the term “Atheist Baha’i” I’m one of them now, guess i’m going to hell lol[/quote]

    Hi Darcy. I’ve heard the term a number of times, and I suppose it applies to me as well, if by it is meant a Baha’i (by whatever definition) who has decided that Baha’u’llah is a genuine Manifestation of a myth (a construct of the imagination).

    -Dan

  • Andrew

    “Baha’u’llah is a genuine Manifestation of a myth (a construct of the imagination).”

    Or is Baha’u’llah the genuine Myth of the Manifestation within the imagination of the construct? ;-)

    “Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths.” – Joseph Campbell

  • Andrew

    “Baha’u’llah is a genuine Manifestation of a myth (a construct of the imagination).”

    Or is Baha’u’llah the genuine Myth of the Manifestation within the imagination of the construct? ;-)

    “Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths.” – Joseph Campbell

  • Bird

    :) nice one Andrew.

    Bird

  • Bird

    :) nice one Andrew.

    Bird

  • Andrew

    Actually, Bird, I was being Very Serious …

    I think the Myth of Baha’u’llah, not unlike the Myth of God Incarnate, is far more important than Baha’u’llah himself. Whether he really was the Manifestation of God or simply (to borrow a line from C. S. Lewis) a Poached Egg is, from this perspective, rather beside the point.

    Manifestation, megalomaniac, liberator, dictator, or poached egg? Like God (or the Idea of God), maybe all of the above, with at least 99 variations on the theme.

    Is there a Beautiful Name for Poached Egg? Maybe it’s “Baha.”

  • Andrew

    Actually, Bird, I was being Very Serious …

    I think the Myth of Baha’u’llah, not unlike the Myth of God Incarnate, is far more important than Baha’u’llah himself. Whether he really was the Manifestation of God or simply (to borrow a line from C. S. Lewis) a Poached Egg is, from this perspective, rather beside the point.

    Manifestation, megalomaniac, liberator, dictator, or poached egg? Like God (or the Idea of God), maybe all of the above, with at least 99 variations on the theme.

    Is there a Beautiful Name for Poached Egg? Maybe it’s “Baha.”

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]I think the Myth of Baha’u’llah, not unlike the Myth of God Incarnate, is far more important than Baha’u’llah himself. Whether he really was the Manifestation of God or simply (to borrow a line from C. S. Lewis) a Poached Egg is, from this perspective, rather beside the point.
    [/quote]

    Amen Andrew. The myth is what matters, for better or for worse.

  • http://kaweah.com/blog Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]I think the Myth of Baha’u’llah, not unlike the Myth of God Incarnate, is far more important than Baha’u’llah himself. Whether he really was the Manifestation of God or simply (to borrow a line from C. S. Lewis) a Poached Egg is, from this perspective, rather beside the point.
    [/quote]

    Amen Andrew. The myth is what matters, for better or for worse.

  • Bird

    Andrew I always take you serious and I smiled because I agree completely. It’s all about the myth isn’t it really. Myths are not as fun as putting faces to things. We humans must complicate everything we touch and see.

  • Bird

    Andrew I always take you serious and I smiled because I agree completely. It’s all about the myth isn’t it really. Myths are not as fun as putting faces to things. We humans must complicate everything we touch and see.

  • Bird

    A beautiful name for a poached egg is Benedict ;)

  • Bird

    A beautiful name for a poached egg is Benedict ;)

  • Andrew

    “Andrew I always take you serious”

    Thanks Bird. But when I’m mischievous the True Believers think I’m serious and when I’m serious the skeptics think I’m mischievous. My more outrageous comments always seem to have their intended effect: fish float to the surface after the blast. If you don’t want to wait ten years or so to sort the chaff from the chaff, it can be a useful strategy. The true Enemies of (the) Faith are always its most fervent adherents, but they’re often too convinced of their own righteousness to notice, damn the consequences.

    The most cogent advice for the Baha’i Faith comes from one of its critics:

    http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2008/10/more-bahai.html

    “So I suppose that, in adjusting my picture of the Bah??’?­ Faith, whilst the UHJ is the bigger strand, it is full of contradictions that come from its obsessive control of membership in an Administrative Order, and its failures regarding its own adopted prophetic projections (no Great Peace, doesn’t recruit as expected, losing a philosophical connection with advancing religious ideas elsewhere). The UHJ as it is will most likely produce a rather a tiny, failing religion, simply because people will leave either as ejected dissidents or via administrative boredom – and yet one with a future that might expand more organically outside of that frustrated core. In any case, it simply does not have the sheer intellectual and grounded resources that are available within Christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, in the sense of development and it is missing a trick in not building them organically.

    “How could it be different? The Faith could just let be. The texts were produced from Bah??’u’ll??h and `Abdu’l-Bah??, and that they are a value in themselves: they have clearly a strong spiritual impact, they represent a transition and a time and place even if they date quickly. So do all scriptures in Faiths (except where they are deliberately philosophical and abstract) and they become understood and used in various ways. To be a Bah??’?­ could be just a preference to use these scriptures and have Firesides and Feasts with a serving administration more transparent than the current layered-democratic centralism; perhaps, instead, a limited International Spiritual Assembly. Certainly there should be no censorship. It looks like, to me as an outsider, that the transition of 1957 to 1963 could be the Faith’s long term undoing, and that it forgot about modesty and humility: but the seeds of such a bureaucratic approach of power was set by the first and only Guardian and possibly earlier during the First World War.”

    “The Faith could just let be.” Wow! What a concept! No enforced uniformity in religion; no rationalization, pressure, or control of dissenters, demanding total loyalty and devotion; no harassment of sexual minorities or sermons on purity; no threats of disenrollment; no indignant defenses of plaster saints, no assertions that persons and institutions are beyond criticism, etc. No “good luck, retards.”

    But the reactive automatons need to have their frail sense of self reinforced: it is their Prime Directive to be as self-delusional as possible. Institutional insanity is always its own reward, and anything else is An Attack Against The Faith, for which an apology is due (never mind that the Faith continues to castigate and denigrate, that’s beside the point). I can hear the sound of a very tiny violin playing somewhere in the far distance, and “peace, peace, where there is no peace,” for there is no peace without justice, and there is no authentic justice in the Administrative Order in Haifa; only an unreasonable facsimile thereof, as many of the unenrolled can attest to. What an utter waste of time, talent, resources, and potential. Some tragedies are so staggering that one can be forgiven for thinking that they must be masquerading as comedies. Cue the tiny violins.

    “We humans must complicate everything we touch and see.” Oh, God, yes.

  • Andrew

    “Andrew I always take you serious”

    Thanks Bird. But when I’m mischievous the True Believers think I’m serious and when I’m serious the skeptics think I’m mischievous. My more outrageous comments always seem to have their intended effect: fish float to the surface after the blast. If you don’t want to wait ten years or so to sort the chaff from the chaff, it can be a useful strategy. The true Enemies of (the) Faith are always its most fervent adherents, but they’re often too convinced of their own righteousness to notice, damn the consequences.

    The most cogent advice for the Baha’i Faith comes from one of its critics:

    http://pluralistspeaks.blogspot.com/2008/10/more-bahai.html

    “So I suppose that, in adjusting my picture of the Bah??’?­ Faith, whilst the UHJ is the bigger strand, it is full of contradictions that come from its obsessive control of membership in an Administrative Order, and its failures regarding its own adopted prophetic projections (no Great Peace, doesn’t recruit as expected, losing a philosophical connection with advancing religious ideas elsewhere). The UHJ as it is will most likely produce a rather a tiny, failing religion, simply because people will leave either as ejected dissidents or via administrative boredom – and yet one with a future that might expand more organically outside of that frustrated core. In any case, it simply does not have the sheer intellectual and grounded resources that are available within Christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, in the sense of development and it is missing a trick in not building them organically.

    “How could it be different? The Faith could just let be. The texts were produced from Bah??’u’ll??h and `Abdu’l-Bah??, and that they are a value in themselves: they have clearly a strong spiritual impact, they represent a transition and a time and place even if they date quickly. So do all scriptures in Faiths (except where they are deliberately philosophical and abstract) and they become understood and used in various ways. To be a Bah??’?­ could be just a preference to use these scriptures and have Firesides and Feasts with a serving administration more transparent than the current layered-democratic centralism; perhaps, instead, a limited International Spiritual Assembly. Certainly there should be no censorship. It looks like, to me as an outsider, that the transition of 1957 to 1963 could be the Faith’s long term undoing, and that it forgot about modesty and humility: but the seeds of such a bureaucratic approach of power was set by the first and only Guardian and possibly earlier during the First World War.”

    “The Faith could just let be.” Wow! What a concept! No enforced uniformity in religion; no rationalization, pressure, or control of dissenters, demanding total loyalty and devotion; no harassment of sexual minorities or sermons on purity; no threats of disenrollment; no indignant defenses of plaster saints, no assertions that persons and institutions are beyond criticism, etc. No “good luck, retards.”

    But the reactive automatons need to have their frail sense of self reinforced: it is their Prime Directive to be as self-delusional as possible. Institutional insanity is always its own reward, and anything else is An Attack Against The Faith, for which an apology is due (never mind that the Faith continues to castigate and denigrate, that’s beside the point). I can hear the sound of a very tiny violin playing somewhere in the far distance, and “peace, peace, where there is no peace,” for there is no peace without justice, and there is no authentic justice in the Administrative Order in Haifa; only an unreasonable facsimile thereof, as many of the unenrolled can attest to. What an utter waste of time, talent, resources, and potential. Some tragedies are so staggering that one can be forgiven for thinking that they must be masquerading as comedies. Cue the tiny violins.

    “We humans must complicate everything we touch and see.” Oh, God, yes.

  • Bird

    Andrew- Lucky for me I take each day and each comment one at a time.

    â€?It looks like, to me as an outsider, that the transition of 1957 to 1963 could be the Faith’s long term undoing, and that it forgot about modesty and humility: but the seeds of such a bureaucratic approach of power was set by the first and only Guardian and possibly earlier during the First World War.”

    I read the blog from the Pluralist but I believe that going back further to the transition in 1921 was a catalyst to undoing of what may or may not be the Bah?’?­ movement. Ruth White really executed what the independent investigation taught to her by Abdul Baha as well as her mother country of the US truly is. With three continents by boat, photocopies made in the 1920’s, leading handwriting expert, all at her own expense, pursuing the truth to the depths of hell; an amazing feat of her time. Then to have the professional sophistication level and integrity of her findings to permanently document all her investigation in it’s original entirety with the Library of Congress; I am in awe of her ability, stamina and determination to pursue the truth. Ruth White is hero indeed; the worlds need more people like her. To Ruth! (Toasting my coffee cup)

    “The Faith could just let be.” Wow! What a concept! No enforced uniformity in religion; no rationalization, pressure, or control of dissenters, demanding total loyalty and devotion; no harassment of sexual minorities or sermons on purity; no threats of disenrollment; no indignant defenses of plaster saints, no assertions that persons and institutions are beyond criticism, etc. No “good luck, retards.”

    Wouldn’t it be great if everything religion or words of the �myths� of a God could just let be for independent investigation and self application? That �labels� all go away, vanish into the thin air they came from? And if not at a least regulate them with warning labels such as: �There is nothing inherently virtuous or progressive about possessing and corralling brain power.� ;)

    Yesterday was the 30th anniversary to the Jonestown Massacre, may their souls rest in peace, guiding love and mercy cradled within the heart of �myth� called God. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSRKWb4LO3w (Jonestown Massacre footage)

  • Bird

    Andrew- Lucky for me I take each day and each comment one at a time.

    â€?It looks like, to me as an outsider, that the transition of 1957 to 1963 could be the Faith’s long term undoing, and that it forgot about modesty and humility: but the seeds of such a bureaucratic approach of power was set by the first and only Guardian and possibly earlier during the First World War.”

    I read the blog from the Pluralist but I believe that going back further to the transition in 1921 was a catalyst to undoing of what may or may not be the Bah?’?­ movement. Ruth White really executed what the independent investigation taught to her by Abdul Baha as well as her mother country of the US truly is. With three continents by boat, photocopies made in the 1920’s, leading handwriting expert, all at her own expense, pursuing the truth to the depths of hell; an amazing feat of her time. Then to have the professional sophistication level and integrity of her findings to permanently document all her investigation in it’s original entirety with the Library of Congress; I am in awe of her ability, stamina and determination to pursue the truth. Ruth White is hero indeed; the worlds need more people like her. To Ruth! (Toasting my coffee cup)

    “The Faith could just let be.” Wow! What a concept! No enforced uniformity in religion; no rationalization, pressure, or control of dissenters, demanding total loyalty and devotion; no harassment of sexual minorities or sermons on purity; no threats of disenrollment; no indignant defenses of plaster saints, no assertions that persons and institutions are beyond criticism, etc. No “good luck, retards.”

    Wouldn’t it be great if everything religion or words of the �myths� of a God could just let be for independent investigation and self application? That �labels� all go away, vanish into the thin air they came from? And if not at a least regulate them with warning labels such as: �There is nothing inherently virtuous or progressive about possessing and corralling brain power.� ;)

    Yesterday was the 30th anniversary to the Jonestown Massacre, may their souls rest in peace, guiding love and mercy cradled within the heart of �myth� called God. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSRKWb4LO3w (Jonestown Massacre footage)

  • Andrew

    In defense of the Guardian … as Garlington points out in his book, “The Baha’i Faith in America,” an Egyptian law court concluded in May, 1925 (after hearing a divorce case involving Baha’is and their Muslim wives) that because of its unique laws and institutions, the Baha’i Faith could not be considered part of Islam, and that it also constituted its own particular religious identity. Moreover, Shoghi Effendi simply implemented many of ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s own strategies and directives for expanding the Baha’i Faith throughout the world. Thus did I come to the conclusion that if one disputes the legitimacy of the Guardianship, one also disputes the authority of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, which would lead one to the position of the Unitarian Baha’is under the leadership of Muhammad-Ali Effendi. Here is their (?) website:

    http://unitarianbahai.angelfire.com/

    “The leadership of the Unitarian Baha’is is the Supreme Council of Justice, which is headed by a WOMAN as President, the direct descendant of Baha’u’llah.”

    Could this be Negar Bahai Amsalem? She seems nice.

    Their position seems roughly analogous to the back-to-Jesus movement, which posits a Christianity without Peter and Paul. Is it possible to have a Baha’i Faith without ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi? I guess it might be, but it would be a very truncated version of the Faith. All those translations by Shoghi Effendi would be rendered suspect, if not completely rejected. It seems like a rather tenuous position to occupy, even for someone as liminal in faith as myself. It is one thing to be peripatetic, it is quite another thing to be reeling drunk.

    As for the Jonestown Massacre: were the believers merely following their own conscience? No, they weren’t. They were held prisoner once they arrived in Jonestown. Most of them wanted to leave, but simply couldn’t. No question of conscience there.

    Oh, and Baha’i doorknockers? Doorknocking is the last refuge of a religious scoundrel. If some of its attitudes and actions have raised the suspicion in many minds that the Baha’i Faith (as it is currently constituted) is a cult-like country club, its doorknocking activity should remove any doubt whatsoever in that regard. Joho’s, Mormons, and now Baha’is. Tragic. Utterly tragic.

  • Andrew

    In defense of the Guardian … as Garlington points out in his book, “The Baha’i Faith in America,” an Egyptian law court concluded in May, 1925 (after hearing a divorce case involving Baha’is and their Muslim wives) that because of its unique laws and institutions, the Baha’i Faith could not be considered part of Islam, and that it also constituted its own particular religious identity. Moreover, Shoghi Effendi simply implemented many of ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s own strategies and directives for expanding the Baha’i Faith throughout the world. Thus did I come to the conclusion that if one disputes the legitimacy of the Guardianship, one also disputes the authority of ‘Abdu’l-Baha, which would lead one to the position of the Unitarian Baha’is under the leadership of Muhammad-Ali Effendi. Here is their (?) website:

    http://unitarianbahai.angelfire.com/

    “The leadership of the Unitarian Baha’is is the Supreme Council of Justice, which is headed by a WOMAN as President, the direct descendant of Baha’u’llah.”

    Could this be Negar Bahai Amsalem? She seems nice.

    Their position seems roughly analogous to the back-to-Jesus movement, which posits a Christianity without Peter and Paul. Is it possible to have a Baha’i Faith without ‘Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi? I guess it might be, but it would be a very truncated version of the Faith. All those translations by Shoghi Effendi would be rendered suspect, if not completely rejected. It seems like a rather tenuous position to occupy, even for someone as liminal in faith as myself. It is one thing to be peripatetic, it is quite another thing to be reeling drunk.

    As for the Jonestown Massacre: were the believers merely following their own conscience? No, they weren’t. They were held prisoner once they arrived in Jonestown. Most of them wanted to leave, but simply couldn’t. No question of conscience there.

    Oh, and Baha’i doorknockers? Doorknocking is the last refuge of a religious scoundrel. If some of its attitudes and actions have raised the suspicion in many minds that the Baha’i Faith (as it is currently constituted) is a cult-like country club, its doorknocking activity should remove any doubt whatsoever in that regard. Joho’s, Mormons, and now Baha’is. Tragic. Utterly tragic.

  • Bird

    Andrew,

    â€?In defense of the Guardian … Thus did I come to the conclusion that if one disputes the legitimacy of the Guardianship, one also disputes the authority of ‘Abdu’l-Baha…â€?

    Well I do believe that there is no reference of a term to a successor called the â€?Guardianâ€? written by Baha’u’llah, and the only time it is used in any of the published documents of Abdul’Baha is solely in the reference to a successor in the LWT. The term â€?Guardianâ€? popped up for the first time there that is unless you are aware of a reference prior to it. Try locating the term “Administrative Order” by either Baha’u’llah or Abdul Baha.

    Where indeed Shoghi Effendi was able to fulfill a global movement of his grandfathers message, his status elevated by the term â€?Guardianâ€? bestowed upon him in the LWT did create an â€?infallibleâ€? papacy that laid the foundation to build a palace to house the elite while also designating and spiritually euthanized all blood lineage as CB’s for eternity. Inevitably there have and will continue to maintain series of splits over the last 80+ years and many more to come for this wonderful group of people that call themselves â€?Bah?’?­â€?.

    It is all quite an interesting saga, the M?­rz?? ?usayn-`Al?­ Nuri family, certainly not something you read about every day unless you go looking for it, that it until they knock on your door. The core message is a pleasant re-cap of many sages of the worlds history of unfolding ideas. It’s a shame such a label as â€?Bah?’?­â€? made it’s way out of it, follower of M?­rz?? ?usayn-`Al?­ Nuri, instead of â€?World Citizenâ€? or something a little more along the lines of the re-capped messages… I believe that there are teaching in the BF about focusing on the message rather then the messenger itself but that concept went out the window with the creation of the term â€?Bah?’?­â€?.

    I absolutely believe that any LWT of any individual that is altered becomes criminally tainted. If you read the hand writing expert’s report published in the LOC by RW, no part of the LWT detected any characteristics of actual specimens of Abdul Baha’s handwriting. Not one. Pretty interesting if you let your self think about it. Quite a saga indeed, I’m at the edge of my seat waiting to see what is next. Auto enrollments, that’s a hoot.

    May the myth called God be with you always.

  • Bird

    Andrew,

    â€?In defense of the Guardian … Thus did I come to the conclusion that if one disputes the legitimacy of the Guardianship, one also disputes the authority of ‘Abdu’l-Baha…â€?

    Well I do believe that there is no reference of a term to a successor called the â€?Guardianâ€? written by Baha’u’llah, and the only time it is used in any of the published documents of Abdul’Baha is solely in the reference to a successor in the LWT. The term â€?Guardianâ€? popped up for the first time there that is unless you are aware of a reference prior to it. Try locating the term “Administrative Order” by either Baha’u’llah or Abdul Baha.

    Where indeed Shoghi Effendi was able to fulfill a global movement of his grandfathers message, his status elevated by the term â€?Guardianâ€? bestowed upon him in the LWT did create an â€?infallibleâ€? papacy that laid the foundation to build a palace to house the elite while also designating and spiritually euthanized all blood lineage as CB’s for eternity. Inevitably there have and will continue to maintain series of splits over the last 80+ years and many more to come for this wonderful group of people that call themselves â€?Bah?’?­â€?.

    It is all quite an interesting saga, the M?­rz?? ?usayn-`Al?­ Nuri family, certainly not something you read about every day unless you go looking for it, that it until they knock on your door. The core message is a pleasant re-cap of many sages of the worlds history of unfolding ideas. It’s a shame such a label as â€?Bah?’?­â€? made it’s way out of it, follower of M?­rz?? ?usayn-`Al?­ Nuri, instead of â€?World Citizenâ€? or something a little more along the lines of the re-capped messages… I believe that there are teaching in the BF about focusing on the message rather then the messenger itself but that concept went out the window with the creation of the term â€?Bah?’?­â€?.

    I absolutely believe that any LWT of any individual that is altered becomes criminally tainted. If you read the hand writing expert’s report published in the LOC by RW, no part of the LWT detected any characteristics of actual specimens of Abdul Baha’s handwriting. Not one. Pretty interesting if you let your self think about it. Quite a saga indeed, I’m at the edge of my seat waiting to see what is next. Auto enrollments, that’s a hoot.

    May the myth called God be with you always.

  • http://blog.kaweah.com Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Andrew,

    â€?Thus did I come to the conclusion that if one disputes the legitimacy of the Guardianship, one also disputes the authority of ‘Abdu’l-Baha…â€?[/quote]

    Authority? Authority is ours to delegate. Shoghi Effendi did his best, or close enough, but he was clearly lacking in interpersonal graces, he delighted in bureaucracy as much as any Stalinist, and he was a rank homophobe. Still, I feel for the guy, even if he did have the LWT forged. We all do foolish things in our youth. He had a tough job to do, and he stuck to it … nearly.

    It’s easy to imagine the Baha’i Faith before the death of `Abdu’l-Baha’. Though it wasn’t perfect, at least it resembled a religion more than an administration. Imagine how much nicer a guy `Abdu’l-Baha’ would have seemed without that dreary and hateful LWT tied to his name!

  • http://blog.kaweah.com Dan Jensen

    [quote comment=""]Andrew,

    â€?Thus did I come to the conclusion that if one disputes the legitimacy of the Guardianship, one also disputes the authority of ‘Abdu’l-Baha…â€?[/quote]

    Authority? Authority is ours to delegate. Shoghi Effendi did his best, or close enough, but he was clearly lacking in interpersonal graces, he delighted in bureaucracy as much as any Stalinist, and he was a rank homophobe. Still, I feel for the guy, even if he did have the LWT forged. We all do foolish things in our youth. He had a tough job to do, and he stuck to it … nearly.

    It’s easy to imagine the Baha’i Faith before the death of `Abdu’l-Baha’. Though it wasn’t perfect, at least it resembled a religion more than an administration. Imagine how much nicer a guy `Abdu’l-Baha’ would have seemed without that dreary and hateful LWT tied to his name!

  • Andrew

    Bird writes:

    “If you read the hand writing expert’s report published in the LOC by RW, no part of the LWT detected any characteristics of actual specimens of Abdul Baha’s handwriting.”

    But was he an expert in Farsi language script? Ah, there’s the rub.

    Dan Jensen writes:

    “Authority is ours to delegate.”

    Who, exactly, is this “ours”? And how do “we” delegate it? Once we find out who this “ours” is, are we also able to find out which procedure (if any) “we” use to delegate it?

    You do, of course, have a point: “we” delegate authority all the time: “we” delegate it to Adolf Hitler, to Josef Stalin, to the Ayatollahs, etc. Without “our” support, what “authority” would “they” hold, let alone exercise? The blood of innocents is as much on our hands as on theirs.

  • Andrew

    Bird writes:

    “If you read the hand writing expert’s report published in the LOC by RW, no part of the LWT detected any characteristics of actual specimens of Abdul Baha’s handwriting.”

    But was he an expert in Farsi language script? Ah, there’s the rub.

    Dan Jensen writes:

    “Authority is ours to delegate.”

    Who, exactly, is this “ours”? And how do “we” delegate it? Once we find out who this “ours” is, are we also able to find out which procedure (if any) “we” use to delegate it?

    You do, of course, have a point: “we” delegate authority all the time: “we” delegate it to Adolf Hitler, to Josef Stalin, to the Ayatollahs, etc. Without “our” support, what “authority” would “they” hold, let alone exercise? The blood of innocents is as much on our hands as on theirs.

  • Bird

    Andrew

    “But was he an expert in Farsi language script? Ah, there’s the rub.?

    They never let him inspect the original document. Once you start hiding something there is a probabity there something to hide. And when you compare my swirly scribbles to yours on the same paper, do you think an “expert” can tell our different scribbles. There have been lies and more lies.

  • Bird

    Andrew

    “But was he an expert in Farsi language script? Ah, there’s the rub.?

    They never let him inspect the original document. Once you start hiding something there is a probabity there something to hide. And when you compare my swirly scribbles to yours on the same paper, do you think an “expert” can tell our different scribbles. There have been lies and more lies.

  • Andrew

    [quote]They never let him inspect the original document. Once you start hiding something there is a probabity there something to hide. And when you compare my swirly scribbles to yours on the same paper, do you think an “expert” can tell our different scribbles. There have been lies and more lies.[/quote]

    There is always the argument that he had no business attempting to analyze the handwriting of an original document to which he had no access. Any conclusions derived therefrom would be doubtful at best.

    Farsi script is a complex cursive script, but it is not synonymous with swirly scribbles. But if an “expert” cannot tell our different scribbles apart, why bother consulting one in the first place?

    Let us concede for the sake of argument that you are correct: the LWT is a manifest fraud. If that is the case, what was to prevent these perpetrators of fraud from committing even more fraud? Shoghi Effendi died intestate; why not manufacture another fraudulent will? Why not adopt a child, issue him with a false birth certificate, and impose an identity on him? There is no end to the conspiracy theories.

    Was Shoghi Effendi a rank homophobe? I used to think so until I read the observations by Sen and Sonja on the production of letters by an army of anonymous secretaries. Most people in similar positions to his at the time were not a little homophobic (not that this excuses current Baha’i actions and invective against so-called practicing homosexuals; on the contrary, it makes it even more egregious). But Shoghi Effendi never claimed to be inerrant, did he?

    [quote]There have been lies and more lies.[/quote]

    I would say that there *are* lies and more lies, and that these lies are enabled by others, notably Baha’is who fail to speak up because they fear reprisals. For example, in his book “Alain Locke: Faith and Philosophy,” Christopher Buck writes (p. 197): “As a lifestyle, homosexuality stands in conflict with received Baha’i values, both then and now.” Aside from the utter lack of definition around what constitutes “received Baha’i values” (a phrase which seems to hold about as much meaning as “da do ron ron”), the fact that a university professor refers to homosexuality as a “lifestyle” (in the sense that it’s something you “choose”) in a book about a Baha’i philosopher who happened to be homosexual reveals how abysmally entrenched systemic homophobia is within mainstream Baha’i culture, and how completely lacking in credibility any Baha’i arguments against it really are.

    Except, of course, among the aristocracy and royalty … I mean the true believers and apologists … who will insist that black is white and wrong is right if its suits their purposes, and will never be persuaded otherwise, unless they are instructed to do so by the authorities responsible for their programming.

    As long as these towers, temples and mosques
    are not deserted —
    So long the path of the Lord
    can never be attained.

    –Sachal Sarmast

  • Andrew

    [quote]They never let him inspect the original document. Once you start hiding something there is a probabity there something to hide. And when you compare my swirly scribbles to yours on the same paper, do you think an “expert” can tell our different scribbles. There have been lies and more lies.[/quote]

    There is always the argument that he had no business attempting to analyze the handwriting of an original document to which he had no access. Any conclusions derived therefrom would be doubtful at best.

    Farsi script is a complex cursive script, but it is not synonymous with swirly scribbles. But if an “expert” cannot tell our different scribbles apart, why bother consulting one in the first place?

    Let us concede for the sake of argument that you are correct: the LWT is a manifest fraud. If that is the case, what was to prevent these perpetrators of fraud from committing even more fraud? Shoghi Effendi died intestate; why not manufacture another fraudulent will? Why not adopt a child, issue him with a false birth certificate, and impose an identity on him? There is no end to the conspiracy theories.

    Was Shoghi Effendi a rank homophobe? I used to think so until I read the observations by Sen and Sonja on the production of letters by an army of anonymous secretaries. Most people in similar positions to his at the time were not a little homophobic (not that this excuses current Baha’i actions and invective against so-called practicing homosexuals; on the contrary, it makes it even more egregious). But Shoghi Effendi never claimed to be inerrant, did he?

    [quote]There have been lies and more lies.[/quote]

    I would say that there *are* lies and more lies, and that these lies are enabled by others, notably Baha’is who fail to speak up because they fear reprisals. For example, in his book “Alain Locke: Faith and Philosophy,” Christopher Buck writes (p. 197): “As a lifestyle, homosexuality stands in conflict with received Baha’i values, both then and now.” Aside from the utter lack of definition around what constitutes “received Baha’i values” (a phrase which seems to hold about as much meaning as “da do ron ron”), the fact that a university professor refers to homosexuality as a “lifestyle” (in the sense that it’s something you “choose”) in a book about a Baha’i philosopher who happened to be homosexual reveals how abysmally entrenched systemic homophobia is within mainstream Baha’i culture, and how completely lacking in credibility any Baha’i arguments against it really are.

    Except, of course, among the aristocracy and royalty … I mean the true believers and apologists … who will insist that black is white and wrong is right if its suits their purposes, and will never be persuaded otherwise, unless they are instructed to do so by the authorities responsible for their programming.

    As long as these towers, temples and mosques
    are not deserted —
    So long the path of the Lord
    can never be attained.

    –Sachal Sarmast

  • Andrew

    RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

    A wonderful new film that includes excerpts from the writings of ‘Abdu’l-Baha:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vBco4OOrYM

  • Andrew

    RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

    A wonderful new film that includes excerpts from the writings of ‘Abdu’l-Baha:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vBco4OOrYM

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="59346"]RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today:[/quote]

    “Today” was September 27, 2005, and the research being reported on was much less definitive than Ruth Gledhill’s breathless article might indicate.

    “An important thing to keep in mind whenever you read about social science research is to look closely at the way the variables are conceptualized by the researcher(s). Whether you find that research on religion supports or challenges your current assumptions, a central question is ‘What ‘religion’ are we talking about?'”
    What religion are we talking about?

    Here’s the decidedly non-sexy conclusion to the actual article:

    The United States’ deep social problems are all the more disturbing because the nation enjoys exceptional per capita wealth among the major western nations (Barro and McCleary; Kasman; PEW; UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). Spending on health care is much higher as a portion of the GDP and per capita, by a factor of a third to two or more, than in any other developed democracy (UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). The U.S. is therefore the least efficient western nation in terms of converting wealth into cultural and physical health. Understanding the reasons for this failure is urgent, and doing so requires considering the degree to which cause versus effect is responsible for the observed correlations between social conditions and religiosity versus secularism. It is therefore hoped that this initial look at a subject of pressing importance will inspire more extensive research on the subject. Pressing questions include the reasons, whether theistic or non-theistic, that the exceptionally wealthy U.S. is so inefficient that it is experiencing a much higher degree of societal distress than are less religious, less wealthy prosperous democracies. Conversely, how do the latter achieve superior societal health while having little in the way of the religious values or institutions? There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses.
    Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

    In other words, more research is needed. As you’d expect.

    There’s some interesting stuff coming out of the World Values Survey. Basically, there are a range of correlations between factors. One interesting one, heard on the radio yesterday morning is that “…religious people tend to be happier than non-religious people. This is true in most of the world, so, … I would say having a clear belief system, having faith is conducive to happiness too. And that’s something that seems to favour economic development.”

    “I think secularization is something that tends to go along with economic development, and rich countries clearly are happier – they tend be higher on happiness – so there’s this complicated, paradoxical relationship where economic development tends to go with secularisation, and thus secular people – secular countries – like Denmark or New Zealand are relatively high on happiness. But, within any given country, religious people tend to be happier. And when you control for income levels, the difference is even bigger.”

    ka kite
    Steve

  • http://bahaisonline.net/tcb Steve Marshall

    [quote comment="59346"]RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today:[/quote]

    “Today” was September 27, 2005, and the research being reported on was much less definitive than Ruth Gledhill’s breathless article might indicate.

    “An important thing to keep in mind whenever you read about social science research is to look closely at the way the variables are conceptualized by the researcher(s). Whether you find that research on religion supports or challenges your current assumptions, a central question is ‘What ‘religion’ are we talking about?'”
    What religion are we talking about?

    Here’s the decidedly non-sexy conclusion to the actual article:

    The United States’ deep social problems are all the more disturbing because the nation enjoys exceptional per capita wealth among the major western nations (Barro and McCleary; Kasman; PEW; UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). Spending on health care is much higher as a portion of the GDP and per capita, by a factor of a third to two or more, than in any other developed democracy (UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). The U.S. is therefore the least efficient western nation in terms of converting wealth into cultural and physical health. Understanding the reasons for this failure is urgent, and doing so requires considering the degree to which cause versus effect is responsible for the observed correlations between social conditions and religiosity versus secularism. It is therefore hoped that this initial look at a subject of pressing importance will inspire more extensive research on the subject. Pressing questions include the reasons, whether theistic or non-theistic, that the exceptionally wealthy U.S. is so inefficient that it is experiencing a much higher degree of societal distress than are less religious, less wealthy prosperous democracies. Conversely, how do the latter achieve superior societal health while having little in the way of the religious values or institutions? There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses.
    Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

    In other words, more research is needed. As you’d expect.

    There’s some interesting stuff coming out of the World Values Survey. Basically, there are a range of correlations between factors. One interesting one, heard on the radio yesterday morning is that “…religious people tend to be happier than non-religious people. This is true in most of the world, so, … I would say having a clear belief system, having faith is conducive to happiness too. And that’s something that seems to favour economic development.”

    “I think secularization is something that tends to go along with economic development, and rich countries clearly are happier – they tend be higher on happiness – so there’s this complicated, paradoxical relationship where economic development tends to go with secularisation, and thus secular people – secular countries – like Denmark or New Zealand are relatively high on happiness. But, within any given country, religious people tend to be happier. And when you control for income levels, the difference is even bigger.”

    ka kite
    Steve

  • Andrew

    “But, within any given country, religious people tend to be happier. And when you control for income levels, the difference is even bigger.”

    This sounds so much more definitive! Of course, whether or not it’s true is another matter altogether: probably more research is needed. After all, the followers of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon could hardly be characterized as “unhappy,” could they?

    Interestingly, as Dr. Michael Nielsen has reported, “A study by Argyle and Hills (2000) found a modest negative correlation between mysticism and happiness, meaning that people who had mystical experiences also tended to report lower levels of happiness.” And in the Christian tradition, there is much talk of joy and sorrow being intertwined: you can’t have one without the other. Orthodox monastics cultivate a state known as charmolypi, joy-sorrow: tears for the woes of the world, and gratitude for God’s mercy.

    But that’s a bit difficult to sell as a door-knocker these days. ;-)

  • Andrew

    “But, within any given country, religious people tend to be happier. And when you control for income levels, the difference is even bigger.”

    This sounds so much more definitive! Of course, whether or not it’s true is another matter altogether: probably more research is needed. After all, the followers of the Rev. Sun Myung Moon could hardly be characterized as “unhappy,” could they?

    Interestingly, as Dr. Michael Nielsen has reported, “A study by Argyle and Hills (2000) found a modest negative correlation between mysticism and happiness, meaning that people who had mystical experiences also tended to report lower levels of happiness.” And in the Christian tradition, there is much talk of joy and sorrow being intertwined: you can’t have one without the other. Orthodox monastics cultivate a state known as charmolypi, joy-sorrow: tears for the woes of the world, and gratitude for God’s mercy.

    But that’s a bit difficult to sell as a door-knocker these days. ;-)